Personal Experience with Gym Work

Yes, that sounds about right. Sprinters such as Robbie McEwan who do heavy leg work tend to be very good in explosive sprints but wind up being at the back in the mountains.
I guess the way to win the TDF is to put more emphasis on time-trials and climbing. This seems to me why Lance is dominating the TDF lately. There are so many specialised climbers out there who can't time trial anywhere near as well, such as Ivan Basso.
Look at the recent TDF champs and you find they are first-class time trialers and strong climbers. Miguel Indurain was a brilliant time trialer but could climb, maybe as good as Armstrong. Ullrich was good in his day.
The sprinters do well in stage events but don't seem to have much impact in overall placings.

mezzinator said:

There seems to be a bit of debate in this forum as to whether gym work can help performance.

I've been doing heavy leg presses at the gym and found my ability to sprint has skyrocketed. I don't know anyone else who can keep up in a sprint and so will be starting track sprinting soon. 😎

BUT my endurance has gone to [censored]. Not that i had much as I'm 6'1" and a lean 200lbs so hills were never going to be my forte.

Although I so know another rider who is doing lighter leg work at the gym and claims his power is a little better and his endurance unnafected.

Down to personal body type I reckon.

WARNING - This post contains blatant name dropping 😄

Should sprinters do heavy leg work? ABSOLUTELY

Should mountain climbers and TT riders? Not really.

I was at a strength coaches course last weekend and was fortunate to be able to talk to Aussie sprint legend and former world champion Sean Eadie about his training.

He described sessions doing 250kg squats, 100kg explosive movements and explosive single leg, leg presses.

But then Sean Eadie and Co don't have to haul themselves over big mountains and their event lasts for about 4.5 seconds of peak power output.

Ahhh, Big Sean.

I tried to contact him to get tips on Sprinting and to see if he'd act as an email mentor. I wanted to learn from the BEST of the BEST!! 🙂

But the buggers at the AIS wouldn't have any of it. 😠

mezzinator said:

There seems to be a bit of debate in this forum as to whether gym work can help performance.

I've been doing heavy leg presses at the gym and found my ability to sprint has skyrocketed. I don't know anyone else who can keep up in a sprint and so will be starting track sprinting soon. 😎

BUT my endurance has gone to [censored].

Good for sprinting - bad for endurance. That pretty much summarizes the stickied debate on the subject.

The only other point I would add is I found leg-presses a waste of time. The movement places no stress on the lower back and I don't feel they don't do anything for me. But this is just my opinion and if a sprinter feels they work for him (or her) that's fine.

From my experience, weights do improve sprinting. I am currently training for exactly that - sprinting. I am doing a lot of lifting as well. Today I did high box step ups (21 inchs) with 124lbs, 5 sets of 2. I was just about at my max, concerning pure strength for those. I do use a powermeter, so I can track my improvement precisely. It is no surprise that I recently set a personal best wattage yesterday. I am also doing squats, deads, stiff-leg deads, trap bar deads, bulgarian single leg squats, leg curls, and lots of other stuff for upper body etc. I would say that single leg squats are hands down the hardest on my legs/glutes. It's the only lift that leaves me dead sore for days. I'm not sure if that's a good thing. With the other above lifts I can do them day after day, and recover well. Occasionally I will thrown in some leg presses, which I find hit my quads well.
I wish there was more info available on sprint cycle training, those trackies don't seem to give up much info.
I also wish I could train with someone who has simular goals. Of the few roadies I know around here, none of them care to sprint, at all. (maybe that's because they know I will beat them? ;-) It would be cool to lift with a training partner too.

What puzzles me a little is the fact the sprinters who win stages in the TDF still need to have the endurance to lead up to the sprint and be well placed within the group. So, although the sprinters don't seem to have as good overall endurance as the climbers/time-trialers, they can still endure the pace of a long stage. The best way a non-sprinter like Hamilton can get the better of a Petachi, I think, is to push the overall pace to avoid that sprint at the run up to the line. Otherwise, forget it. Petachi is too fast.

velomanct said:

From my experience, weights do improve sprinting. I am currently training for exactly that - sprinting. I am doing a lot of lifting as well. Today I did high box step ups (21 inchs) with 124lbs, 5 sets of 2. I was just about at my max, concerning pure strength for those. I do use a powermeter, so I can track my improvement precisely. It is no surprise that I recently set a personal best wattage yesterday. I am also doing squats, deads, stiff-leg deads, trap bar deads, bulgarian single leg squats, leg curls, and lots of other stuff for upper body etc. I would say that single leg squats are hands down the hardest on my legs/glutes. It's the only lift that leaves me dead sore for days. I'm not sure if that's a good thing. With the other above lifts I can do them day after day, and recover well. Occasionally I will thrown in some leg presses, which I find hit my quads well.
I wish there was more info available on sprint cycle training, those trackies don't seem to give up much info.
I also wish I could train with someone who has simular goals. Of the few roadies I know around here, none of them care to sprint, at all. (maybe that's because they know I will beat them? ;-) It would be cool to lift with a training partner too.

I know we all apparently had a gutfull debating the weights/cycling issue but I'm interested in the reverse side of the coin which is:
To what degree does cycling endurance training bring about strength/muscle loss?
What I find is that cycling doesn't really affect my leg and back strength negatively but it cripples my bench press.
I just started doing more boxer style training as I was very impressed by what Lennox Lewis had attained. Lennox has a 42 resting pulse, can run well enough to push the average jogger and his trainers says his cycling is relatively impressive (for a boxer).
Lennox does vastly more cardio than I do. So, how the heck can he bench press around 390 during training camp? You would think so much cardio would cripple his strength resources.
Although I eat a lot, I still find those 2 - 3 hour cycling sessions diminish my bench press a lot. So, why would cycling affect upper body strength so much or is this down to my ectomorph genetics?

Carrera said:

I know we all apparently had a gutfull debating the weights/cycling issue but I'm interested in the reverse side of the coin which is:
To what degree does cycling endurance training bring about strength/muscle loss?
What I find is that cycling doesn't really affect my leg and back strength negatively but it cripples my bench press.
I just started doing more boxer style training as I was very impressed by what Lennox Lewis had attained. Lennox has a 42 resting pulse, can run well enough to push the average jogger and his trainers says his cycling is relatively impressive (for a boxer).
Lennox does vastly more cardio than I do. So, how the heck can he bench press around 390 during training camp? You would think so much cardio would cripple his strength resources.
Although I eat a lot, I still find those 2 - 3 hour cycling sessions diminish my bench press a lot. So, why would cycling affect upper body strength so much or is this down to my ectomorph genetics?

I agree, bench pressing and cycling are the most complete opposites of abilities. After 6 years of cycling through my teens, I am lifting now, and my bench press is so pathetic. My max is still only about 160lbs.

I also noticed that my upper body muscles react a lot different to weights than my legs do. In the gym, I can push my legs through a lot more pain than I can with any upper body work. The difference is huge. My legs never reach a distinct point of muscle failure with sub-max weights, although things like 20 rep squats are incredibly painful. When doing pullups, or bench I just simply reach a point where I can't do another one.

Carrera said:

What puzzles me a little is the fact the sprinters who win stages in the TDF still need to have the endurance to lead up to the sprint and be well placed within the group. So, although the sprinters don't seem to have as good overall endurance as the climbers/time-trialers, they can still endure the pace of a long stage. The best way a non-sprinter like Hamilton can get the better of a Petachi, I think, is to push the overall pace to avoid that sprint at the run up to the line. Otherwise, forget it. Petachi is too fast.

The thing with road sprinters like petacchi and all them, they are an endurance athlete before they are a sprinter. They are not true sprinters, they just have the best sprint among the endurance athletes. Indeed they are very well rounded bike riders. You could take any top sprinter in the tour, and put them in a time trial against a DIV 3 pro, or top amauter level TT'er, and they would still put in a respectable time.
I remember that Cyclosport mag stated Petacchi had a threshold of 400watts. That is better than the majority of US domestic pros.

It's the same for me. I used to rep 300 in the bench but couldn't climb a tiny hill without wheezing and gasping for air. My cycling was pathetic at that time and my body like a cube.
Now my bench is way down. I can do 200 for a few brief reps and that's my lot.
So, I wonder how Lennox could bench 385 when he was doing so much aerobics? He must be very mesomorphic.
The thing is, a 385 bench at a weight of 245 pounds is well below par for a powerlifter but how many powerlifters are there out there who can run, cycle and swim like Lewis? I'll bet if they did their poundages would crash. Boxers these days seem to have attained a trade-off that leaves them with a pretty decent balance. How they do it I don't quite know. Steroids are certainly a factor as well as the right genetics.

velomanct said:

I agree, bench pressing and cycling are the most complete opposites of abilities. After 6 years of cycling through my teens, I am lifting now, and my bench press is so pathetic. My max is still only about 160lbs.

I also noticed that my upper body muscles react a lot different to weights than my legs do. In the gym, I can push my legs through a lot more pain than I can with any upper body work. The difference is huge. My legs never reach a distinct point of muscle failure with sub-max weights, although things like 20 rep squats are incredibly painful. When doing pullups, or bench I just simply reach a point where I can't do another one.

there is a camp here who go to the extreme of recommending no weight training for cyling ever, stating it has no advantage. this, of course is an extreme view that conflicts with the evidence proveded by cyclists who have had positive results.

a brief snapshot of my personal experiences with weight training and cycling.

when i started cycling seriously, i had been lifting in the gym for over 5 yrs.
some examples, squats, 400+ lb.s for 20 reps.
calfraises, 400 lb.s for 20 reps
dips, bodyweight + 45 lb.s for 20 reps
bent rows w/ bar, 225 for 20 reps

the above were with good form and not to failure.

i started mtb riding, and found xc racing was won on the climbs and endurace levels. but it taught bike razor sharp handling.

started on the road, group rides came next. the first sprints i encountered seemed like no big deal.

got coaching from joining a team with emphasis on new rider development.

also attended crit and tt clinics.

the result of the leg power from weights:
when the team practiced sprints, during the initial jump i would match the district champs and their equals. i needed to jump with a soft edge or the whole bike would flex, stuff would happen like the chain jumping cogs and the back (and front) wheel skipping and hopping up, down, and from side to side.
then as the speed progressed, i would not match the top end.

also at this time, upon hitting slight uphills on group rides, i could mash the big ring past all and no one could respond. the same for short steep hills.
as the climbs became longer and steeper i would slip (way) back though.

i attribute these early cycling results from weight training from having more total output, but less power to weight ratio.
also more explosive power but less power at longer durations.
or, more short term high ouptput and less long term medium output.

this may be due to the fact, when it comes to musculature
"you gotta oxygenate that [censored]"
as i was told by a sprint champ.

this did change over time as i put in the miles and reduced the weights. i became able to contest sprints if the sprint length fell into being short and i had not been putting out high output for long prior, or the finish was close enough so as to jump to the line. many times i just sat on until the leaders had done all they could then just went around.

this got me some wins and placings as a cat 5. also lotsa primes. as i went up in categories, i noticed the wind up to sprints was longer. holding 30 is crucial.
this provides the selection of those who can place or win.

so is sprinting two or three times for positioning. so are false jumps and windups and patiently backing off strategicaly as a precursor to the real thing,
the final end game.

lifting may help some for this. you must try and see. from my experience the concept of starting with much more low end initial power than needed and working on and developing speed and endurance was how my cycling emerged.
as for now, i have not lifted this season but still posses a jump over most.
the muscular power advantage from lifting over riders who have much more talent and miles seems to hold strong.

it comes down to adapting to resistance, and mixing weights in can make a difference. it is nice to have something to start with.

note how many crits are decided in the final end game, where power output in the short term is the deciding factor.
also the last kilometer of any rr, just look at the weight training that was done by rory o'reily , world record holder, and how his results were a record that held for over ten years.

i am no expert, but i would advise to avoid the extreme view that the cyclist should avoid all weight training as an ultimatum. this view brings us back to the "just ride bike" mentality that only allows the natural talent to emerge, and does not tale advantage of the power and strength provided by adapting to weight training.

mezzinator said:

There seems to be a bit of debate in this forum as to whether gym work can help performance.

I've been doing heavy leg presses at the gym and found my ability to sprint has skyrocketed. I don't know anyone else who can keep up in a sprint and so will be starting track sprinting soon. 😎

BUT my endurance has gone to [censored]. Not that i had much as I'm 6'1" and a lean 200lbs so hills were never going to be my forte.

Although I so know another rider who is doing lighter leg work at the gym and claims his power is a little better and his endurance unnafected.

Down to personal body type I reckon.

Carrera said:

It's the same for me. I used to rep 300 in the bench but couldn't climb a tiny hill without wheezing and gasping for air. My cycling was pathetic at that time and my body like a cube.
Now my bench is way down. I can do 200 for a few brief reps and that's my lot.
So, I wonder how Lennox could bench 385 when he was doing so much aerobics? He must be very mesomorphic.
The thing is, a 385 bench at a weight of 245 pounds is well below par for a powerlifter but how many powerlifters are there out there who can run, cycle and swim like Lewis? I'll bet if they did their poundages would crash. Boxers these days seem to have attained a trade-off that leaves them with a pretty decent balance. How they do it I don't quite know. Steroids are certainly a factor as well as the right genetics.

boxers are very well rounded athletes as well. It is tough to be "good" at both ends of the performance spectrum.

well, I just got back from another ride where I did a new max wattage, 1832. I am really starting to notice the effect of weight training on my sprinting. I'm loving it

velomanct said:

The thing with road sprinters like petacchi and all them, they are an endurance athlete before they are a sprinter. They are not true sprinters, they just have the best sprint among the endurance athletes. Indeed they are very well rounded bike riders. You could take any top sprinter in the tour, and put them in a time trial against a DIV 3 pro, or top amauter level TT'er, and they would still put in a respectable time.
I remember that Cyclosport mag stated Petacchi had a threshold of 400watts. That is better than the majority of US domestic pros.

Agree, and wouldn't the 500m track sprinters even have a ton more peak power than a great road sprinter? Surely it all comes down to the degree of specialization.

Hypnospin said:

there is a camp here who go to the extreme of recommending no weight training for cyling ever, stating it has no advantage. this, of course is an extreme view that conflicts with the evidence proveded by cyclists who have had positive results.

Can you provide a link to a post that has gone to this extreme and states that there is *no* advantage? All the posters I remember conceded that weight training can benefit the sprinting aspect of cycling. That seems consistent with the positive results to your ability to make a strong "jump."

The other side of the coin is that, since cycling is mostly an endurance sport, what benefit would you have seen if you had spent your gym time doing zone 5 intervals instead? There's really no way to know, but do you want to spend your time preparing for 99% of the race, or the other 1%? That seems to be the reason that weight training is not recommended by some of the coaches here.

frenchyge said:

Agree, and wouldn't the 500m track sprinters even have a ton more peak power than a great road sprinter? Surely it all comes down to the degree of specialization.

absolutely. I would say there is quite a difference between the top road sprinters and top match sprinters.

When I was 16, I would squat with 600 pounds and work down to 200 for well over 20 sets over a period of time. I only weighed about 180 pounds max. But to try and do that again in my forties would be lunacy, hence I ride my bike and develop fitness.
Hopefully we won't all get into this argument over weights/cycling again as the thread has already been hammered elsewhere. 🙂
What interests me is the idea of a balance between fitness and resistance work. I think about cycling for fitness, weights for a little strength and maybe boxing or kickboxing to develop flexibility.
Is it a good idea to combine sports do you think?
Hey, my pulse was in the forties again this morning so the cycling seems to be helping me get fitter. 🙂

Hypnospin said:

there is a camp here who go to the extreme of recommending no weight training for cyling ever, stating it has no advantage. this, of course is an extreme view that conflicts with the evidence proveded by cyclists who have had positive results.

a brief snapshot of my personal experiences with weight training and cycling.

when i started cycling seriously, i had been lifting in the gym for over 5 yrs.
some examples, squats, 400+ lb.s for 20 reps.
calfraises, 400 lb.s for 20 reps
dips, bodyweight + 45 lb.s for 20 reps
bent rows w/ bar, 225 for 20 reps

the above were with good form and not to failure.

i started mtb riding, and found xc racing was won on the climbs and endurace levels. but it taught bike razor sharp handling.

started on the road, group rides came next. the first sprints i encountered seemed like no big deal.

got coaching from joining a team with emphasis on new rider development.

also attended crit and tt clinics.

the result of the leg power from weights:
when the team practiced sprints, during the initial jump i would match the district champs and their equals. i needed to jump with a soft edge or the whole bike would flex, stuff would happen like the chain jumping cogs and the back (and front) wheel skipping and hopping up, down, and from side to side.
then as the speed progressed, i would not match the top end.

also at this time, upon hitting slight uphills on group rides, i could mash the big ring past all and no one could respond. the same for short steep hills.
as the climbs became longer and steeper i would slip (way) back though.

i attribute these early cycling results from weight training from having more total output, but less power to weight ratio.
also more explosive power but less power at longer durations.
or, more short term high ouptput and less long term medium output.

this may be due to the fact, when it comes to musculature
"you gotta oxygenate that [censored]"
as i was told by a sprint champ.

this did change over time as i put in the miles and reduced the weights. i became able to contest sprints if the sprint length fell into being short and i had not been putting out high output for long prior, or the finish was close enough so as to jump to the line. many times i just sat on until the leaders had done all they could then just went around.

this got me some wins and placings as a cat 5. also lotsa primes. as i went up in categories, i noticed the wind up to sprints was longer. holding 30 is crucial.
this provides the selection of those who can place or win.

so is sprinting two or three times for positioning. so are false jumps and windups and patiently backing off strategicaly as a precursor to the real thing,
the final end game.

lifting may help some for this. you must try and see. from my experience the concept of starting with much more low end initial power than needed and working on and developing speed and endurance was how my cycling emerged.
as for now, i have not lifted this season but still posses a jump over most.
the muscular power advantage from lifting over riders who have much more talent and miles seems to hold strong.

it comes down to adapting to resistance, and mixing weights in can make a difference. it is nice to have something to start with.

note how many crits are decided in the final end game, where power output in the short term is the deciding factor.
also the last kilometer of any rr, just look at the weight training that was done by rory o'reily , world record holder, and how his results were a record that held for over ten years.

i am no expert, but i would advise to avoid the extreme view that the cyclist should avoid all weight training as an ultimatum. this view brings us back to the "just ride bike" mentality that only allows the natural talent to emerge, and does not tale advantage of the power and strength provided by adapting to weight training.

I just got back from a cycling session and I'm cooked. I'm lucky that the terrain in my area is perfect for circuit training.
Has anyone ever tried blasting up a long, winding, steep hill in a fairly big gear so you're climbing flat out over some 15 minutes? Makes leg-presses seem like kids stuff. By the time you complete the initial climb, your lungs are pumping like a pair of bellows. Then, if you have the fitness to keep going fast on the flat, your pulse rate is guaranteed to be soaring.
The training I did today isn't much good for endurance - it's basically flat out climbing for a solid hour, mostly on the big chain ring. What I can say, though, is it sure makes you sweat. 😠

Carrera said:

The training I did today isn't much good for endurance - it's basically flat out climbing for a solid hour, mostly on the big chain ring. What I can say, though, is it sure makes you sweat. 😠

What do you mean not good for endurance? That sounds like 1hr near 40K TT power to me.

If so, then that puts you in zone 4 of this chart, with tons of endurance benefits. pezcyclingnews.compezcyclingnews.comOpen ↗