Plateau in FTP?

rmur17 said:

Just wondering lately how folks in general have (or have not) felt during the onset of a significant training plateau.

Over what period of time? Over years, over one season, or over just months?

Steve_B said:

Over what period of time? Over years, over one season, or over just months?

I'm thinking at least several months ... could you tell it was coming or did progress just stop suddenly etc?

rmur17 said:

I'm thinking at least several months ... could you tell it was coming or did progress just stop suddenly etc?

I'll take a stab at this since FTP is my only focus this year.

I have a back injury that's going to prevent me from sprinting, getting aero in anyway, and thus any racing. So i'm going to use the year to raise my FTP which is my weekest point. Last year i did a MAP test and got 325w, this year i got 425w. Last year my FTP was 255, this year it's 285.

I think over the course of a couple of months you'll get stressed trying to track your FTP and may even end up overtrainning if you worry about it to much. Of course i was always checking my FTP from races, and doing my 2x20 workouts, but overall i think it's best to really step back and look at the big picture, check your FTP in a bi-annual basis, a month after getting back on the bike (part way thru base), and near the end of the season just before you start to burn out.

I'm hoping to see my FTP up to 300-305w by june or august if i put in the time.

Everyone has a different plateau, so as you get closer to yours i'm sure you see the law of diminishing returns..... hopefully mine is around 400 something though 😄

But seriously plateauing can also be when you just get burned out, i know around july last yar i had trouble pushing 285w for 20mins, now after a fall of light commuting and after spending dec and jan getting my legs awake i can do 300w for 20mins. So there is definitly some large scale recovery that needs to take place from one season to the next.

rmur17 said:

Did progress stop suddenly, gradually, regress, see-saw?

I'm possibly not a good person to answer this because I've only seen this over short periods of time.

I've seen this over brief periods (over the course of a month or six weeks) when I was doing basically the same old, same old training that I had been doing since the beginning of the year and (presumably) I reached a physical/mental saturation point. I seem to come out of it if I cut myself some slack, take a break and then resume at some level that I can handle.

OTOH, I have this sort of "diesel like" or "roaring train" characteristic to my 20m power. At some point in the year, usually around July, I could stop specific training for threshold (2x20's, etc.) and it will continue to climb through September, I guess because my riding volume is enough to keep it up. This comes at about the time when 2x20's are getting old anyway so it works out well. 🙂 I only mention this because maybe you are continuing to gain fitness even though you don't see it now.

Perhaps you need to change up your training for a little while. You do a lot of indoor training at this time of year and maybe your stagnation is partially mental?

Steve_B said:

I'm possibly not a good person to answer this because I've only seen this over short periods of time.

I've seen this over brief periods (over the course of a month or six weeks) when I was doing basically the same old, same old training that I had been doing since the beginning of the year and (presumably) I reached a physical/mental saturation point. I seem to come out of it if I cut myself some slack, take a break and then resume at some level that I can handle.

OTOH, I have this sort of "diesel like" or "roaring train" characteristic to my 20m power. At some point in the year, usually around July, I could stop specific training for threshold (2x20's, etc.) and it will continue to climb through September, I guess because my riding volume is enough to keep it up. This comes at about the time when 2x20's are getting old anyway so it works out well. 🙂 I only mention this because maybe you are continuing to gain fitness even though you don't see it now.

Perhaps you need to change up your training for a little while. You do a lot of indoor training at this time of year and maybe your stagnation is partially mental?

thanks for the comments Steve. Actually I've been very lucky to be on an "FTP roll" at least in my experience for several months now. When I posted, I'd just checked my training log and since late Sept (without any end of season break) I've been on virtually the same L4 weekly training routine for 22 weeks now. FTP has been slowly but steadily gaining thru that period without any regression or even a sense it's about to slow. Seems a little too good to last.

So it's more of a pre-emptive strike I'm trying to make -- possibly wishful thinking!

I've been doing an average of ten hours/wk since Jan. 1st - all indoors right now. Intensity mostly upper L3 to upper L4 with only a smidgen of L5 to taste.

rmur17 said:

I'm thinking at least several months ... could you tell it was coming or did progress just stop suddenly etc?

Gains slow and then stop fast. Usually you don't go backwards.

This is when you need to get your testosterone checked. Tell the doc that you have not had a sex drive in over a year and he'll order the blood work.

A block of VO2 work can help get things going again if your T level is good.

Try two days in a row...day one 5 minute intervals at about 113% FTP...day two 3 minute intervals at 117-120 if you can. If you can't then keep the power at 113 and only rest 2 minutes between efforts.
Day three do Tempo at 85% FTP.

The next day do a recovery day and then a day off.

Saturday do a tough team ride and tell yourself that you WILL be doing "some" structured VO2 max work in the ride.
Next day is a recovery day before staring the block again.

Do this for three weeks and then take a recovery week. Then try your threshold power again.

TiMan said:

Gains slow and then stop fast. Usually you don't go backwards.

This is when you need to get your testosterone checked. Tell the doc that you have not had a sex drive in over a year and he'll order the blood work.

A block of VO2 work can help get things going again if your T level is good.

Try two days in a row...day one 5 minute intervals at about 113% FTP...day two 3 minute intervals at 117-120 if you can. If you can't then keep the power at 113 and only rest 2 minutes between efforts.
Day three do Tempo at 85% FTP.

The next day do a recovery day and then a day off.

Saturday do a tough team ride and tell yourself that you WILL be doing "some" structured VO2 max work in the ride.
Next day is a recovery day before staring the block again.

Do this for three weeks and then take a recovery week. Then try your threshold power again.

ouch sounds painful but I'm sure it could give the ole system a nice kick in the rear end 🙂

Without resorting to that much pain (yet), I upped the power on my L4 ergo intervals yesterday by 10W. Had a successful 1st workout at that power level and another even better one today. PB's two days running 🙂

thanks for the L5 advice as I've never really managed a solid block of L5 focused training like that. Probably hit it in mid-April to mid-May if the current routine keeps working.

TiMan said:

Gains slow and then stop fast. Usually you don't go backwards.

This is when you need to get your testosterone checked. Tell the doc that you have not had a sex drive in over a year and he'll order the blood work.

A block of VO2 work can help get things going again if your T level is good.

Try two days in a row...day one 5 minute intervals at about 113% FTP...day two 3 minute intervals at 117-120 if you can. If you can't then keep the power at 113 and only rest 2 minutes between efforts.
Day three do Tempo at 85% FTP.

The next day do a recovery day and then a day off.

Saturday do a tough team ride and tell yourself that you WILL be doing "some" structured VO2 max work in the ride.
Next day is a recovery day before staring the block again.

Do this for three weeks and then take a recovery week. Then try your threshold power again.

Maybe I am reading into this a little bit. Please help me if I am... 😄

I am reading that if you are plateauing on your FTP, it is because you are either T-limited or you haven't been training hard enough?

Jim

otb4evr said:

Maybe I am reading into this a little bit. Please help me if I am... 😄

I am reading that if you are plateauing on your FTP, it is because you are either T-limited or you haven't been training hard enough?

Jim

The decrease in T happens in many endurance athletes and dare I say most serious ones. In fact most serious endurance men have a T only 60-80% of a non trained man 🙁

Now your T can get even lower...slowly...due to slight over training and or lots of L2 hours. So when you are hammering away at L4 work and notice a plateau then you really should check your T. It very well may be quite low. What is happening is that you cannot adapt as well as you could from your training and FTP increases stop and this could be due to a low T.

So if your T isn't good then you need to take a 7 day lay off...and then come back with less volume and hope like hell that the T comes around. Get it rechecked in a couple weeks...if it doesn't then you might have to take a longer break and or go on T replacement therapy. This is something you have to work out with your doc.
You see...not a few guys get seriously suppressed at the Hypothalmic-Pituitary axis and stop putting out enough Gonadotropins...and that means the old testes won't be able to put out enough T for optimal supercompensation from training stress.

How do you know if your T is low?.....if you have no sex drive then that is a clear sign

If your T is normal, and you are not overtraining, then you need to bump up the intensity in one of three ways.... That is either increase L4 volume and perhaps sweetspot and tempo, and reduce overall weekly ride volume....or increase the intensity of the L4 work to more 100-105% FTP efforts and reduce total weekly ride volume a bit OR start hammering away with VO2 max efforts for a while, while reducing L4 volume and total weekly volume, in an effort to raise the Lactate threshold ceiling.

I happen to like the VO2 work because not only does it raise the ceiling but it grows new mitochondria and the vasucular network to feed them, and it has a really good affect on increasing stroke volume of the heart. All this will help to raise your FTP.

TiMan said:

Gains slow and then stop fast. Usually you don't go backwards.

This is when you need to get your testosterone checked. Tell the doc that you have not had a sex drive in over a year and he'll order the blood work.

A block of VO2 work can help get things going again if your T level is good.

Try two days in a row...day one 5 minute intervals at about 113% FTP...day two 3 minute intervals at 117-120 if you can. If you can't then keep the power at 113 and only rest 2 minutes between efforts.
Day three do Tempo at 85% FTP.

The next day do a recovery day and then a day off.

Saturday do a tough team ride and tell yourself that you WILL be doing "some" structured VO2 max work in the ride.
Next day is a recovery day before staring the block again.

Do this for three weeks and then take a recovery week. Then try your threshold power again.

Hi Timan,
A few questions if you don't mind:

1) Before doing the three week L5 block would you suggest an easy/rest week?
2) Volume wise: Five or six 5-min intervals @~113 and perhaps eight 3-min intervals @~118?
3) Zero structured L4 work during the block?

thanks in advance

rmur17 said:

Hi Timan,
A few questions if you don't mind:

1) Before doing the three week L5 block would you suggest an easy/rest week?
2) Volume wise: Five or six 5-min intervals @~113 and perhaps eight 3-min intervals @~118?
3) Zero structured L4 work during the block?

thanks in advance

Yes a recovery week before starting is wise.

Yes...but 5- 5 minute intervals are enough really

Yes 8- 3 minutes intervals are good.

No...you can do threshold work on day three instead of tempo. Be sure to get plenty on Saturday. You can also do some on day 2 and 3 after the VO2 work. Try 1 X 20 on day 1 and 2 at first after riding easy for 10 minutes. Start at 90%FTP and try to get to 95% after 5 minutes.

You can also do split days with the VO2 work first in the day.

The two days recovery after the three day block is critical!!! This is hard work and you need time to not only recover but to adapt and that only comes after you are 100% recovered.
Make sure the recovery ride is super easy...no pressure at all ..no hills...30-60 minutes is enough. Active recovery doesn't need to be on the bike as you know....I like a brisk walk and time off the bike.

TiMan said:

Yes a recovery week before starting is wise.

Yes...but 5- 5 minute intervals are enough really

Yes 8- 3 minutes intervals are good.

No...you can do threshold work on day three instead of tempo. Be sure to get plenty on Saturday. You can also do some on day 2 and 3 after the VO2 work. Try 1 X 20 on day 1 and 2 at first after riding easy for 10 minutes. Start at 90%FTP and try to get to 95% after 5 minutes.

You can also do split days with the VO2 work first in the day.

The two days recovery after the three day block is critical!!! This is hard work and you need time to not only recover but to adapt and that only comes after you are 100% recovered.
Make sure the recovery ride is super easy...no pressure at all ..no hills...30-60 minutes is enough. Active recovery doesn't need to be on the bike as you know....I like a brisk walk and time off the bike.

thanks Timan. After 23 weeks on the same plan - I finally had to take an easy week last week - legs were just not recovering like they should and even tempo power was hurting. TSS load ~800/wk and CTL ~110.

I think I need a change in routine and although it's still early here -- trying L5 for three weeks or so sounds like a plan.

I have been doing couple of L5 intervals per week after a main L4 workout. Power was only around 1.08 FTP (L5 @410W x 5-7 min compared to L4 @380W x 40-min). So perhaps they really weren't hard enough to do much good ... but that was all I could handle after the L4.

Hmmm ... 1.13 FTP or 430W x 5-min sounds tough for five repeats. I think I'll wade into these with one workout at 420W first and see how that goes 🙂

I'm 100% indoors at the moment primarily ergo mode on the CT.

thanks again

Does alcohol in fact raise production of T? I noticed this year while training I usually have a beer or glass of wine at night after training in the am, and I'm recovering better than ever. In years past I tried to cut all drinking out by the start of the season except here and there.

I realize this has nothing to do with the topic, but out of curiosity how many pros do you think drink regularly but in moderation?

rmur17 said:

thanks Timan. After 23 weeks on the same plan - I finally had to take an easy week last week - legs were just not recovering like they should and even tempo power was hurting. TSS load ~800/wk and CTL ~110.

I think I need a change in routine and although it's still early here -- trying L5 for three weeks or so sounds like a plan.

I have been doing couple of L5 intervals per week after a main L4 workout. Power was only around 1.08 FTP (L5 @410W x 5-7 min compared to L4 @380W x 40-min). So perhaps they really weren't hard enough to do much good ... but that was all I could handle after the L4.

Hmmm ... 1.13 FTP or 430W x 5-min sounds tough for five repeats. I think I'll wade into these with one workout at 420W first and see how that goes 🙂

I'm 100% indoors at the moment primarily ergo mode on the CT.

thanks again

Sounds good bro...and you have some damn good numbers! You do threshold work at 380 watts!!! ....you rock bro. How much do you weigh?

Try a split day...VO2 in the am and threshold in the pm.

I hate 5 minute VO2 work...it's death!...but it is REALLY good training!

mark_e_smith said:

Does alcohol in fact raise production of T? I noticed this year while training I usually have a beer or glass of wine at night after training in the am, and I'm recovering better than ever. In years past I tried to cut all drinking out by the start of the season except here and there.

I realize this has nothing to do with the topic, but out of curiosity how many pros do you think drink regularly but in moderation?

I drink a couple of glasses of wine or a few beers 3/4 nights a week. I find it helps me relax and get to sleep after hard training / racing. Red wine in patricular seems to slow the heart after an evening crit.....

From what I have seen and heard many pro riders drink. The Belgians in particular drink a lot of beer. I believe Christophe Brandt takes a crate of Duvel (strong Belgian beer) around in his luggage during stage races and sinks a few every night to relax. In fact the beer drinking of the Lotto team was the cause of some major arguments between riders and the American working there in managment who left last season.

I've also heard reports of Boonen necking beer and chasers in the bar every night during the Tour of Britain last year. There is also a notorious British elite rider who goes on the lash frequently during race season. A race director once radioed his team director during a race to ask "is number 73 in the breakaway the same number 73 that was in the hotel nightclub at 3am??"

In the old days riders drank a lot of wine. Hinault had arguments with his team boss over how many bottles of wine he was allowed to drink in the evening....and Anquetil used to call for a bidon of champagne for the last hour in races....

i reckon if you don't notice a decline in performance a few drinks here and there does you no harm. I know that the relaxation I get from a glass from wine far outweighs the cons.

TiMan said:

Sounds good bro...and you have some damn good numbers! You do threshold work at 380 watts!!! ....you rock bro. How much do you weigh?

Try a split day...VO2 in the am and threshold in the pm.

I hate 5 minute VO2 work...it's death!...but it is REALLY good training!

oh I'm a flatland TT specialist @85kg so it's only 4.5 W/kg! Can't climb a bridge without hurting 🙂

I've done split workouts in the past and found them effective.

thanks again

rmur17 said:

thanks Timan. After 23 weeks on the same plan - I finally had to take an easy week last week - legs were just not recovering like they should and even tempo power was hurting. TSS load ~800/wk and CTL ~110.

I think I need a change in routine and although it's still early here -- trying L5 for three weeks or so sounds like a plan.

I have been doing couple of L5 intervals per week after a main L4 workout. Power was only around 1.08 FTP (L5 @410W x 5-7 min compared to L4 @380W x 40-min). So perhaps they really weren't hard enough to do much good ... but that was all I could handle after the L4.

Hmmm ... 1.13 FTP or 430W x 5-min sounds tough for five repeats. I think I'll wade into these with one workout at 420W first and see how that goes 🙂

I'm 100% indoors at the moment primarily ergo mode on the CT.

thanks again

Hey, I think I'm in the same boat as you. After several months on the SST diet, my 5 MP is at 124% FTP, but my power for 5' repeats is at only 108-109%. It' strange doing VO2 max intervals only 30w above FTP. Actually my 30 MP falls smack-dab in the middle of these two intensities. I guess this is when that raising the ceiling analogy would apply.

Tuesday I managed only 3 x 5' @ 110% and 2 x 3' @ 110%. It will come, I'm sure. One thing I like doing after a "failed" L5 session is to do 1' over/under intervals. Multiple sets of 3 x 1' @ 50w over FTP (116% for me), 1' @ 50w under (87%). By the end of the 5th minute it feels pretty much like a VO2 interval. You don't get much of a recovery at 87%. Hopefully this will help with my L5 work.

postal_bag said:

Hey, I think I'm in the same boat as you. After several months on the SST diet, my 5 MP is at 124% FTP, but my power for 5' repeats is at only 108-109%. It' strange doing VO2 max intervals only 30w above FTP. Actually my 30 MP falls smack-dab in the middle of these two intensities. I guess this is when that raising the ceiling analogy would apply.

Tuesday I managed only 3 x 5' @ 110% and 2 x 3' @ 110%. It will come, I'm sure. One thing I like doing after a "failed" L5 session is to do 1' over/under intervals. Multiple sets of 3 x 1' @ 50w over FTP (116% for me), 1' @ 50w under (87%). By the end of the 5th minute it feels pretty much like a VO2 interval. You don't get much of a recovery at 87%. Hopefully this will help with my L5 work.

I figure I'm down around 1.15-1.18 right now versus 1.30 back in 2004. Power-duration curve is possibly TOO flat.

I'll find out next week what real L5 work feels like :eek: :eek: :eek:

rmur17 said:

I figure I'm down around 1.15-1.18 right now versus 1.30 back in 2004. Power-duration curve is possibly TOO flat.

So how does this fit with the rule-of-thumb based on the power profiling tables that I suggested on the wattage list?