Perhaps my coach overprescribed intervals?

This is too much. You should be able to complete your intervals strongly. Are you performing regular time trials and checking your resting heart rate? Two great ways to test for overtraining. Also, be sensitive to any degradations in your mood, libido, appetite, ability to sleep soundly, general vigor, etc...

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Aztec


By the third round of the two 3 min max efforts, my speed/power was really dropping hard.

What was the prescribed power for the 3 minute interval? Also, what's your threshold power? What was your power for the first interval vs. the last?

Beerco, this isn't power-based training. My HAC4 isn't accurate enough to use for that (although I am ordering a Powertap to take care of that). So, I have to go only by HR.

I can tell you this much -- my speed, where terrain was comparable, dropped from ~27mph in the first interval down to ~21 mph.

Fstrnme, I do TTs ever 2 months. Next one is a week away. I fairly regularly check RHR at work midday, and it's been right in the normal range, maybe +2-3 bpm, which seems normal (it varies anyway).

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Aztec
I can tell you this much -- my speed, where terrain was comparable, dropped from ~27mph in the first interval down to ~21 mph.

There's a couple schools of thought on this - One is that when doing these short intervals you should go all out and just do them till you drop (which is what you're doing).

The other is to start the first one at a level that you can just barely maintain on the last interval. Very difficult to do without a power meter.

Both have evidence supporting their value. You're paying your coach....why second guess him?

Well, I'm 2nd guessing because I felt so blasted still when the next workout came around. I wouldn't evenhave gone INTO the intervals strong. It may not be that the workout is too hard; could just be too many times in that one week.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Aztec
Well, I'm 2nd guessing because I felt so blasted still when the next workout came around. I wouldn't evenhave gone INTO the intervals strong. It may not be that the workout is too hard; could just be too many times in that one week.

Take a day off and see if you feel better. But don't forget, training's hard!

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Aztec
I am coached by CTS. My schedule is essentially broken in months where each of the first 3 weeks gets progressively harder, and then the 4th week is really easy.

This week was moderate in total volume (about 8 hours of endurance work), but also had max effort intervals for last Saturday, Tues, Thurs, and then again today. Each one was to be 3 mins max effort, followed by 3 mins easy effort, then 3 mins max again, and then 10 mins easy. Repeat two more times. Cadence at least 110+, flat ground.

By the third round of the two 3 min max efforts, my speed/power was really dropping hard. Yesterday, after 3 such workouts in 7 days, I felt listless, so I skipped the intervals entirely today and just did 2 slow hours of easy riding. I really have two questions:

1) Is it expected (and OK) to have each interval weaker? Or am I training myself to go slower?

2) Is this just too darn much? I've been slowly building intensity (and volume) up for coming up on a year now (after 15 years off!), so my base fitness is decent but not magical, that's for sure.

I double-checked with my coach to ensure that this is what he intended. Note also that I have a practice crit next Tues, too!

Thanks for your opinions. I'm curious to hear whether this seems sound and I'm just a sissy, or if indeed this looks like a lot.

You need to speak to your coach. If you are not recovering sufficiently between sessions then you are not going to react to the training the way that he or she intended.
You need to talk to them about what is aim of the training session and also recovery strategies.
A list of training sessions on a sheet of paper is not coaching!You need to get feedback and advice.
Good luck!

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Aztec
I am coached by CTS. My schedule is essentially broken in months where each of the first 3 weeks gets progressively harder, and then the 4th week is really easy.

This week was moderate in total volume (about 8 hours of endurance work), but also had max effort intervals for last Saturday, Tues, Thurs, and then again today. Each one was to be 3 mins max effort, followed by 3 mins easy effort, then 3 mins max again, and then 10 mins easy. Repeat two more times. Cadence at least 110+, flat ground.

I agree with other posters and I would just add that the problem seems to be that you are doing 3 minutes of "max effort" rather than 3 minutes at or slightly above lactate threshhold. Most of what I am reading is recommending doing LT intervals to increase lactate clearance. Also, I don't see how anyone could recover from 3 minutes of max effort in 3 minutes of easy effort. Are you sure that your coach is asking for "max effort"?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Randybaker99
I agree with other posters and I would just add that the problem seems to be that you are doing 3 minutes of "max effort" rather than 3 minutes at or slightly above lactate threshhold. Most of what I am reading is recommending doing LT intervals to increase lactate clearance. Also, I don't see how anyone could recover from 3 minutes of max effort in 3 minutes of easy effort. Are you sure that your coach is asking for "max effort"?

Max effort tends to imply VO2 max work although 3 mins is right at the bottom of the range for this type of interval I would have thought. You also really need to be able to complete the intervals at the same pace, so complete recovery is needed between each.Rest interval is generally the same length as work but longer can be needed(complete recovery being hr down to that coresponding to 1mmol/l found during testing-AI HR).
Hard to know when it isn't known what the coach intends for progression in training. More communication needed.

I get lots of communication; I just tried to spare everyone from a really long post.

The point of the intervals is indeed for VO2 max.

I have spent the last 2 months or so doing 2 days/week of 24-36 mins of interval work just below LT.

It is quite effective to group VO2 max sessions together into 10 day or 2 week period before lowering the intensity again and focusing on the general aerobic and LT work. This only works if the HARD sessions are the focus and you do everything possible to recover well between sessions. Sleeping well, drinking well and all the other usual stuff.
For whatever reason you aren't recovered sufficiently and so the VO2 max sessions will not be stressing your VO2 system maximally.
Other training sessions should be used as just recovery rides if this is the type of training system that your coach has in mind, so that you can get the most benefit from the hard sessions.
SO....
either he has over prescribed the hard sessions
or overprescribed the training between the hard sessions
or you are not recovering as quickly as he thought between training sessions for any one of a number of reasons.

In my humble opinion. And that is all any of us can give.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Aztec
I get lots of communication; I just tried to spare everyone from a really long post.

The point of the intervals is indeed for VO2 max.

I have spent the last 2 months or so doing 2 days/week of 24-36 mins of interval work just below LT.

Yep, and that makes sense to me. I think it's a combo of underrecovering and too condensed of a schedule.

"I'm curious to hear whether this seems sound and I'm just a sissy, or if indeed this looks like a lot."

Try harder, It's not that much. Plus, that is what training is all about.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Aztec
2) Is this just too darn much? I've been slowly building intensity (and volume) up for coming up on a year now (after 15 years off!), so my base fitness is decent but not magical, that's for sure.
[/B]

Like others have mentioned...... proper rest, nutrition, and a day off from time to time is all completely healthy responses to riding. Its good to reflect after a ride..... what happened, etc. Also, to quickly refuel after a ride- any ride, get that food and gateraide/smoothy back into that operating system !

I am no cycling training/racing master, mind you .... but I am a scholar of sorts when it comes to cycling + I have some years behind me, and in front of me of riding(road, MTB, etc).

Since you've just gotten back into cycling for about a year now..... after a long time off , I would attribute this factor majorly into your overall satisfaction.. or dissatisfaction of your current riding performance.

I'd suggest giving yourself another 1-2 years of good solid overall base training........ working in some good group rides in there..... and see how you progress from there. I come from the mind set of several years of riding- in varying elements/condition not only adds character to yourself as a rider....... but majorly contributes to how comfortable your are in the saddle, knowing your limits(how hard you can push yourself.... and for how long), bike handling skills.... , and the list goes on. Hopefully you live in a place where you can ride year round(out on the open roads, cycle tainers dont count !)........ that also contributes to how "hard core" of a rider you end up being.

I guess it depends how you want to measure your overall performance as a rider( how well you do in races , .... or having a certain of miles you want to ride in a year , etc.)

**Also, Have FUN out there.......... dont take the riding so seriously(accept on a saftey persepctive) , and who knows you might surprise yourself . After all , its about our good memories of the past(riding).... that pushes us all to ride longer+stronger tomorrow.

Just some thoughts :-)

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Adam-from-SLO
I'd suggest giving yourself another 1-2 years of good solid overall base training........ working in some good group rides in there..... and see how you progress from there.

I think this is a good point. While it is great to have stretch goals, it is also important to view this as a long term effort - i.e. 2-3 years.

I am also getting back to biking after a long break of about 12 years and while I am enjoying being focused and goal oriented, and seeing results, I also see great value in thinking about the goals that are not realistic for this year, but may be within reach in 2-3. This seems to be giving me an ability to enjoy myself in the present moment.

I am very impressed at the training plan that you are pursuing, way to go! But if you are having difficulty progressing at the pace that you (or your coach) have set, it may be that your body needs more seasons to reach your highest levels of performance. There is nothing sissy about having realistic, multi-year goals, especially when you actually achieve them and are whipping the riders who are 10 years younger but are impatient in their training.

From what I am hearing in your post and replies, you seem to be putting in the effort (forget about comments like "just try harder"😉 so one might wonder if your physiology requires a slightly longer time horizon.

If you are keeping a detailed training log, maybe it is time to review it and reflect on how far you have come already. There is nothing wrong with pushing oneself, but being impatient could really backfire - if you injure yourself by pushing too hard, then you will be losing all the ground you have gained to this point.

Just my perspective - enjoy your ride.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Randybaker99
I think this is a good point. While it is great to have stretch goals, it is also important to view this as a long term effort - i.e. 2-3 years.

I am also getting back to biking after a long break of about 12 years and while I am enjoying being focused and goal oriented, and seeing results, I also see great value in thinking about the goals that are not realistic for this year, but may be within reach in 2-3. This seems to be giving me an ability to enjoy myself in the present moment.

I am very impressed at the training plan that you are pursuing, way to go! But if you are having difficulty progressing at the pace that you (or your coach) have set, it may be that your body needs more seasons to reach your highest levels of performance. There is nothing sissy about having realistic, multi-year goals, especially when you actually achieve them and are whipping the riders who are 10 years younger but are impatient in their training.

From what I am hearing in your post and replies, you seem to be putting in the effort (forget about comments like "just try harder"😉 so one might wonder if your physiology requires a slightly longer time horizon.

If you are keeping a detailed training log, maybe it is time to review it and reflect on how far you have come already. There is nothing wrong with pushing oneself, but being impatient could really backfire - if you injure yourself by pushing too hard, then you will be losing all the ground you have gained to this point.

Just my perspective - enjoy your ride.

Exactly........ Randy said it right on !!!

Many riders expect results ASAP..... that same season, etc. Immediate results are not realistic on ANY rider, really at any given time. All this stuff needs time to progress, marinate, so as I rider you develop at "what ever" pace, or evolution you progress at. No two riders are exactly the same , so that I why I view alot of these "fitness, or performance programs" as a good GUIDE in terms of what is possible.......... but that does not mean that as a rider thats what you HAVE TO DO in order to progress. $hit , I know some riders that barely ride(5-10 hours per week)...... yet find it in them to really kick butt come race day..... 😉 .... you just never know.

Bottom line though, stay SAFE ....... listen to your body .......... because you do not want to inadvertantly injure yourself while on the bike.... or off the bike....... which would slow/hinder your current riding performance("X" amount of miles you've already put in).

Hope all goes well. 🙂

Well, on the point of looking at my progress to date...

This weekend was my 2 month checkup, via two 3 mile time trials. I ended up quitting after 1 mile. My legs were toast -- on fire and nothing there -- and my split time was so poor that I would've finished worse than back in October when I started training with structure and purpose. And this was after a nice rest week (only 3 rides, one recovey and two easy ones, since a Tues crit).

I hear you on patience. I expect to be slow adapting. I always have to work 2x as hard, rest/eat 2x as carefully, time workouts with precision, etc., all for about half the results of others. This isn't just for riding, but rather lifting weights, running, whatever.