Ph digital compacts and RAW

Russ Clare said:

As I no longer want to carry an SLR and lenses on walks routinely, I'm
searching for the smallest/lightest compact with RAW processing.

Thus far, I'm looking at the Canon Powershot S70 (I notice that Canon
has dropped RAW in the more recent 8MP S80).

I have not found information on this specification readily available,
so I may well have missed something. Any other recommendations?

Try the Olympus C 8080, has raw, brilliant wide angle lens. I also have a
Minolta Dimage 7 also a very good camera.

Jo

Russ Clare" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

As I no longer want to carry an SLR and lenses on walks routinely, I'm

Quoted message said:

searching for the smallest/lightest compact with RAW processing. <snip>

I have been using a Canon Powershot Pro. Sharp lens and 8 Mp. about 500 gm.
and has RAW. Probably not the smallest, but hey what's the point of RAW if
your lens/imaging system can't exploit it.

Simon Stewart.

"Russ Clare" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As I no longer want to carry an SLR and lenses on walks routinely, I'm
searching for the smallest/lightest compact with RAW processing.

I've recently made the same decision as carrying my 300D and 2 lenses on
walks was becoming a pain. I've bought a Panasonic FZ30, which isn't that
much smaller than the 300D, but it's built in 12 X optical zoom, which can
be optically extended by reducing pixels and quality, plus image
stabilisation is very impressive. I've been very pleased with it so far and
can recommend it.

Cheers,

Glenn

In article <[email hidden]>, Russ Clare
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

As I no longer want to carry an SLR and lenses on walks routinely, I'm
searching for the smallest/lightest compact with RAW processing.

Thus far, I'm looking at the Canon Powershot S70 (I notice that Canon
has dropped RAW in the more recent 8MP S80).

Canon G6 - superb!
--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk

Quoted message said:

As I no longer want to carry an SLR and lenses on walks routinely, I'm
searching for the smallest/lightest compact with RAW processing.

Thus far, I'm looking at the Canon Powershot S70 (I notice that Canon
has dropped RAW in the more recent 8MP S80).

I have not found information on this specification readily available, so
I may well have missed something. Any other recommendations?

I carry a Canon G3. Never a problem on the rucksack belt. Nice size to
handle with extreme winter mitts on. CF card good size for changing out on
the hills with gloves/mitts also. Brilliant photos with RAW capability.
Probably not available now other than second hand, but the G6 as mentioned
by Bill Grey will be a more capable option. Also the new G7, although not
sure if this has the same functions/capabilities as previous ones in the G
series.

--
sandy saunders @ www.thewalkzone.co.uk
email: saunders.sandy at ntlworld.com

'Mountains or Mole Hills ... summiting still
brings the same excitement'

In message <[email hidden]>

josoap' [email protected] said:

Russ Clare said:

As I no longer want to carry an SLR and lenses on walks routinely, I'm
searching for the smallest/lightest compact with RAW processing.

Thus far, I'm looking at the Canon Powershot S70 (I notice that Canon
has dropped RAW in the more recent 8MP S80).

I have not found information on this specification readily available,
so I may well have missed something. Any other recommendations?

Try the Olympus C 8080, has raw, brilliant wide angle lens. I also have a
Minolta Dimage 7 also a very good camera.

Jo

I have an Olympus C70Z which is 7MP has many additional features such as
multi-spot metering and outputs raw images.

--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

"Russ Clare" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As I no longer want to carry an SLR and lenses on walks routinely, I'm
searching for the smallest/lightest compact with RAW processing.

Thus far, I'm looking at the Canon Powershot S70 (I notice that Canon
has dropped RAW in the more recent 8MP S80).

I have not found information on this specification readily available, so
I may well have missed something. Any other recommendations?

--

Russ Clare

I've had the Canon Powershot S70 for a some months now, and I have to say
there is some design faults that are really irritating. The most serious
IMHO is the lens cover, it's very easy to "accidently" move while taking a
picture, thus switching the camera off.

Exposure needs to be set manually to get the best out of it. The wide angle
lens is great, however.

I don't take RAW, picture so can't comment on that.

I can't recommend the camera, I wish I had bought something else, in truth.

Jhimmy

On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 20:09:28 GMT, "Jhimmy" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I've had the Canon Powershot S70 for a some months now, and I have to say
there is some design faults that are really irritating. The most serious
IMHO is the lens cover, it's very easy to "accidently" move while taking a
picture, thus switching the camera off.

My g/f has one, doesn't get that problem, but does get the related one
that it keeps turning itself on when you're trying to slide it back
into its case!

It also stopped working after a year, fortunately within guarantee
(just) so the mended version's just arrived back.

She only ever uses automatic exposure but has got some super shots
with it.

S.
--
Oppose ID cards and the database state - sign the pledge at
http://www.pledgebank.com/refuse

Snip

Quoted message said:

My g/f has one, doesn't get that problem, but does get the related one
that it keeps turning itself on when you're trying to slide it back
into its case!

It also stopped working after a year, fortunately within guarantee
(just) so the mended version's just arrived back.

She only ever uses automatic exposure but has got some super shots
with it.

S.
--
Oppose ID cards and the database state - sign the pledge at
http://www.pledgebank.com/refuse

I think it's how a person holds the camera that the front cover of the Canon
S70 can switch the camera off. I've tried to hold it (correctly???) but
still instantly goes back to how my nature (or) nurture dictates.

Never thought about it turning itself on, whilst pushing it into a case -
I'm now worried I'll scratch the lens! Thanks for that warning.

Jhimmy

Russ Clare said:

As I no longer want to carry an SLR and lenses on walks routinely,

I have no problem with SLRs on walks, but I definitely have a need for
something lighter on backpacking trips, especially the heavier winter trips
now due.

Quoted message said:

I'm
searching for the smallest/lightest compact with RAW processing.

Same here.

Quoted message said:

Thus far, I'm looking at the Canon Powershot S70

That was my prime choice too, as the smallest lightest camera available with
decent serious camera features, until very recently...

Quoted message said:

(I notice that Canon
has dropped RAW in the more recent 8MP S80).

I was really annoyed about that. It seems they no longer want to market the
S series as serious cameras anymore. Thus far the S series has matched the
slightly better quality G series, in everything but the lenses (same
sensors, same controls and features, except for the G's built-in neutral
density filter). Effectively they are the same cameras, but the Gs have
better lenses.

Quoted message said:

I have not found information on this specification readily available,
so I may well have missed something.

Can't go wrong with DPReview;
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canons70/

A big selling point of this camera IMO (which the G series doesn't have), is
the underwater case that's available for it. This is a plastic moulded case
that fits the camera perfectly and has buttons on the case which link to all
of the camera's buttons, giving complete underwater control. Not that I
actually need to use it underwater (although the deep low tide Gower rock
pools are quite tempting), but it would be great for a typical soggy day in
the Welsh hills, or more specifically, serious waterfall photography during
a serious downpour, of which we seem to be having plenty of lately.

Can't remember the part number offhand, but the underwater case can be found
for around £130 on Amazon I think, which with the S70 (£250?) would give you
a great all-weather camera for £380, or an ideal ultra-light camera for just
£250 if you don't need the serious rain capability.

The additional lens adapters are a bonus too, giving a maximum wide-angle
equivalent of something in the region of 20mm (not sure of the exact figure
offhand), something few other digicams are capable of, and that's quite a
bonus if you like ultra-wide photography. You'd probably need some curve
correcting software or a filter to correct for the distortion later though.

However, if you're going to start adding lens adapters, that rather defeats
the object of carrying an ultra-light camera in the first place, so you may
be better off simply carrying the SLR.

Quoted message said:

Any other recommendations?

Well as it happens, yes. I hadn't planned to break my silence just yet, but
an important development in digicams needs to be pointed out to potential
buyers. Thanks to Ste for bringing this to my attention.

Presenting... the Panasonic DMC-LX1.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/lx1.shtml
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Panasonic/panasonic_dmclx1.asp

I'll sum up the main features for those who don't want to read the reviews
(although Michael Reichmann's comments are always worth reading). I'll
compare the features to the S70 which is the closest competitor IMO.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

In no particular order, I'll start with the weight, since that was the main
feature you were looking for.

S70 - 300g
LX1 - 220g

No contest there!

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Megapixels next, that's what most people care about, isn't it?

S70 - 7.1
LX1 - 8.3

Another winner! But there's more to this than meets the eye, read on...

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Zoom range, always an important thing. Both cameras do 28mm at the wide
end, which although it's not superwide, is a big improvement on most
digicams, which can only manage 35mm.

S70 - 28-100mm
LX1 - 28-112mm

The LX1 wins again! Okay, I admit, these are not extreme zoom ranges, and
some digicams seriously outperform these figures, but are sadly lacking in
other areas. If you want a good quality camera, you have to accept a
reduced zoom range, partly because it's a well known fact that lenses with
shorter zoom ranges tend to be of much better quality than extreme zoom
ranges. Partly because of other design factors.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Lens quality. This is a very important point, especially for any serious
photographer considering leaving their DSLR at home and making do with a
mere digicam instead.

S70 - Claimed to be very sharp, in the centre at least, but has to be
stopped down to get reasonable edge sharpness. I've looked at samples and
the corners can sometimes be quite soft. Not as good as the equivalent G6,
which has a better lens.

LX1 - Claimed to have an excellent lens, with good centre to edge sharpness.
Made by Leica. Say no more! Then again, I will say more. It suffers from
hardly any chromatic aberration either. So another winner in the lens
department.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Okay then, for anyone who hasn't clicked on the links above, let's get to
the most interesting feature. I've saved the best for last - it's a
widescreen camera! Can't believe it took me so long to get around to
mentioning that, it's probably the biggest selling point of all! Yep, it
has a true 16:9 format sensor, which is the same as widescreen TV (and
slightly wider than widescreen computer monitors, which are only 16:10).
For those who like to think in terms of 1, it's 1.77:1, compared to 1.5:1
(35mm) and 1.33:1 (other digicams).

Now this isn't exactly panoramic, but it's very nicely wide, wider than 35mm
and way wider than other digicams. At first I wondered why they chose this
format, since it's not a traditional format in any kind of photography that
I know of. But then the penny dropped...

....like most other digicams, it includes a video mode! But in this case,
unlike other digicams, it can do true widescreen video, at a good resolution
(848x480) at a good frame rate (30fps) and unlimited too (the S70 is limited
to 30 seconds at a time). Like other digicams, zooming isn't possible
during video capture, but apart from that, you can think of this as a high
res digital stills and a decent quality digital video camera rolled into
one! Provided you have sufficient memory capacity of course. Video will
eat up the megs!

A little more info about this 16:9 format. There's a switch on the camera
which allows you to switch between 16:9, 3:2 and 4:3 formats, which gives
you the best of all worlds. However, this is only relevant if you shoot
JPEG, in RAW mode you get the full 16:9 image every time.

It's also worth pointing out, if it isn't already blatantly obvious, that
you get less resolution with the other formats. Roughly speaking, the 16:9
image is 8MP, the 3:2 image 7MP and the 4:3 image 6MP.

So if you really want the 4:3 format, the S70 is actually higher res, at 7MP
instead of 6MP. Also, at 4:3, the LX1 zoom range is actually 35-140, so you
gain at the telephoto end, but lose at the wide-angle end. So the S70 is a
wider-angle camera at 4:3, if that's what you want.

Personally I don't like 4:3, I prefer a wider image, but that's just a
matter of personal preference. If you prefer a wider format, the LX1 is
better, but the S70 has a wider angle of view at 4:3.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Noise! Now here's the big issue. So far the LX1 seems to be way in the
lead, however, it scores quite badly on noise, and has received a lot of
criticism for this. Michael Reichmann and others have commented that rather
than it being more noisy than other cameras, it may simply have less
built-in noise reduction (which all digicams have BTW). Sample images seem
to bear out this hypothesis.

In comparison, I've studied S70 sample shots and found certain areas of
grass to be disturbingly smooth and texture free, a clear indication of
stronger inbuilt noise reduction than the G series, and a lot more than the
LX1. Not strong enough to put me off buying the camera completely, but
enough to disappoint me a bit.

If you compare the sample images on DPReview, you'll see that whilst the LX1
is clearly noisier than it's competitors, it's also considerably sharper.
That's the trade-off. As Pete likes to say, "you choose, you lose". Fact
is, you can always apply your own noise reduction later. You can always
remove more noise, but you can never put detail back. So if post processing
doesn't scare you (and if RAW is what you want, then it shouldn't), then a
sharper, noisier image is probably a good thing.

In fact, this has been bothering me so much that I downloaded some sample
images and made some test prints. I started by applying sharpening (Focus
Magic radius 2) then made an A4 print, with no noise reduction. The result
was silky smooth, no noise visible in the sky at all. So for an A4 print,
the sheer resolution cancels out the noise completely.

I then altered the dpi to 180 to print the image at 21" x 12", which is the
largest practical enlargement size IMO. At this size, noise in the sky is
clearly visible, but only if you look closely. I ran off a number of test
prints with different processing (crops to save paper and ink) and found
that when using the default noise reduction in CS2 on the sky layer (plus
sharpening on the ground layer - layer masking of course), the sky came out
silky smooth with a nicely sharp ground layer, although you have to be
careful with the transition.

So my conclusion is that it is possible to make a good quality large print
from this camera, provided you're prepared to spend a bit of time on the
processing. But surely that goes without saying for RAW photographers,
doesn't it? For smaller prints, NR is not necessary.

I'll quote Michael Reichmann as saying that "portfolio grade prints are
possible". So, nuff said on that issue.

Oh, one more thing, almost forgot. The LX1 is TOTALLY unusable at ISO 400
and pretty [censored] on ISO 200 too. But given that I would never use any
digicam at anything other than the lowest ISO, this is totally irrelevant to
me. But if you aren't so religious about using low ISOs as I am, be aware
that you simply CAN'T use the LX1 at high ISOs. If the light is that bad,
then get your TRIPOD out! (You do carry one, don't you? Even if it's only
a diddy pod!)

++++++++++++++++++++++++

A few other points.

The viewfinder is a very nicely large 2.5".

Batteries are lithium-ion. Very good.

Cards are not Flash. Not so good (if you're a Flash user like me, it means
a lot of extra expense buying another card type, especially if you want to
do a lot of video).

No adapter lenses. A pity. I know it compromises the whole point of
travelling light, but still, they'd be nice to have as an option. More
importantly, without adapters I'm not sure how I could attach a polariser or
a lens hood, which are important issues in themselves.

Finally, no underwater case. For me that's a big selling point of the S70.
Quite frankly, it really bugs me that I can't use digital cameras in heavy
rain without a care in the world. Not that I ever liked using my film
cameras in heavy rain either, but it was the lenses I was worried about, not
the cameras, which I knew would carry on working no matter what, since I
always swore by manual cameras with mechanical shutters. Things are not so
simple these days. But I'm drifting off the point...

++++++++++++++++++++++++

So, to sum up, my thinking is that the Panasonic LX1 with its Leica lens is
probably the best ultra-lightweight digicam currently available with RAW
mode that is capable of producing professional quality results, with care!

I do have some reservations about the high noise and the lack of underwater
case, but the former is solvable with effort and the latter is probably not
that important to most people.

On the whole, Welsh rain aside, the LX1 seems to win on most counts, and is
currently top of my list of ultra-light RAW cameras to help see me through
this winter's backpacking trips.

Interestingly, the LX1 can be found for £380 if you shop around, exactly the
same as the S70 plus underwater case. But without, it is a more expensive
camera. Even so, I still think it's probably the best buy at the moment.

Paul

Paul .....

--
sandy saunders @ www.thewalkzone.co.uk
email: saunders.sandy at ntlworld.com

'Mountains or Mole Hills ... summiting still
brings the same excitement'

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Russ Clare said:

As I no longer want to carry an SLR and lenses on walks routinely,

I have no problem with SLRs on walks, but I definitely have a need for
something lighter on backpacking trips, especially the heavier winter
trips now due.

Paul

Is this really you Paul ?
The lenght of the message, ok.
Quoting in between, ok.
Photography, ok.
Not taking an enormous amount of photography gear., no way :-)
*Heavier* winter trips, no way.
This spring you've broken all your bones, were immobilized in hospital and
were impossible to walk or even use a computer. You also lost your memory
and it's all coming back now.
Thank God or whoever..... ;-)

--
Theo
www.theosphotos.fotopic.net

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Russ Clare said:

As I no longer want to carry an SLR and lenses on walks routinely,

I have no problem with SLRs on walks, but I definitely have a need for
something lighter on backpacking trips, especially the heavier winter
trips now due.

Paul

Is this really you Paul ?
The lenght of the message, ok.
Quoting in between, ok.
Photography, ok.
Not taking an enormous amount of photography gear., no way :-)
*Heavier* winter trips, no way.
This spring you've broken all your bones, were immobilized in hospital and
were impossible to walk or even use a computer. You also lost your memory
and it's all coming back now.
Thank God or whoever..... ;-)

--
Theo
www.theosphotos.fotopic.net

On 5/11/05 05:43, in article [email hidden], "Paul

Saunders said:

Interestingly, the LX1 can be found for £380 if you shop around, exactly the
same as the S70 plus underwater case. But without, it is a more expensive
camera. Even so, I still think it's probably the best buy at the moment.

WOW. Who needs DPReview when we've got Paul back!

Welcome back.

--
Andy Howell
Birmingham, UK

To mail simply put back the dots ...

On 5/11/05 05:43, in article [email hidden], "Paul

Saunders said:

That was my prime choice too, as the smallest lightest camera available with
decent serious camera features, until very recently...

I rather like the idea of one of the new digital Leicas. Unfortunately, I
don't like the price!

--
Andy Howell
Birmingham, UK

To mail simply put back the dots ...

On 5/11/05 08:54, in article [email hidden],

theo said:

Thank God or whoever..... ;-)

Faint hearts, sit your kill files now :-)

--
Andy Howell
Birmingham, UK

To mail simply put back the dots ...

theo <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Russ Clare said:

As I no longer want to carry an SLR and lenses on walks routinely,

I have no problem with SLRs on walks, but I definitely have a need for
something lighter on backpacking trips, especially the heavier winter
trips now due.

Paul

Is this really you Paul ?
The lenght of the message, ok.
Quoting in between, ok.
Photography, ok.
Not taking an enormous amount of photography gear., no way :-)
*Heavier* winter trips, no way.
This spring you've broken all your bones, were immobilized in hospital and
were impossible to walk or even use a computer. You also lost your memory
and it's all coming back now.
Thank God or whoever..... ;-)

D'you know? I paged through that long post and never thought to look
at the author.

I was about to kill the thread.....
--
Gordon Harris

In article <[email hidden]>, Russ Clare
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Third. Do I get a prize for enticing Paul in from the cold (welcome
back)?

Well, maybe ! It's not cold here in Swansea just bloody wet :-(
--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk

Paul Saunders said:

Paul

Welcome back Mr Saunders.....