Pavement cyclist

Colin Blackburn said:

As I walked into work today I walked behind a pavement cyclist. I'd
seen him coming up the hill, and it was a fairly steep hill for the
bike he was on. He still made fast enough progress that he didn't
inconvenience me at all despite a few wobbles.

He was, of course, only 5 years old and on his way to school. His mum
was walking behind him and she occasionally put a re-assuring (for
her!) hand on his back when he wobbled. His bike had one gear and
plastic platform pedals---it was raining fairly heavily---yet he went
up that hill faster than many of the adult cyclists I see. His feet
only came of the pedals once and that was when he hit the flat bit
after the hill. His mum then had to run to keep tabs on him he was
going that fast.

I wonder if they do child size polka dot jerseys?

Colin Blackburn said:

As I walked into work today I walked behind a pavement cyclist. I'd seen
him coming up the hill, and it was a fairly steep hill for the bike he
was on. He still made fast enough progress that he didn't inconvenience
me at all despite a few wobbles.

He was, of course, only 5 years old and on his way to school. His mum
was walking behind him and she occasionally put a re-assuring (for her!)
hand on his back when he wobbled. His bike had one gear and plastic
platform pedals---it was raining fairly heavily---yet he went up that
hill faster than many of the adult cyclists I see. His feet only came of
the pedals once and that was when he hit the flat bit after the hill.
His mum then had to run to keep tabs on him he was going that fast.

A few minutes later I passed another child, who by way of contrast had
just got out of a car and complained to his mum that he was getting wet!

Colin

Excellent! Now I think about it, I wonder at what point Pavement Cycling
becomes a Bad Thing? If we lived in a part of the world that had
pavements, we probably would have done the same with our kids.

I guess the next stage is to ride with them on the road as an escort,
and gradually wean them off any guidance until you are happy they can
manage the road for themselves. After that point, pavement cycling is a
no no.

That's pretty much what we did, but without the pavement bit.

--
Chris

Chris said:

Excellent! Now I think about it, I wonder at what point Pavement Cycling
becomes a Bad Thing? If we lived in a part of the world that had
pavements, we probably would have done the same with our kids.

When they get fed up with stopping at all the side roads. My 8yo
daughter cycles on the pavement on her own (or when I am walking), but
on the road when with me on a bike.

Quoted message said:

I guess the next stage is to ride with them on the road as an escort,
and gradually wean them off any guidance until you are happy they can
manage the road for themselves. After that point, pavement cycling is a
no no.

Yup. My opinion entirely (almost). There are cases where pavement
cycling though illegal can be useful, but it should be performed giving
courtesy and priority to all other legitimate pavement users.

...d

Dave said:

electric wheelchairs and the buggy type things that pensioners and
disabled people drive some of them like lunatics.

Yet another target of Daily Mail bigotry.

As someone else pointed out in a past thread, cyclists are rapidly
becoming an easy target for tabloid journalists, now that it is
unacceptable to criticise other segments of society.
Just imagine the article which Simon posted with the word 'cyclist'
replaced with 'black youth'. There would be a perfectly justifiable outcry.

And let's just think - are electric wheelchairs and buggies REALLY a
danger on the pavements? Or are you just listening too closely to the
sensationalist news reports?
And so what - some old dear clatters your ankle. Better that than a truck
hitting you when you cross the road.

John Hearns said:

Dave said:

electric wheelchairs and the buggy type things that pensioners and
disabled people drive some of them like lunatics.

[snip]

Quoted message said:

And let's just think - are electric wheelchairs and buggies REALLY a
danger on the pavements? Or are you just listening too closely to the
sensationalist news reports?
And so what - some old dear clatters your ankle. Better that than a truck
hitting you when you cross the road.

Locally the electric wheelchair users are polite, courteous and
use the pavements and cross the roads with care. The OAP-wagons are
however a menace. There's a lot of weight to them & if in one of their
random veerings they were to run into something expensive of yours
(such as your parked car) they'd be causing some very expensive damage.

I'm sure if people were to kick your ankles as you went about
your buisiness you'd take a very dim view of it- failure to courteuosly
and competantly handle powered vehicles on the pavement is a bad thing
too.

--
Tim.

[email hidden]

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 11:42:24 +0100 someone who may be John Hearns
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

And let's just think - are electric wheelchairs and buggies REALLY a
danger on the pavements?

Of course they are, all forms of transport involve danger.

The rather more important question is how dangerous are they? They
are certainly not as dangerous as motor vehicles, but on the other
hand there were eight deaths with the things last year (media
reports about three weeks ago, which did not indicate the
circumstances of these deaths).

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

John Hearns said:

And let's just think - are electric wheelchairs and buggies REALLY a
danger on the pavements? Or are you just listening too closely to the
sensationalist news reports?

Not of theselves, but some are driven in such a way as to be a menace.

There is one such in the town where I live - their standard method of
stopping seems to be to drive into street furniture (at least, I've
seen that occur several times, and the driver seemed to regard it as
normal), and they apparently have no qualms about driving into people
if they want to be the other side of somneone.

Quoted message said:

And so what - some old dear clatters your ankle. Better that than a truck
hitting you when you cross the road.

That's irrelevant. I have been hit by an electric buggy. It bloody
hurt and gouged a lump of flesh from my ankle. That it was better
than being hit by an HGV is irrelevant - it was worse than not being
hit by anything. Further, there are relatively few HGVs in the aisles
of my local Sainsbury.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

"John Hearns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dave said:

electric wheelchairs and the buggy type things that pensioners and
disabled people drive some of them like lunatics.

Yet another target of Daily Mail bigotry.

As someone else pointed out in a past thread, cyclists are rapidly
becoming an easy target for tabloid journalists, now that it is
unacceptable to criticise other segments of society.
Just imagine the article which Simon posted with the word 'cyclist'
replaced with 'black youth'. There would be a perfectly justifiable

outcry.

Quoted message said:

And let's just think - are electric wheelchairs and buggies REALLY a
danger on the pavements? Or are you just listening too closely to the
sensationalist news reports?
And so what - some old dear clatters your ankle. Better that than a truck
hitting you when you cross the road.

In answer to your question - it depends on the individual, as it does with
cyclists using the pavement.

What I was trying to get across was not to blame ANY one particular type of
user but to say if ALL users were curteous then there would be no problems.

And no I was not listening to tabloid jornalism - but my own observations,
and it may be slighlty less painless to get hit by a pensioner's buggy than
a car or wagon but there is no need for them or anyone else to travel at the
near maximum speed on the pavement especially when there are other users
both lone pedestians and people with prams/buggies with babies in them who
often get banged out of the way by someone trying to push past on an
electric buggy.

DaveB
West Yorks

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

And no I was not listening to tabloid jornalism - but my own observations,
and it may be slighlty less painless to get hit by a pensioner's buggy
than
a car or wagon but there is no need for them or anyone else to travel at
the
near maximum speed on the pavement especially when there are other users
both lone pedestians and people with prams/buggies with babies in them who
often get banged out of the way by someone trying to push past on an
electric buggy.

DaveB
West Yorks

One of the funniest things I've seen in a long time was OAP buggy rage. I
kid you not. Two of them, head-on, on a narrow section of footpath in
Dereham. One driven by an elderly lady, the other by an elderly gent. Was
either of them going to give way to each other or to any of the pedestrians
on the footpath? No, oh no... It was road-rage on the footpath. I squeezed
round them (as I was walking) an dlet them get on with it.

Cheers, helen s

As an aside I see Peugeot have chosen to ameliorate their 307
advertising poster with a pavement cyclist for no apparent reason. And
on the wrong side of the road as well.

John Hearns <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 11:02:17 +0100, Dave wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

electric wheelchairs and the buggy type things that pensioners and
disabled people drive some of them like lunatics.

Quoted message said:

Yet another target of Daily Mail bigotry.

Quoted message said:

As someone else pointed out in a past thread, cyclists are rapidly
becoming an easy target for tabloid journalists, now that it is
unacceptable to criticise other segments of society.
Just imagine the article which Simon posted with the word 'cyclist'
replaced with 'black youth'. There would be a perfectly justifiable outcry.

Quoted message said:

And let's just think - are electric wheelchairs and buggies REALLY a
danger on the pavements? Or are you just listening too closely to the
sensationalist news reports?
And so what - some old dear clatters your ankle. Better that than a truck
hitting you when you cross the road.

Until the electric buggy knocks a workman off his ladder...

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
Edgware.

MartinM said:

As an aside I see Peugeot have chosen to ameliorate their 307
advertising poster with a pavement cyclist for no apparent reason. And
on the wrong side of the road as well.

I saw that one this morning. They've also made the cyclist _extremely_ small
in comparison to the car!

wafflycat said:

One of the funniest things I've seen in a long time was OAP buggy rage. I
kid you not. Two of them, head-on, on a narrow section of footpath in
Dereham. One driven by an elderly lady, the other by an elderly gent. Was
either of them going to give way to each other or to any of the pedestrians
on the footpath? No, oh no... It was road-rage on the footpath. I squeezed
round them (as I was walking) an dlet them get on with it.

I twice this year saw old boys driving electric buggies up the wrong
side of the road against uncoming traffic despite a perfectly good
pavement. Oh well probably less of a hazard than driving their car up a
motorway the wrong way.

On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 11:00:21 +0100, "Dave" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Whilst reading something on a local authority road safety website I noticed
that they do not offer cycle training to under 10s as they consider that
they are too young to safely ride on the road and understand the dangers or
training.

The DfT advice is:
Level 1 training - Year 2 (age 7)
Level 2 training - Year 4 (age 9)
Level 3 training - Year 6 (age 11)

Level 1, Beginners and basic cycling skills - held off-road and
teaching children how to control, balance and manoeuvre;

Level 2, Introduction to on road cycling - held on quieter roads in
groups, children will learn where to position themselves when riding
on the road and how to observe traffic, signal, turn/manoeuvre safely
and basic Highway Code;

Level 3, Advanced cycling - held on busier roads to teach skills
required for making longer journeys and to develop strategies to deal
with all types of road conditions - e.g. roundabouts, traffic lights,
multi-lane roads.

Colin Blackburn said:

As I walked into work today I walked behind a pavement cyclist. I'd seen
him coming up the hill, and it was a fairly steep hill for the bike he
was on. He still made fast enough progress that he didn't inconvenience
me at all despite a few wobbles.

Yesterday's cycle training group (ten 10 year old children) included a
parent who hasn't been on a bike in 20 years and lacks the confidence
to cycle on the road.

I suggested that until she has completed the Level 2 course, she
practice cycling regularly by walking her bike to school with her
children and cycle home on the pavement.

Did I give the wrong advice?

Next week I have a parent who is a complete novice learning with two
children, also complete novices. What advice do I give for her to
practice?

Bertie Wiggins said:

Colin Blackburn said:

As I walked into work today I walked behind a pavement cyclist. I'd seen
him coming up the hill, and it was a fairly steep hill for the bike he
was on. He still made fast enough progress that he didn't inconvenience
me at all despite a few wobbles.

Yesterday's cycle training group (ten 10 year old children) included a
parent who hasn't been on a bike in 20 years and lacks the confidence
to cycle on the road.

I suggested that until she has completed the Level 2 course, she
practice cycling regularly by walking her bike to school with her
children and cycle home on the pavement.

Did I give the wrong advice?

I would never recommend a parent rides on the pavement.
It is not essential that a rider has completed level 2 before being able
to ride on the road.
I would be suggesting that they take further training, perhaps on a
one-to-one basis to gain the essential confidence. It doesn't take much
time for a rider to become accustomed to having other traffic around them.

Pavements are fraught with additional hazards such as blind junctions,
driveways, gates, and other people. If there was a collision with a car
pulling out of a drive, where would you stand as an instructor, having
advised something that was illegal?

In my training, I take children (and adults) to a section of pavement
and carry out a simple sightline exercise using a driveway - to show
just how little time and space they would have to react in, should a
vehicle emerge.
Earlier this year a parent contacted me because their child had had two
accidents, one of which put him in hospital. Both occurred by a car
legitimately pulling out across the pavement on which the youngster had
been told to ride by the parent. I took both of them to the site of one
crash, and ran through the sightline issue. Now he rides to school on
the road :-)

Quoted message said:

Next week I have a parent who is a complete novice learning with two
children, also complete novices. What advice do I give for her to
practice?

They should not ride on the road until you are happy they have completed
Level 1 and have judged that they have the skills to deal with on-road situations.
You could advise they go to a local park to practice.
Once they have commenced their Level 2 training you could then recommend
that they keep to quiet roads and avoid busy junctions until they have
acheived the necessary levels of confidence for busier roads.

You might like to post your instructor queries to the yahoo instructors group:
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/cycling_instructors/

John B
http://www.hampshirecycletraining.org.uk/

MartinM said:

I twice this year saw old boys driving electric buggies up the wrong
side of the road against uncoming traffic despite a perfectly good
pavement. Oh well probably less of a hazard than driving their car up a
motorway the wrong way.

I expect they find it difficult to get on and off of the pavement. They
probably ride on the wrong side of the road because they think of
themselves as assisted pedestrians, and of course a ped /should/ walk
facing the oncoming traffic if he's unable to use a pavement for
whatever reason.

--
Danny Colyer (my reply address is valid but checked infrequently)
<URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Danny Colyer said:

MartinM said:

I twice this year saw old boys driving electric buggies up the wrong
side of the road against uncoming traffic despite a perfectly good
pavement. Oh well probably less of a hazard than driving their car up a
motorway the wrong way.

I expect they find it difficult to get on and off of the pavement. They
probably ride on the wrong side of the road because they think of
themselves as assisted pedestrians, and of course a ped /should/ walk
facing the oncoming traffic if he's unable to use a pavement for
whatever reason.

I've come across child cyclists who have been told to do this by their parents.
Frightening.

John B

Danny Colyer said:

MartinM said:

I twice this year saw old boys driving electric buggies up the wrong
side of the road against uncoming traffic despite a perfectly good
pavement. Oh well probably less of a hazard than driving their car up a
motorway the wrong way.

I expect they find it difficult to get on and off of the pavement.

one was along Eastbourne seafront; you would have a job finding a more
pavement transition friendly town in the UK, I think it was more to do
with not having to share the footpath with all the post airshow crowds;
I did have to look away a few times as coaches passed.

They

Quoted message said:

probably ride on the wrong side of the road because they think of
themselves as assisted peds, and of course a ped /should/ walk
facing the oncoming traffic

Yes this is what I was taught being brung up in an area of no footpaths
on many roads. we were having a similar conversation with LSMike about
skaters in London; apparently skating on the public highway is
perfectly legal as you are classed as a ped.