Perverse wheel build

The other day I wanted to put aluminum rims onto an old
cheap road bike I have, to allow it's use as a rain bike. I
had found a couple of wheels in the garbage earlier with
rims in OK condition, same number of spoke holes, only
smaller diameter than the original steel rims (622mm bead
seat versus 27" I guess).

After checking that the brakes would still work, I laced a
new rim onto the existing front hub and spokes, and to
compensate for the too-long spoke lengths I changed the
lacing pattern from 3x to 4x. For the rear wheel I was able
to use the spokes from the garbage wheel and lace them onto
the old hub with the same pattern, although I couldn't get
the valve hole between parallel spokes.

No problems getting either wheel round, true, tensioned or
dished, and I'm very curious to see how these wheels hold up
over time. It's a bit of a hobby of mine to go out riding on
garbage nights and salvage bikes people are throwing out,
then either fix them up or cannibilize them to fix up other
bikes, the goal being to make as many bikes safe and useable
as possible with no new parts (OK so I use new oil, grease,
and bearings..). It's amazing but I usually find many bikes
and bike parts, to the point where I reject about 50% of the
usable parts I find because it's too much stuff to move. I
don't really have any reason for doing this other than I
like building bikes and don't like paying for stuff to do it
with. Sometimes I trade the finished bikes away to people I
know for other things, and sometimes I ride them. My garage
is so full of wheels, tires, frames, whole bicycles and
other parts it's becoming a problem.

(and oh yeah the bike brakes a lot better now :-)

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Benjamin Lewis
Jobst, you may want to avert your eyes.

I found myself with a 28 hole rim and a 36 hole hub, and
decided, against my better judgment, to build a wheel
with them.

diagram:
cs.sfu.cawheel.pngOpen ↗ photo:
cs.sfu.cawheel3b.jpgOpen ↗

Spokes lengths were calculated using equations from The
Wheel Book, except for the calculations for spoke angles (T
in the book) which I had to figure out myself (they're just
linear combinations of the angle between rim holes and the
half-angle between hub holes). Four different lengths were
used, shown in different colours in the first image (spokes
on other side of wheel shown in grey).

The rim is a used Mavic Reflex. It is a socketed double
walled rim, but anodized and with welded joint.

Spokes are DT straight gauge. I was trying to do this
cheaply, and the LBS where I bought them didn't have butted
spokes in the lengths I needed anyway. In fact, they only
had spokes of even length, and my calculations called for
odd lengths after rounding down. In the end I got two of the
lengths rounded quite a bit down, and the other two rounded
slightly up. It worked okay.

Hub is some Shimano high flange that I found used; needless
to say I broke the wheel building rule against re-lacing a
hub in a different pattern. Furthermore, I couldn't figure
out any lacing pattern that didn't involve any radial
spokes, so I ended up with four of these (two per side). I
thought perhaps it wouldn't be quite as bad if I left the
holes in the hub adjacent to these spokes vacant. Bearing
races appeared to be in excellent condition; I replaced the
shot cones and bearings for a paltry sum.

The build wasn't too hard, especially after I applied little
coloured coded pieces of masking tape near the holes in the
hub and rim so I wouldn't get confused while lacing the
wheel. I couldn't do normal evening of tension by tone due
to the varying lengths, but I made sure that spokes of the
same length rang at the same pitch.

This wheel now lives on my fun-around-town-fixie, so I don't
expect it to ever have much weight on it.

Comments or criticisms other than "that's a dumb idea; it'll
break and you'll kill yourself" or "next time fork over the
extra cash and do it right" welcome 🙂

In unrelated news, my hair is now blue: cs.sfu.c-cs.sfu.c-Open ↗
a/~bclewis/personal/photos/misc/bhair2b.jpg

If you look closely you may notice where I singed part of my
right eyebrow in a barbecue incident.

--
Benjamin Lewis

On a paper submitted by a physicist colleague: "This isn't
right. This isn't even wrong." -- Wolfgang Pauli

Interesting project. I keep many rims, spokes, and hubs around.
I am not ready to go for the unconventional methods you employed because I want something that will be reliable.
I encourage people to follow "the Bicycle Wheel" principles:
"It may be futile to suggest the ordinary but let me try to persuade you that just to build conventional standard 36 spoke wheel is not a trivial task if a durable wheel is your goal. ....
Your true contribuion is to build conventional wheels exceptionally well." a quote from Jobst Brandt's book
I think some of the marketing hyped wheels that are out there because wheelsmiths aren't making their contributions and/or their contributions are undervalued/misunderstood.

Benjamin Lewis said:

Jobst, you may want to avert your eyes.

Quoted message said:

I found myself with a 28 hole rim and a 36 hole hub, and
decided, against my better judgment, to build a wheel
with them.

Quoted message said:

diagram:
cs.sfu.cawheel.pngOpen ↗
photo:
cs.sfu.cawheel3b.jpgOpen ↗

Commonly known as "Crowsfoot" spoke pattern described in
"the Bicycle Wheel".

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Interesting project. I keep many rims, spokes, and hubs
around. I am not ready to go for the unconventional
methods you employed because I want something that will be
reliable. I encourage people to follow "the Bicycle Wheel"
principles: "It may be futile to suggest the ordinary but
let me try to persuade you that just to build conventional
standard 36 spoke wheel is not a trivial task if a durable
wheel is your goal. .... Your true contribuion is to build
conventional wheels exceptionally well." a quote from
Jobst Brandt's book

Yes, I think that's excellent advice. On the other hand, I
often like doing things in unusual ways with what I have
at hand, even if it is less than ideal -- and I suspect
this wheel will still be more durable than many off-the-
shelf wheels.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.
-- Walt Kelly

jobst brandt said:

Benjamin Lewis said:

Jobst, you may want to avert your eyes.

Quoted message said:

I found myself with a 28 hole rim and a 36 hole hub, and
decided, against my better judgment, to build a wheel
with them.

Quoted message said:

diagram:
cs.sfu.cawheel.pngOpen ↗
photo:
cs.sfu.cawheel3b.jpgOpen ↗

Commonly known as "Crowsfoot" spoke pattern described in
"the Bicycle Wheel".

Yes, almost half of it is anyway. I'm not sure what the
lacing pattern for the other spokes (magenta and blue in the
diagram) should be called. It's not really 2-cross, in the
normal usage of the term. Perhaps "two trailing, two
leading?" The pattern on the reverse side is the same,
rotated by 90 degrees.

The diagram does not show inbound vs. outbound spokes, or
orientation of spoke crossings.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.
-- Walt Kelly

Benjamin Lewis said:

Quoted message said:

Jobst, you may want to avert your eyes.

Quoted message said:

I found myself with a 28 hole rim and a 36 hole hub, and
decided, against my better judgment, to build a wheel
with them.

Quoted message said:

diagram:
cs.sfu.cawheel.pngOpen ↗
photo:
cs.sfu.cawheel3b.jpgOpen ↗

Averting his eyes, Jobst replied:

Quoted message said:

Commonly known as "Crowsfoot" spoke pattern described in
"the Bicycle Wheel".

Actually, not exactly. The classic crowsfoot uses spokes in
groups of 3, one radial and two semi-tangent in each group.

Benjamin's setup alternates groups of 3 with groups of 4,
with the 4s being all semi-tangent.

Sheldon "Looks Like Fun!" Brown +----------------------------------------------
+
| My mind is aglow with whirling, transient | nodes of
| thought careening through a cosmic | vapor of invention!
| --Mel Brooks |
+----------------------------------------------+ Harris
Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX
617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗
sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>,

Benjamin Lewis said:

Jobst, you may want to avert your eyes.

I found myself with a 28 hole rim and a 36 hole hub, and
decided, against my better judgment, to build a wheel
with them.

diagram:
cs.sfu.cawheel.pngOpen ↗
photo:
cs.sfu.cawheel3b.jpgOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Comments or criticisms other than "that's a dumb idea;
it'll break and you'll kill yourself" or "next time fork
over the extra cash and do it right" welcome 🙂

In unrelated news, my hair is now blue: cs.sfu-cs.sfu-Open ↗
.ca/~bclewis/personal/photos/misc/bhair2b.jpg

If you look closely you may notice where I singed part of
my right eyebrow in a barbecue incident.

You're just a parade of bad personal judgment!

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden]
sfu.cawiredcolaOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio
Mazzoleni Fan Club

I found two more bikes in the trash tonight.

One of them, a mid-range looking ladies' Raleigh road bike,
has the nicest fenders and rack I've ever seen on it. Score.

Jacobe Hazzard said:

I found two more bikes in the trash tonight.

What do you do with surplus bikes? My enthusiasm for
rescuing bikes is beginning to wane, due to a lack of
anything to do with them. I did recently find some
people to take some off my hands, but that will only get
rid of a few...

Quoted message said:

One of them, a mid-range looking ladies' Raleigh road
bike, has the nicest fenders and rack I've ever seen on
it. Score.

Ah yes, always good to find ladies with nice racks...

Er, anyway, I can't seem to find any bikes with racks,
which stinks, because I'd like to put some free racks on
some of my bikes.
--
Rick Onanian

Rick Onanian said:

Jacobe Hazzard said:

I found two more bikes in the trash tonight.

What do you do with surplus bikes? My enthusiasm for
rescuing bikes is beginning to wane, due to a lack of
anything to do with them. I did recently find some people
to take some off my hands, but that will only get rid of
a few...

If you've run out of friends who need bicycles, you could
possibly try selling them or donating them to charities.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

One of them, a mid-range looking ladies' Raleigh road
bike, has the nicest fenders and rack I've ever seen on
it. Score.

Ah yes, always good to find ladies with nice racks...

Er, anyway, I can't seem to find any bikes with racks,
which stinks, because I'd like to put some free racks on
some of my bikes.

I just wish I could find some bikes *with wheels*! At the
moment I have three scavenged frames lying around, but only
one wheel. The wheels I do find almost invariably need to be
re-spoked, making spokes one of the more expensive parts of
the salvaged bike, along with brake pads and tires. (I
suppose I could try to re-use the old corroded non-SS
spokes, but I hate building wheels with these, especially
when mixed with new replacements for broken spokes).

--
Benjamin Lewis

Thyme's Law: Everything goes wrong at once.

Jacobe Hazzard said:

Hint: a *real* bike salvager will save working nipples,
even when the spokes are broken.

I guess I'm not a real bike salvager 🙂 At less than C$2, I
have no problem with springing for a set of new nipples. I
did this on a wheel I recently restored, which had been
using nipples for three different wrench sizes!

--
Benjamin Lewis

Thyme's Law: Everything goes wrong at once.

Rick Onanian said:

What do you do with surplus bikes? My enthusiasm for
rescuing bikes is beginning to wane, due to a lack of
anything to do with them. I did recently find some people
to take some off my hands, but that will only get rid of
a few...

Haha good question. I'm leaving town in a couple days and I
have to figure out how to hide 10 bikes in my garage so that
it doesn't look like a bike shop. That answer your question?
I give a few of them away, sometimes I ride a different bike
every day of the week, sometimes they just sit around,
destined for greater things. Mostly it's building them I
enjoy, finding creative ways to solve problems using only
trash. Doing things you're not supposed to and having the
results defend themselves. I'm sure that having a garage
full or working bikes can't be a bad thing, one day they'll
all find owners.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

One of them, a mid-range looking ladies' Raleigh road
bike, has the nicest fenders and rack I've ever seen on
it. Score.

Ah yes, always good to find ladies with nice racks...

Er, anyway, I can't seem to find any bikes with racks,
which stinks, because I'd like to put some free racks on
some of my bikes.

Yeah it has full coverage stainless steel fenders with solid
mounting hardware and cool stripes down them. The rack is
also very solid, looks to be steel maybe and MUCH better
made than the aluminum racks I break every season. I find a
lot of cool bits in the garbage, some recent things of
note: A front wheel with working Sturmey-Archer Dynohub; a
set of Biopace Chainrings; a high end Miele road frame
that after preliminary inspection appears to be in
excellent condition; the hugest centre-pull brake
calipers I've ever seen (used in a wheel-size
conversion project); a kryptonite lock with key(?); a
bag of kevlar beaded mountain tires, like new; etc
etc. Also last night (when I wasn't actively hunting
mind you, just riding around) I found a nice
skateboard that a friend of mine skated home on.

I am a little dismayed by the things that get thrown out
these days, but at the same time I notice there are a lot of
other people like me (some of them with flatbed trucks) who
are out every garbage night helping themselves. Every bike I
rescue is one less bike in a landfill and hopefully one less
department store cheapie that gets manufactured. Speaking of
which is there any way to reclaim old steel or non-eyleted
aluminum rims as scrap? I have a lot of them, but they wont
go in the recycling bin and the scrap yard I talked to
didn't want to deal with them either.

Benjamin Lewis said:

I just wish I could find some bikes *with wheels*! At the
moment I have three scavenged frames lying around, but
only one wheel. The wheels I do find almost invariably
need to be re-spoked, making spokes one of the more
expensive parts of the salvaged bike, along with brake
pads and tires. (I suppose I could try to re-use the old
corroded non-SS spokes, but I hate building wheels with
these, especially when mixed with new replacements for
broken spokes).

Not only do I find bikes with wheels, but I often find
wheels lying out alone. Don't ask me why. One day I
happened upon a bike with two wrecked wheels in the trash,
and was told by the occupant of the house that his roomate
had left all his stuff behind and now he was throwing it
all away. The next day, riding along and thinking how I
could ride that bike if I got some 700c or 27" wheels what
should I happen upon but two 27" wheels needing only a
little grease! I'm usually thinking "hmm, I could slap a
new rim on that and use it on bike x" or "that rim would go
great on bike y's front wheel" or "that hub looks like it's
in great condition". I also re-use spokes a lot, although
it's definitely more convenient to have a complete set than
do it piecewise (see my original post in this thread).
After a while you start developing a feel for what you can
get away with. I know that in many cases after I've lubed
the nipples, and tensioned and trued and stress relieved
the wheels, they are more durable than they were when they
were newly machine built. Certain experiments have resulted
in broken spokes (IE inside and outside spokes should never
be swapped).

Hint: a *real* bike salvager will save working nipples, even
when the spokes are broken.

Jacobe Hazzard said:

Also last night (when I wasn't actively hunting mind you,
just riding around) I found a nice skateboard that a
friend of mine skated home on.

I just got a phone call from the above mentioned friend, who
told me that after we parted ways while he was skating home
he also found another bike. It was a mountain bike with
straps, in good condition, and only needing new brake pads
up front he says. I think we should open a used bike shop.

"Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

First:

Quoted message said:

You're just a parade of bad personal judgment!

Second:

Quoted message said:

Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden]

sfu.cawiredcolaOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Heh :-)

And where is Fabrizio these days? I need to know what
colours are in before doing summer bike part shopping!
--
Mark South Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net <<Tiens!
Ce poulet a une grenade!

Benjamin Lewis said:

Jacobe Hazzard said:

Hint: a *real* bike salvager will save working nipples,
even when the spokes are broken.

I guess I'm not a real bike salvager 🙂 At less than C$2,
I have no problem with springing for a set of new nipples.
I did this on a wheel I recently restored, which had been
using nipples for three different wrench sizes!

It's not about saving money, it's about.. um.....

Another tip: bike shops are great places to look for
wheels. They are always convincing people to buy new wheels
and chuck their old, perfectly serviceable wheels.
Sometimes the rims are toasted, but more often they just
need to be trued. I guess either the shops are less skilled
at wheel repair than I, or more likely they make more money
off of new wheel sales.

Jacobe Hazzard said:

season. I find a lot of cool bits in the garbage, some
recent things of
note: A front wheel with working Sturmey-Archer Dynohub; a
set of Biopace Chainrings; a high end Miele road
frame that after preliminary inspection appears to be
in excellent condition; the hugest centre-pull brake
calipers I've ever seen (used in a wheel-size
conversion project); a kryptonite lock with key(?); a
bag of kevlar beaded mountain tires, like

Holy [censored]! You must be dumpster diving at bike shops...I
ought to do that. I mostly just curb-shop.

Quoted message said:

I am a little dismayed by the things that get thrown out
these days, but at the same time I notice there are a lot
of other people like me (some of them with flatbed trucks)
who are out every garbage night helping

I drive a pickup, and put on lots of miles regardless of
curb shopping; driving a truck sure makes it easy! 😉

Quoted message said:

themselves. Every bike I rescue is one less bike in a
landfill and hopefully one less department store cheapie
that gets manufactured.

Those are both great reasons to rescue. Thank you for
reminding me. I skipped a pair of bikes yesterday, one of
which may have been pretty good. Plus, I keep forgetting
that I'm looking for a 110 BCD crank...so I should at least
grab every bike I see and just dump any I don't want until
I find it.

Quoted message said:

Speaking of which is there any way to reclaim old steel or
non-eyleted aluminum rims as scrap? I have a lot of them,
but they wont go in the recycling bin and the scrap yard I
talked to didn't want to deal with them either.

Flatten them into blocks as best you can, sort them by
material, save them, and bring batches of them to scrap.

A pre-destroyed rim rotting in the landfill doesn't bother
me so much.
--
Rick Onanian

I think it looks cool! !t deserves a place on Sheldon's
site, at least. You will let us know how it works,
won't you?

- -

"May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear
for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner geocities.comczcornerOpen ↗

Rick Onanian said:

What do you do with surplus bikes? My enthusiasm for
rescuing bikes is beginning to wane, due to a lack of
anything to do with them.

deadbabybikes.orgbikes.htmOpen ↗
dclxvi.orgindex.htmlOpen ↗
cyclecide.com2003 fort collinsOpen ↗

There is *always* something to do with surplus bikes. Even
if it is not immediately recognizable as a good idea.

Chalo Colina