Pedal physiology

Quoted message said:

How much performance increase does one really get with clipless pedals,
or is one supposed to get? Perhaps I am not getting a performance
advantage **because** my feet are compromised?

There is a massive performance increase, but it's really only there when
going up hills or accelerating fast - you can get loads more power down.

They're also useful for keping feet on pedals in the event off a dodgy gear
change or bumpy road/track.

On the flat in normal cycling the difference doesn't seem to be that great,
but I do 99% of my cycling on road.

Roger said:

What is a problem is that on longer rides my knees and feet ache in a
way that never used to happen before. Going downhill or easy pedalling I
often pedal unclipped to give my knees and feet a break.

I have read up on the issue and I know that this kind of problem may be
caused by inadequate float. Eggbeaters have no float adjustment, but
don't seem to need it. But I have also read that the problem may be
caused by incorrect bone arrangements. Allthougth clipless pedals offer
float, they float around normal feet positions and angles, if your feet
are unusual the pedal will be holding them in an unusual position. The
only cure is specially adapted shoes. This could well be my case as I
know my feet are not perfect, in fact I use instep inserts in my normal
shoes.

Three things.
One: have you tried instep inserts in your cycling shoes? The soles of
clipless compatible shoes tend to be rigid to improve performance - how
would this compare to your previous cycling shoes?

Two: There is one thing you have not mentioned which is adjustable on
most pedal systems - the position of the cleat on the shoe. This is
usually adjustable for fore/aft position and angle. The angle will
determine where the float actually begins and ends as well as where the
pedal clips out. This can have a dramatic effect on the knees especially
if the float is spring centered. I read some advice which worked for me
to establish whether my natural foot position is toes in or toes out. I
was surprised to find my toes naturally point out and I'd adjusted my
cleat angle on the assumption my toes pointed in. That gave me real
problems until corrected.

Three: A minor one in most cases, but I get this if I swap between Look
and SPD pedals on my road bike. Has the height of your foot above the
pedal changed as a result of changing to toeclips. I have to move the
saddle height to compensate in the scenario I mentioned.

Quoted message said:

So now I am asking myself is it all worth it? I have not really noticed
any great gain from using the pedals. My previous pedaling style on
normal pedals was not to pump but to keep the pressure light and try as
spin as much as possible. With a good pedal/shoe combination I was able
to apply force right up to a vertical cranshaft and get a nearly
complete cycle. I can do bunny hops, but that is reaaly the only gain I
have found.

With practice you can develop more power by being able to pull up on the
back pedal. Also, during bumpy stuff, your feet don't slip off the pedals.

Quoted message said:

How much performance increase does one really get with clipless pedals,
or is one supposed to get? Perhaps I am not getting a performance
advantage **because** my feet are compromised?

That's a distinct possibility. I have heard figures of 25 to 30% more
power through use of toeclips, but I have never measured it myself. I
have noticed its a lot easier to get up hills with toeclips than without.

JimP

--
Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable, let's prepare to
grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after
all. - DNA

Roger said:

What is a problem is that on longer rides my knees and feet ache in a
way that never used to happen before.

I've started using clipless for the first time this past month, and on
my first longer ride my right foot was aching like buggery after ten
miles or so. It felt as if I wanted to rotate my foot about a vertical
axis, just very slightly, so I adjusted the angle of the cleats a
smidgen. The pain went away immediately and stayed away.

R.

Jim Price said:

I read some advice which worked for me
to establish whether my natural foot position is toes in or toes out.

I'll add to that the advice I read prior to fitting my first set of
cleats, which worked for me. Sit on a table and let your feet dangle.
Look at the angle they dangle at relative to straight ahead. That's the
angle the pedals should hold them at when clipped in.

To the OP, my knees do better over long distances with properly clipped
in SPD's than with either clips and straps, or with no retention system
at all. Of course, YMMV.

--
Danny Colyer <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
Subscribe to PlusNet <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/referral/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Roger said:

I do XC cycling. Typically 20KM to 60KM with more track than tarmac. I
used to use normal pedals but as everybody I cycle with uses SPD's or
eggbeaters, and swears they are so much better, so I splashed out on a
pair of Candy C eggbeaters.

I expected to take time to get used to them. But it's been a month now
and I am still not getting there! What I expected to be a problem was
not, I can easily clip in and out of the pedals, and there is some free
play. My feet are not frozen in. I have them on the easy release setting
and have fitted the shims.

What is a problem is that on longer rides my knees and feet ache in a
way that never used to happen before. Going downhill or easy pedalling I
often pedal unclipped to give my knees and feet a break.

I have read up on the issue and I know that this kind of problem may be
caused by inadequate float. Eggbeaters have no float adjustment, but
don't seem to need it. But I have also read that the problem may be
caused by incorrect bone arrangements. Allthougth clipless pedals offer
float, they float around normal feet positions and angles, if your feet
are unusual the pedal will be holding them in an unusual position. The
only cure is specially adapted shoes. This could well be my case as I
know my feet are not perfect, in fact I use instep inserts in my normal
shoes.

Sit on the corner of a table so your feet are off the floor and let your
feet hang naturally and comfortably. Note the relative angles your feet
adopt: due north, slightly west of north, or whatever. Adjust your
cleats to ensure your feet take up these positions when clipped in
(remember you're looking at a mirror image when looking at the sole of
the shoe ;-) )

Try this and it may well help.

--
Brian G

Roger said:

I expected to take time to get used to them [clipless
eggbeaters]. <snip>

What is a problem is that on longer rides my knees and feet ache
in a way that never used to happen before. Going downhill or
easy pedalling I often pedal unclipped to give my knees and feet
a break.

Try adjusting the setup in the shoe. What you can generally do is
move the cleats back or forward, and change the direction of point
by a smmidge either turning in or out.

Because the pedals hold your feet in more a less one place, if
you're used to pedalling with a different axis on the pedal it
migfht lead to problems. Fiddling about with the fore/aft osition
and orientation of the cleats may well change things to more like
you'd place your foot on a platform.

As a test you might try marking on the platfrom pedal exactly where
your foot lies relative to the pedal axle, and then compare and
contrast that to where it lies on the clipless one. Try and get
them as close as possible.

Another thing that's /possible/ is that the effectively high
thickness of the eggbeaters (the way the clips stand up from them
more than most clipless pedals) has effectively brought your saddle
down a notch. You may want to try checking it's still right.

Quoted message said:

So now I am asking myself is it all worth it? I have not really
noticed any great gain from using the pedals. My previous
pedaling style on normal pedals was not to pump but to keep the
pressure light and try as spin as much as possible.

That's what I do, and I find it works /much/ better in clipless,
because your feet stay in place and can apply power even at very
high cadence, and all around the pedal cycle (i.e., pushing
forwards at the 12 o'clock "dead spot"😉.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Danny Colyer said:

Jim Price said:

I read some advice which worked for me to establish whether my natural
foot position is toes in or toes out.

I'll add to that the advice I read prior to fitting my first set of
cleats, which worked for me. Sit on a table and let your feet dangle.
Look at the angle they dangle at relative to straight ahead. That's the
angle the pedals should hold them at when clipped in.

Substitute chest of drawers for table, and that's what I did.

JimP

--
Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable, let's prepare to
grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after
all. - DNA

"Jim Price" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Danny Colyer said:

Jim Price said:

I read some advice which worked for me to establish whether my natural
foot position is toes in or toes out.

I'll add to that the advice I read prior to fitting my first set of
cleats, which worked for me. Sit on a table and let your feet dangle.
Look at the angle they dangle at relative to straight ahead. That's the
angle the pedals should hold them at when clipped in.

Substitute chest of drawers for table, and that's what I did.

Surely kitchen worksurface would be most suitable for URC feet?

cheers,
clive

Clive George said:

"Jim Price" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Danny Colyer said:

Jim Price wrote:
> I read some advice which worked for me to establish whether my
> natural foot position is toes in or toes out.

I'll add to that the advice I read prior to fitting my first set of
cleats, which worked for me. Sit on a table and let your feet
dangle. Look at the angle they dangle at relative to straight ahead.
That's the angle the pedals should hold them at when clipped in.

Substitute chest of drawers for table, and that's what I did.

Surely kitchen worksurface would be most suitable for URC feet?

Strangely, that wouldn't have worked very well at all in the tiny
kitchen I had at the time. The only work surface was overhung by
cupboards and probably not strong enough to support my weight. It was
rubbish for photography too, so I moved 🙂

JimP

--
Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable, let's prepare to
grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after
all. - DNA

Roger said:

I have read up on the issue and I know that this kind of problem may be
caused by inadequate float. Eggbeaters have no float adjustment, but
don't seem to need it. But I have also read that the problem may be
caused by incorrect bone arrangements. Allthougth clipless pedals offer
float, they float around normal feet positions and angles, if your feet
are unusual the pedal will be holding them in an unusual position. The
only cure is specially adapted shoes. This could well be my case as I
know my feet are not perfect, in fact I use instep inserts in my normal
shoes.

My leg-bones are twisted, meaning my feet are splayed outwards. My
physio once said I shouldn't ride a bike.

Quoted message said:

So now I am asking myself is it all worth it? I have not really noticed
any great gain from using the pedals. My previous pedaling style on
normal pedals was not to pump but to keep the pressure light and try as
spin as much as possible. With a good pedal/shoe combination I was able
to apply force right up to a vertical cranshaft and get a nearly
complete cycle. I can do bunny hops, but that is reaaly the only gain I
have found.

How much performance increase does one really get with clipless pedals,
or is one supposed to get? Perhaps I am not getting a performance
advantage **because** my feet are compromised?

I have found that properly set up clipless (specifically, I have Time
ATAC) cause less discomfort than clips and straps (even loose clips
and straps). For the specific problem I have, which is feet that
don't point straight:

Get a system that has plenty of completely free float. ATAC have no
resistance to angular float at all (until it reaches the point of
release). I tried SPD before I tried ATAC and the SPDs made my knees
worse in very short order. I attribute this to the degree of float.

Choose the shoe carefully, and get one that can be modified. Since I
spent yesterday looking for new shoes (tour of five bike shops), I can
report that for me this basically seems to boil down to mid-range
Shimano at the moment (and that there are none in stock in size 41 in
this bit of Surrey).

There are two critical features - the sole is a slab of grey plastic
with rubber stuck on the bottom, and the cleat attachment inside is a
simple fairly small plate.

Simple plastic slab for a sole means you can position the cleat as you
want it, and you can enlarge the slots in the sole easily.
Displacing the cleat often results in a clash between rubber and the
pedal surround or mechanics, which is why this style construction is
good because you can simply cut away the offending rubber with a sharp
scalpel.

Low-tech plate inside the shoe is important because it can be moved
inside the shoe to accomodate where you want the cleat. Sometimes
this requires a bit of knifework (actually, I normally use a
chisel the wrong-way-up - bevel against the material being kept
- to shave plastic away) inside the shoe too. A lot of shoes now seem
to be going for super-complex systems with adaptor plates and big
plates with multiple attachment points and so on. Specialized, for
example, seem to have a complex mechanism that can apparently
accomodate any and every cleat in existence, but can only take them
mounted straight fore-and-aft (possibly with a very very slight angle).

Of course, doing these things means any guarantee is void, but it also
means cycling without pain. Once you've got the arrangement right,
it's hard to imagine going back to any other pedal - I have ATAC on
evry cycle except the unicycle now.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

Jim Price said:

Two: There is one thing you have not mentioned which is adjustable on
most pedal systems - the position of the cleat on the shoe. This is
usually adjustable for fore/aft position and angle.

Give this man a beer!!!!

It was obvious, but I had not thought abot adjusting the cleats. The
shop fitted them and they were in the forwardmost position. Truth is
the shoes are a bit on the long side as my feet are wide so to get a
good fit I went one size up. I moved the cleats back and straight away
it felt better.

Today I did a 3 hour ride, all tracks and steep hills, and I feel half
dead in terms of leg aches, shoulders wrists and everything else that
aches after a long ride. But no knee pain or strange foot aches.

Thanks

Richard said:

Roger said:

What is a problem is that on longer rides my knees and feet ache in a
way that never used to happen before.

I've started using clipless for the first time this past month, and on
my first longer ride my right foot was aching like buggery after ten
miles or so. It felt as if I wanted to rotate my foot about a vertical
axis, just very slightly, so I adjusted the angle of the cleats a
smidgen. The pain went away immediately and stayed away.

R.

Adjusting the cleats did it for me as well.

Thanks everbody for the tips. As I notes in an earlier reply, the cleat
position was definetly the problem and I have cured the knee ache.

However, I think I will follow the other tips and go on to "fine tune"
the cleat position, adjusting for the angle as my feet do not hang
straight. I also jumped on a bike with ordinary pedals and looked at my
feet position as I pedalled, in fact it is not perfectly straight.

Roger said:

Thanks everbody for the tips. As I notes in an earlier reply, the cleat
position was definetly the problem and I have cured the knee ache.

However, I think I will follow the other tips and go on to "fine tune"
the cleat position, adjusting for the angle as my feet do not hang
straight. I also jumped on a bike with ordinary pedals and looked at my
feet position as I pedalled, in fact it is not perfectly straight.

IME teh best thing to do is to put the cleats on, and go for a ride,
letting your feet go to their preferred position and feeling whether
you are twisting in or out. Adjust cleats, repeat until bored.

I have just set up a new pair of shoes. Twist is fine, but I might try
the other set of mounting holes. Still not a fan uf multirelease
cleats.

...d

Quoted message said:

Still not a fan uf multirelease cleats.

Y not?

Mark Thompson said:

Quoted message said:

Still not a fan uf multirelease cleats.

Y not?

I find them less 'convincing' than single release ones. I find that
they are easy to mis-insert. It's not that I abhor them, it is just
that I prefer the singles (and I prefer look pedals over SPD, but can't
find any shoes that are walkable in with look cleats[1])

...d

[1] cue wafflycat claiming she has some from some odd market in the
middle of nowhere some place far removed from where those without a
willow tree can obtain them.

David Martin said:

I find them less 'convincing' than single release ones. I find that
they are easy to mis-insert. It's not that I abhor them, it is just
that I prefer the singles (and I prefer look pedals over SPD, but can't
find any shoes that are walkable in with look cleats)

Maybe try Time ATACs, which use the same shoe attachment as SPuDs but
they seem much more positive, have better float, are easier to clean and
there's none of that buggering about with tension adjustment.

I can lend you a set of pedals (I only use one set at a time!) and I
think we've a spare set of cleats about somewhere.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

David Martin said:

Still not a fan uf multirelease
cleats.

What's a multirelease cleat?

R.

Peter Clinch said:

David Martin said:

I find them less 'convincing' than single release ones. I find that
they are easy to mis-insert. It's not that I abhor them, it is just
that I prefer the singles (and I prefer look pedals over SPD, but can't
find any shoes that are walkable in with look cleats)

Maybe try Time ATACs, which use the same shoe attachment as SPuDs but
they seem much more positive, have better float, are easier to clean and
there's none of that buggering about with tension adjustment.

I can lend you a set of pedals (I only use one set at a time!) and I
think we've a spare set of cleats about somewhere.

It sounds tempting but would entail me spending more money I really
shouldn't after trying them. It owuld require changing 3 or 4 sets of
pedals in the long run.

...d