Poll: Hating America

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by bioguy
A new book called "Hating America: The New World Sport" suggests a couple of things. First, that the U.S. is generally hated by the world. Second that our historic allies are not our friends.

Questions:
1. Where are you from?
2. Do you hate the U.S.?
3. Did we deserve to be attacked on 9/11?

I've never read the book called "Hating America - The New World Sport"
Have you read this book ?
If so, can you tell me who the author is ?

In response to your questions - I think that the subject of the USA
is so broad that it is difficult to give you one definitive answer
to any of your questions.

As I have progressed through life, I have realised that no one has
100% right or 100% wrong on their side.
Like everything in life, perception or lack of perception alters our
judgement.

The Sept 11th attacks were very, very interesting case in point.
In fact, I was on a day off work that day and I actually taped the media coverage here in Europe as events unfolded in New York.
I taped the news coverage because I realised that what happened in New York (1.45pm local time here in Europe) would
alter the world on the 11th September 2001.
I also wanted to have a record of what people did and said in the immediate aftermath of the attacks.

In the cold objectivity of hindsght, these tapes make very very interesting viewing.
Bush and Blair spouting that these attacks were an attack on civilisation (they weren't - they were an attack on the USA).
Chirac, Schroder warning that Europe was under attack.(Europe
was not under attack until countries in Europe decided to peg their colours to Bush & Co.)
Berlussconi saying that planes could attack the Vatican etc.
(again not true).
All wildly over the top reactions but set in the context of an emotional event - these warnings were wrong, disinformative and were designed to influence people.

Sky/Fox showing people celebrating in Palestine was another piece of grotesque disinformation (the footage was people
out celebrating in Palestine but it was coverage of a celebration taken one year before in Palestine and was superimposed to try to convince the world that the Palestinian people condoned the
11/9/01 attacks).
Then we had our Jewish friends in Israel using the pretext of the
Sept 11th attacks to take their war on the Arabs on to another level.

In response to your question though - there are plenty of people throughout the world who have very justifiable reasons for hating the USA.
US foreign policy in countries like Venezuala, Chile, Saudia Arabia,
Iraq - US unconditional support to regimes in Uzbeckistan for example, alienate the native populations in those countires.
The unconditional support of the Zionist cause in Israel also alienates vast amounts of people.

However, on the obverse side, until the USA got involved in the Former Yugoslavia, Euope allowed the worst crimes since WW2 to be committed against the muslim people of Bosnia (and thanks to the Clinton administration - Milosovic and Co have been brought to account).

So what I am saying is that the USA is a dillemma.
On the one hand, it is a force for good (see Bosnia) on the other hand it supports Zionism (see Israel).

Hating a country is silly. it is the politics’ that are hated. Blaming the us for what the politicians do is a bit silly.
Just like the US hating the French. Or any country hating another. Hate is just ignorance and prejudice and fear.

SteveK is absolutely right - it's the political policies of a country that alienates people.
I haven't met an American citizen who has been anything other than polite - but I can say the same for any person I've met from Britain, France, Australia as well.
Steve is right - it's the political policy of a country that someone might object to.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by stevek
Hating a country is silly. it is the politics’ that are hated. Blaming the us for what the politicians do is a bit silly.
Just like the US hating the French. Or any country hating another. Hate is just ignorance and prejudice and fear.

I agree that it is silly to hate other countries. While I may not agree with some of the things that the U.S. administration does, I am proud of my homeland for better or for worse. Besides, my bloodline makes me just a misplaced European anyway -- German, Swedish, Norwegian, and English. It would be silly of me to talk smack about my blood brothers on the other side of the pond.

Quoted post said:

A new book called "Hating America: The New World Sport"

I hate to get into semantics, but is Hating America actually a "sport"? Its non-competitive and there is no physical activity involved. I prefer to think of Hating America as more of a pasttime or hobby, like knitting or gardening. If it is considered a sport, I think it would be kind of fun if it got into the Olympics. I wonder who would be the medallists? Any guesses?

Okay, I actually have something serious to say...

Quoted post said:

Hating a country is silly. it is the politics’ that are hated. Blaming the us for what the politicians do is a bit silly.

I completely 100% disagree with this notion and I am shocked about how often I hear this said. In any democratic society, the citizens of a country are entirely responsible for the actions of their leaders - they elect them for chrissakes!! Politicians are responsible to their voters and are supposed to be their representatives. If citizens refuse to take their representatives to task for decisions they do not agree with, if they re-elect poor leaders, if citizens refuse to vote, if citizens refuse to educate themselves about what is going on in the world, they are entirely responsible for the repercussions of their poor judgment, complacency, and ignorance.

George Bush won the 2000 election. People voted for him! Opinion polls in the US show a majority support for Bush's actions in Iraq and on other issues.

The American people are 100% responsible for every single action taken by this and every other President before him. And they should be held accountable.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Saucy
[

I completely 100% disagree with this notion and I am shocked about how often I hear this said. In any democratic society, the citizens of a country are entirely responsible for the actions of their leaders - they elect them for chrissakes!! Politicians are responsible to their voters and are supposed to be their representatives. If citizens refuse to take their representatives to task for decisions they do not agree with, if they re-elect poor leaders, if citizens refuse to vote, if citizens refuse to educate themselves about what is going on in the world, they are entirely responsible for the repercussions of their poor judgment, complacency, and ignorance.

George Bush won the 2000 election. People voted for him! Opinion polls in the US show a majority support for Bush's actions in Iraq and on other issues.

The American people are 100% responsible for every single action taken by this and every other President before him. And they should be held accountable. [/B]

Yes we do vote for them but we don't control them. We can't stop them from doing what they want. But we only have a limited say in who we vote for. We may be a democracy but we are not totally free.
Bush did not win by the number of votes. And no one knows what he would be like.
It is nice to blame the people for things they can’t control. But remember if we are to blame then everyone in every country is responsible for their leader’s actions. I mean they can always overthrow the government right??

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Saucy
I hate to get into semantics, but is Hating America actually a "sport"? Its non-competitive and there is no physical activity involved. I prefer to think of Hating America as more of a pasttime or hobby, like knitting or gardening. If it is considered a sport, I think it would be kind of fun if it got into the Olympics. I wonder who would be the medallists? Any guesses?

Okay, I actually have something serious to say...



I completely 100% disagree with this notion and I am shocked about how often I hear this said. In any democratic society, the citizens of a country are entirely responsible for the actions of their leaders - they elect them for chrissakes!! Politicians are responsible to their voters and are supposed to be their representatives. If citizens refuse to take their representatives to task for decisions they do not agree with, if they re-elect poor leaders, if citizens refuse to vote, if citizens refuse to educate themselves about what is going on in the world, they are entirely responsible for the repercussions of their poor judgment, complacency, and ignorance.

George Bush won the 2000 election. People voted for him! Opinion polls in the US show a majority support for Bush's actions in Iraq and on other issues.

The American people are 100% responsible for every single action taken by this and every other President before him. And they should be held accountable.

While I agree in principle with the notion that people elect the government – it seems to me that the people are powerless to prevent their government making policies once they are in government.
It is incumbent upon every citizen to make sure that their political representatives execute the policies upon which they were elected.
For example, the Bush government did not campaign upon the notion of invading Iraq or Afghanistan when they were lobbying for votes in the 2000 election.
Because they invaded Iraq/Afghanistan – is this breaking their election mandate ?

I go back to the question which a lot of Americans asked themselves in the immediate aftermath of Sept 11th.
The question was “Why do they hate us ?”
By even asking this question, it is obvious that a lot of American citizens have no idea what their government does in other countries, IN THEIR NAME.
If a missile lands in my home and I see General Electric and a USA address on that missile, I too would detest America.
If my family were uprooted from their house and told to occupy an area 50% smaller - and then have to watch my home taken over by complete strangers – and then I see the
same strangers being subsidized by the USA, of course I would feel very angry toward the USA.
Or if I voted in my countries presidential election – and my candidate won the election but was then overthrown in a CIA orchestrated coup, I would naturally feel angry toward the USA too.
These three instances have occurred in foreign countries in the past 4 years.
I imagine that a lot of Americans wouldn’t even know what I am talking about here.
But if I substituted a Russian name for General Electric or if Isaid that people were being forcibly removed from their homes in New Jersey or if I said that Govenor Bloomberg
was removed from office by a coup – then American people would know (and would want to know) about these issues and would take direct action.

The American correspondent Dan Rather CBS said it all when he said and I quote
“I am very uneasy with what I am told to read on the 7.00pm news each evening because I know that only one side of the story is being presented”.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by limerickman
While I agree in principle with the notion that people elect the government – it seems to me that the people are powerless to prevent their government making policies once they are in government.
It is incumbent upon every citizen to make sure that their political representatives execute the policies upon which they were elected.
For example, the Bush government did not campaign upon the notion of invading Iraq or Afghanistan when they were lobbying for votes in the 2000 election.
Because they invaded Iraq/Afghanistan – is this breaking their election mandate ?

I go back to the question which a lot of Americans asked themselves in the immediate aftermath of Sept 11th.
The question was “Why do they hate us ?”
By even asking this question, it is obvious that a lot of American citizens have no idea what their government does in other countries, IN THEIR NAME.
If a missile lands in my home and I see General Electric and a USA address on that missile, I too would detest America.
If my family were uprooted from their house and told to occupy an area 50% smaller - and then have to watch my home taken over by complete strangers – and then I see the
same strangers being subsidized by the USA, of course I would feel very angry toward the USA.
Or if I voted in my countries presidential election – and my candidate won the election but was then overthrown in a CIA orchestrated coup, I would naturally feel angry toward the USA too.
These three instances have occurred in foreign countries in the past 4 years.
I imagine that a lot of Americans wouldn’t even know what I am talking about here.
But if I substituted a Russian name for General Electric or if Isaid that people were being forcibly removed from their homes in New Jersey or if I said that Govenor Bloomberg
was removed from office by a coup – then American people would know (and would want to know) about these issues and would take direct action.

The American correspondent Dan Rather CBS said it all when he said and I quote
“I am very uneasy with what I am told to read on the 7.00pm news each evening because I know that only one side of the story is being presented”.

#1 Where are you getting your info and what are your credentials? If it is from a media source then your point is questionable. If not, are you a CIA operative or did you read this in Clarks book...

#2 I suppose Dan didn't bother to watch what was airing on aljazeera!!!

#3 I've been in many foreign Countries and not all feel that way. Having said that, no matter what country you are in, you are either hated or liked. I think that we (Americans) have been hated or loathed by various groups for many years but the advent of the internet has just made it easier to organize this hatred....

#4 Bombs or not, its nice to know that someone out there hates me😄

no matter how much we are hated we seemed to be imitated the most though (G)

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by stevek
no matter how much we are hated we seemed to be imitated the most though (G)

Funny how that is.....

In many countries the politics reflect the will of the people. In the US, people have long since lost the ability to influence much of anything in politics. Money controls US politics so the people with the money (Read big business.) control pretty much everything. The US is far more of a corporate oligopoly than a democracy.
We us citizens have been watching the stupid disgusting and appalling things our government does in our name and hating that government, and the fact that we have virtually no control over them, for years.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by sea
In many countries the politics reflect the will of the people. In the US, people have long since lost the ability to influence much of anything in politics. Money controls US politics so the people with the money (Read big business.) control pretty much everything. The US is far more of a corporate oligopoly than a democracy.
We us citizens have been watching the stupid disgusting and appalling things our government does in our name and hating them for years.

Don't include me in the "we". I participate vice watch. Although, I don't agree with everything WE do, I find that WE are not the only one doing things that isn't approved by EVERYONE! What a defeatest statement...

What one might find digusting or appalling might seem acceptable and righteous by someone else...Personally, I'm tired of the idea that WE have to appologize for everything we do. Are we perfect? NO but as a country we are more civilized than most libs would have you believe...

Let me see if I can name a few countries that reflect the true will of the people....Well, I can't for I am not "all knowing" and neither is anyone else who makes that assumption!

:p

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by zapper
#1 Where are you getting your info and what are your credentials? If it is from a media source then your point is questionable. If not, are you a CIA operative or did you read this in Clarks book...

#2 I suppose Dan didn't bother to watch what was airing on aljazeera!!!

#3 I've been in many foreign Countries and not all feel that way. Having said that, no matter what country you are in, you are either hated or liked. I think that we (Americans) have been hated or loathed by various groups for many years but the advent of the internet has just made it easier to organize this hatred....

#4 Bombs or not, its nice to know that someone out there hates me😄

What are my credentials ? Where am I getting my information from ?
My credentials as far as this discussion goes is that as a reasonably cogent human being, who takes an interest in what is going on in the world.
I am not an CIA operative.
And I have not read Richard Clarks book either.

In this part of the world, we have a station called the British Broadcasting Corporation.
The BBC is a publicly owned media station based in London, England.
BBC veteran reporter Charles Wheeler interviewed Dan Rather and Rather stated that the information which he reads on the CBS news is vetted and checked by the parent company of CBS to ensure that a certain political line is expounded when delivering the news.
Rather stated this - it is a matter of record.

Your perception of America and American being hated or liked doesn't concure with my perception of American and Americans.
99.9% of americans who I have met are thoroughly decent human beings.
In every case, they want to go about their business and not offend or upset anyone.
Unfortunately though, they also live in a comfort zone where they
have no need to know about the world in a general sense.
In fact, it is because of the self sufficiency that most americans I have met have little or no knowledge of what goes on at central goverment in the USA or throughout the world.

As regards feeling happy because someone hates you - I am assuming that you're being ironic, here ?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by limerickman
What are my credentials ? Where am I getting my information from ?
My credentials as far as this discussion goes is that as a reasonably cogent human being, who takes an interest in what is going on in the world.
I am not an CIA operative.
And I have not read Richard Clarks book either.

In this part of the world, we have a station called the British Broadcasting Corporation.
The BBC is a publicly owned media station based in London, England.
BBC veteran reporter Charles Wheeler interviewed Dan Rather and Rather stated that the information which he reads on the CBS news is vetted and checked by the parent company of CBS to ensure that a certain political line is expounded when delivering the news.
Rather stated this - it is a matter of record.

Your perception of America and American being hated or liked doesn't concure with my perception of American and Americans.
99.9% of americans who I have met are thoroughly decent human beings.
In every case, they want to go about their business and not offend or upset anyone.
Unfortunately though, they also live in a comfort zone where they
have no need to know about the world in a general sense.
In fact, it is because of the self sufficiency that most americans I have met have little or no knowledge of what goes on at central goverment in the USA or throughout the world.

As regards feeling happy because someone hates you - I am assuming that you're being ironic, here ?

Limerickman let me start with saying that I think that you seem to have a vast knowledge when it comes to bikes and racing topics etc. (I value your opinion in that area!) However, I'm not as impressed with your knowledge of MY country. I must add that the time I spent in the UK, (of course I'm assuming you are from the UK) was spectacular and I did not meet one person I didn't like. I made many friends in the short time I was there and can't wait to go back again. Toured Ireland..also very nice. Italy was beautiful.. France was nice but got along much better with the older population than the younger. I've been may times to the middle east. I have seen America's actions throughout the world.

My credentials? I am one of those individuals in the American military that you seem to think you know so much about. It is ironic how one could form such an indepth opinion of a Country and its Soldiers while living abroad...or excuse me watching the BBC. Having said that, for the purpose of this forum, I don't blindly follow my Commander-in-Chief....(I think you have said something like that in the past) I joined the military to fulfill my patriotic duty and be part of MY government and I also watch the BBC, I hope it is the same version that appears on your tv.

My point is. I know us (Americans) are not perfect. We make mistakes and just like any other nation, we are home to some idiots who give us a bad name. You and I are not different, we just come from a different area of the world. We are all Human beings...

The Clinton administration was disasterous...They cut military spending(money out of my pocket) cut the number of military...which means I had longer deployments away from my family (in peacetime... A big difference that when at war!) and we had to spread our forces too thin. Not to mention he was having an adulterous relationship while deciding where to lob a missle at Osama to draw attention from Lewinsky...(swatting flies)

George Bush and Tony Blair are the right men for our time now. We can not let terroism defeat us! We must take the fight to them, root them out and destroy them! If you want to be a spectator thats fine, but I refuse to sit and watch evil destroy the world. Just remember, if the terrorist disappeared, innocent civilians would not be killed. But because they exist and hide in churches, schools and civilian homes unfortunately they are drawn into the crossfire.

Is it better for our countries to be held hostage and have elections tainted by acts of terrorism? I don't think so.

Anyway, just my opinon.. I'm not trying to impeach your viewpoint, just giving you mine. That is the beauty of Freedom and thats what I'm fighting for!

p.s. I'm curious. What countries are you referring to that were overthrown by our CIA????

pss. Dan Rather is a fraud...He is only 5ft 6" tall and he tries to appear that is a 6 footer. Not only that, what he was referring to is that the Liberal Media wouldn't let him tell the Republican point of view. Thats why he made his statement...😄

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by limerickman

As regards feeling happy because someone hates you - I am assuming that you're being ironic, here ?

No, just know that it is inevitable...One can not please everyone..right? So, I would rather someone hate me and be upfront about it than pretend to be my friend then not support me when I needed it...kind of what nations do to each other at the U.N. Of course, if it included kickbacks from Sadaam for "the Oil for Food" program, I guess it would be acceptable...No wonder Chirac, Schroder showed their true colors....

😕

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by zapper
Limerickman let me start with saying that I think that you seem to have a vast knowledge when it comes to bikes and racing topics etc. (I value your opinion in that area!) However, I'm not as impressed with your knowledge of MY country. I must add that the time I spent in the UK, (of course I'm assuming you are from the UK) was spectacular and I did not meet one person I didn't like. I made many friends in the short time I was there and can't wait to go back again. Toured Ireland..also very nice. Italy was beautiful.. France was nice but got along much better with the older population than the younger. I've been may times to the middle east. I have seen America's actions throughout the world.

My credentials? I am one of those individuals in the American military that you seem to think you know so much about. It is ironic how one could form such an indepth opinion of a Country and its Soldiers while living abroad...or excuse me watching the BBC. Having said that, for the purpose of this forum, I don't blindly follow my Commander-in-Chief....(I think you have said something like that in the past) I joined the military to fulfill my patriotic duty and be part of MY government and I also watch the BBC, I hope it is the same version that appears on your tv.

My point is. I know us (Americans) are not perfect. We make mistakes and just like any other nation, we are home to some idiots who give us a bad name. You and I are not different, we just come from a different area of the world. We are all Human beings...

The Clinton administration was disasterous...They cut military spending(money out of my pocket) cut the number of military...which means I had longer deployments away from my family (in peacetime... A big difference that when at war!) and we had to spread our forces too thin. Not to mention he was having an adulterous relationship while deciding where to lob a missle at Osama to draw attention from Lewinsky...(swatting flies)

George Bush and Tony Blair are the right men for our time now. We can not let terroism defeat us! We must take the fight to them, root them out and destroy them! If you want to be a spectator thats fine, but I refuse to sit and watch evil destroy the world. Just remember, if the terrorist disappeared, innocent civilians would not be killed. But because they exist and hide in churches, schools and civilian homes unfortunately they are drawn into the crossfire.

Is it better for our countries to be held hostage and have elections tainted by acts of terrorism? I don't think so.

Anyway, just my opinon.. I'm not trying to impeach your viewpoint, just giving you mine. That is the beauty of Freedom and thats what I'm fighting for!

p.s. I'm curious. What countries are you referring to that were overthrown by our CIA????

pss. Dan Rather is a fraud...He is only 5ft 6" tall and he tries to appear that is a 6 footer. Not only that, what he was referring to is that the Liberal Media wouldn't let him tell the Republican point of view. Thats why he made his statement...😄

Zapper,

You are quite right - freedom does allow us to exchnage views and for that we must be grateful.

Before disussing your reply - I am from Ireland.
I have no difficulty with anyone being a member of the US armed forces.
As you rightly point out a lot of men and women join the US forces
in order to earn a living.
Unfortunately, the armed forces come under the stewardship of
politicians.
If you're a member of the US armed forces - and you commander in chief declares war - you have no choice but to fight or else
you commit treason.

Your commander in chief, Mr.Bush decided that 2003 was the right time to invade Iraq.
His goverment produced a series of lies to justify their attacking Iraq.
Supposedly Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, Hussein
supposedly supported Al Quaeda.
Your secreatry of State, Powell went to the UN and produced doctored photographs allegedly showing mobile WMD lauch units.
These photographs later transpired to be photos of juggernauts.

OK goverments lie all the time but in this case, Bush and Co. not only lied to the world - they have also let their military personnel be used as cannon fodder in Iraq.
The reason why the US goverment invaded Iraq is it wants to secure another source of oil should Saudi Arabia fall in to the wrong hands.

The topic of the thread is why do (some) people hate USA ?
A lot of people around the world have reason to hate the USA.
Look at the US support of Israel for example.
How would you feel if you were told that you would have to abandon your home and move elsewhere.
After you're moved - you have to sit there and watch another family occupy your property.
And on top of that, you have to sit there and watch as the USA
support the economy of the country of the occupiers of your home !
You see General Electric or Westinghouse or United Technologies supply the army of your occupier with military support.

Or how about Venezuala.
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez was elected in April 2002.
As it happened an irish TV company were in Venezuela to film his election when a military coup took place.
It transpires that there is direct evidence showing funding provided by the CIA to rightwing political groups to engineer said coup.

The evil that you take about which is threatening the world was germinated by your goverment in Afghanistan in the 1980's.
Back then it was expedient for your goverment to back militarily and financially, Osama Bin Laden and the mujahadeen, in the
war against the USSR.
Again the CIA provided financial and logistical expertise to what
is now known as Al Quaeda.
It was expedient for the USA to support Bin Laden back then !
But now because Bin Laden decided to bite the hand that fed him - he's evil !
Who was the biggest backer of Saddam Hussein in the 1980's ?
The USA.

All goverments are corrupt - British, Irish, American etc.
They are expedient and will lie through their teeth to justify what they do in our name.
I just feel sorry for the ordinary soldier who has to obey the orders of those expedient politicans.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by limerickman

Zapper,

You are quite right - freedom does allow us to exchnage views and for that we must be grateful. (thanks)

As you rightly point out a lot of men and women join the US forces
in order to earn a living.

(zapper) How you extrapolated that out of my one reference to pay is a bit of a reach…My family owns 7 Comedy Clubs. I did not join for the Money. Some join for patriotism, college/technical education, for the joy of helping people, to get away from family etc. There are many reasons. My wife’s father and his 8 brothers all served in the Armed Forces and by the way…Not for monetary reasons…So once again, you make some generalizations without any facts to back it up. If you are getting this info from the BBC…their wrong!

If you're a member of the US armed forces - and you commander in chief declares war - you have no choice but to fight or else
you commit treason.

(zapper) I wouldn’t have it any other way. You see, we take an oath when we join, it means something it is not a corporate contract. It’s called Honor, Courage and Comittment!

Your commander in chief, Mr.Bush decided that 2003 was the right time to invade Iraq.

(zapper) Actually, we started the war in 2004 but glad you are that generous, the liberals around here are trying to say he decided in 2001! Personally, it should have been done a long time ago but Clinton and the (U.N.) lacked the courage to do the right thing OR maybe he was getting money for oil too...

His goverment produced a series of lies to justify their attacking Iraq.Supposedly Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, Hussein supposedly supported Al Quaeda.

(zapper) Oh, what did he use to kill hundreds of thousands of his own people, mass flatulence? He had em', He used them and that is a FACT!

OK goverments lie all the time but in this case, Bush and Co. not only lied to the world - they have also let their military personnel be used as cannon fodder in Iraq.

(ZAPPER) Let us worry about that…I don’t see that as a reason to hate us…

The reason why the US goverment invaded Iraq is it wants to secure another source of oil should Saudi Arabia fall in to the wrong hands. (ZAPPER)Oh, I thought that the Bush’s were best friends with the Saudi Government and would protect them????

Israel – I have my own beliefs that are personal not objectionable so I won’t discuss that topic. Suffice it to say, that I disagree but I am from the “bible belt”..

It transpires that there is direct evidence showing funding provided by the CIA to rightwing political groups to engineer said coup. (ZAPPER)Getting this info from the CIA or the BBC? I don’t trust the media, so I trust you have personal knowledge of this?

I just feel sorry for the ordinary soldier who has to obey the orders of those expedient politicans. (ZAPPER) Don't feel sorry for me. Just stop watching the BBC..its ruining your mind🙂

Limerickman, I enjoy your banter but lets be honest and go back to my original point. We (Americans) could be hated by somebody somewhere no matter what we did. It's in peoples human nature for whatever reason to only recognize the negative and not embrace the positive. There is a lot of good going on in IRAQ. A lot of people are better off than they were Pre-Sadaam.

Did we contribute to our current problems...you bet. I beleive that our current President was not involved in that over 20 years ago and years prior to that. So, like I said, I prefer to know who my enemies are...makes it easier to smite them...

Having said that, I hope it doesn't prevent you from passing inciteful info to me when I need help about something you know more about. Like...Bikes😄

(zapper) Actually, we started the war in 2004 but glad you are that generous, the liberals around here are trying to say he decided in 2001! Personally, it should have been done a long time ago but Clinton and the (U.N.) lacked the courage to do the right thing OR maybe he was getting money for oil too...

-------------------------------------------------
Sorry typo.. should have been 2003...

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by zapper
(zapper) Actually, we started the war in 2004 but glad you are that generous, the liberals around here are trying to say he decided in 2001! Personally, it should have been done a long time ago but Clinton and the (U.N.) lacked the courage to do the right thing OR maybe he was getting money for oil too...

-------------------------------------------------
Sorry typo.. should have been 2003...

I don't mean to be smart but the invasion of Iraq took place on
21st March 2003
USA has been in Iraq 13 months.
The war didn't start in 2004.