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Polystyrene: The Wonder Material

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UK and Europe
Published
17 May 2004
Last activity
18 May 2004
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Just Zis Guy
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  1. From BikeBiz bikebiz.co.ukarticle.php

    Polystyrene: the wonder material that can deflect speeding
    juggernauts

    Bicycle helmet manufacturers are careful not to over-state
    the protective abilities of their wares. But politicians,
    newspaper headline writers and, it seems, police officers,
    appear to believe polystyrene lids are effective in the
    sort of smashes nothing less than Volvo-type steel roll-
    cages would be of use. According to the Hull Daily Mail, a
    cycling lollipop lady in Hull died not only because she was
    ran down by a cement mixer but because she wasn't wearing a
    bicycle helmet...

    Hull Daily Mail reporter Alistair Houghton wrote a piece in
    yesterday's paper that was headlined 'A helmet could have
    saved her', referring to an inquest into the death of Irene
    Dorley who was killed when she was hit by a cement mixer
    last September.

    Houghton based his report on a comment from PC Anthony
    Wilson who is alleged to have said "If a cycle helmet had
    been worn, her injuries may not have been as severe."

    David Bayliss, the driver of the cement mixer, told police:

    "I don't understand how I didn't see her."

    The inquest coroner recorded a verdict of accidental death.

    In the recent helmet compulsion debate in the House of
    Commons, many MPs reported that children who died from
    chest injuries, could have been saved had they been wearing
    cycle helmets.

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
    posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.uk

    Victory is ours! Down with Eric the Half A Brain!

  2. you know? said:

    From BikeBiz bikebiz.co.ukdaily
    news/article.php?id=4101

    Polystyrene: the wonder material that can deflect speeding
    juggernauts

    I was reading some website the other day, I think it might
    have been part of the BBC's web, and it had a section of
    what to wear when cycling. Helmets weren't overly promoted
    and when mentioning them it had some line like, 'helmets are
    made out of polystyrene, the same material as some drinks
    cups'. I thought it nicely suggested their limitations
    without being overtly negative.

    Colin

  3. "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Hull Daily Mail reporter Alistair Houghton wrote a piece
    in yesterday's paper that was headlined 'A helmet could
    have saved her', referring to an inquest into the death of
    Irene Dorley who was killed when she was hit by


    a

    Quoted message said:

    cement mixer last September.

    They should have used the later " *would* have saved
    her" headline.

    --
    Simon M.

  4. Just zis Guy said:

    From BikeBiz bikebiz.co.ukdaily
    news/article.php?id=4101

    Polystyrene: the wonder material that can deflect speeding
    juggernauts

    Bicycle helmet manufacturers are careful not to over-state
    the protective abilities of their wares. But politicians,
    newspaper headline writers and, it seems, police officers,
    appear to believe polystyrene lids are effective in the
    sort of smashes nothing less than Volvo-type steel roll-
    cages would be of use. According to the Hull Daily Mail, a
    cycling lollipop lady in Hull died not only because she
    was ran down by a cement mixer but because she wasn't
    wearing a bicycle helmet...

    Hull Daily Mail reporter Alistair Houghton wrote a piece
    in yesterday's paper that was headlined 'A helmet could
    have saved her', referring to an inquest into the death of
    Irene Dorley who was killed when she was hit by a cement
    mixer last September.

    Houghton based his report on a comment from PC Anthony
    Wilson who is alleged to have said "If a cycle helmet had
    been worn, her injuries may not have been as severe."

    David Bayliss, the driver of the cement mixer, told
    police:

    "I don't understand how I didn't see her."

    The inquest coroner recorded a verdict of accidental
    death.

    In the recent helmet compulsion debate in the House of
    Commons, many MPs reported that children who died from
    chest injuries, could have been saved had they been
    wearing cycle helmets.

    I presume this PC is a world-expert on such matters as
    helmet safety and how they work, what their limitations are.
    If not, then the coroner should not have taken his advise.

  5. "Pete whelan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Just zis Guy said:

    From BikeBiz bikebiz.co.ukdaily
    news/article.php?id=4101

    Polystyrene: the wonder material that can deflect
    speeding juggernauts

    Bicycle helmet manufacturers are careful not to over-
    state the


    protective

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    abilities of their wares. But politicians, newspaper
    headline writers


    and,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    it seems, police officers, appear to believe polystyrene
    lids are


    effective

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    in the sort of smashes nothing less than Volvo-type
    steel roll-cages


    would

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    be of use. According to the Hull Daily Mail, a cycling
    lollipop lady in


    Hull

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    died not only because she was ran down by a cement mixer
    but because she wasn't wearing a bicycle helmet...

    Hull Daily Mail reporter Alistair Houghton wrote a piece
    in yesterday's paper that was headlined 'A helmet could
    have saved her', referring to


    an

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    inquest into the death of Irene Dorley who was killed
    when she was hit


    by a

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    cement mixer last September.

    Houghton based his report on a comment from PC Anthony
    Wilson who is


    alleged

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    to have said "If a cycle helmet had been worn, her
    injuries may not have been as severe."

    David Bayliss, the driver of the cement mixer, told
    police:

    "I don't understand how I didn't see her."

    The inquest coroner recorded a verdict of accidental
    death.

    In the recent helmet compulsion debate in the House of
    Commons, many MPs reported that children who died from
    chest injuries, could have been


    saved

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    had they been wearing cycle helmets.

    I presume this PC is a world-expert on such matters as
    helmet safety and how they work, what their
    limitations are. If not, then the coroner should not
    have taken his advise.


    I've always been convinced that my helmet would protect me
    against cement mixers. Glad to have been proved right.

    Peter

  6. "Pete whelan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Just zis Guy said:

    From BikeBiz bikebiz.co.ukdaily
    news/article.php?id=4101

    Polystyrene: the wonder material that can deflect
    speeding juggernauts

    Bicycle helmet manufacturers are careful not to over-
    state the


    protective

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    abilities of their wares. But politicians, newspaper
    headline writers


    and,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    it seems, police officers, appear to believe polystyrene
    lids are


    effective

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    in the sort of smashes nothing less than Volvo-type
    steel roll-cages


    would

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    be of use. According to the Hull Daily Mail, a cycling
    lollipop lady in


    Hull

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    died not only because she was ran down by a cement mixer
    but because she wasn't wearing a bicycle helmet...

    Hull Daily Mail reporter Alistair Houghton wrote a piece
    in yesterday's paper that was headlined 'A helmet could
    have saved her', referring to


    an

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    inquest into the death of Irene Dorley who was killed
    when she was hit


    by a

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    cement mixer last September.

    Houghton based his report on a comment from PC Anthony
    Wilson who is


    alleged

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    to have said "If a cycle helmet had been worn, her
    injuries may not have been as severe."

    David Bayliss, the driver of the cement mixer, told
    police:

    "I don't understand how I didn't see her."

    The inquest coroner recorded a verdict of accidental
    death.

    In the recent helmet compulsion debate in the House of
    Commons, many MPs reported that children who died from
    chest injuries, could have been


    saved

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    had they been wearing cycle helmets.

    I presume this PC is a world-expert on such matters as
    helmet safety and how they work, what their
    limitations are. If not, then the coroner should not
    have taken his advise.


    I've always been convinced that my helmet would protect me
    against cement mixers. Glad to have been proved right.

    Peter

  7. "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Hull Daily Mail reporter Alistair Houghton wrote a piece
    in yesterday's paper that was headlined 'A helmet could
    have saved her', referring to an inquest into the death of
    Irene Dorley who was killed when she was hit by


    a

    Quoted message said:

    cement mixer last September.

    However could the dimwit arrive at that conclusion?

    Unless of course he has studied the mechanics of protective
    wear, carried out a post-mortem on the disceased, is skilled
    in accident investigation techniques etc., etc.

    --
    Regards, Pete

  8. Colin Blackburn said:

    I was reading some website the other day, I think it might
    have been part of the BBC's web, and it had a section of
    what to wear when cycling. Helmets weren't overly promoted
    and when mentioning them it had some line like, 'helmets
    are made out of polystyrene, the same material as some
    drinks cups'. I thought it nicely suggested their
    limitations without being overtly negative.

    "Warning, contents may be lukewarm"

    Tim

  9. "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    From BikeBiz bikebiz.co.ukdaily
    news/article.php?id=4101

    Polystyrene: the wonder material that can deflect speeding
    juggernauts

    Bicycle helmet manufacturers are careful not to over-state
    the protective abilities of their wares. But politicians,
    newspaper headline writers and, it seems, police officers,
    appear to believe polystyrene lids are


    effective

    Quoted message said:

    in the sort of smashes nothing less than Volvo-type steel
    roll-cages would be of use. According to the Hull Daily
    Mail, a cycling lollipop lady in


    Hull

    Quoted message said:

    died not only because she was ran down by a cement mixer
    but because she wasn't wearing a bicycle helmet...

    Hmm...I do not get it, maybe you know more details about
    this than I do. Is it not quite possible that a helmet might
    have saved her, if she was not run over by the cement mixer,
    but just knocked down?

    Tapio

  10. Quoted post said:

    posted by Tapio Kohonen
    [B
    Hmm...I do not get it, maybe you know more details about
    this than I do. Is it not quite possible that a helmet might
    have saved her, if she was not run over by the cement mixer,
    but just knocked down?

    Tapio [/B]

    Yeah Tapio, perhaps it might be possible and indeed it is conceivable that (insert here whatever you are motivated to believe or wish to be the case). You could similarly argue that (within some bounds) anything is possible if it's conceivable - but for one thing there's an expectation shared by some of us that newspaper headlines shouldn't be at the mercy of hijackers who want to inflict and infect others with their pet beliefs. Those of us who take issue with this have an expectation that journalistic reporting should try to stick to reporting facts, impartially and with balance (admittedly that's a rather hopeful expectation) rather than using its ability to influence in aid of championing its own pet cause.

    As other posters have pointed out (on another thread) there's a gap between what can be considered possible (which is speculative) and what is empirically probable (i.e. based on evidence and knowledge). Many of us prefer rigorous reasoning and the standards of science rather than the anxiety alleviating comfort that is afforded in the wishful thinking of what might be possible.

    If there's any reluctance to acknowledge that "it is possible that..." then this reticence is, I would suggest, in response to the tendency, typical of some, to turn what's only possible into something that is clearly not.

    Roger

  11. Quoted message said:

    Hmm...I do not get it, maybe you know more details about
    this than I do. Is it not quite possible that a helmet
    might have saved her, if she was not run over by the
    cement mixer, but just knocked down?

    Tapio

    1) The ability of a cycle helmet to absorb impacts is
    very limited. They are designed to absorb a 12.5 MPH
    impact onto a flat surface -about 14 MPH for the
    highest rated helmets. These sort of impacts very
    rarely lead to a fatality.

    2) In high impacts helmets tend to fail catastrophically,
    rather then absorbing a significant proportion of the
    overall impact.

    3) If she just fell from her cycle she would have been most
    unlikely to suffer a fatal head injury.

    4) Whatever the individual circumstances of this case it was
    wrong to place more emphasis on what the victim might or
    might have not done then the negligent behaviour of the
    driver who killed her.

    5) The 'Would have saved her' and 'a helmet could have saved
    her' headlines were simply made up by the 'journalist'
    involved. No actually made such a claim.

    6) This sort of victim blaming would not be done if the
    victim was another driver. Imagine the outcry if a court
    made more of the fact that a motorist drove a car that
    was not fitted with airbags then the fact they were hit
    and killed by a negligent lorry driver. Similarly,
    imagine the outcry if the perceived 'solution' to
    'pavement cycling' was to argue that pedestrians should
    wear helmets and any who did not and were hit by a
    cyclist were negligent and at least as much to blame as a
    law breaking cyclist!

    7) This issue has been tested in the high court and it was
    accepted that it is not possible to claim that a helmet
    could have reduced serious head injuries. To quote Edward
    Leigh, Conservative MP, quoted in Hansard, following the
    April 23rd debate on Eric Martlew MP's helmet bill.

    "[Helmet expert] Brian Walker [ quotes] a High Court case ‘a
    respected materials specialist argued that a cyclist who was
    brain injured from what was essentially a fall from their
    cycle, without any real forward momentum, would not have had
    their injuries reduced or prevented by a cycle helmet. This
    event involved contact against a flat tarmac surface with an
    impact energy potential of no more than 75 joules ' The
    court found in favour of his argument. So a High Court has
    decided that cycle helmets do not prevent injury even when
    falling from a cycle onto a flat surface , with little
    forward momentum. Cycle helmets will almost always perform
    much better against a flat surface than any other.' Brian
    Walker continues: ‘Referring back to the Court case
    mentioned earlier, the very eminent QC under whose
    instruction I was privileged to work, tried repeatedly to
    persuade the equally eminent neurosurgeons acting for either
    side, and the technical expert, to state that one must be
    safer wearing a helmet than without. All three refused to do
    so, stating th at they had seen severe brain damage and
    fatal injury both with and without cycle helmets being worn.
    In their view, the performance of cycle helmets is much too
    complex a subject for such a sweeping claim to be made."

    8) We might add to the above that the mechanisms of brain
    injury are also too complex to allow such a claim to be
    made. It is often said that the brain has the consistency
    of porridge and many serious brain injuries result not
    from direct impacts but from the brain rotating or
    ‘swirling' within the skull, suffering tears where it is
    more firmly attached or suffering damage from impacting
    against the inside of the skull. Helmets do little to
    prevent such injuries and may even make them worse. No
    one ever died from a ‘fractured skull' unless this had
    brain injuries associated with it.

  12. Howard said:

    3) If she just fell from her cycle she would have been
    most unlikely to suffer a fatal head injury.

    True, but this is possible, as has been discussed in the
    original thread.

    Quoted message said:


    4) The 'Would have saved her' and 'a helmet could have
    saved her' headlines were simply made up by the
    'journalist' involved. No actually made such a claim.

    Didn't they? Well, they certainly got very close to making
    such a claim. I quote, "PC Anthony Wilson said, 'If a cycle
    helmet had been worn, her injuries may not have been as
    severe.'" The implication in his words that the woman was,
    at least partially, responsible for her own death can not be
    avoided. The error was originally the policeman's and then
    compounded by the journalist.
    --
    Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "I feel so miserable
    without you, it's almost like having you here." -Stephen
    Bishop www.macclancy.demon.co.uk www.macclancy.co.uk

  13. "Tapio Kohonen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Hmm...I do not get it, maybe you know more details about
    this than I do. Is it not quite possible that a helmet
    might have saved her, if she was not run over by the
    cement mixer, but just knocked down?

    Possible, yes. Probable, no.

    --
    Dave...

  14. Michael MacClancy:

    Quoted message said:

    "PC Anthony Wilson said, 'If a cycle helmet had been worn,
    her injuries may not have been as severe.'" The
    implication in his words that the woman was, at least
    partially, responsible for her own death can not


    be

    Quoted message said:

    avoided.

    No - his comment relates to the effects of the incident, not
    the cause. There is no implication of blame either way.

    As it happens, the PC is most probably wrong in his
    assessment of the efficacy of cycle helmets but we don't
    know that his comment had any bearing on the findings of
    the inquest anyway. What matters here is the way the story
    was reported.

    d.

  15. davek said:

    Michael MacClancy:

    Quoted message said:

    "PC Anthony Wilson said, 'If a cycle helmet had been
    worn, her injuries may not have been as severe.'" The
    implication in his words that the woman was, at least
    partially, responsible for her own death can not


    be

    Quoted message said:

    avoided.

    No - his comment relates to the effects of the
    incident, not the cause. There is no implication of
    blame either way.

    I'm sorry, but I think only the most literal of people would
    read his statement and fail to infer that because her
    injuries may not have been as severe she may not have died
    and, therefore, had she decided to wear a helmet she might
    not be dead so she may be responsible for her own death. A
    bit contorted, I know, but I feel that the PC wanted to
    imply that (why else would he have said what he said?) and
    the journalist certainly infered
    it.

    If an unhelmeted motorcyclist died of head injuries almost
    everybody would say/think s/he was stupid for not wearing a
    helmet and, unfortunately, many people will extend the same
    efficacy to cycle helmets.

    --
    Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "He is not only dull
    himself, he is the cause of dullness in others." -Samuel
    Johnson www.macclancy.demon.co.uk www.macclancy.co.uk

  16. Michael MacClancy <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Howard said:

    3) If she just fell from her cycle she would have been
    most unlikely to suffer a fatal head injury.

    True, but this is possible, as has been discussed in the
    original thread.

    Possible, yes. Probable, no.

    (Is there an echo in here?)

    --
    Dave...

  17. Michael MacClancy <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Howard said:

    3) If she just fell from her cycle she would have been
    most unlikely to suffer a fatal head injury.

    True, but this is possible, as has been discussed in the
    original thread.

    Possible, yes. Probable, no.

    (Is there an echo in here?)

    --
    Dave...

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