Pedal float and knee injury?

Woland99 said:

I was told that to avoid knee injury one should use pedals that allow
some float.
On the other hand I heard that Speedplay Frog pedals that have a lot
of float caused
knee injury in some people. So which one is correct?
I have Shimano M520 but I was thinking about changing to Crank
Brothers (Candy
for MTB and perhaps Quatro for road) - any opinions on those?

Float is a personal preference. Research points both ways.

Joseph

Woland99 said:

I was told that to avoid knee injury one should use pedals that allow
some float.
On the other hand I heard that Speedplay Frog pedals that have a lot
of float caused
knee injury in some people. So which one is correct?

Both.

The human body is complex and knee injuries can be caused by lot of
things.

On Feb 24, 5:30 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 01:28:23 -0800 (PST), Woland99

Quoted message said:

I was told that to avoid knee injury one should use pedals that allow
some float.
On the other hand I heard that Speedplay Frog pedals that have a lot
of float caused
knee injury in some people. So which one is correct?

Both.

The human body is complex and knee injuries can be caused by lot of
things.

Including spinning.

Pedals don't cause knee injuries. People cause knee injuries. --D-y

Someone said:

I was told that to avoid knee injury one should use pedals that
allow some float.

Don't believe everything you hear.

Quoted message said:

On the other hand I heard that Speedplay Frog pedals that have a lot
of float caused knee injury in some people. So which one is correct?
I have Shimano M520 but I was thinking about changing to Crank
Brothers (Candy for MTB and perhaps Quatro for road) - any opinions
on those?

That people have and get bad knees is indisputable, but cause and
effect are not well linked. Many overweight riders pedal with knees
out to the sides to avoid kicking their gut. This causes either
substantial foot rotation or knee twist. I suspect some of the
testimonials are from folks who pedal in that manner for one reason or
another.

On that note, we haven't had an ankling thread in quite awhile. That
was a main concept in leg motion of the past. After that came
spinning and spin coaches. Float has not been on the front burner
lately.

Jobst Brandt

Woland99 said:

I was told that to avoid knee injury one should use pedals that allow
some float.
On the other hand I heard that Speedplay Frog pedals that have a lot
of float caused
knee injury in some people. So which one is correct?
I have Shimano M520 but I was thinking about changing to Crank
Brothers (Candy
for MTB and perhaps Quatro for road) - any opinions on those?

best thing you can do is get into the habit of clipping out when your
knee is straight at the bottom of the pedal stroke. unclipping at the
top, as many do, uses a knee articulation which, while natural, it not
naturally loaded and thus leads to strains and pains for some.
unclipping at the bottom uses no knee artiulation, just hip rotation
which is a more robust accommodation.

Woland99 <[email hidden]> wrote in news:2cc1e580-b803-403c-9863-
[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I was told that to avoid knee injury one should use pedals that allow
some float.

To avoid injury, you should set up your cleats carefully and correctly.
Unless you have abnormal or previously damaged knees, float just masks bad
cleat installation.

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Woland99 said:

I was told that to avoid knee injury one should use pedals that allow
some float. On the other hand I heard that Speedplay Frog pedals that
have a lot of float caused knee injury in some people. So which one
is correct? I have Shimano M520 but I was thinking about changing to
Crank Brothers (Candy for MTB and perhaps Quatro for road) - any
opinions on those?

Bicycling is pretty knee friendly- after all, bicycling or bicycling-
type activities are the preferred form of exercise recommended to people
recovering from knee surgery. When I had arthroscopic surgery on my
knee for a torn meniscus (pretty sure that came from my martial arts
training years ago), my surgeon was delighted to hear I was a cyclist
and wanted me to resume riding in two weeks after the surgery. FWIW I
had never noticed problems with the meniscus until I had switched to 180
mm cranks, which seemed to have made the flex of my knee acute enough to
irritate the injury. At my height (6'4"😉, 180 mm cranks would be
proportional for me but they were too long due to a preexisting knee
problem.

IMHO bike fit is more important than what type of pedals you use.
Saddle height and fore-and-aft placement is one important parameter. "Q
factor" (the horizontal distance between the pedals) is another. I use
the saddle height method used by Cyrille Guimard (you can find it in
Greg Lemond's book or Bernard Hinault's book and probably for free out
on the internets too) and have done for years. Of course, once you know
your saddle height and setback that's a number that doesn't change. I
find my knees are happiest with a Q factor 140 mm- which means no
Shimano or Shimano clone cranks for me as those tend to have Q factors
of 150-160 mm. Campy cranks tend to be around 140 mm.

Finer grained adjustments such as shimming cleats to compensate for
leg-length discrepancies, pronation, etc. can be helpful although
primarily for people with existing knee problems.

Pedals that rigidly hold your feet in a suboptimal position can cause
problems, I think. I am pretty duck-footed and found that with SPD
pedals I developed patellar chondromalacia. Switching to Speedplay
pedals and narrower Q factor cranks resolved that (however, I did both
changes at the same time, so I really don't know which one was the main
contributor to the improvement). Many people ride thousands of miles a
year with tightly-holding pedals like SPD or Look and have no knee
problems. I rode Look pedals for a long time with no trouble (I had
them set up with a FitKit) and those had zero float.

I have ridden Speedplay pedals since 1994 and use Frogs on all my bikes
except one, which has old Campy pedals with PowerGrips so I can ride in
any shoes I happen to be wearing. My foot can move around quite readily
on those pedals.

Who knows, it may be simply whether you are suceptible to knee problems;
if not, it may not matter at all which pedals you use.

Per Tim McNamara:

Quoted message said:

Who knows, it may be simply whether you are suceptible to knee problems;
if not, it may not matter at all which pedals you use.

This is from somebody who know nothing, so maybe somebody with
some expertise can comment.

What about switching to flats for a few months and seeing if the
problem goes away?

My recollection is that once the insult stops, most orthopaedic
injuries go away on their own within some period (can't recall
how long...) less than a year.

Switch to flats.... pain goes away.... now you know something.
--
PeteCresswell

Tim McNamara said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Woland99 said:

I was told that to avoid knee injury one should use pedals that allow
some float. On the other hand I heard that Speedplay Frog pedals that
have a lot of float caused knee injury in some people. So which one
is correct? I have Shimano M520 but I was thinking about changing to
Crank Brothers (Candy for MTB and perhaps Quatro for road) - any
opinions on those?

Bicycling is pretty knee friendly- after all, bicycling or bicycling-
type activities are the preferred form of exercise recommended to people
recovering from knee surgery. When I had arthroscopic surgery on my
knee for a torn meniscus (pretty sure that came from my martial arts
training years ago), my surgeon was delighted to hear I was a cyclist
and wanted me to resume riding in two weeks after the surgery. FWIW I
had never noticed problems with the meniscus until I had switched to 180
mm cranks, which seemed to have made the flex of my knee acute enough to
irritate the injury. At my height (6'4"😉, 180 mm cranks would be
proportional for me but they were too long due to a preexisting knee
problem.

IMHO bike fit is more important than what type of pedals you use.
Saddle height and fore-and-aft placement is one important parameter. "Q
factor" (the horizontal distance between the pedals) is another. I use
the saddle height method used by Cyrille Guimard (you can find it in
Greg Lemond's book or Bernard Hinault's book and probably for free out
on the internets too) and have done for years. Of course, once you know
your saddle height and setback that's a number that doesn't change. I
find my knees are happiest with a Q factor 140 mm- which means no
Shimano or Shimano clone cranks for me as those tend to have Q factors
of 150-160 mm. Campy cranks tend to be around 140 mm.

Finer grained adjustments such as shimming cleats to compensate for
leg-length discrepancies, pronation, etc. can be helpful although
primarily for people with existing knee problems.

Pedals that rigidly hold your feet in a suboptimal position can cause
problems, I think. I am pretty duck-footed and found that with SPD
pedals I developed patellar chondromalacia. Switching to Speedplay
pedals and narrower Q factor cranks resolved that (however, I did both
changes at the same time, so I really don't know which one was the main
contributor to the improvement). Many people ride thousands of miles a
year with tightly-holding pedals like SPD or Look and have no knee
problems. I rode Look pedals for a long time with no trouble (I had
them set up with a FitKit) and those had zero float.

I have ridden Speedplay pedals since 1994 and use Frogs on all my bikes
except one, which has old Campy pedals with PowerGrips so I can ride in
any shoes I happen to be wearing. My foot can move around quite readily
on those pedals.

Who knows, it may be simply whether you are suceptible to knee problems;
if not, it may not matter at all which pedals you use.

Thank you and everybody else for good answer. I had bike fitted at
LBS couple weeks ago and it made tremendous difference. While doing
that they found that while my legs are same length my right thigh
is slightly longer. I usually have problem with left knee.
Both cleats are set the same but I sometimes have impression that
right one is in correct position and left one is slightly behind
the ball of the foot.
I do not think I would be able to decide on thing like Q-factor w/o
professional opinion. SPDs that I have do not feel restrictive - I
could not find float data on Shimano site but sbdy mentioned that
they have 14 degrees float. But pedal/foot/ankle/knee system have
many degrees of freedom and I guess there may be some subtle
mechanism that will magnify even small moments exerted on your foot
over thousands of repetitions into big problems.
As for pedaling with my knees outward - I never do that - despite
being heavy I do not have "kick in the gut" problem.
Today I tried very diligently stay in lower gear and just work on
my cadence and I finished the ride without any knee problem. So
perhaps it is just macho-itis - and I should avoiding forcing my
way up the hill - I have strong enough quads but not sturdy enough
knees for my weight. I guess I should just treat is as opportunity
learn to get fast and smooth cadence and weight patiently for my
weight to drop down (and connective tissue to develop - if that is
at all possible).

jim beam said:

Woland99 said:

I was told that to avoid knee injury one should use pedals that allow
some float.
On the other hand I heard that Speedplay Frog pedals that have a lot
of float caused
knee injury in some people. So which one is correct?
I have Shimano M520 but I was thinking about changing to Crank
Brothers (Candy
for MTB and perhaps Quatro for road) - any opinions on those?

best thing you can do is get into the habit of clipping out when your
knee is straight at the bottom of the pedal stroke. unclipping at the
top, as many do, uses a knee articulation which, while natural, it not
naturally loaded and thus leads to strains and pains for some.
unclipping at the bottom uses no knee artiulation, just hip rotation
which is a more robust accommodation.

Thanks - good suggestion - I do indeed unclip at the top - I will
to change that habit,.

aka Jobst Brandt said:

Someone said:

I was told that to avoid knee injury one should use pedals that
allow some float.

Don't believe everything you hear.

Quoted message said:

On the other hand I heard that Speedplay Frog pedals that have a lot
of float caused knee injury in some people. So which one is correct?
I have Shimano M520 but I was thinking about changing to Crank
Brothers (Candy for MTB and perhaps Quatro for road) - any opinions
on those?

That people have and get bad knees is indisputable, but cause and
effect are not well linked. Many overweight riders pedal with knees
out to the sides to avoid kicking their gut. This causes either
substantial foot rotation or knee twist. I suspect some of the
testimonials are from folks who pedal in that manner for one reason or
another.

I have found that cleat location/orientation is critical when riding
with Shimano SH51 and SH55 cleats, and that some trial and error is
involved when mounting cleats to new shoes. (On older shoes, the
indentations made over time by the serrations on the shoe side of the
cleat make lining up the new cleat quite simple.)

As always, YMMV.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

On 2008-02-25, Woland99 <[email hidden]> wrote:
[...]

Quoted message said:

As for pedaling with my knees outward - I never do that - despite
being heavy I do not have "kick in the gut" problem.
Today I tried very diligently stay in lower gear and just work on
my cadence and I finished the ride without any knee problem. So
perhaps it is just macho-itis - and I should avoiding forcing my
way up the hill - I have strong enough quads but not sturdy enough
knees for my weight. I guess I should just treat is as opportunity
learn to get fast and smooth cadence and weight patiently for my
weight to drop down (and connective tissue to develop - if that is
at all possible).

Another tip is don't push really hard when your knee is bent a lot at
the top of the stroke. When your leg's a bit straighter half way around
is a much better point at which to really give it some.

Woland99 said:

Tim McNamara said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Woland99 said:

I was told that to avoid knee injury one should use pedals that allow
some float. On the other hand I heard that Speedplay Frog pedals that
have a lot of float caused knee injury in some people. So which one
is correct? I have Shimano M520 but I was thinking about changing to
Crank Brothers (Candy for MTB and perhaps Quatro for road) - any
opinions on those?

Quoted message said:

Bicycling is pretty knee friendly- after all, bicycling or bicycling-
type activities are the preferred form of exercise recommended to people
recovering from knee surgery.  When I had arthroscopic surgery on my
knee for a torn meniscus (pretty sure that came from my martial arts
training years ago), my surgeon was delighted to hear I was a cyclist
and wanted me to resume riding in two weeks after the surgery. FWIW I
had never noticed problems with the meniscus until I had switched to 180
mm cranks, which seemed to have made the flex of my knee acute enough to
irritate the injury.  At my height (6'4"😉, 180 mm cranks would be
proportional for me but they were too long due to a preexisting knee
problem.

Quoted message said:

IMHO bike fit is more important than what type of pedals you use.
Saddle height and fore-and-aft placement is one important parameter.  "Q
factor" (the horizontal distance between the pedals) is another.  I use
the saddle height method used by Cyrille Guimard (you can find it in
Greg Lemond's book or Bernard Hinault's book and probably for free out
on the internets too) and have done for years.  Of course, once you know
your saddle height and setback that's a number that doesn't change.  I
find my knees are happiest with a Q factor 140 mm- which means no
Shimano or Shimano clone cranks for me as those tend to have Q factors
of 150-160 mm.  Campy cranks tend to be around 140 mm.

Quoted message said:

Finer grained adjustments such as shimming cleats to compensate for
leg-length discrepancies, pronation, etc. can be helpful although
primarily for people with existing knee problems.

Quoted message said:

Pedals that rigidly hold your feet in a suboptimal position can cause
problems, I think.  I am pretty duck-footed and found that with SPD
pedals I developed patellar chondromalacia.  Switching to Speedplay
pedals and narrower Q factor cranks resolved that (however, I did both
changes at the same time, so I really don't know which one was the main
contributor to the improvement).  Many people ride thousands of miles a
year with tightly-holding pedals like SPD or Look and have no knee
problems.  I rode Look pedals for a long time with no trouble (I had
them set up with a FitKit) and those had zero float.

Quoted message said:

I have ridden Speedplay pedals since 1994 and use Frogs on all my bikes
except one, which has old Campy pedals with PowerGrips so I can ride in
any shoes I happen to be wearing.  My foot can move around quite readily
on those pedals.

Quoted message said:

Who knows, it may be simply whether you are suceptible to knee problems;
if not, it may not matter at all which pedals you use.

Thank you and everybody else for good answer. I had bike fitted at
LBS couple weeks ago and it made tremendous difference. While doing
that they found that while my legs are same length my right thigh
is slightly longer. I usually have problem with left knee.
Both cleats are set the same but I sometimes have impression that
right one is in correct position and left one is slightly behind
the ball of the foot.
I do not think I would be able to decide on thing like Q-factor w/o
professional opinion. SPDs that I have do not feel restrictive - I
could not find float data on Shimano site but sbdy mentioned that
they have 14 degrees float. But pedal/foot/ankle/knee system have
many degrees of freedom and I guess there may be some subtle
mechanism that will magnify even small moments exerted on your foot
over thousands of repetitions into big problems.
As for pedaling with my knees outward - I never do that - despite
being heavy I do not have "kick in the gut" problem.
Today I tried very diligently stay in lower gear and just work on
my cadence and I finished the ride without any knee problem. So
perhaps it is just macho-itis - and I should avoiding forcing my
way up the hill - I have strong enough quads but not sturdy enough
knees for my weight. I guess I should just treat is as opportunity
learn to get fast and smooth cadence and weight patiently for my
weight to drop down (and connective tissue to develop - if that is
at all possible).

It's your connective tissues that need to catch up. Even though you
weigh a lot, as you get stronger you will be using even more force,
despite losing weight. The only difference is you will be faster!

My weight is down 20% from peak, and my power is up 50% from the same
period. That means 50% more force at the pedals at a given cadence.
Peak power and force is WAY more than 50% more too.

You will be the same. More time in the saddle will help. but it is
important to make sur eit is not painfull time. If it hurts, there is
something wrong, and trying to "ride throught it" will just cause
problems.

Joseph

On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 16:40:31 -0800 (PST) in rec.bicycles.tech,

Woland99 said:

Today I tried very diligently stay in lower gear and just work on
my cadence and I finished the ride without any knee problem.

gear down, spin up, cadence around 90 does it for me. my knees
do appreciate my speedplay frogs, though. i have very tight
tendons, and they allow a variety of knee angles that i
apparently need to use to avoid tendonitis. most comfortable
pedals i've ever had, though they do jam up & have trouble
releasing when you get mud or dog s**t in the cleats.

i bought the stainless version & they have lasted 4X the time the
ritchies & wellgos i used to use did, but i keep them well
greased. the next time i buy a pair, i'll probably try the
titanium version.

Woland99 said:

Thank you and everybody else for good answer. I had bike fitted at
LBS couple weeks ago and it made tremendous difference. While doing
that they found that while my legs are same length my right thigh
is slightly longer. I usually have problem with left knee.
Both cleats are set the same but I sometimes have impression that
right one is in correct position and left one is slightly behind
the ball of the foot.

Body (like everyone's to some degree) not symmetrical, cleats not
symmetrical either?

Fits and "advice" are fine but you have to figure out what works for
you. So, move the cleat to where you want it, after marking where it
was, and try it, with caution.

I can think of a couple of very good local riders off the top of my
head, where the pedaling doesn't look the same on both sides.

One guy uses floating cleat on one foot, fixed on the other. Races in
50+ age group, rides the distances. Whatever works <g>.

Quoted message said:

Today I tried very diligently stay in lower gear and just work on
my cadence and I finished the ride without any knee problem. So
perhaps it is just macho-itis - and I should avoiding forcing my
way up the hill - I have strong enough quads but not sturdy enough
knees for my weight. I guess I should just treat is as opportunity
learn to get fast and smooth cadence and weight patiently for my
weight to drop down (and connective tissue to develop - if that is
at all possible).

Possible <g>.

Lower gears are fine, smooth is fine. Extremes of spinning or slugging
can be negative.

I used to hurt my knees by trying to carry a gear over the top of
hills while seated-- diagnosis by process of elimination; forgot and
repeated (ignoring the orange light on the dashboard) the archival
experiment a couple of weeks ago with, fortunately, only a warning
signal from the old injury areas. So I've learned, for me, to pop it
up a gear or two (with my one-tooth jumps) and stand, carefully if
quickly, to do hills, at least in certain circumstances. Maybe all I'm
doing there is avoiding "going tight" but whatever, it sure seems to
work.

Accelerations (matching other riders, or self-induced) seem to put a
lot more strain on moving parts.

Some careful work in the gym, using "machines" (controlled movement
compared to free weights), leg extension, leg press, so forth can do a
lot to toughen up the tender parts-- knees, ankles, too. You might
check out some rehab info (suggested work for after knee surgery) if
this is foreign territory.

Do you ride with groups, or is this a solo project? --D-y

Tim McNamara said:

Pedals that rigidly hold your feet in a suboptimal position can cause
problems, I think.

OK for the premise, but I'm a bit confused by what you write
afterwards:

Quoted message said:

I am pretty duck-footed and found that with SPD
pedals I developed patellar chondromalacia.

Because they were too restrictive? The SPD pedals and cleats I use
(Shimano A520 + SH51) have +/- 3° of float (or 6° in total), compared
with the Look equipment you used:

[---]

Quoted message said:

I rode Look pedals for a long time with no trouble (I had
them set up with a FitKit) and those had zero float.

So was your patellar chondromalacia perhaps caused by something other
than insufficient float?

Andrew Price said:

Tim McNamara said:

Pedals that rigidly hold your feet in a suboptimal position can cause
problems, I think.

OK for the premise, but I'm a bit confused by what you write
afterwards:

Quoted message said:

I am pretty duck-footed and found that with SPD
pedals I developed patellar chondromalacia.

Because they were too restrictive? The SPD pedals and cleats I use
(Shimano A520 + SH51) have +/- 3° of float (or 6° in total), compared
with the Look equipment you used:

[---]

Quoted message said:

I rode Look pedals for a long time with no trouble (I had
them set up with a FitKit) and those had zero float.

So was your patellar chondromalacia perhaps caused by something other
than insufficient float?

I've had the same problems, my feet naturally toe-in. I can use
low-float cleats/pedals if I preset the angle. I prefer low-float, I
don't like the loose feel of high-float.

One thing I discovered was that I could get pretty sore knees, that took
quite a while to clear up from a single long ride on misadjusted cleats.
I had no soreness or even discomfort until pretty late into the ride.
I was surprised by how little the change in angle was to cause problems.

Another good idea for new-to-cleats riders is to begin with the cleats
mounted all the way back and adjust them forward as you get used to them.

Woland99 said:

I was told that to avoid knee injury one should use pedals that allow
some float.
On the other hand I heard that Speedplay Frog pedals that have a lot
of float caused
knee injury in some people. So which one is correct?
I have Shimano M520 but I was thinking about changing to Crank
Brothers (Candy
for MTB and perhaps Quatro for road) - any opinions on those?

I have had Shimano 520, 525, Wellgo, Ritchey, Cannondale, and VP
SPD-type pedals. The 525s and the Wellgo Road SPDs have been the best.
I have also used Look road pedals and Speedplay lollipops. The big
thing I personally have learned is that you need to make sure your
cleats are aligned for _your_ physiology.

I have found the Speedplays work great, just fabulously, for me. The
SPDs seem to rock a bit more as my feet try to move more than the cleat
wants to move. I also found that I have to shim out my right shoe by
about 1/8" to compensate for leg differences. I have badly curved feet
and my knees are trashed from years of soccer and running, running on
the outside of my foot.

Some sites will tell you to get low q-factor cranks. I did this for
years. I became much more comfortable when I switched to wider cranks.

I guess my main point is that you should try different things. If you
are injured, or asymmetrical, or bent, you may need something other than
the standard setup.

Regards,
Rob

Robert Perkins said:

[...]
I guess my main point is that you should try different things. If you
are injured, or asymmetrical, or bent, you may need something other than
the standard setup.

Foot retention is highly recommended for a 'bent, but the same clipless
systems developed for uprights are just fine.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful