Played with the Sram levers

Thanks for the update. I'm hoping that this group offers another real
option when my current steed turns 10 or so and needs an upgrade.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Local racer that have them came in and I played with them a little.
very neat levers, short positive shifting, clean.

Does anyone know if SRAM is going to create a Flightdeck/ErgoBrain
competitor?

-a

--
Alan Hoyle - [email hidden] - http://www.alanhoyle.com/
"I don't want the world, I just want your half." -TMBG
Get Horizontal, Play Ultimate.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Just the levers, derailleurs and brakes. I get to take a lever apart
next week. Lennard Zinn tells me they are rebuildable. Altho nothing on
the group is made in the USA, it is the first USA company to make a
road group-Bravo!!

SRAM is headquartered in Chicago, but its roots are in Germany with
the company Fichtel & Sachs, one of the foremost makers of clutches
and other driveline compoents in the world. SRAM was spun off from
F&S in the '80s. The bike product line development is done in the US
now despite the fact that Mannesmann is apparently still the majority
owner.

Quoted message said:

To get some of the components, some bike resellers are going to have to
strip complete bikes as OEM is the only way to get this stuff well into
2007.

I'm sure this is part of the strategy; keep the installations limited
to bikes with known features and characteristics (and competent
assembly) while the reputation gets established, and then let the bits
loose to the punters who will misinstall them.

Quoted message said:

But I think in 2007, we 'may' have a Parlee or Look with a Sram gruppo
on it...along side Campag(of course) and shimano. I think this is gona
take a piece outta shimano...it seems very Campag like shifting, w/o
the thumb button and OEM in a big way.

The big thing will be the price and durability; as long as they don't
turn out to be two-race pieces, then the last hurdle will be cost. If
SRAM can get them to the aftermarket at a point below the apparently
comparable Shimano bits, I think we may see some shift in the sales.
There are certainly plenty of people around who have been unhappy with
Shimano for various reasons (not all well-founded), and SRAM could be
poised to capitalize on that.

Meanwhile, Campy has those new Ergo flat-bar shifters announced, and
I'm waiting to see what the price tag looks like. This could be the
start of a Campy foray into the atb class at last.

Now, if some of the Chinese no-international-recognition firms could
get some development in gear, and come up with some durable and
reliable (as opposed to works-wrong-forever) shifting systems and such
(preferably with interbrand compatibility somehow), we might actually
see some challenges to the Shimanese Hegemony.

--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Alan Hoyle said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Local racer that have them came in and I played with them a little.
very neat levers, short positive shifting, clean.

Does anyone know if SRAM is going to create a Flightdeck/ErgoBrain
competitor?

One step at a time; I'm sure that's planned, but they need to lay the
foundations with a proven road group line before they start adding
bells and whistles. They *have* a road group, now it has to become a
*proven* group.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack said:

Meanwhile, Campy has those new Ergo flat-bar shifters announced,
and I'm waiting to see what the price tag looks like.

Does Campagnolo still not understand the idea of product numbers,
i.e. how can one tell if an offer is the 2006 or the 2005 line?

--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer

I thought SRAM was founded to sell GripShift, initially a road-oriented
bar-end shifter. I remember them sending reps to local road races with
demo units in the late '80s. My conception was that they were wholly
unaffiliated with Fichtel and Sachs at that time, and bought F&S's
bicycle component business in 1997.

This link supports my understanding:
http://www.sram.com/en/about/history.php

Do you have other information?

Thanks,

Jason

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Just the levers, derailleurs and brakes. I get to take a lever apart
next week. Lennard Zinn tells me they are rebuildable.

Now THAT is something. I have one Ultegra 9 Speed right shifter, one
Ultegra 9 speed left shifter, and one Dura Ace 10 speed right shifter
sitting my shop as I type, each with some internal failure after a
fair but not ungodly number of miles on them. I have been told that
they are not rebuildable and/or not cost effectively rebuildable, and
therefore trash. That's some damned expensive trash.

Quoted message said:

I thought SRAM was founded to sell GripShift, initially a road-oriented
bar-end shifter. I remember them sending reps to local road races with
demo units in the late '80s. My conception was that they were wholly
unaffiliated with Fichtel and Sachs at that time, and bought F&S's
bicycle component business in 1997.

This link supports my understanding:
http://www.sram.com/en/about/history.php

Do you have other information?

No, but it appears that what I'd heard from nth-hand sources was
largely either wrong or garbled.

Sachs-Huret was founded in the US in 1985 to market Sachs' bike
products, while SRAM started off in 1987 to try to sell its own
product (as you said, Gripshift, with just a handful of people, as the
history notes). From the dearth of Huret kit seen on bikes of that
era, it's pretty obvious that the Sachs-Huret marketing effort didn't
have a lot of success. With SRAM's ownership and interest, the merged
tech and expanded manufacturing created a better line then either had
previously.

In checking, I see that I was incorrect about the Mannesmann
connection, and Mannesmann apparently dropped out of the Sachs picture
altogether when ZF acquired Sachs. I was doubly wrong about the
Mannesmann connection in fact; it appears that Mannesmann didn't want
the bike division of F&S to begin with, which is apparently how SRAM
ended up with it. SRAM appears to have done well with the increased
manufacturing capacity and broader product line.

I know that at one time, Sachs had complete bikes in their product
line as well as components. SRAM appears to have decided that this
isn't their cup of tea, and it's probably just as well.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Altho nothing on the group is made in the USA, it is the first USA
company to make a road group-Bravo!!

Horsepucky !!!

The first USA company to make a Road Group was "Schwinn-Approved" Corp ! ! !

Sheesh !!

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

On 12 Apr 2006 18:59:15 -0700, [email hidden] (Donald Gillies)

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Altho nothing on the group is made in the USA, it is the first USA
company to make a road group-Bravo!!

Horsepucky !!!

The first USA company to make a Road Group was "Schwinn-Approved" Corp ! ! !

You'll probably have to go back a lot farther than that to find the
real "first US group", though I doubt that "groups" as such were part
of the plan in the first quarter of the 20th century.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack said:

On 12 Apr 2006 18:59:15 -0700, [email hidden] (Donald Gillies)

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Altho nothing on the group is made in the USA, it is the first USA
company to make a road group-Bravo!!

Horsepucky !!!

The first USA company to make a Road Group was "Schwinn-Approved" Corp ! ! !

You'll probably have to go back a lot farther than that to find the
real "first US group", though I doubt that "groups" as such were part
of the plan in the first quarter of the 20th century.
--

ISTR a boxed set of Wald "components" sold as the "Gruppo Waldo" in the
late-'70's timeframe. Probably a collectors item now.

Jeff

Werehatrack wrote:
---snip---

Quoted message said:

I know that at one time, Sachs had complete bikes in their product
line as well as components. SRAM appears to have decided that this
isn't their cup of tea, and it's probably just as well.

---/snip---

IIRC, Sachs got together with Campy and marketed a couple of road
groups - new success, and something else. They were pretty groovy;
ergo shifters with Shimano 8 cable pull/spacing.

They also had a few MTB groups that were sucked up in the SRAM
consolidation. At the time, SRAM was making mild mannered 8s MTB
components, while Sachs had their funky DiRT mechs. SRAM seemed to
adopt a lot of the Sachs design philosophy in their next gen
dee-railers, at least in the styling department.

SYJ said:

Werehatrack wrote:
---snip---

Quoted message said:

I know that at one time, Sachs had complete bikes in their product
line as well as components. SRAM appears to have decided that this
isn't their cup of tea, and it's probably just as well.

---/snip---

IIRC, Sachs got together with Campy and marketed a couple of road
groups - new success, and something else. They were pretty groovy;
ergo shifters with Shimano 8 cable pull/spacing.

There used to be a lot of that stuff around. I guess it worked just like
8sp Campy, but some of the parts were pretty clunky looking and heavy,
particularly the cranks.

Quoted message said:

They also had a few MTB groups that were sucked up in the SRAM
consolidation. At the time, SRAM was making mild mannered 8s MTB
components, while Sachs had their funky DiRT mechs. SRAM seemed to
adopt a lot of the Sachs design philosophy in their next gen
dee-railers, at least in the styling department.

Actually the "Quartz" MTB stuff was really nice. Sachs' twist shifters
worked well, with a lighter, smoother, quieter action than the Gripshift
ones. It was expensive though, and hard to find.

Gripshift/SRAM stuff works great. The double cable pull is a good idea,
actually an improvement. It shifts more reliably than Shimano. But
it's all so ugly and plasticky. It probably holds up fine, but who wants
that plasticky looking junk on their bike.

Do the new SRAM road derailers use the double cable pull, or a more
standard pull, like Shimano and Campy?

Matt O.

SYJ said:

Werehatrack wrote:
---snip---

Quoted message said:

I know that at one time, Sachs had complete bikes in their product
line as well as components. SRAM appears to have decided that this
isn't their cup of tea, and it's probably just as well.

---/snip---

IIRC, Sachs got together with Campy and marketed a couple of road
groups - new success, and something else. They were pretty groovy;
ergo shifters with Shimano 8 cable pull/spacing.

That's what I thought for years, but Sachs and Campa shifters have the
same cablepull.

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

Matt O'Toole said:

There used to be a lot of that stuff around. I guess it worked just like
8sp Campy, but some of the parts were pretty clunky looking and heavy,
particularly the cranks.

New Success cranks were standard Campagnolo. IMHO biggest problem were
the derailleurs made from a very weak cast aluminium (as in breaking
when you tighten the cablepinchbolt!)

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

Alan Hoyle said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Local racer that have them came in and I played with them a little.
very neat levers, short positive shifting, clean.

Does anyone know if SRAM is going to create a Flightdeck/ErgoBrain
competitor?

Doubt it as I think both are a very expensive answer to a pretty simple
question.

Quoted message said:

-a

--
Alan Hoyle - [email hidden] - http://www.alanhoyle.com/
"I don't want the world, I just want your half." -TMBG
Get Horizontal, Play Ultimate.

Matt O'Toole said:

SYJ said:

Werehatrack wrote:
---snip---

Quoted message said:

I know that at one time, Sachs had complete bikes in their product
line as well as components. SRAM appears to have decided that this
isn't their cup of tea, and it's probably just as well.

---/snip---

IIRC, Sachs got together with Campy and marketed a couple of road
groups - new success, and something else. They were pretty groovy;
ergo shifters with Shimano 8 cable pull/spacing.

There used to be a lot of that stuff around. I guess it worked just like
8sp Campy, but some of the parts were pretty clunky looking and heavy,
particularly the cranks.

Quoted message said:

They also had a few MTB groups that were sucked up in the SRAM
consolidation. At the time, SRAM was making mild mannered 8s MTB
components, while Sachs had their funky DiRT mechs. SRAM seemed to
adopt a lot of the Sachs design philosophy in their next gen
dee-railers, at least in the styling department.

Actually the "Quartz" MTB stuff was really nice. Sachs' twist shifters
worked well, with a lighter, smoother, quieter action than the Gripshift
ones. It was expensive though, and hard to find.

Gripshift/SRAM stuff works great. The double cable pull is a good idea,
actually an improvement. It shifts more reliably than Shimano. But
it's all so ugly and plasticky. It probably holds up fine, but who wants
that plasticky looking junk on their bike.

Do the new SRAM road derailers use the double cable pull, or a more
standard pull, like Shimano and Campy?

RD is very similar to the MTB one altho I don't know about actual
dimensions and intercompatibility. Like the MTB one, it does not rotate
'forward', is held in place to not hit the right chainstay but falling
on this, may break it. Also the barrell adjuster, missing and on the
lever of MTB triggers, is actually pointed down, so a really long der
housing is required to keep it from kinking(the one I saw was too
short-ahhh, team wrenches).

Quoted message said:

Matt O.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Quoted message said:

Does anyone know if SRAM is going to create a Flightdeck/ErgoBrain
competitor?

Doubt it as I think both are a very expensive answer to a pretty simple
question.

Yea, pity they work so well. Really, really like my ErgoBrain.

On 12 Apr 2006 19:44:43 -0700, "JeffWills" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Werehatrack said:

On 12 Apr 2006 18:59:15 -0700, [email hidden] (Donald Gillies)

Quoted message said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> writes:

> Altho nothing on the group is made in the USA, it is the first USA
>company to make a road group-Bravo!!

Horsepucky !!!

The first USA company to make a Road Group was "Schwinn-Approved" Corp ! ! !

You'll probably have to go back a lot farther than that to find the
real "first US group", though I doubt that "groups" as such were part
of the plan in the first quarter of the 20th century.
--

ISTR a boxed set of Wald "components" sold as the "Gruppo Waldo" in the
late-'70's timeframe. Probably a collectors item now.

And where's Wald-o now?

(Sorry, it was too obvious.)
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.