Polite wrong-way riders

Wayne Pein said:

Roger Zoul said:

Not correcting or otherwise actively trying to change wrong behavior is
being complicit in that wrong behavior. Correct way riding may be
setting the appropriate example, but haven't all wrong way riders seen
somebody riding correctly before? One would think that if setting a good
example were enough there would be no wrong way riding. One need not be
rude to convey the message. It is dangerous to oneself and to others to
ride the wrong way, so it should be actively discouraged. "Shielding" a
wrong way rider from further harm from motor traffic is actively
condoning wrong way riding.

Wayne

There is a large territory that occupies the space between
"correcting" wrong behaviour and being confrontational. I'm all for
education but have a pretty dim view of forcing behaviour through
physical coercion.

I don't know if the concept still is taught but 45 years ago when I was
taking driver's ed in high school the main focus of the course was
defensive driving. The idea was that there are lots of folks out on the
road doing unsafe things and that the smartest way to drive was in a
defensive mode. That is, anticipating other's actions and always trying
to leave yourself an "out." I ride my bike the same way. I doubt that
many folks who are educated via confrontation and/or intimidation
learn good behaviour from the experience.

gds said:

I don't know if the concept still is taught but 45 years ago when I was
taking driver's ed in high school the main focus of the course was
defensive driving. The idea was that there are lots of folks out on the
road doing unsafe things and that the smartest way to drive was in a
defensive mode. That is, anticipating other's actions and always trying
to leave yourself an "out." I ride my bike the same way. I doubt that
many folks who are educated via confrontation and/or intimidation
learn good behaviour from the experience.

I still remember about last August when a Plano, TX cyclist died after
crashing head on into another rider. They were both apparently
experienced riders. I don't know any more of the facts, but do know
that I would never intentionally block the path of another cyclist to
try and make a point or teach them a lesson. The possibility for
unintended consequences is much too great.

"Ken C. M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well this may or may not fit in with this topic, but out of all the people
I see while riding, whether riding to the right, or coming straight at me,
the 'older' than me folks seem to the nicest people.

The most rude / inpolite people are the casual 20 somethings.

Funny, I have had the exact opposite experience. It is usually the older
crowd who is rude.

Wayne Pein wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::
:::::
::::: Your behavior condones, rather than discourages, the practice of
::::: ww riding.
:::
::: I disagree. Riding on the wrong side of the road condones WW
::: riding. Riding on the right side of the road encourgages RW riding.
::: Being rude is just being rude.
:::
::
:: Not correcting or otherwise actively trying to change wrong behavior
:: is being complicit in that wrong behavior. Correct way riding may be
:: setting the appropriate example, but haven't all wrong way riders
:: seen somebody riding correctly before? One would think that if
:: setting a good example were enough there would be no wrong way
:: riding. One need not be rude to convey the message. It is dangerous
:: to oneself and to others to ride the wrong way, so it should be
:: actively discouraged. "Shielding" a wrong way rider from further
:: harm from motor traffic is actively condoning wrong way riding.

Sorry, Wayne, but I consider this nonsense. But you're obviously free to
confront any WW rider you encounter. Live long and propser!

Roger Zoul said:

Wayne Pein wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::
:::::
::::: Your behavior condones, rather than discourages, the practice of
::::: ww riding.
:::
::: I disagree. Riding on the wrong side of the road condones WW
::: riding. Riding on the right side of the road encourgages RW riding.
::: Being rude is just being rude.
:::
::
:: Not correcting or otherwise actively trying to change wrong behavior
:: is being complicit in that wrong behavior. Correct way riding may be
:: setting the appropriate example, but haven't all wrong way riders
:: seen somebody riding correctly before? One would think that if
:: setting a good example were enough there would be no wrong way
:: riding. One need not be rude to convey the message. It is dangerous
:: to oneself and to others to ride the wrong way, so it should be
:: actively discouraged. "Shielding" a wrong way rider from further
:: harm from motor traffic is actively condoning wrong way riding.

Sorry, Wayne, but I consider this nonsense. But you're obviously free to
confront any WW rider you encounter. Live long and propser!

Roger,

Don't be just a keyboard confronter. You can muster the courage to tell
someone their wrong way riding is nonsense!

Wayne

gds said:

There is a large territory that occupies the space between
"correcting" wrong behaviour and being confrontational. I'm all for
education but have a pretty dim view of forcing behaviour through
physical coercion.

The US MUTCD has standardized signs intended to direct WWRs to ride
properly. You can see an example here
http://www.trafficsign.us/650/reg/r5-1b.gif. They go on the back side
of other traffic signs so they will be primarily seen by the WWRs. This
is probably the best way to passively educate these people. Of course,
it requires convincing your municipality to spend money on the signs.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Wayne Pein said:

You can muster the courage to tell
someone their wrong way riding is nonsense!

Maybe I can muster the courage to suggest to the USA they
should consider heeding UN resolutions. But I'm pretty
sure I'd get the same basic response: "Nobody tells /me/
what to do!"

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Wayne Pein said:

Don't be just a keyboard confronter. You can muster the courage to tell
someone their wrong way riding is nonsense!

A WW rider and I exchanged glances today. Mine was a inquisitive
raised eyebrow. Hers was a sheepish, "yeah, but" sort of shrug.

I knew what she was going to do as I've often seen people use a
similar tactic, ie. riding counter flow a short distance before
turning.

She was just using a break in traffic to facilitate a left turn that
can otherwise be somewhat daunting. She used the bicycle's
superiority to her advantage and that's okay by me.

It's one of those situations where the streets don't line up. To
continue southbound you have to either go east or west a half block.
I usually head east and then south very briefly before doubling back
westbound in the back lane (alley) parallel to the street from which
I'd have been making a left turn that is often problematic due to the
timing of traffic lights.

I'd rather ride the block out of my way than fuddle around riding
counter flow. She may not have yet figured it out but her look
suggested that she's not normally a WW rider. We were both going
places so didn't have time to argue protocol or discuss alternatives.
--
zk

Rich Clark said:

It is my practice, when circumstances and my state of mind allow, to
actually /stop/ and plant myself diagonally so that the wrong-way rider must
veer into the oncoming traffic lane. This often creates opportunities for
interesting dialogue.

RichC

Gee, that's a really good idea. We should all follow your example in
all things. I think the next time I'm sitting at a red light in a car
and I see a cyclist illegally "filtering" their way past me by either
lane splitting or riding in the gutter, I'll just fling open a door or
maybe squeeze over to impede their progress. If they get hurt I won't
be held liable or even feel badly about their injury because it will be
a result of their traffic violation, right?

Regards,
Bob Hunt

In article <[email hidden]>,

amakyonin said:

The US MUTCD has standardized signs intended to direct WWRs to ride
properly. You can see an example here
http://www.trafficsign.us/650/reg/r5-1b.gif.

The site is under re-construction, so a lot of the links are being
redirected. Here's the working link (for the moment, anyway) to the
sign you speak of:

http://www.trafficsign.us/r5.html

Dan

Wayneg Pein said:

Quoted message said:

I'm surprised what self righteous zealots raise their heads here.
I though that was a traffic style peculiar to Germany where "Wer
hat Recht" is a constant proclivity.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My response to such wrong-way riders is to keep left so the
opposing rider is NOT exposed to double jeopardy as the above
method does with malice. After all, this is a fellow citizen with
no evil intent.

Quoted message said:

Lack of evil intent does not negate dangerous behavior. Such wrong
way riders at night have nearly taken me out, and here there are
many high speed hills.

Quoted message said:

Your behavior condones, rather than discourages, the practice of ww
riding.

RIGHT! Right on and teach them a lesson! You probably cannot imagine
a situation where riding down the wrong side of a street might be
necessary or reasonable. I can and have done so on divided road
arterials where I needed to go a couple of blocks on the side I was
on.

Those of us who have ridden in motor free traffic zones know that
pedestrians and bicyclists get along well without a right hand rule. A
great example is the nearby university campus where there no longer
are stop signs and center stripes (from former days) in the car free
center of the campus. I can see the wreck.bike righteous ones would
not survive there for the helter-skelter traffic, yet it works. Oh
yes, and they don't even wear helmets as they go to classes.

Most major cities in Europe no longer allow motor vehicles in their
centers and riding where one pleases is the common mode. Don't travel
if you want to keep your righteous riding above reproach.

Jobst Brandt

Wayne Pein said:

Don't be just a keyboard confronter. You can muster the courage to tell
someone their wrong way riding is nonsense!

Wayne

If you mean we should all "confront" others about their behavior in
traffic, you're confusing a lack of commonsense with courage. You are
responsible for what *you* do in traffic, not what others do.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Rich Clark said:

It is my practice, when circumstances and my state of mind allow, to
actually /stop/ and plant myself diagonally so that the wrong-way rider
must
veer into the oncoming traffic lane. This often creates opportunities for
interesting dialogue.

RichC

Gee, that's a really good idea. We should all follow your example in
all things. I think the next time I'm sitting at a red light in a car
and I see a cyclist illegally "filtering" their way past me by either
lane splitting or riding in the gutter, I'll just fling open a door or
maybe squeeze over to impede their progress. If they get hurt I won't
be held liable or even feel badly about their injury because it will be
a result of their traffic violation, right?

I'm surprised that so many people never stopped to visualize this scenario
before condemning it.

1) When I do this, it gives me an opportunity to get out of the WWR's way in
a situation that would be much more hazardous at speed on a busy city
street. I can just step up onto the curb, instead of letting the crash
happen if nobody cedes the right of way.

2) WWR's are almost always going relatively slowly. You can see them coming
and decide what you want to do about it.

3) Saying something to a WWR when passing at speed is ineffective. There's
not enough time to say anything meaningful. From a stop, your window of
opportunity is longer.

My personal experience is that WWRs are the most dangerous vehicles on the
road, measured by the number of times I've actually been endangered. I
usually have to deal with from 2 to 6 of them daily in my Philadelphia
commute. This is not a trivial matter to me, and I want these people to
remember the message that they're just as dangerous and stupid as a car
driving the wrong way on a street.

And Bob, it may interest you to know that a significant percentage of the
wrong-way riders I encounter in downtown Philadelphia are cops. And if you
think my attempts, either via conversations or letter-writing, to encourage
change in the cycling behavior of the Philadelphia bike patrol have met with
anything but hostility and downright threats, you may have lost touch with
the psyche of your urban brethren.

RichC

Rich Clark said:

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Rich Clark said:

It is my practice, when circumstances and my state of mind allow, to
actually /stop/ and plant myself diagonally so that the wrong-way rider
must
veer into the oncoming traffic lane. This often creates opportunities for
interesting dialogue.

RichC

Gee, that's a really good idea. We should all follow your example in
all things. I think the next time I'm sitting at a red light in a car
and I see a cyclist illegally "filtering" their way past me by either
lane splitting or riding in the gutter, I'll just fling open a door or
maybe squeeze over to impede their progress. If they get hurt I won't
be held liable or even feel badly about their injury because it will be
a result of their traffic violation, right?

I'm surprised that so many people never stopped to visualize this scenario
before condemning it.

Perhaps we have visualized or even witnessed the scenario and that's
precisely *why* we condemn it.

Quoted message said:

1) When I do this, it gives me an opportunity to get out of the WWR's way in
a situation that would be much more hazardous at speed on a busy city
street. I can just step up onto the curb, instead of letting the crash
happen if nobody cedes the right of way.

Either your bike must be different than any other bike ever built or
your idea of "diagonally" is different than anyone else's. The widest
part of a bike- not including panniers- is the handlebar. IIRC, the
bars on my road bike are 44 CM. That bike is also roughly five feet
long. How can placing it on a diagonal make it narrower than 44 CM and
how is it faster to drag a five foot long object out of the way than it
would be to do likewise with a roughly two foot long (wide) object?

Quoted message said:

2) WWR's are almost always going relatively slowly. You can see them coming
and decide what you want to do about it.

Using this logic, those cyclists filtering their way through traffic
are also generally slow-moving so they can just stop. If they don't,
too bad.

Quoted message said:

3) Saying something to a WWR when passing at speed is ineffective. There's
not enough time to say anything meaningful. From a stop, your window of
opportunity is longer.

When passing at speed? But you just said they are moving slowly.

Quoted message said:

My personal experience is that WWRs are the most dangerous vehicles on the
road, measured by the number of times I've actually been endangered. I
usually have to deal with from 2 to 6 of them daily in my Philadelphia
commute. This is not a trivial matter to me, and I want these people to
remember the message that they're just as dangerous and stupid as a car
driving the wrong way on a street.

As stupid? Yes. As dangerous? No. Otherwise you'd be blocking wrong way
*cars* with your body and bike. You're way off if you think you are
making sure they remember your message. In all likelihood what they'll
remember is the arrogant jerk that blocked their way.

Quoted message said:

And Bob, it may interest you to know that a significant percentage of the
wrong-way riders I encounter in downtown Philadelphia are cops. And if you
think my attempts, either via conversations or letter-writing, to encourage
change in the cycling behavior of the Philadelphia bike patrol have met with
anything but hostility and downright threats, you may have lost touch with
the psyche of your urban brethren.

While I can think of any number of reasons for a bike patrol officer to
ride the wrong way on a street unless those reasons are present they
should be riding correctly and legally. Of course, if one or more of
those reasons *are* present when a good citizen tries to correct their
riding I could see the response might be interpreted to be hostile. As
for my losing touch with the "psyche of my urban brethren", unless you
spend at least 50 hours a week in the company of cops I'd say I have a
better opportunity than you to judge the cop psyche. If you meant that
"big city" cops are different than those I deal with daily, the last
time I looked Chicago had roughly twice the population of Philadelphia
in about 3/4 of the land area.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

"Tom Keats" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Maybe I can muster the courage to suggest to the USA they
should consider heeding UN resolutions. But I'm pretty
sure I'd get the same basic response: "Nobody tells /me/
what to do!"

I wish the US had the courage to tell the UN where to stick it.

Rich Clark said:

3) Saying something to a WWR when passing at speed is ineffective. There's
not enough time to say anything meaningful. From a stop, your window of
opportunity is longer.

I disagree. Sometimes I'll simply say "wrong way" in a normal tone of
voice as we pass. You don't need to deliver a lecture or treat it as an
emergency. The last time I remember doing that the other rider replied
"I know". As Jobst and others point out, frequently riders are going
wrong-way on purpose, especially when confronted with urban grids that
don't accommodate bicycles well. You shouldn't assume ignorance. For
those who truly are ignorant, there's a reasonable chance that they are
sure *you* are riding the wrong way. I'm not big on the idea of
conducting traffic training as I ride around.

A similar issue is warning another rider when you pass. I was criticized
by another cyclist for not doing this one time -- he was irate and
yelled for me to stop, whereupon he began the lecture. I explained to
him why I disagreed. He had assumed ignorance on my part. I had the tact
not to reveal that I never "warn" riders who seem sketchy, because of
their unpredictable responses, the category in which I had included him.

"Rich Clark" wrote: (clip) I usually have to deal with from 2 to 6 of them
daily in my Philadelphia commute. (clip) it may interest you to know that a
significant percentage of the wrong-way riders I encounter in downtown
Philadelphia are cops. And if you think my attempts, either via
conversations or letter-writing, to encourage change in the cycling
behavior of the Philadelphia bike patrol have met with anything but
hostility and downright threats, you may have lost touch with the psyche of
your urban brethren.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Rich, you have shown us that your ability to persuade, even in this
newsgroup, where words can be carefully chosen, and ideas fully considered,
is not great. How are you doing on your one-man wrong-way-riding gutter
crusade in Philadelphia? Not too well, I guess. You encounter half a dozen
cases a day, and now even the cops are mad at you. Why don't you just
relax, ride your bike, and let nature take its course?

Quoted message said:

Wayne Pein said:

Lack of evil intent does not negate dangerous behavior. Such wrong
way riders at night have nearly taken me out, and here there are
many high speed hills.

Quoted message said:

Your behavior condones, rather than discourages, the practice of ww
riding.

RIGHT! Right on and teach them a lesson! You probably cannot imagine
a situation where riding down the wrong side of a street might be
necessary or reasonable. I can and have done so on divided road
arterials where I needed to go a couple of blocks on the side I was
on.

Of course I can imagine it. Quit the conjecture.

Quoted message said:

Those of us who have ridden in motor free traffic zones know that
pedestrians and bicyclists get along well without a right hand rule. A
great example is the nearby university campus where there no longer
are stop signs and center stripes (from former days) in the car free
center of the campus. I can see the wreck.bike righteous ones would
not survive there for the helter-skelter traffic, yet it works. Oh
yes, and they don't even wear helmets as they go to classes.

Most major cities in Europe no longer allow motor vehicles in their
centers and riding where one pleases is the common mode. Don't travel
if you want to keep your righteous riding above reproach.

The issue of wrong way riding that most of us seem to discussing in this
thread is on American streets that have rules for which side to ride on.
We are not talking about "helter-skelter" where bicyclists must ride
close to pedestrian speed and avoid chaos.

Wayne

Bob said:

Wayne Pein said:

Don't be just a keyboard confronter. You can muster the courage to tell
someone their wrong way riding is nonsense!

Wayne

If you mean we should all "confront" others about their behavior in
traffic, you're confusing a lack of commonsense with courage. You are
responsible for what *you* do in traffic, not what others do.

Having nearly been taken out several times by wrong way night riders, I
can justify my approach.

Wayne

Raoul Duke said:

"Tom Keats" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Maybe I can muster the courage to suggest to the USA they
should consider heeding UN resolutions. But I'm pretty
sure I'd get the same basic response: "Nobody tells /me/
what to do!"

Quoted message said:

I wish the US had the courage to tell the UN where to stick it.

Instead it's likely going to reward it with brand spankin' new HQs.
Pathetic.