Pavel vs. HIT

Renegade5 said:

I've been reading some of Pavel Tsatsoline's works (Power To The
People, Naked Warrior, etc.) and like a lot of what he has to say.
I've found that using a 'superslow' type protocol with high tension,
low reps is the way to go...

So what's your height, weight, bf% and best lifts?

--
Scott Johnson / [email hidden]

(Renegade5) said:

I've been reading some of Pavel Tsatsoline's works (Power To The
People, Naked Warrior, etc.) and like a lot of what he has to say.
I've found that using a 'superslow' type protocol with high tension,
low reps is the way to go... but wonder what the people here think
about some of his more non-convential recommendations:

- Pavel says not to work to failure (some others say it essential to
reach failure)

I personally prefer high intensity low volume workouts (1 - 2 sets
8-12 reps per set, each set to failure). However, when I get *stuck*
I have found that switching to a higher volume, lighter weight style
workout will often get me unstuck. If you haven't experimented with
switching off between high intensity and high volume workouts I would
recommend that you give it a whirl.

At the very least give Pavel's "greasing the groove" technique for
raising your chin-up levels a whirl. It's easy, fun, and it works.

Quoted message said:

- Pavel says it's OK to rest between reps, and to 'lock out' (some
others say you should avoid locking out and to keep keep the weight
supported by the muscles)

Pavel is basically the poster-boy for the high volume camp. The whole
idea behind his workouts is to get in as many reps as possible without
going to failure.

Quoted message said:

- Pavel advocates a routine of basically 2 exercises (deadlift, and
presses in PTTP, and one-legged squats and push-ups in Naked
Warriror)

It's hard to be deadlifts.

Quoted message said:

- Pavel says it's OK to exercise the same muscle group 4-5 times per
week (I may have mis-understood this part) rather than every other
day

If you aren't going to failure with each set your muscles can take the
stimulus.

Quoted message said:

- It seems like Pavel is saying that muscle'' can't 'grow' (if
ref. to the bicep... that it can only retain a higher amount of
tension when resting, making it look larger). I think I must have
mis-read that (will have to re-read)

Don't know about this...

Quoted message said:

- Pavel says machines are the 'wussies way out'. It seems like he's
referring to 'straight line' type machines though... as opposed to
'cable' machines which allow a wide range of motion and recruitment
of other muscles.

No, I think that Pavel just really likes iron. He's extremely old
school. Heck, the guy is nearly single-handedly responsible for the
return of kettle bells. That's about as old school as it gets.
Americans haven't lifted those things since the 1800s.

Jason

Jason Earl <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

(Renegade5) said:

I've been reading some of Pavel Tsatsoline's works (Power To The
People, Naked Warrior, etc.) and like a lot of what he has to say.
I've found that using a 'superslow' type protocol with high tension,
low reps is the way to go... but wonder what the people here think
about some of his more non-convential recommendations:

- Pavel says not to work to failure (some others say it essential to
reach failure)

I personally prefer high intensity low volume workouts (1 - 2 sets
8-12 reps per set, each set to failure). However, when I get *stuck*
I have found that switching to a higher volume, lighter weight style
workout will often get me unstuck. If you haven't experimented with
switching off between high intensity and high volume workouts I would
recommend that you give it a whirl.

Pavel's right on this one. He's right on most things, actually, if you
share his goals.

Quoted message said:

At the very least give Pavel's "greasing the groove" technique for
raising your chin-up levels a whirl. It's easy, fun, and it works.

Quoted message said:

- Pavel says it's OK to rest between reps, and to 'lock out' (some
others say you should avoid locking out and to keep keep the weight
supported by the muscles)

Pavel is basically the poster-boy for the high volume camp. The whole
idea behind his workouts is to get in as many reps as possible without
going to failure.

High volume? No way. Pavel's low-volume, high-intensity (PTTP, anyway--
haven't read NW). Look at Sheiko if you want to know what high-volume
looks like.

It's true that Pavel allows more workouts in a week. That's because he
cares about strength, not size, and he never goes to failure.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- Pavel advocates a routine of basically 2 exercises (deadlift, and
presses in PTTP, and one-legged squats and push-ups in Naked
Warriror)

It's hard to be deadlifts.

Quoted message said:

- Pavel says it's OK to exercise the same muscle group 4-5 times per
week (I may have mis-understood this part) rather than every other
day

If you aren't going to failure with each set your muscles can take the
stimulus.

Quoted message said:

- It seems like Pavel is saying that muscle'' can't 'grow' (if
ref. to the bicep... that it can only retain a higher amount of
tension when resting, making it look larger). I think I must have
mis-read that (will have to re-read)

Don't know about this...

Quoted message said:

- Pavel says machines are the 'wussies way out'. It seems like he's
referring to 'straight line' type machines though... as opposed to
'cable' machines which allow a wide range of motion and recruitment
of other muscles.

No, I think that Pavel just really likes iron. He's extremely old
school. Heck, the guy is nearly single-handedly responsible for the
return of kettle bells. That's about as old school as it gets.
Americans haven't lifted those things since the 1800s.

He cares about functional strength. Machines aren't so good for that.

Hugh

--
Run like hell and let the clowns deal with the bull.

"Renegade5" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've been reading some of Pavel Tsatsoline's works (Power To The
People, Naked Warrior, etc.) and like a lot of what he has to say.
I've found that using a 'superslow' type protocol with high tension,
low reps is the way to go... but wonder what the people here think
about some of his more non-convential recommendations:

I haven't found Pavel to issue a blanket recommendation for anything.
If you share his likes and his goals, then following what he likes may
be of use to you, and he clearly prefers strength training over
hypertrophy training.

Quoted message said:

- Pavel says not to work to failure
(some others say it essential to reach failure)

No. Pavel prefers strength training to muscle size building. (Not that
the two are necessarily mutually exclusive, but since we're talking in
vague generalities here ... ) If building muscle size is your goal,
working to failure can have a place in your training, and you will find
a few spots in Pavel's books where he even suggests it, e.g., to build
up the ab muscles in his book Bullet Proof Abs. But there are lots of
ways to get bigger and stronger without working to failure, and Pavel's
not the only one to make this point, and yes, he doesn't believe it's
the right thing to do most of the time, regardless of one's goals.

Quoted message said:

- Pavel says it's OK to rest between reps, and to 'lock out'
(some others say you should avoid locking out and to keep keep the
weight supported by the muscles)

How much rest you take depends on your goals, e.g., for me and my goals,
I rest long enough when deadlifting that the distinction between reps
and sets is often blurry.

Locking out - yes, he says it's good, but you have to listen to his
whole point of view on the subject - locking out the joints is good, but
relaxing the muscles at lockout generally is not. This isn't an
either/or proposition. A good example is at the bottom of a chinup or
pullup - full extension, yes, but relaxing the shoulders, no. Same
thing for the top of a deadlift - lockout the knees, yes, but don't
relax anything more than necessary to catch a breath. The exception to
the rule is when endurance is involved - whenever you have to perform an
activity many times, you have to learn to relax as much as possible in
the right places.

Quoted message said:

- Pavel advocates a routine of basically 2 exercises (deadlift, and
presses in PTTP, and one-legged squats and push-ups in Naked Warriror)

No. Pavel advocates you train appropriately for your goals. Since he
likes strength training and also like simplicity, focusing on only a few
exercises works well for him. He is also trying to reach a broad
audience including people who are intimidated or otherwise put off by
complex training programs and are looking for something simple. His
two-lift programs are not designed to help experienced powerlifters win
meets, but his books aren't only about programs, sets, rests, and
exercise selection - they contain lots of good things that can help
almost any lifter who doesn't know them already.

Quoted message said:

- Pavel says it's OK to exercise the same muscle group 4-5 times per
week (I may have mis-understood this part) rather than every other day

Again it depends on what your goals are. The man has suggested many,
many programs, some of which include lifting every day, but not all of
them do. Do the same lifts every day is a great way to increase
strength and discourage hypertrophy.

Quoted message said:

- It seems like Pavel is saying that muscle'' can't 'grow' (if ref. to
the bicep... that it can only retain a higher amount of tension when
resting, making it look larger). I think I must have mis-read that
(will have to re-read)

Please do reread. Many kinds of muscle growth are possible, and the
Bear program in PTP is but one that encourages muscle size growth _and_
increases in strength.

Quoted message said:

- Pavel says machines are the 'wussies way out'. It seems like he's
referring to 'straight line' type machines though... as opposed to
'cable' machines which allow a wide range of motion and recruitment of
other muscles.

Generally, yes, although he's got a few pictures of people using cables
in his latest book, Beyond BodyBuilding, and he recommends them for some
things.

Quoted message said:

Thanks for your thoughts!

Yah.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Renegade5 said:

- Pavel says not to work to failure
(some others say it essential to reach failure)

It's not essential to work to failure. Whether or not you want to go to
failure depends on many factors, but is not necessary.

Quoted message said:

- Pavel says it's OK to rest between reps, and to 'lock out'
(some others say you should avoid locking out and to keep keep the
weight supported by the muscles)

Either way is fine--so long as you're protective of your joints,
etc--and what you want to do mostly depends on whether your priority is
hypertrophy/endurance as opposed to strength/skill development.

Quoted message said:

- Pavel advocates a routine of basically 2 exercises (deadlift, and
presses in PTTP, and one-legged squats and push-ups in Naked Warriror)

That can work, but it's unnecessary/non-optimal IMO to be so minimalistic.

Quoted message said:

- Pavel says it's OK to exercise the same muscle group 4-5 times per
week (I may have mis-understood this part) rather than every other day

Yeah, but it depends what you do in those sessions.

-Adam

Steve Freides said:

"Renegade5" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've been reading some of Pavel Tsatsoline's works (Power To The
People, Naked Warrior, etc.) and like a lot of what he has to say.
I've found that using a 'superslow' type protocol with high

tension,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

low reps is the way to go... but wonder what the people here think
about some of his more non-convential recommendations:

I haven't found Pavel to issue a blanket recommendation for anything.

Quoted message said:

If you share his likes and his goals, then following what he likes

may

Quoted message said:

be of use to you, and he clearly prefers strength training over
hypertrophy training.

Quoted message said:

- Pavel says not to work to failure
(some others say it essential to reach failure)

No. Pavel prefers strength training to muscle size building. (Not

that

Quoted message said:

the two are necessarily mutually exclusive, but since we're talking

in

Quoted message said:

vague generalities here ... ) If building muscle size is your goal,
working to failure can have a place in your training, and you will

find

Quoted message said:

a few spots in Pavel's books where he even suggests it, e.g., to

build

Quoted message said:

up the ab muscles in his book Bullet Proof Abs. But there are lots

of

Quoted message said:

ways to get bigger and stronger without working to failure, and

Pavel's

Quoted message said:

not the only one to make this point, and yes, he doesn't believe it's

Quoted message said:

the right thing to do most of the time, regardless of one's goals.

Quoted message said:

- Pavel says it's OK to rest between reps, and to 'lock out'
(some others say you should avoid locking out and to keep keep the
weight supported by the muscles)

How much rest you take depends on your goals, e.g., for me and my

goals,

Quoted message said:

I rest long enough when deadlifting that the distinction between reps

Quoted message said:

and sets is often blurry.

Locking out - yes, he says it's good, but you have to listen to his
whole point of view on the subject - locking out the joints is good,

but

Quoted message said:

relaxing the muscles at lockout generally is not. This isn't an
either/or proposition. A good example is at the bottom of a chinup

or

Quoted message said:

pullup - full extension, yes, but relaxing the shoulders, no. Same
thing for the top of a deadlift - lockout the knees, yes, but don't
relax anything more than necessary to catch a breath. The exception

to

Quoted message said:

the rule is when endurance is involved - whenever you have to perform

an

Quoted message said:

activity many times, you have to learn to relax as much as possible

in

Quoted message said:

the right places.

Quoted message said:

- Pavel advocates a routine of basically 2 exercises (deadlift, and
presses in PTTP, and one-legged squats and push-ups in Naked

Warriror)

Quoted message said:

No. Pavel advocates you train appropriately for your goals. Since

he

Quoted message said:

likes strength training and also like simplicity, focusing on only a

few

Quoted message said:

exercises works well for him. He is also trying to reach a broad
audience including people who are intimidated or otherwise put off by

Quoted message said:

complex training programs and are looking for something simple. His
two-lift programs are not designed to help experienced powerlifters

win

Quoted message said:

meets, but his books aren't only about programs, sets, rests, and
exercise selection - they contain lots of good things that can help
almost any lifter who doesn't know them already.

Quoted message said:

- Pavel says it's OK to exercise the same muscle group 4-5 times

per

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

week (I may have mis-understood this part) rather than every other

day

Quoted message said:

Again it depends on what your goals are. The man has suggested many,

Quoted message said:

many programs, some of which include lifting every day, but not all

of

Quoted message said:

them do. Do the same lifts every day is a great way to increase
strength and discourage hypertrophy.

Quoted message said:

- It seems like Pavel is saying that muscle'' can't 'grow' (if ref.

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the bicep... that it can only retain a higher amount of tension

when

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

resting, making it look larger). I think I must have mis-read that
(will have to re-read)

Please do reread. Many kinds of muscle growth are possible, and the
Bear program in PTP is but one that encourages muscle size growth

_and_

Quoted message said:

increases in strength.

Quoted message said:

- Pavel says machines are the 'wussies way out'. It seems like

he's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

referring to 'straight line' type machines though... as opposed to
'cable' machines which allow a wide range of motion and recruitment

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

other muscles.

Generally, yes, although he's got a few pictures of people using

cables

Quoted message said:

in his latest book, Beyond BodyBuilding, and he recommends them for

some

Quoted message said:

things.

Quoted message said:

Thanks for your thoughts!

Yah.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Curious Steve - what's Pavel's opinion of the quick lifts? Is he
willing to trade some tension for speed (and I some guess
limit-strength development for speed-strength development)?

"Keith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve Freides said:

"Renegade5" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've been reading some of Pavel Tsatsoline's works (Power To The
People, Naked Warrior, etc.) and like a lot of what he has to say.
I've found that using a 'superslow' type protocol with high

tension,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

low reps is the way to go... but wonder what the people here think
about some of his more non-convential recommendations:

I haven't found Pavel to issue a blanket recommendation for anything.

Quoted message said:

If you share his likes and his goals, then following what he likes

may

Quoted message said:

be of use to you, and he clearly prefers strength training over
hypertrophy training.

Quoted message said:

- Pavel says not to work to failure
(some others say it essential to reach failure)

No. Pavel prefers strength training to muscle size building. (Not

that

Quoted message said:

the two are necessarily mutually exclusive, but since we're talking

in

Quoted message said:

vague generalities here ... ) If building muscle size is your goal,
working to failure can have a place in your training, and you will

find

Quoted message said:

a few spots in Pavel's books where he even suggests it, e.g., to

build

Quoted message said:

up the ab muscles in his book Bullet Proof Abs. But there are lots

of

Quoted message said:

ways to get bigger and stronger without working to failure, and

Pavel's

Quoted message said:

not the only one to make this point, and yes, he doesn't believe it's

Quoted message said:

the right thing to do most of the time, regardless of one's goals.

Quoted message said:

- Pavel says it's OK to rest between reps, and to 'lock out'
(some others say you should avoid locking out and to keep keep the
weight supported by the muscles)

How much rest you take depends on your goals, e.g., for me and my

goals,

Quoted message said:

I rest long enough when deadlifting that the distinction between reps

Quoted message said:

and sets is often blurry.

Locking out - yes, he says it's good, but you have to listen to his
whole point of view on the subject - locking out the joints is good,

but

Quoted message said:

relaxing the muscles at lockout generally is not. This isn't an
either/or proposition. A good example is at the bottom of a chinup

or

Quoted message said:

pullup - full extension, yes, but relaxing the shoulders, no. Same
thing for the top of a deadlift - lockout the knees, yes, but don't
relax anything more than necessary to catch a breath. The exception

to

Quoted message said:

the rule is when endurance is involved - whenever you have to perform

an

Quoted message said:

activity many times, you have to learn to relax as much as possible

in

Quoted message said:

the right places.

Quoted message said:

- Pavel advocates a routine of basically 2 exercises (deadlift, and
presses in PTTP, and one-legged squats and push-ups in Naked

Warriror)

Quoted message said:

No. Pavel advocates you train appropriately for your goals. Since

he

Quoted message said:

likes strength training and also like simplicity, focusing on only a

few

Quoted message said:

exercises works well for him. He is also trying to reach a broad
audience including people who are intimidated or otherwise put off by

Quoted message said:

complex training programs and are looking for something simple. His
two-lift programs are not designed to help experienced powerlifters

win

Quoted message said:

meets, but his books aren't only about programs, sets, rests, and
exercise selection - they contain lots of good things that can help
almost any lifter who doesn't know them already.

Quoted message said:

- Pavel says it's OK to exercise the same muscle group 4-5 times

per

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

week (I may have mis-understood this part) rather than every other

day

Quoted message said:

Again it depends on what your goals are. The man has suggested many,

Quoted message said:

many programs, some of which include lifting every day, but not all

of

Quoted message said:

them do. Do the same lifts every day is a great way to increase
strength and discourage hypertrophy.

Quoted message said:

- It seems like Pavel is saying that muscle'' can't 'grow' (if ref.

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the bicep... that it can only retain a higher amount of tension

when

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

resting, making it look larger). I think I must have mis-read that
(will have to re-read)

Please do reread. Many kinds of muscle growth are possible, and the
Bear program in PTP is but one that encourages muscle size growth

_and_

Quoted message said:

increases in strength.

Quoted message said:

- Pavel says machines are the 'wussies way out'. It seems like

he's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

referring to 'straight line' type machines though... as opposed to
'cable' machines which allow a wide range of motion and recruitment

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

other muscles.

Generally, yes, although he's got a few pictures of people using

cables

Quoted message said:

in his latest book, Beyond BodyBuilding, and he recommends them for

some

Quoted message said:

things.

Quoted message said:

Thanks for your thoughts!

Yah.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Curious Steve - what's Pavel's opinion of the quick lifts? Is he
willing to trade some tension for speed (and I some guess
limit-strength development for speed-strength development)?

Please visit http://forum.dragondoor.com and ask him yourself. If you
address a question specifically to him, if he's around, he'll usually
answer it. He, me, and most other people would all probably start by
asking you, "What are your goals?" "Quick lift" training can help limit
strength as well as hinder it - the devil is in the details.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Scott Johnson said:

Renegade5 said:

I've been reading some of Pavel Tsatsoline's works (Power To The
People, Naked Warrior, etc.) and like a lot of what he has to say.
I've found that using a 'superslow' type protocol with high tension,
low reps is the way to go...

So what's your height, weight, bf% and best lifts?

I'm 5'10, 180lbs.

I'm afraid I don't know bf% or have best lifts (I'm not a 'serious'
lifter - I just exercise for general fitness and health 2-3 times a
week x 30 min). My bicep is 14.5". I haven't measured my waist or
chest for quite a while (I just happend to measure the bi 'cause I was
reading an article on the 'average size' and was curious).

Because I want to get down to 175lbs, I'll be going back to my
'circuit' routine, which is an all-dumbell, full-body home workout:

- clean and press
- military press
- one-arm bent-over rows
- bench press
- squats
- curls
- crunches

With weighted step-ups done between each exercise

I supplement with hindu push-ups and hindu squats when time allows

I use 'powerblocks' (nesting dumbells) which only go up to 50lbs each,
so I usually do 'slow' lifts to fatigue.

Renegade5 said:

Scott Johnson said:

Renegade5 said:

I've been reading some of Pavel Tsatsoline's works (Power To The
People, Naked Warrior, etc.) and like a lot of what he has to say.
I've found that using a 'superslow' type protocol with high tension,
low reps is the way to go...

So what's your height, weight, bf% and best lifts?

I'm 5'10, 180lbs.

I'm afraid I don't know bf% or have best lifts (I'm not a 'serious'
lifter - I just exercise for general fitness and health 2-3 times a
week x 30 min). My bicep is 14.5". I haven't measured my waist or
chest for quite a while (I just happend to measure the bi 'cause I was
reading an article on the 'average size' and was curious).

Because I want to get down to 175lbs, I'll be going back to my
'circuit' routine, which is an all-dumbell, full-body home workout:

- clean and press
- military press
- one-arm bent-over rows
- bench press
- squats
- curls
- crunches

With weighted step-ups done between each exercise

I supplement with hindu push-ups and hindu squats when time allows

I use 'powerblocks' (nesting dumbells) which only go up to 50lbs each,
so I usually do 'slow' lifts to fatigue.

How do you do a "slow" clean? By it's very nature
it's an explosive movement.

The point I'm trying to make is: no one ever set a
lifting record using a "superslow" technique ($1
to Keith). If you want to get strong and fit you
need to maximise the amount you can lift, which
means lifting as explosively as possible, whether
it's 50lbs or 500.

The routine you described is actually excellent
for fat loss, but divergent from the goals of
strength and hypertrophy.

When you reach your weight goal, switch over to a
Pavelish routine for while, just so you can get a
feel for something different.

--
Scott Johnson / scottjohnson at kc dot rr dot com

In article <[email hidden]>, Scott Johnson

Quoted message said:

Renegade5 said:

Scott Johnson said:

Renegade5 wrote:

>I've been reading some of Pavel Tsatsoline's works (Power To The
>People, Naked Warrior, etc.) and like a lot of what he has to say.
>I've found that using a 'superslow' type protocol with high tension,
>low reps is the way to go...

So what's your height, weight, bf% and best lifts?

I'm 5'10, 180lbs.

I'm afraid I don't know bf% or have best lifts (I'm not a 'serious'
lifter - I just exercise for general fitness and health 2-3 times a
week x 30 min).

Not to disparage Renegade5 goals at all, but general fitness for what?

If you are about athletics, than general fitness or the now popular term
General Physical Preparation (GPP) has different elements. And basically
you are looking at three physical characteristics - strength, speed and
endurance - in some combination. These three elements always impact on one
another.

Superslow is really all about endurance. Both strength and speed have
requirements to create force and force = mass x accelleration. To create
high levels of force (or power, or speed/strength which is a hugely
important physical characteristic for sport) you have to accellerate. If
the mass is constant (as in a sprinter moving his/her own body, etc.) than
the only way to increase force is greater accelleration.

So superslow, in terms of sports, may be good for sports where there is a
requirement to maintain tension for a long time, but how often do you see
this in sport? How about in life? I don't see it. Even if I want to work
on endurance I far prefer the hindu squat / hindu push-up routine because
that is more like I see endurance being displayed - through relatively
rapid movement - in sport and in life.

In terms of specificity and especially speed on contractions superslow is
really only improving specific fitness for mimes. In terms of general
fitness I think it is also a poor protocol because it only addresses one
area of physical conditioning.

Hobbes said:

So superslow, in terms of sports, may be good for sports where there is a
requirement to maintain tension for a long time, but how often do you see
this in sport? How about in life?

Not terribly often.

Tug-of-war, arm wrestling, clinch....

In article said:

Hobbes said:

So superslow, in terms of sports, may be good for sports where there is a
requirement to maintain tension for a long time, but how often do you see
this in sport? How about in life?

Not terribly often.

Tug-of-war, arm wrestling, clinch....

I would argue with those as well.

Tug of war is really all about weight and friction. Put another way - you
could have a guy who weighs 100 kgs and has great endurance and the 140 kg
will win every time.

Arm wrestling is about rate of force development. If you can generate
force quicker than your opponent you bring his hand closer to your center
of mass and have a huge leverage advantage.

Clinch - same idea. Body position is huge and you gain body position
through rate of force development. If you can develop force quickly the
advantage you gain in leverage is often greater than the fact you may not
be able to generate force for as long a period.

Of course technique is huge there as well. Good technique and body
position and the other person is expending huge amounts of energy compared
to you. End result - you appear to have greater endurance.

Quoted message said:

Hobbes said:

So superslow, in terms of sports, may be good for sports where there is a
requirement to maintain tension for a long time, but how often do you see
this in sport? How about in life?

Exactly.

We are seeing more and more of various fitness "concepts" that have nothing
to do with real life or physical function. Superslow was developed
specifically for elderly, weak and sick people. Now it is being applied to
everything that moves. With supposed benefits that surpass any con man's
promises.

As for a real world activity that takes advantage of superslow's
conditioning, I always say that the waitstaff at a couple of restuarants I
have been at could use it. It is the only real world place I have seen that
people move that slow. 🙁

elzinator said:

Your comments suggest that the trainee is required to think, Adam. I'm
not sure if Pavel allows that. 🙂

I think that's in his latest book/MLM scheme.

-Adam ("We're all individuals!"😉

Renegade5 said:

I've been reading some of Pavel Tsatsoline's works (Power To The
People, Naked Warrior, etc.) and like a lot of what he has to say.
I've found that using a 'superslow' type protocol with high tension,
low reps is the way to go... but wonder what the people here think
about some of his more non-convential recommendations:

it is not unconventional. he is more concerned with strength than
mass(look at him, he uses his look as an advertisement).
most pages online are more concerned with mass (getting big).

do aome googling get an idea on
Exercising for endurance, strength and mass. For each of those look for
info on how many reps, sets, rest between sets, rest between reps.

For exercising for strength. Steve Freides is an expert in strength
training without mass.

training for mass is all over the web.

Lyle McDonald(a bit technical), Steve Freides, Watson Davies, Keith
Hudson, - sorry for any names missed - but those are some great
contributors, and there wisdom is archived.

Regarding super sloww movements, I asked Watson about the benefit of
it - I was interested in pure strength so < 5 reps. He wrote something
alon the lines of - doing it slowly on the +ve portion of the rep isn't
beneficial, what's important is that the weight is heavy enough that
you're trying hard to lift it, and it's moving up slowly cos of its
heavyness, you're pulling it up as hard as you can, if you can o it
fast it's prob too light. it should go up slowly not 'cos you're mobing
it slowly intentionally.

- Pavel says not to work to failure

Quoted message said:

(some others say it essential to reach failure)

my understandig is
for strength, no.
for mass, sometimes.

key is to vary intensity. failure is super high intensity.

Quoted message said:

- Pavel says it's OK to rest between reps, and to 'lock out'
(some others say you should avoid locking out and to keep keep the
weight supported by the muscles)

strength=long rest between sets
mass=short rest between sets

strength=longer rest between reps
mass=shorter rest between reps

Quoted message said:

- Pavel advocates a routine of basically 2 exercises (deadlift, and
presses in PTTP, and one-legged squats and push-ups in Naked

Warriror)

strength is like that.
bodybuilders tend to be the ones that go for mass. they exercise every
muscle under the sun - just for the look(good pun eh).

Quoted message said:

- Pavel says it's OK to exercise the same muscle group 4-5 times per
week (I may have mis-understood this part) rather than every other

day

strength=longer rests, no failure. so i'm sure every other day is ok.

mass prob takes its tole on the body, hence every other day.

Quoted message said:

- It seems like Pavel is saying that muscle'' can't 'grow' (if ref.

to

Quoted message said:

the bicep... that it can only retain a higher amount of tension when
resting, making it look larger). I think I must have mis-read that
(will have to re-read)

muscles can grow(hypertrophy) and you can get strobger without
growth, - brain recruits more fibres, or recruits more efficiently.
look at steve.

Quoted message said:

- Pavel says machines are the 'wussies way out'. It seems like he's
referring to 'straight line' type machines though... as opposed to
'cable' machines which allow a wide range of motion and recruitment

of

Quoted message said:

other muscles.

yeah, i think steve confirmed that in a post in this thread.
either way. There is a concensus that machines are bad, except cables
which have somee advantages. Your phrase 'straight line machines' is
probably spot on. You get a better *form* with free weights.

Quoted message said:

Thanks for your thoughts!

Thank you for your question. These get archived and help ppl for
eternity.
np

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

For exercising for strength. Steve Freides is an expert in strength
training without mass.

Lyle McDonald(a bit technical), Steve Freides, Watson Davies, Keith
Hudson, - sorry for any names missed - but those are some great
contributors, and there wisdom is archived.

Steve is of course the acknowledged expert in strength training without
mass - that goes without saying. But this Keith Hudson character is a
buffoon - same goes for Davies.

"Jim Ranieri" <nah,> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

For exercising for strength. Steve Freides is an expert in strength
training without mass.

Lyle McDonald(a bit technical), Steve Freides, Watson Davies, Keith
Hudson, - sorry for any names missed - but those are some great
contributors, and there wisdom is archived.

Steve is of course the acknowledged expert in strength training
without
mass

I sure as hell wouldn't say it - opinionated and vocal as I may be, I
ain't no 'xpert. Maybe when I can deadlift twice what I can now without
moving up a weight class I'll rethink that but, to date, I haven't done
much more than show up..

And let me hasten to add that there are many athletes following Sheiko
and a host of other well-know protocols who manage to lift heavy without
moving up a weight class, too. It ain't rocket science - heavy weights,
short sets, long rests, frequent training, and moderate eating.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Quoted message said:

- that goes without saying. But this Keith Hudson character is a
buffoon - same goes for Davies.

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

For exercising for strength. Steve Freides is an expert in strength
training without mass.

Lyle McDonald(a bit technical), Steve Freides, Watson Davies, Keith
Hudson, - sorry for any names missed - but those are some great
contributors, and there wisdom is archived.

Steve is of course the acknowledged expert in strength training without
mass - that goes without saying. But this Keith Hudson character is a
buffoon - same goes for Davies.

Steve has accomplished quite a bit, no doubt.

Among the many strength athletes who respect Pavel Tsatsouline,
there are more than a few who are BIG. Bud Jeffries comes to mind.
http://www.strongerman.com/

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Jim Ranieri" <nah,> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

For exercising for strength. Steve Freides is an expert in strength
training without mass.

Lyle McDonald(a bit technical), Steve Freides, Watson Davies, Keith
Hudson, - sorry for any names missed - but those are some great
contributors, and there wisdom is archived.

Steve is of course the acknowledged expert in strength training
without
mass

I sure as hell wouldn't say it - opinionated and vocal as I may be, I
ain't no 'xpert. Maybe when I can deadlift twice what I can now without
moving up a weight class I'll rethink that but, to date, I haven't done
much more than show up..

What are you DL'ing these days, anyway?