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Polystyrene: The Wonder Material

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UK and Europe
Published
17 May 2004
Last activity
18 May 2004
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Just zis Guy, you know?
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  1. From BikeBiz http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=4101

    Polystyrene: the wonder material that can deflect speeding juggernauts

    Bicycle helmet manufacturers are careful not to over-state the protective
    abilities of their wares. But politicians, newspaper headline writers and,
    it seems, police officers, appear to believe polystyrene lids are effective
    in the sort of smashes nothing less than Volvo-type steel roll-cages would
    be of use. According to the Hull Daily Mail, a cycling lollipop lady in Hull
    died not only because she was ran down by a cement mixer but because she
    wasn't wearing a bicycle helmet...

    Hull Daily Mail reporter Alistair Houghton wrote a piece in yesterday's
    paper that was headlined 'A helmet could have saved her', referring to an
    inquest into the death of Irene Dorley who was killed when she was hit by a
    cement mixer last September.

    Houghton based his report on a comment from PC Anthony Wilson who is alleged
    to have said "If a cycle helmet had been worn, her injuries may not have
    been as severe."

    David Bayliss, the driver of the cement mixer, told police:

    "I don't understand how I didn't see her."

    The inquest coroner recorded a verdict of accidental death.

    In the recent helmet compulsion debate in the House of Commons, many MPs
    reported that children who died from chest injuries, could have been saved
    had they been wearing cycle helmets.

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    Victory is ours! Down with Eric the Half A Brain!

  2. you know? said:

    From BikeBiz http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=4101

    Polystyrene: the wonder material that can deflect speeding juggernauts

    I was reading some website the other day, I think it might have been part
    of the BBC's web, and it had a section of what to wear when cycling.
    Helmets weren't overly promoted and when mentioning them it had some line
    like, 'helmets are made out of polystyrene, the same material as some
    drinks cups'. I thought it nicely suggested their limitations without
    being overtly negative.

    Colin

  3. "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Hull Daily Mail reporter Alistair Houghton wrote a piece in yesterday's
    paper that was headlined 'A helmet could have saved her', referring to an
    inquest into the death of Irene Dorley who was killed when she was hit by


    a

    Quoted message said:

    cement mixer last September.

    They should have used the later " *would* have saved her" headline.

    --
    Simon M.

  4. Just zis Guy said:

    From BikeBiz http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=4101

    Polystyrene: the wonder material that can deflect speeding juggernauts

    Bicycle helmet manufacturers are careful not to over-state the protective
    abilities of their wares. But politicians, newspaper headline writers and,
    it seems, police officers, appear to believe polystyrene lids are effective
    in the sort of smashes nothing less than Volvo-type steel roll-cages would
    be of use. According to the Hull Daily Mail, a cycling lollipop lady in Hull
    died not only because she was ran down by a cement mixer but because she
    wasn't wearing a bicycle helmet...

    Hull Daily Mail reporter Alistair Houghton wrote a piece in yesterday's
    paper that was headlined 'A helmet could have saved her', referring to an
    inquest into the death of Irene Dorley who was killed when she was hit by a
    cement mixer last September.

    Houghton based his report on a comment from PC Anthony Wilson who is alleged
    to have said "If a cycle helmet had been worn, her injuries may not have
    been as severe."

    David Bayliss, the driver of the cement mixer, told police:

    "I don't understand how I didn't see her."

    The inquest coroner recorded a verdict of accidental death.

    In the recent helmet compulsion debate in the House of Commons, many MPs
    reported that children who died from chest injuries, could have been saved
    had they been wearing cycle helmets.

    I presume this PC is a world-expert on such matters as helmet safety and
    how they work, what their limitations are. If not, then the coroner
    should not have taken his advise.

  5. "Pete whelan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Just zis Guy said:

    From BikeBiz http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=4101

    Polystyrene: the wonder material that can deflect speeding juggernauts

    Bicycle helmet manufacturers are careful not to over-state the


    protective

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    abilities of their wares. But politicians, newspaper headline writers


    and,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    it seems, police officers, appear to believe polystyrene lids are


    effective

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    in the sort of smashes nothing less than Volvo-type steel roll-cages


    would

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    be of use. According to the Hull Daily Mail, a cycling lollipop lady in


    Hull

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    died not only because she was ran down by a cement mixer but because she
    wasn't wearing a bicycle helmet...

    Hull Daily Mail reporter Alistair Houghton wrote a piece in yesterday's
    paper that was headlined 'A helmet could have saved her', referring to


    an

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    inquest into the death of Irene Dorley who was killed when she was hit


    by a

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    cement mixer last September.

    Houghton based his report on a comment from PC Anthony Wilson who is


    alleged

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    to have said "If a cycle helmet had been worn, her injuries may not have
    been as severe."

    David Bayliss, the driver of the cement mixer, told police:

    "I don't understand how I didn't see her."

    The inquest coroner recorded a verdict of accidental death.

    In the recent helmet compulsion debate in the House of Commons, many MPs
    reported that children who died from chest injuries, could have been


    saved

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    had they been wearing cycle helmets.

    I presume this PC is a world-expert on such matters as helmet safety and
    how they work, what their limitations are. If not, then the coroner
    should not have taken his advise.


    I've always been convinced that my helmet would protect me against cement
    mixers. Glad to have been proved right.

    Peter

  6. "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Hull Daily Mail reporter Alistair Houghton wrote a piece in yesterday's
    paper that was headlined 'A helmet could have saved her', referring to an
    inquest into the death of Irene Dorley who was killed when she was hit by


    a

    Quoted message said:

    cement mixer last September.

    However could the dimwit arrive at that conclusion?

    Unless of course he has studied the mechanics of protective wear, carried
    out a post-mortem on the disceased, is skilled in accident investigation
    techniques etc., etc.

    --
    Regards,
    Pete

  7. Colin Blackburn said:

    I was reading some website the other day, I think it might have been part
    of the BBC's web, and it had a section of what to wear when cycling.
    Helmets weren't overly promoted and when mentioning them it had some line
    like, 'helmets are made out of polystyrene, the same material as some
    drinks cups'. I thought it nicely suggested their limitations without
    being overtly negative.

    "Warning, contents may be lukewarm"

    Tim

  8. "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    From BikeBiz http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=4101

    Polystyrene: the wonder material that can deflect speeding juggernauts

    Bicycle helmet manufacturers are careful not to over-state the protective
    abilities of their wares. But politicians, newspaper headline writers and,
    it seems, police officers, appear to believe polystyrene lids are


    effective

    Quoted message said:

    in the sort of smashes nothing less than Volvo-type steel roll-cages would
    be of use. According to the Hull Daily Mail, a cycling lollipop lady in


    Hull

    Quoted message said:

    died not only because she was ran down by a cement mixer but because she
    wasn't wearing a bicycle helmet...

    Hmm...I do not get it, maybe you know more details about this than I do.
    Is it not quite possible that a helmet might have saved her,
    if she was not run over by the cement mixer, but just knocked down?

    Tapio

  9. Quoted message said:

    posted by Tapio Kohonen [B Hmm...I do not get it, maybe you know more
    details about this than I do. Is it not quite possible that a helmet
    might have saved her, if she was not run over by the cement mixer, but
    just knocked down?
    Tapio

    Yeah Tapio, perhaps it might be possible and indeed it is conceivabl
    that (insert here whatever you are motivated to believe or wish to b
    the case). You could similarly argue that (within some bounds) anythin
    is possible if it's conceivable - but for one thing there's a
    expectation shared by some of us that newspaper headlines shouldn't b
    at the mercy of hijackers who want to inflict and infect others wit
    their pet beliefs. Those of us who take issue with this have a
    expectation that journalistic reporting should try to stick to reportin
    facts, impartially and with balance (admittedly that's a rather hopefu
    expectation) rather than using its ability to influence in aid o
    championing its own pet cause

    As other posters have pointed out (on another thread) there's a ga
    between what can be considered possible (which is speculative) and wha
    is empirically probable (i.e. based on evidence and knowledge). Many o
    us prefer rigorous reasoning and the standards of science rather tha
    the anxiety alleviating comfort that is afforded in the wishful thinkin
    of what might be possible

    If there's any reluctance to acknowledge that "it is possible that...
    then this reticence is, I would suggest, in response to the tendency
    typical of some, to turn what's only possible into something that i
    clearly not

    Roge

    -

  10. Quoted message said:

    posted by Tapio Kohonen [B Hmm...I do not get it, maybe you know more
    details about this than I do. Is it not quite possible that a helmet
    might have saved her, if she was not run over by the cement mixer, but
    just knocked down?
    Tapio

    Yeah Tapio, perhaps it might be possible and indeed it is conceivabl
    that (insert here whatever you are motivated to believe or wish to b
    the case). You could similarly argue that (within some bounds) anythin
    is possible if it's conceivable - but for one thing there's a
    expectation shared by some of us that newspaper headlines shouldn't b
    at the mercy of hijackers who want to inflict and infect others wit
    their pet beliefs. Those of us who take issue with this have a
    expectation that journalistic reporting should try to stick to reportin
    facts, impartially and with balance (admittedly that's a rather hopefu
    expectation) rather than using its ability to influence in aid o
    championing its own pet cause

    As other posters have pointed out (on another thread) there's a ga
    between what can be considered possible (which is speculative) and wha
    is empirically probable (i.e. based on evidence and knowledge). Many o
    us prefer rigorous reasoning and the standards of science rather tha
    the anxiety alleviating comfort that is afforded in the wishful thinkin
    of what might be possible

    If there's any reluctance to acknowledge that "it is possible that...
    then this reticence is, I would suggest, in response to the tendency
    typical of some, to turn what's only possible into something that i
    clearly not

    Roge

    -

  11. Quoted message said:


    Hmm...I do not get it, maybe you know more details about this than I do.
    Is it not quite possible that a helmet might have saved her,
    if she was not run over by the cement mixer, but just knocked down?

    Tapio

    1) The ability of a cycle helmet to absorb impacts is very limited.
    They are designed to absorb a 12.5 MPH impact onto a flat surface
    -about 14 MPH for the highest rated helmets. These sort of impacts
    very rarely lead to a fatality.

    2) In high impacts helmets tend to fail catastrophically, rather then
    absorbing a significant proportion of the overall impact.

    3) If she just fell from her cycle she would have been most unlikely
    to suffer a fatal head injury.

    3) Whatever the individual circumstances of this case it was wrong to
    place more emphasis on what the victim might or might have not done
    then the negligent behaviour of the driver who killed her.

    4) The 'Would have saved her' and 'a helmet could have saved her'
    headlines were simply made up by the 'journalist' involved. No
    actually made such a claim.

    5) This sort of victim blaming would not be done if the victim was
    another driver. Imagine the outcry if a court made more of the fact
    that a motorist drove a car that was not fitted with airbags then the
    fact they were hit and killed by a negligent lorry driver. Similarly,
    imagine the outcry if the perceived 'solution' to 'pavement cycling'
    was to argue that pedestrians should wear helmets and any who did not
    and were hit by a cyclist were negligent and at least as much to blame
    as a law breaking cyclist!

    6) This issue has been tested in the high court and it was accepted
    that it is not possible to claim that a helmet could have reduced
    serious head injuries. To quote Edward Leigh, Conservative MP, quoted
    in Hansard, following the April 23rd debate on Eric Martlew MP's
    helmet bill.

    "[Helmet expert] Brian Walker [ quotes] a High Court case ‘a respected
    materials specialist argued that a cyclist who was brain injured from
    what was essentially a fall from their cycle, without any real forward
    momentum, would not have had their injuries reduced or prevented by a
    cycle helmet. This event involved contact against a flat tarmac
    surface with an impact energy potential of no more than 75 joules '
    The court found in favour of his argument. So a High Court has decided
    that cycle helmets do not prevent injury even when falling from a
    cycle onto a flat surface , with little forward momentum. Cycle
    helmets will almost always perform much better against a flat surface
    than any other.' Brian Walker continues: ‘Referring back to the Court
    case mentioned earlier, the very eminent QC under whose instruction I
    was privileged to work, tried repeatedly to persuade the equally
    eminent neurosurgeons acting for either side, and the technical
    expert, to state that one must be safer wearing a helmet than without.
    All three refused to do so, stating th at they had seen severe brain
    damage and fatal injury both with and without cycle helmets being
    worn. In their view, the performance of cycle helmets is much too
    complex a subject for such a sweeping claim to be made."

    7) We might add to the above that the mechanisms of brain injury are
    also too complex to allow such a claim to be made. It is often said
    that the brain has the consistency of porridge and many serious brain
    injuries result not from direct impacts but from the brain rotating or
    ‘swirling' within the skull, suffering tears where it is more firmly
    attached or suffering damage from impacting against the inside of the
    skull. Helmets do little to prevent such injuries and may even make
    them worse. No one ever died from a ‘fractured skull' unless this had
    brain injuries associated with it.

  12. Howard said:

    3) If she just fell from her cycle she would have been most unlikely
    to suffer a fatal head injury.

    True, but this is possible, as has been discussed in the original thread.

    Quoted message said:


    4) The 'Would have saved her' and 'a helmet could have saved her'
    headlines were simply made up by the 'journalist' involved. No
    actually made such a claim.

    Didn't they? Well, they certainly got very close to making such a claim.
    I quote, "PC Anthony Wilson said, 'If a cycle helmet had been worn, her
    injuries may not have been as severe.'" The implication in his words that
    the woman was, at least partially, responsible for her own death can not be
    avoided. The error was originally the policeman's and then compounded by
    the journalist.
    --
    Michael MacClancy
    Random putdown - "I feel so miserable without you, it's almost like having
    you here." -Stephen Bishop
    www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
    www.macclancy.co.uk

  13. "Tapio Kohonen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Hmm...I do not get it, maybe you know more details about this than I do.
    Is it not quite possible that a helmet might have saved her,
    if she was not run over by the cement mixer, but just knocked down?

    Possible, yes. Probable, no.

    --
    Dave...

  14. Michael MacClancy:

    Quoted message said:

    "PC Anthony Wilson said, 'If a cycle helmet had been worn, her
    injuries may not have been as severe.'" The implication in his words that
    the woman was, at least partially, responsible for her own death can not


    be

    Quoted message said:

    avoided.

    No - his comment relates to the effects of the incident, not the cause.
    There is no implication of blame either way.

    As it happens, the PC is most probably wrong in his assessment of the
    efficacy of cycle helmets but we don't know that his comment had any bearing
    on the findings of the inquest anyway. What matters here is the way the
    story was reported.

    d.

  15. davek said:

    Michael MacClancy:

    Quoted message said:

    "PC Anthony Wilson said, 'If a cycle helmet had been worn, her
    injuries may not have been as severe.'" The implication in his words that
    the woman was, at least partially, responsible for her own death can not


    be

    Quoted message said:

    avoided.

    No - his comment relates to the effects of the incident, not the cause.
    There is no implication of blame either way.

    I'm sorry, but I think only the most literal of people would read his
    statement and fail to infer that because her injuries may not have been as
    severe she may not have died and, therefore, had she decided to wear a
    helmet she might not be dead so she may be responsible for her own death.
    A bit contorted, I know, but I feel that the PC wanted to imply that (why
    else would he have said what he said?) and the journalist certainly infered
    it.

    If an unhelmeted motorcyclist died of head injuries almost everybody would
    say/think s/he was stupid for not wearing a helmet and, unfortunately, many
    people will extend the same efficacy to cycle helmets.

    --
    Michael MacClancy
    Random putdown - "He is not only dull himself, he is the cause of dullness
    in others." -Samuel Johnson
    www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
    www.macclancy.co.uk

  16. Michael MacClancy <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Howard said:

    3) If she just fell from her cycle she would have been most unlikely
    to suffer a fatal head injury.

    True, but this is possible, as has been discussed in the original thread.

    Possible, yes. Probable, no.

    (Is there an echo in here?)

    --
    Dave...

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