PETA Kills Animals

TC said:

http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=2056

Murderers.

TC

http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=88133&ran=19014&tref=po

Another N.C. county cuts ties to PETA after charges

Sgt. Jeremy S. Roberts of the Ahoskie, N.C., Police Department
describes on Friday how he saw people casting animal carcasses into
this garbage bin behind a grocery store two days before. Two employees
of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals were arrested in the
case. DREW WILSON / THE VIRGINIAN-PILOT

Days after two employees of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals
were arrested on animal cruelty charges, Bertie County, N.C., officials
said they were stunned to learn that the group had euthanized most of
the animals it had taken from shelters in the northeastern part of the
state.

Despite a written apology from PETA President Ingrid Newkirk, the
Bertie County Board of Commissioners voted unanimously Monday to cut
all ties to the group.

The two PETA employees were arrested last week after police saw bags of
dead animals being dumped in a trash bin in a supermarket parking lot.

Bertie County Manager Zee Lamb said Tuesday that he thought the animals
were being taken for evaluation and "the ones that were adoptable
would be adopted."

Euthanasia, Lamb said, was understood to be used only "as a last
resort."

Bertie joined Northampton County officials, who decided last week to
stop working with PETA until the case against the two employees is
resolved.

Documents filed by PETA with the state of Virginia showed that in 2001,
2002 and 2003, about 6,100 domestic animals were euthanized - about
83 percent of the animals that owners surrendered to the organization.
Many animals are brought in by owners to be spayed or neutered and
returned.

Many of the animals in Virginia had been euthanized at the request of
their owners, said Daphna Nachminovitch, director of PETA's domestic
animal and wildlife department.

Nachminovitch said she did not know how many animals had been taken in
North Carolina or how many had been adopted or euthanized.

Newkirk's letter to Bertie County commissioners, though, stated:
"We were able to place a small number of animals ... but the
condition of most rural strays and given-up animals makes that
impossible."

PETA's adoption rate - about 19 percent from 2001- 03 - is lower
than that at some other animal control services, such as Isle of Wight
County Animal Control, where the adoption rate spiked to 70 percent
last year.

The difference between PETA and other services, Nachminovitch said, is
that PETA never turns away an animal.

"We take in the animals nobody else will take," Nachminovitch said.

All animals, however, should be examined by a veterinarian to see if
they can be adopted or should be killed, she said.

Even animals that are deemed healthy enough to live are eventually
euthanized when PETA cannot find a good home for them, Nachminovitch
said.

People tend to want young, house-trained, healthy animals. Many of the
animals taken in North Carolina were strays, and some had contagious
and severe diseases, she said.

"Did we euthanize some animals who could have been adopted? Maybe,"
Nachminovitch said. "The point is that good homes are few and far
between ... Our aim here was to stop them from dying an agonizing
death."

Police began investigating because carcasses wrapped in plastic bags
were found in trash bins at a Piggly Wiggly supermarket every Wednesday
for four straight weeks. At least 80 animals were found dumped.

Officers say that on June 15 they followed a van registered to PETA
after it left Bertie County's animal shelter, staked out the garbage
bins and arrested two PETA employees after watching animal carcasses
being thrown away.

They found 18 dead dogs in a bin and 13 other animal carcasses in the
van.

Andrew B. Cook, 24, of Virginia Beach, and Adria J. Hinkle, 27, of
Norfolk, were both charged with 31 felony counts of animal cruelty,
eight misdemeanor counts of illegal disposal of dead animals and one
count of trespassing.

A probable cause hearing was set for July 19. PETA will pay for
Cook's and Hinkle's legal representation, Newkirk said on Friday.

Hinkle has been suspended for 90 days, but Cook, who was hired only
weeks ago as her assistant, has not been suspended.

Nachminovitch said euthanizing animals and dumping the carcasses into
trash bins violates PETA policy.

PETA typically takes animals from North Carolina to Norfolk, where
those deemed unfit for adoption are killed with a fast-acting lethal
injection. Newkirk said in a news conference Friday.

Only veterinarians hired by PETA are supposed to kill animals in North
Carolina, she said.

"There is no reason for what happened, and there is no excuse for
what happened," Nachminovitch said.

Virginia law states that domestic animals, such as those PETA was
transporting, must be accompanied by a note from a veterinarian saying
the animals are healthy and fit to travel before entering the
commonwealth, said Elaine Lidholm, a spokeswoman for the Virginia
Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services.

Lidholm said she did not know whether PETA had obtained the proper
documents for moving animals into Virginia.

"We were not aware PETA was transporting sick animals across the
state line for euthanasia," she said.

Asked if Hinkle had been getting notes from veterinarians,
Nachminovitch said, "That is something that has to do with the legal
case, and I can't comment on that."

According to Newkirk's letter to commissioners, PETA started working
with Bertie County in 2001 when a caller informed the group of poor
conditions in the county's shelter.

As PETA explored other shelters, they found more troubling conditions.

For example, the Bertie County shelter had used a small gas chamber to
kill animals until 2000, and some animals in Windsor, N.C., were killed
with a .22-caliber bullet to the head, Nachminovitch said.

"These are all very outdated facilities," Nachminovitch said.
"These are county pounds that have been here for decades."

Since 2001, PETA had expanded to serve shelters in Bertie, Hertford and
Northampton counties and the Windsor town shelter.

PETA spent $250,000 in improvements to Bertie County's shelter and
$65,000 on improvements in Northampton County and provided more than
$9,000 to an Ahoskie veterinarian who euthanized animals, Nachminovitch
said.

The Ahoskie veterinarian, Patrick Proctor, said on Tuesday he would
continue to euthanize animals with PETA's support, although three
cats found in the trash bins were from his clinic. He said it is
important for animals to be put to death in a humane way.

Northampton County has decided to stop working with PETA for an unknown
period of time, although officials do not think animals from the
Northampton shelter were among those found in the trash bins , said Sue
Gay, health director for Northampton County.

PETA had sent people other than Hinkle to pick up animals from
Northampton on a different day of the week, Gay said.

Gay said she assumed all animals taken from her county were intended to
be examined, and that healthy ones would be put up for adoption.

Nachminovitch and others from PETA have stayed in touch with Bertie and
Northampton officials despite the recent decisions made by county
commissioners.

"One of our people made a very bad mistake, and I don't want the
animals to suffer for it," Nachminovitch said.

---
Liars and murderers.

TC

TC said:

http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=2056

Murderers.

TC

http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=88131&ran=99846

PETA has not shied away from euthanasia of dogs, cats

Ingrid Newkirk

By INGRID NEWKIRK, PETA PRESIDENT,

The ugly issue of animal population and euthanasia - and People for
the Ethical Treatment of Animals' struggle with it - has been in
the spotlight because of the arrests of two of our workers. Like it or
not, exposure to the issue is a good thing.

PETA was first invited to help animals in North Carolina by a police
officer appalled by conditions at the Bertie County Pound. We found
that some of these "shelters" are just shacks without heating in
which animals have been left to drown during floods or freeze to death
in winter.

We found that animals in underfunded, impoverished pounds were being
killed in hideous, violent ways. Animals were being shot with a .22
behind a shed and forced into windowless metal boxes to be gassed. We
also discovered some dogs and cats were being slowly suffocated after
being injected with a drug that only paralyzes the body.

Life had dealt these animals a rotten hand. At the very least, they
deserved a peaceful death. So, although PETA's main work is not in
sheltering, we stepped in to provide quick and painless euthanasia by
injection, free of charge, thus ending the outdated, barbaric killings.

Over the past few years, PETA has worked to provide training,
personnel, money and supplies to help good people in struggling
agencies in North Carolina clean up these pounds. The counties are
impoverished, so there is a long way to go. We have spent more than
$250,000 on veterinary and other services in Bertie County alone, and
far more in Hampton Roads.

Each dollar spent means a needy animal is given warmth from the cold,
shelter from rain or hot sun, fresh water, nutritious food, veterinary
care and, quite often, the first gentle touch it has ever known.

PETA submitted several proposals to North Carolina officials and
attended several meetings where we offered - begged, really - to be
allowed to implement, among other things, an on-site adoption program.
We have pushed for such a program since 2003. Officials were not
interested in our offer.

We have also delivered hundreds of free sturdy dog houses and fresh
straw in winter to dogs in homes who have been left chained by their
owners to metal barrels or trees. We have paid to spay and neuter
thousands of dogs and cats.

The tragedy is that there are not enough good homes for all the animals
in shelters and pounds. It is only this harsh reality that has
convinced us that euthanasia is a kindness for dogs and cats born into
a world that doesn't want them, has not cared for them, and
ultimately has abandoned them .

And, while people patronize pet shops where dogs and cats can be bought
on a credit card, seek purebreds from breeders who add to the
population overload, and fail to spay and neuter their animals or keep
animals for a lifetime, euthanasia will continue. As long as it does
continue, it should be done with kindness, so that each animal will
know comfort in the last minutes of life .

Although we have placed dogs and cats from North Carolina in homes,
most dogs we have been given were in terrible condition, many with
contagious conditions like Parvo virus or severe mange. They have
untreated injuries and oozing infections from being hit by cars, have
been stabbed or burned, are aggressive, or are simply not attractive to
people, most of whom are looking for small, cute, housebroken puppies
without medical problems.

You can see some of the suffering animals we have put out of their
misery, and the joyful ones we have found homes for, on
www.HelpingAnimals.com.

Recently, two PETA staff members were found disposing of animal bodies
in a completely improper way after euthanasia. We won't tolerate that
and we took immediate action.

Now we - and this means all of us - are left with the larger issue.
We can stop euthanasia, but to do it we need caring people to join us
to curb the animal overpopulation crisis.

Please, spay and neuter your dogs and cats and help those with low
incomes to do the same. Never buy from breeders or pet shops, but
instead patronize your local shelters. Distribute our literature to
educate others. Press for legislation to grant incentives to sterilize
animals.

Only when there is a good home for every dog and cat can the
all-admission shelters (those that open their doors to every needy
animal) and PETA stop doing society's dirty work.

Ingrid Newkirk is president of People for the Ethical Treatment of
Animals (www.PETA.org) in Norfolk.

-------

1) What have PETA done with the millions it raises every year that they
can't find any money to give these animals some place to live?

2) Can they not build a facility?

3) Where are the thousands of PETA members who claim to love animals?
Why are they not adopting these poor creatures?

4) What about the dignity of the deceased animals? Is it appropriate to
just throw them in a dumpster?

It sounds as if PETA has failed in following their simple, basic,
fundamental beliefs. ie. animals deserve respect and love. Instead they
are willing to take millions of dollars from donors every year, get
their names in the papers, and then not waste any of the money to
actually take care of the few animals they get possession of. Too
inconvenient to actually have to pay for and handle and care for the
animals. Easier to kill them off. Out of sight, out of mind.

Greedy, glory-seeking hypocrites. The whole bunch of them.

TC

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ingrid Newkirk: "PETA usually takes the animals back to Norfolk to be euthanized, Newkirk said, in a process that involves a single hypodermic shot and a gentle caress. Very few are ever put up for adoption, she said. "We won't shy away from doing society's dirty work as long as the alternative is a life of misery and a bad or slow death," Newkirk said.<<

COMMENT:

My lab has fostered several hundred kittens and cats for adoption at
the local Petsmart, doing free neutering, spaying, virus testing, and
administering vaccines and treating all kinds of parasites first. We
get them from owners who know what happens when they take them to the
pound.

The only two cats we euthanized in the last two years have been a pet
with a horrid squamous cell mouth tumor (it was time), and a feral
tomcat with FIV AND FeLV who became a vicious biter after we got
through curing the mite diseases that had turned his heat and front
quarters into an infected mass of cardboard-like skin and crust.

We are in the process of working with the local city council to turn
the local animal shelter into a no-kill shelter, where no healthy
animal is euthanized. We think it's possible to save 80% of the animals
this way. Pilot programs in both rural New York State and city (San
Francisco) areas suggest it's possible.

Neither the Humane Society nor PETA is any help in this process at all.
PETA makes our research with dogs harder by making it impossible even
to get already-euthanized dogs from the pound (we could use them for
histology and thermal modeling). PETA figures these dogs have been
"through enough" and deserve a quiet cremation without any chance to
serve a better purpose. As for the Humane Society, they don't impede
research, but they don't help that much with the pet problem, either.
On the contrary, they seem to be fairly happy with the euthanasia
status quo. About as happy as PETA is, apparently. PETA figures the big
difference they make over the humane society is a *caress* before that
Euthasol is given. Our animals get a caress, but also ketamine,
acepromazine, and gas anesthesia. But we save many cats for every dog
we kill, and we breed the research dogs ourselves. They're not pets.

I would personally like to kick Ingred Newkirk's behind up around her
ears for the damage she's done to biomedical research. Failing that,
I'd like to force her to learn how to spay kittens, then make her do
few dozen, so she begins to have some innate understanding of the
animal control problem she thinks she's an expert in.

DAMN I hate people who can only shoot their mouths off, and are ever
good for any real work. People who criticise doctors without much
contact with the practice of medicine. People who criticise biomedical
research who have little understanding of science. People who have all
kinds of answers to animal control who've never been in the trenches
(or when they have, like PETA show their incompetence with solutions
everybody else either figured out long ago, or are in the process of
trying to change for the better.)

If I had PETA's 30 million a year I could convert a large part of
Southern California to no-kill shelters.

By the way, one wonders what PETA is using chemically for their
euthanasia. These things are all controlled substances. I have a DEA
number, the licensed vet on my staff has a DEA number, and my LAB has a
separate DEA licence. We have a monster drug safe, lots of oversite,
and all our i's are dotted and t's crossed. What about Ms. Newkirk?
Hey, FEDS! Pay attention.

SBH

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The difference between PETA and other services, Nachminovitch said, is

that PETA never turns away an animal.

"We take in the animals nobody else will take," Nachminovitch said. <<

COMMENT:

This is complete BS, of course. Your local animal shelter by law must
take anything you bring it. And their 20% adoption rates are about the
same as PETA's here in Southern California. In some cases even the
local government shelters do better than PETA.

And they don't compare with the local rescue service I volunteer for,
where adoption rates run well over 95%. We have the time to foster
feral kittens until they are socialized, treat injured and parasitized
cats until well, and so on. However, unlike the pound, we also have the
option of spaying and neutering feral unsocializable cats, then
chipping, ear-clipping, and returning them to their catch-site if they
were caught in well-nurished condition. There are many cats being fed
out there which will not enter a home, or which are being fed by people
unwilling to take them into their homes because they have behavior
problems. So long as these are neutered, they do little harm to the
community. They aren't even noisy. Dogs, of course, are a harder animal
control problem.

SBH

"TC" <[email hidden]> wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

It sounds as if PETA has failed in following their simple, basic,
fundamental beliefs. ie. animals deserve respect and love. Instead they
are willing to take millions of dollars from donors every year, get
their names in the papers, and then not waste any of the money to
actually take care of the few animals they get possession of. Too
inconvenient to actually have to pay for and handle and care for the
animals. Easier to kill them off. Out of sight, out of mind.

Greedy, glory-seeking hypocrites. The whole bunch of them.

TC

I agree with you, TC. PETA never has had the ideals it claims.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA [email hidden]

"Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ingrid Newkirk: "PETA usually takes the animals back to Norfolk to be
euthanized, Newkirk said, in a process that involves a single hypodermic
shot and a gentle caress. Very few are ever put up for adoption, she
said. "We won't shy away from doing society's dirty work as long as the
alternative is a life of misery and a bad or slow death," Newkirk said.<<

COMMENT:

My lab has fostered several hundred kittens and cats for adoption at
the local Petsmart, doing free neutering, spaying, virus testing, and
administering vaccines and treating all kinds of parasites first. We
get them from owners who know what happens when they take them to the
pound.

The only two cats we euthanized in the last two years have been a pet
with a horrid squamous cell mouth tumor (it was time), and a feral
tomcat with FIV AND FeLV who became a vicious biter after we got
through curing the mite diseases that had turned his heat and front
quarters into an infected mass of cardboard-like skin and crust.

We are in the process of working with the local city council to turn
the local animal shelter into a no-kill shelter, where no healthy
animal is euthanized. We think it's possible to save 80% of the animals
this way. Pilot programs in both rural New York State and city (San
Francisco) areas suggest it's possible.

Neither the Humane Society nor PETA is any help in this process at all.
PETA makes our research with dogs harder by making it impossible even
to get already-euthanized dogs from the pound (we could use them for
histology and thermal modeling). PETA figures these dogs have been
"through enough" and deserve a quiet cremation without any chance to
serve a better purpose. As for the Humane Society, they don't impede
research, but they don't help that much with the pet problem, either.
On the contrary, they seem to be fairly happy with the euthanasia
status quo. About as happy as PETA is, apparently. PETA figures the big
difference they make over the humane society is a *caress* before that
Euthasol is given. Our animals get a caress, but also ketamine,
acepromazine, and gas anesthesia. But we save many cats for every dog
we kill, and we breed the research dogs ourselves. They're not pets.

I would personally like to kick Ingred Newkirk's behind up around her
ears for the damage she's done to biomedical research. Failing that,
I'd like to force her to learn how to spay kittens, then make her do
few dozen, so she begins to have some innate understanding of the
animal control problem she thinks she's an expert in.

DAMN I hate people who can only shoot their mouths off, and are ever
good for any real work. People who criticise doctors without much
contact with the practice of medicine. People who criticise biomedical
research who have little understanding of science. People who have all
kinds of answers to animal control who've never been in the trenches
(or when they have, like PETA show their incompetence with solutions
everybody else either figured out long ago, or are in the process of
trying to change for the better.)

If I had PETA's 30 million a year I could convert a large part of
Southern California to no-kill shelters.

By the way, one wonders what PETA is using chemically for their
euthanasia.

Helium maybe?

Quoted message said:

These things are all controlled substances. I have a DEA
number, the licensed vet on my staff has a DEA number, and my LAB has a
separate DEA licence. We have a monster drug safe, lots of oversite,
and all our i's are dotted and t's crossed. What about Ms. Newkirk?
Hey, FEDS! Pay attention.

SBH

"Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The difference between PETA and other services, Nachminovitch said, is

that PETA never turns away an animal.

"We take in the animals nobody else will take," Nachminovitch said. <<

COMMENT:

This is complete BS, of course. Your local animal shelter by law must
take anything you bring it. And their 20% adoption rates are about the
same as PETA's here in Southern California. In some cases even the
local government shelters do better than PETA.

And they don't compare with the local rescue service I volunteer for,
where adoption rates run well over 95%. We have the time to foster
feral kittens until they are socialized, treat injured and parasitized
cats until well, and so on. However, unlike the pound, we also have the
option of spaying and neutering feral unsocializable cats, then
chipping, ear-clipping, and returning them to their catch-site if they
were caught in well-nurished condition.

Maybe that's hard on the local bird population.

Quoted message said:

There are many cats being fed
out there which will not enter a home, or which are being fed by people
unwilling to take them into their homes because they have behavior
problems. So long as these are neutered, they do little harm to the
community.

Except for the birds.

Quoted message said:

They aren't even noisy. Dogs, of course, are a harder animal
control problem.

SBH

Quoted message said:

And they don't compare with the local rescue service I volunteer for,
where adoption rates run well over 95%. We have the time to foster
feral kittens until they are socialized, treat injured and parasitized
cats until well, and so on. However, unlike the pound, we also have the
option of spaying and neutering feral unsocializable cats, then
chipping, ear-clipping, and returning them to their catch-site if they
were caught in well-nurished condition.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe that's hard on the local bird population.

COMMENT:

No doubt, but I have the feeling that the birds and mice are more in
danger from the total population standard housecats that get outside
time, than from feral cats. Simply due to the numbers, and the fact
that cats hunt for "sport" as well as food. A lust for feathers and
flying stuff is written into their genes. They even have a "word" for
it. It's sort of a jaw-chatter.

I suppose if you're a "bird person," all this bugs you more. But I seem
to have less sympathy for animals in their natural wild, even if they
are cats. It's as though we have some extra responsiblity for animals
we've taken out of their normal environment and overbred. When
abandoned, they're in a truly impossible position without even the
chance of a bird or mouse.

Or it may be that if I thought hard about the plight of the average
animal in the wild, I really would go nuts. So I pretend "la-la-la-la"
that it's like Bambi out there.

SBH

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Helium maybe? <<

I think the PETA people have a lot of helium.

It's got to be cheaper than Nembutal.

Sbharrisatsignix.netcom.com said:

No doubt, but I have the feeling that the birds and mice are more in
danger from the total population standard housecats that get outside
time, than from feral cats. Simply due to the numbers, and the fact
that cats hunt for "sport" as well as food. A lust for feathers and
flying stuff is written into their genes. They even have a "word" for
it. It's sort of a jaw-chatter.

A cat is basically a tiger, right?

"Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And they don't compare with the local rescue service I volunteer for,
where adoption rates run well over 95%. We have the time to foster
feral kittens until they are socialized, treat injured and parasitized
cats until well, and so on. However, unlike the pound, we also have the
option of spaying and neutering feral unsocializable cats, then
chipping, ear-clipping, and returning them to their catch-site if they
were caught in well-nurished condition.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe that's hard on the local bird population.

COMMENT:

No doubt, but I have the feeling that the birds and mice are more in
danger from the total population standard housecats that get outside
time, than from feral cats.

Quite true. Our neighbor's cat has gotten
at least one of the yellow finches from our
"Backyard Wildlife Habitat".

Quoted message said:

Simply due to the numbers, and the fact
that cats hunt for "sport" as well as food.

Right, birds are toys for cats when they're
not food for cats.

Quoted message said:

A lust for feathers and
flying stuff is written into their genes. They even have a "word" for
it. It's sort of a jaw-chatter.

I suppose if you're a "bird person," all this bugs you more. But I seem
to have less sympathy for animals in their natural wild, even if they
are cats. It's as though we have some extra responsiblity for animals
we've taken out of their normal environment and overbred. When
abandoned, they're in a truly impossible position without even the
chance of a bird or mouse.

Or it may be that if I thought hard about the plight of the average
animal in the wild, I really would go nuts.

Don't go there. If you can't fix it, then
pretend it's not broken.

Quoted message said:

So I pretend "la-la-la-la"
that it's like Bambi out there.

SBH

"Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Helium maybe? <<

I think the PETA people have a lot of helium.

It's got to be cheaper than Nembutal.

I suppose that since you're opposed to "good-death"
for cats and dogs, you're also opposed to physician-
assisted suicide? There are a substantial number of
doctors in England pushing for physician-assisted
suicide I have heard. I sympathize with them.

We euthanized our beloved Portuguese Water Dog,
Gabbie, with Helium. (We didn't want a Vet to intrude
on this family event.) She went very peacefully, in
about 3-4 minutes. She was 13 and enduring a great
deal of "dis-ease".

A graduate student at MIT died of Helium breathing
a year or two ago. It was suspected that he was using
it recreationally--and got "carried away". (There were
no reports that he was depressed.)

I think it's good stuff when pain is unendurable and
apparently incurable. As Woody Allen said, "I don't
mind dying--I just don't want to be there when it happens."

George

"George Lagergren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sbharrisatsignix.netcom.com said:

No doubt, but I have the feeling that the birds and mice are more in
danger from the total population standard housecats that get outside
time, than from feral cats. Simply due to the numbers, and the fact
that cats hunt for "sport" as well as food. A lust for feathers and
flying stuff is written into their genes. They even have a "word" for
it. It's sort of a jaw-chatter.

A cat is basically a tiger, right?

Right, and both can be domesticated. There's a Buddhist
monastery in Thailand that offers a sanctuary to about one
dozen tigers. The monks form very affectionate bonds with
the tigers. The tigers submit to being walked on leashes
(something my Standard Poodle has yet to learn well).
Google <tigers buddhist monks> and you can see some of
the touching pictures and videos of these cross-species
friendships. It must be thrilling to have five large tigers take
turns nuzzling you.

George

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I suppose that since you're opposed to "good-death"

for cats and dogs, you're also opposed to physician-
assisted suicide?<<

COMMENT:

This question assumes facts not in evidence. I"m not opposed to
"good-death" in your sense for anybody or anything.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We euthanized our beloved Portuguese Water Dog, Gabbie, with Helium. (We didn't want a Vet to intrude

on this family event.) She went very peacefully, in about 3-4 minutes.
She was 13 and enduring a great
deal of "dis-ease". <<

COMMENT:

That's fine, but you took a big risk. This kind of thing is species
specific. We once had the bright idea of euthanizing a rabbit with
inert gas (nitrogen) and it went nuts. Humans and (apparently) dogs
don't have an "low-oxygen" sensor so they can breath inert gas and go
out without any discomfort (nitrogen has been seriously and
intelligently proposed for human gas chambers). Burrowing animals like
rabbits and ferrets certainly do have a low oxygen sensor, so you
wouldn't want to helium-ize THEM. For rodents and cats, I don't know. I
can't swear this is confined to burrowing animals. That's the point,
you never know till you try it. And if it doesn't work, be prepared to
quit and try something else.

SBH

Sbharrisatsignix.netcom.com said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ingrid Newkirk: "PETA usually takes the animals back to Norfolk to be euthanized, Newkirk said, in a process that involves a single hypodermic shot and a gentle caress. Very few are ever put up for adoption, she said. "We won't shy away from doing society's dirty work as long as the alternative is a life of misery and a bad or slow death," Newkirk said.<<

COMMENT:

My lab has fostered several hundred kittens and cats for adoption at
the local Petsmart, doing free neutering, spaying, virus testing, and
administering vaccines and treating all kinds of parasites first. We
get them from owners who know what happens when they take them to the
pound.

The only two cats we euthanized in the last two years have been a pet
with a horrid squamous cell mouth tumor (it was time), and a feral
tomcat with FIV AND FeLV who became a vicious biter after we got
through curing the mite diseases that had turned his heat and front
quarters into an infected mass of cardboard-like skin and crust.

We are in the process of working with the local city council to turn
the local animal shelter into a no-kill shelter, where no healthy
animal is euthanized. We think it's possible to save 80% of the animals
this way. Pilot programs in both rural New York State and city (San
Francisco) areas suggest it's possible.

Neither the Humane Society nor PETA is any help in this process at all.
PETA makes our research with dogs harder by making it impossible even
to get already-euthanized dogs from the pound (we could use them for
histology and thermal modeling). PETA figures these dogs have been
"through enough" and deserve a quiet cremation without any chance to
serve a better purpose. As for the Humane Society, they don't impede
research, but they don't help that much with the pet problem, either.
On the contrary, they seem to be fairly happy with the euthanasia
status quo. About as happy as PETA is, apparently. PETA figures the big
difference they make over the humane society is a *caress* before that
Euthasol is given. Our animals get a caress, but also ketamine,
acepromazine, and gas anesthesia. But we save many cats for every dog
we kill, and we breed the research dogs ourselves. They're not pets.

I would personally like to kick Ingred Newkirk's behind up around her
ears for the damage she's done to biomedical research. Failing that,
I'd like to force her to learn how to spay kittens, then make her do
few dozen, so she begins to have some innate understanding of the
animal control problem she thinks she's an expert in.

DAMN I hate people who can only shoot their mouths off, and are ever
good for any real work. People who criticise doctors without much
contact with the practice of medicine. People who criticise biomedical
research who have little understanding of science. People who have all
kinds of answers to animal control who've never been in the trenches
(or when they have, like PETA show their incompetence with solutions
everybody else either figured out long ago, or are in the process of
trying to change for the better.)

If I had PETA's 30 million a year I could convert a large part of
Southern California to no-kill shelters.

By the way, one wonders what PETA is using chemically for their
euthanasia. These things are all controlled substances. I have a DEA
number, the licensed vet on my staff has a DEA number, and my LAB has a
separate DEA licence. We have a monster drug safe, lots of oversite,
and all our i's are dotted and t's crossed. What about Ms. Newkirk?
Hey, FEDS! Pay attention.

SBH

Steve who are you? Are you a physician, or a vet, or... ? What does
"my lab" mean?

Zee

I am a medical doctor but presently am the director of a lab doing
basical biomedical research. Topics are resuscitation, liquid
ventilation, pharamaceutical drug delivery and microemulsions. Our
research model is the dog, which we breed in-house. We're also a
cat/kitten rescue and adoption service on the side, figuring to make up
for the bad dog-karma with some good cat-karma. We're under USDA
inspection as a research facility, and our consulting vet is involved
in both the research and the rescue work. This has given me the chance
to learn some vet stuff. It's amazing how much it overlaps with human
medicine. I would say 90% of it is the same.

SBH

Sbharrisatsignix.netcom.com said:

I am a medical doctor but presently am the director of a lab doing
basical biomedical research. Topics are resuscitation, liquid
ventilation, pharamaceutical drug delivery and microemulsions. Our
research model is the dog, which we breed in-house. We're also a
cat/kitten rescue and adoption service on the side, figuring to make up
for the bad dog-karma with some good cat-karma. We're under USDA
inspection as a research facility, and our consulting vet is involved
in both the research and the rescue work. This has given me the chance
to learn some vet stuff. It's amazing how much it overlaps with human
medicine. I would say 90% of it is the same.

SBH

Ouch. The golden retriever here said something I can't repeat. I'll
turn the monitor... .

Thanks for answering so candidly. I might have been PETA. Have you had
incidents?

I've worked pr for a wildlife rehab and done stories on 'incidents' at
a research lab. Seen cows with bras and windows in their sides geeeeeez
and once raised more mice than you can imagine when one of my children
had two as pets. How the hell was I supposed to know the pervert would
copulate with all his daughters as soon as he could...? By the time it
came to the white rats I knew better but the long pink tail that got
me. I didn't mind the recycling worms, rather admired them, but when it
came to the cockroaches brought home intentionally from entymology lab
I kacked.

Now, I look after old, ill dogs whose owners have moved on to far flung
universities, or when mom and dad, now childless but still with dog,
want to go on month long ski holidays or just work in ICUs 20 hour
shifts, but don't want to use kennels.

So am I qualified to be one of the experts here and sci.med or not?

zee

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So am I qualified to be one of the experts here and sci.med or not? <<

COMMENT:

No, for the lovely thing about animal care is that it's pretty
mechanistic, and if you can't figure out what's wrong with the animal,
that's the end of it. The critter either dies, or gets better, or gets
on with the disability, and doesn't spend all of it's time finding
fault with the world. Where you need experience, is the human side,
where for your enlightenment you must encounter a certain educational
number of patients weak and dizzy, numb and tingly, with difficulty in
memory and concentration (except when it comes to their symptom list),
chronic fatigue (except when it comes to battling the medical and legal
systems, where they have the strength and tenacity of Spiderman),
fibromyalgia (well, actually it all hurts), and symptomatic problems
with every single organ system. They've been dying of it for years,
sometimes decades. Some you can find illness in with lab results, and
some not. Obviously many of these people have some disease which does
not yet have a name. But nevertheless like Nostradamus nearly all of
them are convinced they can see into the future of medicine and they
even now know the cause, and (more importantly) *who is at fault.* It's
multiple chemical sensitivities and the poluting corporations. It's the
mercury in their teeth or their vaccines, or other insidious heavy
metals which need chelation. It's aspartame or Splenda or wheat gluten.
And when these things are removed, the disease keeps on going. So what?
It's undiagnosed Lyme disease or EBV or CMV or chronic virus du jour.
It's mycoplasma picked up in the first gulf war, or some nerve gas
antidote. Or some nerve gas. Or it's the anthrax vaccine. Or it's
fluoride in the water, or IGF in the milk. Whatever-- the toxin list is
nearly endless. But the main thing, is there's some axe to grind about
it, and somebody who's gunna PAY.

In some primative populations such as the Indians of the Amazon, it's a
common belief that people are naturally immortal. ALL disease and death
is therefore due to curses, to some malignant influence of some other
human being. The only trick, then, is to find the person who is doing
the evil. I've come to believe from reading anthropology and lots of
usenet that mankind is a natural witch-finding animal, and
witch-hunting is nearly the only thing we humans do all the time when
we're not thinking about food or sex or money or power or childcare.
And sometimes even then. If you look at TV, you'll see it's nearly all
witchhunting.

I've dealth with populations of naturally aging animals. I've seen most
of the same problems humans get, there. But no animal witches have I
discovered. As a doctor, I have dealt with the witchhunters. Sometimes
I've even been confused with the witch (get between witchhunter and
prey and see what happens). I've developed an aversion and fascination
with the process, and there are times when the world appears to me very
much like that scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail where they're
trying to figure out what to do with the witch. "And what floats?"
"Wood" "Very small rocks". Well, yes and no. The question is whether
or not we can make it out of the Dark Ages, or not. Part of what I'm
doing on this forum is talking about density and froth flotation and
skepticism and carrots on people's noses and burning at the stake.

And all the time I look at animals and I think of Walt Whitman:

I think i could turn and live with animals,
they are so placid and self-contained
I stand and look at them long and long .
They do not sweat and whine about their condition ,
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins ,
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God ,
Not one is dissatisfied ,
not one is demented with the mania of owning things ,
Not one kneels to another ,
nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago ,
Not one is respectable or industrious over the whole earth.

And all I can say is "Amen."

SBH

Sbharrisatsignix.netcom.com said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So am I qualified to be one of the experts here and sci.med or not? <<

COMMENT:

No, for the lovely thing about animal care is that it's pretty
mechanistic, and if you can't figure out what's wrong with the animal,
that's the end of it. The critter either dies, or gets better, or gets
on with the disability, and doesn't spend all of it's time finding
fault with the world. Where you need experience, is the human side,
where for your enlightenment you must encounter a certain educational
number of patients weak and dizzy, numb and tingly, with difficulty in
memory and concentration (except when it comes to their symptom list),
chronic fatigue (except when it comes to battling the medical and legal
systems, where they have the strength and tenacity of Spiderman),
fibromyalgia (well, actually it all hurts), and symptomatic problems
with every single organ system. They've been dying of it for years,
sometimes decades. Some you can find illness in with lab results, and
some not. Obviously many of these people have some disease which does
not yet have a name. But nevertheless like Nostradamus nearly all of
them are convinced they can see into the future of medicine and they
even now know the cause, and (more importantly) *who is at fault.* It's
multiple chemical sensitivities and the poluting corporations. It's the
mercury in their teeth or their vaccines, or other insidious heavy
metals which need chelation. It's aspartame or Splenda or wheat gluten.
And when these things are removed, the disease keeps on going. So what?
It's undiagnosed Lyme disease or EBV or CMV or chronic virus du jour.
It's mycoplasma picked up in the first gulf war, or some nerve gas
antidote. Or some nerve gas. Or it's the anthrax vaccine. Or it's
fluoride in the water, or IGF in the milk. Whatever-- the toxin list is
nearly endless. But the main thing, is there's some axe to grind about
it, and somebody who's gunna PAY.

But I've suffered ALL those things!

I'm dizzy. What more do you want!!

Did all the other posters here have to run this gauntlet? What kinds of
medical experts are they? David? Pizza Girl, TC...

Howcome I have to present qualifications? Ain't I a woman...?

Quoted message said:

In some primative populations such as the Indians of the Amazon, it's a
common belief that people are naturally immortal. ALL disease and death
is therefore due to curses, to some malignant influence of some other
human being. The only trick, then, is to find the person who is doing
the evil. I've come to believe from reading anthropology and lots of
usenet that mankind is a natural witch-finding animal, and
witch-hunting is nearly the only thing we humans do all the time when
we're not thinking about food or sex or money or power or childcare.
And sometimes even then. If you look at TV, you'll see it's nearly all
witchhunting.

I've dealth with populations of naturally aging animals. I've seen most
of the same problems humans get, there. But no animal witches have I
discovered. As a doctor, I have dealt with the witchhunters. Sometimes
I've even been confused with the witch (get between witchhunter and
prey and see what happens). I've developed an aversion and fascination
with the process, and there are times when the world appears to me very
much like that scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail where they're
trying to figure out what to do with the witch. "And what floats?"
"Wood" "Very small rocks". Well, yes and no. The question is whether
or not we can make it out of the Dark Ages, or not. Part of what I'm
doing on this forum is talking about density and froth flotation and
skepticism and carrots on people's noses and burning at the stake.

And all the time I look at animals and I think of Walt Whitman:

Well apparently he knew little about animals; which will bite us and
each other, kick--the same, stalk us and kill, nor has he seen just
about any animal 'kneeling' to another of it's kind...they will all.

Quoted message said:

I think i could turn and live with animals,
they are so placid and self-contained
I stand and look at them long and long .
They do not sweat and whine about their condition ,
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins ,
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God ,
Not one is dissatisfied ,
not one is demented with the mania of owning things ,
Not one kneels to another ,
nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago ,
Not one is respectable or industrious over the whole earth.

And all I can say is "Amen."

I'm an atheist. But since you used word it certainly does contradict
some part of your answer.

Would you just set out the rings and hoops I have to jump through to be
a member here? Google required nothing. Still, I do like a challenge...

Bring it on old man.

Zee

Quoted message said:

SBH