Polite wrong-way riders

"Leo Lichtman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Rich, you have shown us that your ability to persuade, even in this
newsgroup, where words can be carefully chosen, and ideas fully
considered, is not great. How are you doing on your one-man
wrong-way-riding gutter crusade in Philadelphia? Not too well, I guess.
You encounter half a dozen cases a day, and now even the cops are mad at
you. Why don't you just relax, ride your bike, and let nature take its
course?

Because nature keeps trying to crash into me or run me into traffic.

How's my crusade doing? At least as well as anyone else's.

RichC

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

While I can think of any number of reasons for a bike patrol officer to
ride the wrong way on a street unless those reasons are present they
should be riding correctly and legally. Of course, if one or more of
those reasons *are* present when a good citizen tries to correct their
riding I could see the response might be interpreted to be hostile. As
for my losing touch with the "psyche of my urban brethren", unless you
spend at least 50 hours a week in the company of cops I'd say I have a
better opportunity than you to judge the cop psyche. If you meant that
"big city" cops are different than those I deal with daily, the last
time I looked Chicago had roughly twice the population of Philadelphia
in about 3/4 of the land area.

Bob, sorry, I had the impression you were some sort of Highway Patrol
officer, not a city cop. As for the CPD, my most lasting impression was
formed in 1968 when an armed gang of them threw me bodily into the Lincoln
Park Lagoon for the crime of looking like a "hippie who needs a bath" during
the Democratic National Convention. I can still hear them laughing.

My interactions with most city cops in the years since has done nothing to
change my impression. I'm sure there are exceptions, but so far none of them
have wanted to answer the question "why don't you observe traffic laws when
on bike patrol," or engage in any dialogue at all.

And gee, these days I don't have *any* hair.

RichC

Rich Clark said:

Bob, sorry, I had the impression you were some sort of Highway Patrol
officer, not a city cop. As for the CPD, my most lasting impression was
formed in 1968 when an armed gang of them threw me bodily into the Lincoln
Park Lagoon for the crime of looking like a "hippie who needs a bath" during
the Democratic National Convention. I can still hear them laughing.

My interactions with most city cops in the years since has done nothing to
change my impression. I'm sure there are exceptions, but so far none of them
have wanted to answer the question "why don't you observe traffic laws when
on bike patrol," or engage in any dialogue at all.

And gee, these days I don't have *any* hair.

RichC

Gee, I can't imagine why anyone would ignore a question phrased in that
manner. It doesn't sound any more argumentative or confrontational
than, "Were you born a jerk or did you have to work at becoming one?",
would if someone asked you that.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

P.S.- If you are still smarting over being dunked in a lagoon (not
falsely imprisoned or physically injured) 36 years ago, you need to
lighten up a little. Life's too short to hold grudges.

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gee, I can't imagine why anyone would ignore a question phrased in that
manner. It doesn't sound any more argumentative or confrontational
than, "Were you born a jerk or did you have to work at becoming one?",
would if someone asked you that.

I'm of course paraphrasing and condensing. Do I really have to typle the
whole, "Excuse me officer, do you have a minute?" conversation in order for
you to accept that I can be civil and polite and still get hostile and
condescending responses from cops?

Quoted message said:

Regards,
Bob Hunt

P.S.- If you are still smarting over being dunked in a lagoon (not
falsely imprisoned or physically injured) 36 years ago, you need to
lighten up a little. Life's too short to hold grudges.

Easy for you to say. You're the one in the position of power. I became
sensitized to something in 1968 that I still see repeatedly today. You, sir,
are not in a position to argue this unless you spend a lot of time
interacting with police while disguised as a civilian.

RichC

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

P.S.- If you are still smarting over being dunked in a lagoon (not
falsely imprisoned or physically injured) 36 years ago, you need to
lighten up a little. Life's too short to hold grudges.

So in your estimation police abuse of citizens is OK as long as it doesn't
cross some line? What exactly do they tell you about the police riot of 1968
when you go to the academy these days?

RichC

Rich Clark said:

So in your estimation police abuse of citizens is OK as long as it doesn't
cross some line? What exactly do they tell you about the police riot of 1968
when you go to the academy these days?

RichC

Rich-
Nice try but I didn't say *anyone* abusing *anyone* is okay. What I
said was that if you are still smarting over something that happened to
you 38 years ago, something that may have caused you humiliation but no
real physical injury, you need to lighten up a bit. Holding grudges for
that long is unhealthy. Even if it was their first day on the job, I
guarantee that every one of those cops is either dead or retired.
Give it a rest. You'll be a better person for it. Maybe you'll even
stop forcing wrong way riders out into traffic.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Rich Clark said:

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gee, I can't imagine why anyone would ignore a question phrased in that
manner. It doesn't sound any more argumentative or confrontational
than, "Were you born a jerk or did you have to work at becoming one?",
would if someone asked you that.

I'm of course paraphrasing and condensing. Do I really have to typle the
whole, "Excuse me officer, do you have a minute?" conversation in order for
you to accept that I can be civil and polite and still get hostile and
condescending responses from cops?

Based both on what you wrote ("I'm sure there are exceptions, but so
far none of them have wanted to answer the question "why don't you
observe traffic laws when on bike patrol," or engage in any dialogue at
all."😉 and the general tone of your posts in this thread, yes, you do
because while you may be a heck of a nice guy in person, here you come
across as hostile and defensive.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

P.S.- If you are still smarting over being dunked in a lagoon (not
falsely imprisoned or physically injured) 36 years ago, you need to
lighten up a little. Life's too short to hold grudges.

Easy for you to say. You're the one in the position of power. I became
sensitized to something in 1968 that I still see repeatedly today. You, sir,
are not in a position to argue this unless you spend a lot of time
interacting with police while disguised as a civilian.

It's not about police vs civilian, Rich. We *all* suffer slights and
insults at some time in our lives. If ,38 years after this particular
humiliating experience, you can as you said, "still hear them
laughing", you have a problem.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It's not about police vs civilian, Rich. We *all* suffer slights and
insults at some time in our lives. If ,38 years after this particular
humiliating experience, you can as you said, "still hear them
laughing", you have a problem.

I think most of us can clearly remember the defining experiences of our
lives. The day my eyes were opened regarding the real relationship between
police and civilians was such an experience for me.

You characterize it as "humiliating." Interesting that you see it so. But
not surprising.

RichC

Rich Clark said:

I think most of us can clearly remember the defining experiences of our
lives. The day my eyes were opened regarding the real relationship between
police and civilians was such an experience for me.

I was an impressionable when I got an attitude adjustment at the end
of a night stick while innocently waiting for a bus.
I'd not done anything wrong, I was just the wrong type.
--
zk

"Zoot Katz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Rich Clark said:

I think most of us can clearly remember the defining experiences of our
lives. The day my eyes were opened regarding the real relationship between
police and civilians was such an experience for me.

I was an impressionable when I got an attitude adjustment at the end
of a night stick while innocently waiting for a bus.
I'd not done anything wrong, I was just the wrong type.

Well, Bob thinks you need another attitude adjustment, because you should
have gotten over it by now.

RichC

Rich Clark wrote:
:: I'm surprised that so many people never stopped to visualize this
:: scenario before condemning it.
::
:: 1) When I do this, it gives me an opportunity to get out of the
:: WWR's way in a situation that would be much more hazardous at speed
:: on a busy city street. I can just step up onto the curb, instead of
:: letting the crash happen if nobody cedes the right of way.
::
:: 2) WWR's are almost always going relatively slowly. You can see them
:: coming and decide what you want to do about it.
::
:: 3) Saying something to a WWR when passing at speed is ineffective.
:: There's not enough time to say anything meaningful. From a stop,
:: your window of opportunity is longer.
::
:: My personal experience is that WWRs are the most dangerous vehicles
:: on the road, measured by the number of times I've actually been
:: endangered. I usually have to deal with from 2 to 6 of them daily in
:: my Philadelphia commute. This is not a trivial matter to me, and I
:: want these people to remember the message that they're just as
:: dangerous and stupid as a car driving the wrong way on a street.
::
:: And Bob, it may interest you to know that a significant percentage
:: of the wrong-way riders I encounter in downtown Philadelphia are
:: cops. And if you think my attempts, either via conversations or
:: letter-writing, to encourage change in the cycling behavior of the
:: Philadelphia bike patrol have met with anything but hostility and
:: downright threats, you may have lost touch with the psyche of your
:: urban brethren.
::
:: RichC

Well, had your explained yourself better in the first place.....we wouldn't
have had to attempt to read your mind! 🙂

Rich Clark wrote:
:: "Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:[email hidden]...
::: Rich Clark wrote:
::::
:::: It is my practice, when circumstances and my state of mind allow,
:::: to actually /stop/ and plant myself diagonally so that the
:::: wrong-way rider must
:::: veer into the oncoming traffic lane. This often creates
:::: opportunities for interesting dialogue.
::::
:::: RichC
:::
::: Gee, that's a really good idea. We should all follow your example in
::: all things. I think the next time I'm sitting at a red light in a
::: car and I see a cyclist illegally "filtering" their way past me by
::: either lane splitting or riding in the gutter, I'll just fling open
::: a door or maybe squeeze over to impede their progress. If they get
::: hurt I won't be held liable or even feel badly about their injury
::: because it will be a result of their traffic violation, right?
::
:: I'm surprised that so many people never stopped to visualize this
:: scenario before condemning it.
::
:: 1) When I do this, it gives me an opportunity to get out of the
:: WWR's way in a situation that would be much more hazardous at speed
:: on a busy city street. I can just step up onto the curb, instead of
:: letting the crash happen if nobody cedes the right of way.

I've always been able to avoid crashes, as they come up slowly....I can
prepare to react. Of course, there was the one time I was making a right
turn at a intersection with a light....and here comes a WWR making a left at
the same time I'm turning right. What made that dangerous is that I didn't
see her and wasn't even expecting her to be in that lane, since I was
looking for traffic from the opposite direction (late traffic after a light
change). Lucky for me she was hugging the curb and I was in the lane. But
we met each other "in turn".

::
:: 2) WWR's are almost always going relatively slowly. You can see them
:: coming and decide what you want to do about it.
::
:: 3) Saying something to a WWR when passing at speed is ineffective.
:: There's not enough time to say anything meaningful. From a stop,
:: your window of opportunity is longer.
::
:: My personal experience is that WWRs are the most dangerous vehicles
:: on the road, measured by the number of times I've actually been
:: endangered. I usually have to deal with from 2 to 6 of them daily in
:: my Philadelphia commute. This is not a trivial matter to me, and I
:: want these people to remember the message that they're just as
:: dangerous and stupid as a car driving the wrong way on a street.

2 to 6 daily? Man, getting off the bike that many times on the way to work?
That must really slow you down!

Peter Cole wrote:
:: A similar issue is warning another rider when you pass. I was
:: criticized by another cyclist for not doing this one time -- he was
:: irate and yelled for me to stop, whereupon he began the lecture. I
:: explained to him why I disagreed. He had assumed ignorance on my
:: part. I had the tact not to reveal that I never "warn" riders who
:: seem sketchy, because of their unpredictable responses, the category
:: in which I had included him.

Good grief. Take about confrontation. I can't even imagine this one. Why
would anyone want to become irate while riding?

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

2 to 6 daily? Man, getting off the bike that many times on the way to
work? That must really slow you down!

"when circumstances and my state of mind allow," I said. Sheesh. Read what I
wrote, not what you think I wrote.

RichC

Rich Clark wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:[email hidden]...
::: 2 to 6 daily? Man, getting off the bike that many times on the way
::: to work? That must really slow you down!
::
:: "when circumstances and my state of mind allow," I said. Sheesh.
:: Read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote.
::
:: RichC

Oh, you mean when you're in a really [censored] mood, right?

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Rich Clark wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:[email hidden]...
::: 2 to 6 daily? Man, getting off the bike that many times on the way
::: to work? That must really slow you down!
::
:: "when circumstances and my state of mind allow," I said. Sheesh.
:: Read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote.
::
:: RichC

Oh, you mean when you're in a really [censored] mood, right?

A whole newsgroup full of people passing judgment based on inaccurate and
incomplete reading of what I actually wrote tends to do that to me.

I now expect another round of out-of-context quotes and further defense of
the exact sort of judgementalism and snobbery I'm being accused of.

This newsgroup really has gone to the mob.

RichC

Bill Sornson said:

Kristian M Zoerhoff said:

Saw another one tonight, and I can confirm that this one is reformed!

I was riding back home on my usual loop, around sunset (8:00PM),
clipping along on the last few blocks towards the house. Ahead of me,
against the setting sun, I caught sight of a cyclist coming at me,
hugging the curb line [1]. As I got to about 50 ft or so out, I let
out a firm "Ride to the right, please," complete with a point to the
other side of the road. Since I was closing fast, she held her line
[2], and as we got to about 10 ft apart, she responded: "Thanks!". As
I passed her, I returned a hearty "Thank /you/!", and noticed in my
mirror that she did indeed cross over to the correct side of the
road. Huzzah!

What I've noticed about almost every wrong-way rider is that they stay to
their left even in passing situations. IOW, even though they're /facing/
traffic, I'm the one who ends up "forced" out into the lane more than I'd
normally be. (I usually choose that anyway, of course, in order to stay out
of the door zone; but it seems like curious logic and inconsiderate
behavior.)

Are we getting a sudden influx of British tourists, perhaps?
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Rich Clark said:

A whole newsgroup full of people passing judgment based on inaccurate and
incomplete reading of what I actually wrote tends to do that to me.

If you are misunderstood, one might instead impugn ones own failure to
communicate in a clear matter. Or at least in addition to.

Quoted message said:

I now expect another round of out-of-context quotes and further defense of
the exact sort of judgementalism and snobbery I'm being accused of.

Well, you know one correct response would be to killfile the thread and
not respond. If you judge others are engaging in infantile dispute, the
last thing you should do is keep coming back and adding fuel to the
fire.

Quoted message said:

This newsgroup really has gone to the mob.

This sort of "wounded me" post does not help matters. Notice I didn't
participate in the thread, I don't really care enough about the subject
at hand to do more than say "meh". The first step to a civil discourse
is to put forth civil discourse.

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
You have only to mumble a few words in church to get married and few words
in your sleep to get divorced.

There is a wrong way rider for whom I have no sympathy but then the
sympathy might be for me in the event that it comes to a collision.
There are safety minded riders who will lecture on the wrong way
subject but not realize that they do a far more dangerous maneuver
when climbing steep hills by zig-zagging from side to side across a
curvy mountain road, or using the left side of a right hand bend to
avoid the extra steep part on the inside.

I was once descending at a brisk pace, something that in itself is
hazardous (of which I am aware). For those familiar with Page Mill
Road, a great descent in the Santa Cruz Mountains, let me describe the
location. In single file, I and a friend passed Moody Road, after
which there is a short 20% dip into a left hand bend. As we entered
the section two Western Wheelers of a weekend group ride took that
curve wide side-by-side about four feet apart (on the left side of the
road) because they could easily hear that no car was approaching.

What they could not hear was that two bicyclists were approaching at a
speed that could have made a serious collision. Knowing that the
first instinct of such people is to return to the correct side of the
road, and that their speed made this impossible without blocking our
path, I chose another tactic. Because they had not yet seen us, I
shouted in my most commanding voice "DON'T MOVE" and fortunately they
froze in place, allowing us to zip between them. The passage was damn
close. Meanwhile, one of the other six or eight riders who followed
on the correct side of the road commented loudly that "look they
aren't wearing helmets."

Priorities!

Jobst Brandt

[email hidden] wrote:

[snip]

:: What they could not hear was that two bicyclists were approaching at
:: a speed that could have made a serious collision. Knowing that the
:: first instinct of such people is to return to the correct side of the
:: road, and that their speed made this impossible without blocking our
:: path, I chose another tactic. Because they had not yet seen us, I
:: shouted in my most commanding voice "DON'T MOVE" and fortunately they
:: froze in place, allowing us to zip between them. The passage was
:: damn close. Meanwhile, one of the other six or eight riders who
:: followed on the correct side of the road commented loudly that "look
:: they aren't wearing helmets."
::
:: Priorities!

Good tale!