Paris bike shops

ilan said:

Well, I wanted to share with everyone the joy of being a cyclist in
Paris, and one of the
highlights are the absolutely awful bike shops. I had previously
thought the worst of the lot
was Cycle Laurent. The last time I went there in September, they told
me that there was
no point repainting a steel frame, because it cost around 600 Euros (I
later called up a local
frame builder, Levacon, who said he could do it for 200 including
disassembly and
assembly), and the time before that, they couldn't replace a broken
spoke, at least, not with
what I had because "they" didn't make double butted spokes anymore.

However, I found a new candidate for the absolutely worst bike shop in
Paris, which is
the Bouticycle St. Honore, which is just across from the Louvre. This
shop is new, as
the owner replaced his former auto parts store with a bike shop two
years ago, so it
combines Parisian arrogance with newbie ignorance. The first time I
went there, I was looking
for a 17 degree stem, and the owner assured me that he didn't know of
any such thing, and that if
I needed one for a new bicycle, then I would surely have to get a
custom frame. Interestingly,
he is a Look retailer, and yet he was unaware of the adjustable Look
ergostem. Which
leads me to my visit there today, as I was interested in checking out
details of the new
Look KG595 frame, as I was unable to figure out everything from the
Look website. In particular,
I wanted to know how their new seatpost works, that is, how it is
adjusted. The owner
explained that you did not adjust the post by moving it on a seat
collar, but that the
integrated seatpost was cut to your approximate size, and then
elastometers were used to
obtain the desired height. When I questioned him on the size of the
elastometers, he said
that the smallest size was 5mm. I was quite surprised at this because
it seems to me
that it is well known that saddle height is rarely adjusted by more
than 2mm increments.
He explained that to buy this frame, one needed an in depth postural
study, and after this
was accomplished, the saddle height would never be changed. I was
equally shocked at this,
because it seemed obvious to me that you might want to vary your saddle
height (especially
after I had seen the seemingly unadjustable Project 96 track bikes).
No, he and
his assistant assured me, once you reach your adult size, you never
change saddle height
ever. I brought up different saddle heights for climbing versus
cobbles, and also change of
pedals, and he told me that since this was such a concern to me, it
wasn't the bike for me.
I was quite puzzled by this, and after I left the store, I realised
that it was very common
to change saddle height because of the different types of saddles on
the market which
have different thicknesses, so what he said couldn't be true, you don't
invent a new
technology which is worse than the old one (the new integrated saddle
has many
advantages, for example, the seatpost cannot slip down into the frame).
So I called up
the Look company directly and talked to one of their representatives.
He was quite shocked
at what I told him, in particular, he explained that the adjustement
was made with carbon
fiber spacers, not elastometers, and that the smallest spacer was
1.25mm (I found this
information later on their website). He then asked me to name the bike
shop, and wasn't
surprised that it was in Paris. In fact, he said that they had a lot of
trouble finding dealers
inside big cities, they had none in Milan or Berlin, and that the Paris
shops were indeed
quite bad, especially compared to the ones in the near suburbs. It was
funny, because
he immediately gave the example of changing saddle height due to
changing from an
Arione saddle to an SLR saddle which was thinner, so he confirmed
everything I suspected
in even more detail. I think it upset him that the company went to so
much trouble to
have a new seatpost system that worked well, and that his dealers gave
the exact
opposite impression of the technology. Apart from that, he was the most
knowledgeable and
helpful company rep I've ever spoken to in France. As he said, it is
also true that bike
shops improve as soon as you get out of the city of Paris. If and when
I get this frame,
I will go to one of the excellent bike shops in the Vallee de
Chevreuse.

That type of experience has to occupy one of the levels of Hell all by
itself. Having a know-it-all clerk tell you that what you're looking
for doesn't exist (even though you have one at home, need another, and
the manufacturer seems to think that they make them), or have the idiot
give explicit advice on how to quickly damage the mechanism.

There has to be a school for that sort of thing. I'd imagine it was
just down the street from The Ministry of Silly Walks.

That Paris LBS must have stood for Lazy [censored] Sales. You should find
and cherish an XLBS (excellent local bike shop).

R

RicodJour said:

That Paris LBS must have stood for Lazy [censored] Sales. You should find
and cherish an XLBS (excellent local bike shop).

The Bouticycle St. Honore was actually named "Bike shop of the month"
in one of the French magazines last month.
The owner organises group rides from the shop and in the suburbs on
weekends. In fact,
a couple of the riders were there when I asked my questions and they
all seemed a little
annoyed by my intrusion. As soon as I closed the door, I heard mirthful
laughter, which
was at my expense, no doubt. The only missing element was them asking
for my current
bike, and me answering Ritchey and then being told that Ritchey only
makes components,
not bicycles.

Speaking of which, yet another typical "big city" interaction last week
(the last one of
this type occured in New York City). I was out walking when I saw an
older (so old)
guy on the sidewalk with a pristine all carbon Lapierre. I asked him
whether the carbon
Elite water bottle cages were any good, and he interrupted me by asking
whether I was
a bike rider, and then what bike I had. I told him Ritchey and he asked
"what's that?"
I pointed to his fork, saying, same company as that. "Oh, so you have a
nice
bike", he told me, somewhat annoyed. I then pointed to his seatpost, of
which
only about 5cm was exposed, on a 54cm frame, and said, "not really, but
at least
mine fits me." His angry response was: "This is a custom frame, and I
got it from
Fignon's mechanic!" OK, so I basically said that I doubted that
Lapierre made custom
frames, and that Fignon's mechanic gave him a frame which was way too
big for him,
so he did the only sensible thing and rode away...

As for good bike shops in the Paris area, the farther from Paris the
better, usually.

There is a bike shop not too far from the Eiffel Tower on the rue de
Grenelle,
(about 1km inside the city limits) and which used to be called Carnac
Sport. When I went there in October to try on
Carnac shoes, the salesman got very annoyed when I described them as
"his shoes" since,
according to him,
I had failed to read the name on the store window, which made no
reference to Carnac.
I later did a Yellow Pages search for "Carnac Sport" and that address
came up
immediately, as in my recollection. However, the salesman never said
anything incorrect, and was competent, if unfriendly.

A little further out is a bike shop at the Porte Maillot, about 200m
inside the city limits. They
aren't rude or annoying, they just ignore you, which is just fine if
you want to try on shoes,
because they leave you alone with their whole inventory. One day, I'm
going to go
in there and tell them that the first ever Paris-Roubaix started across
the street from their
store and see what reaction I get. I'll probably need a loud speaker to
get any kind of
reaction.

Once you leave Paris, the congeniality improves makedly. For example,
the bike shop La Gazelle in Boulogne, about 1km from the Paris
city limits. They were quite nice and let me try on shoes, and even
gave me some
used pairs to see how they stretched out. However, they told me that
Shimano road shoes
were incompatible with two hole cleats (e.g., Shimano old style SPD),
which I
had a hard time believing and I found the adapter plate online after a
1 minute internet search, and they also didn't know that Shimano shoes
came in half sizes.

However, the two I used to go to in the Vallee de Chevreuse, about 25km
from Paris,
where I used to live, are very good. The first is Espace Bellouis, in
Gif-sur-Yvette,
which is at the
bottom of the Cote de Gif, which is on the last stage of the Tour about
once every
two years. The owner was Lanterne Rouge of the 1972 Tour, and he is a
very good
mechanic. He is a little shy, as opposed to his rather imposing wife,
who runs the
store. When I mentioned this place to the Look rep, he said: "Oh, Mme.
Bellouis..."
The other store is Cycle Jacky in Villebon-sur-Yvette
http://www.cyclesjacky.fr/
They are much more
modern, and seem to be going more towards mountain biking. I went there
last
Friday when there was a Cannondale event. I met the French Cannondale
rep, who
was very nice. He talked about his trip to the Cannondale factory,
which was evidently
on his only trip to North America. He said it was near Altoona, and he
had some
interesting interactions with the locals, one person asked him if the
roads in
France were paved, so now at least he knows more about the US than they
do
about France.

Anyway, if you're in the Paris area and need to go to a bike shop, I
recommend those
places, and they probably speak English at Cycles Jacky, if that is
necessary....
Oh, and the riding there is also very good (which makes sense).

I should mention that since local bike shops in Paris are
overwhelmingly unpleasant, there
is an acceptable alternative, the two big sports chains Go Sport and
Decathlon. They carry some good equipment, e.g., all the best Michelin
tires, and
their clothing is very good and very inexpensive. Decathlon has
sponsored pro teams,
so you can even get discount pro level equipment on occasion.

-ilan

-ilan

On 20 Dec 2006 10:37:47 -0800, "ilan" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Ilan, I miss your cynicism. Come back to the group more often ;-)
--
JT
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Thanks, JT! By the way, do you really live in New York City? Basically,
the only thing
that keeps me going here in Paris, is that it's better than NYC, at
least for bike riding.

-ilan

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On 20 Dec 2006 10:37:47 -0800, "ilan" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Ilan, I miss your cynicism. Come back to the group more often ;-)
--
JT
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

ilan said:

Thanks, JT! By the way, do you really live in New York City? Basically,
the only thing
that keeps me going here in Paris, is that it's better than NYC, at
least for bike riding.

Yeah, I'm in NYC. Here's a recent bike shop discussion on our racing
discussion site
http://www.nyvelocity.com/content.php?id=1160
--
JT
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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John Forrest Tomlinson said:

ilan said:

Thanks, JT! By the way, do you really live in New York City? Basically,
the only thing
that keeps me going here in Paris, is that it's better than NYC, at
least for bike riding.

Yeah, I'm in NYC. Here's a recent bike shop discussion on our racing
discussion site
http://www.nyvelocity.com/content.php?id=1160
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Well, I feel for you, though it seems the intellectual level of NYC
riders seems way higher than anything over here. I once went to a NYC
bike shop, which was near 14th street. I don't know about the bikes,
but that's where I got my first pair of Vans, before I saw Sean Penn
wearing them in Fast Times at Ridgemont High, so a looong time ago...

Just to give you some more insight into the nature of French bike
shops, I had to go to California to replace my broken Zefal HP Frame
pump (which is French!!!), since pretty much every bike shop carries it
over there. I have never seen it stocked here (though I did see another
person riding with one last week), and the stores where I inquired
about it all told me that I should really get a mini pump. To seal my
popularity with the locals, the French rec.sport.cyclisme guys totally
flamed me when I declared that I refuse to lend my frame pump to
mini-pump people who flat.

Speaking of California, things have gotten so bad, I've even started
dreaming of going to Palo Alto BIcycles. In my dream, I go there after
being annoyed by Wheelsmith, which is a fairly realistic recreation of
times past.

-ilan

In article <[email hidden]>,

RicodJour said:

That type of experience has to occupy one of the levels of Hell all by
itself. Having a know-it-all clerk tell you that what you're looking
for doesn't exist (even though you have one at home, need another, and
the manufacturer seems to think that they make them),

My best experience with that was going to a Chevrolet dealer's parts department,
asking to order a door latch mechanism for a 1964 Chevelle and being told that "they
didn't use those then." Oh, so back in the caveman days of '64, you tied the doors
shut with rope (or a belt if you were classy), huh?

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

In article <[email hidden]>,

ilan said:

I once went to a NYC
bike shop, which was near 14th street. I don't know about the bikes,
but that's where I got my first pair of Vans, before I saw Sean Penn
wearing them in Fast Times at Ridgemont High, so a looong time ago...

Hmm, first set of Vans in '75.

Quoted message said:

Speaking of California, things have gotten so bad, I've even started
dreaming of going to Palo Alto BIcycles. In my dream, I go there after
being annoyed by Wheelsmith, which is a fairly realistic recreation of
times past.

Well, Wheelsmith is gone. I never really went to PAB much in the past, so I can't
relate to what you're saying. But they're a pretty good shop at the moment.
Friendly, knowledgeable people, good mechanics (if you need that) and generally a
lot of good product. Ask for Adam or Rudy...

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Howard Kveck said:

Well, Wheelsmith is gone. I never really went to PAB much in the past, so I can't
relate to what you're saying. But they're a pretty good shop at the moment.
Friendly, knowledgeable people, good mechanics (if you need that) and generally a
lot of good product. Ask for Adam or Rudy...

My favourite Wheelsmith moment: One of my dropouts got bent and was
unusable, so I went to Wheelsmith to get it fixed. They told me that it
would only be ready the following week, and maintained that position
even when I told them that I had a race that weekend and they were a
sponsor for my club (I had all the relevant documentation). I went to
PAB and they fixed it in 15 minutes, while I waited.

-ilan

ilan said:

However, the two I used to go to in the Vallee de Chevreuse, about 25km
from Paris,
where I used to live, are very good. The first is Espace Bellouis, in
Gif-sur-Yvette,
which is at the
bottom of the Cote de Gif, which is on the last stage of the Tour about
once every
two years. The owner was Lanterne Rouge of the 1972 Tour, and he is a
very good
mechanic. He is a little shy, as opposed to his rather imposing wife,
who runs the
store. When I mentioned this place to the Look rep, he said: "Oh, Mme.
Bellouis..."

Quoted message said:

The other store is Cycle Jacky in Villebon-sur-Yvette
http://www.cyclesjacky.fr/
They are much more
modern, and seem to be going more towards mountain biking. I went there
last
Friday when there was a Cannondale event. I met the French Cannondale
rep, who

Very highly recommended

--
Best Regards
"In all the immense literature about the 1939-1945 war, one may
observe a legend in process of being shaped. Gradually, authentic
memories of the war -- of its boredom, its futility, the sense it gave
of being part of a process of decomposition -- fade in favor of the
legendary version, embodied in Churchill's rhetoric and all the other
narratives by field marshals, air marshals and admirals, creating the
same impression of a titanic and forever memorable struggle in defense
of civilization. In fact, of course, the war's ostensible aims -- the
defense of a defunct Empire, a spent Revolution, and bogus Freedoms --
were meaningless in the context of the times. They will probably rate
in the end no more than a footnote on the last page of the last
chapter of the story of our civilization."
- Malcolm Muggeridge, Esquire Magazine, February 1968

Quoted message said:

Speaking of California, things have gotten so bad, I've even started
dreaming of going to Palo Alto BIcycles. In my dream, I go there after
being annoyed by Wheelsmith, which is a fairly realistic recreation of
times past.

Speaking of France, I've been reading your posts with great interest, and
just have to believe that there's got to be room in Paris for a shop with
some degree of customer service and some amount of respect for what the
customer would like, rather than what the shop thinks they should have. I
even showed your post to Bruno, our service manager in our Redwood City
location, who is originally from France and would like to return. I told him
that he ought to look into what it costs to rent in Paris, and figure out if
he could make a go of things.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"ilan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

ilan said:

Thanks, JT! By the way, do you really live in New York City? Basically,
the only thing
that keeps me going here in Paris, is that it's better than NYC, at
least for bike riding.

Yeah, I'm in NYC. Here's a recent bike shop discussion on our racing
discussion site
http://www.nyvelocity.com/content.php?id=1160
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Well, I feel for you, though it seems the intellectual level of NYC
riders seems way higher than anything over here. I once went to a NYC
bike shop, which was near 14th street. I don't know about the bikes,
but that's where I got my first pair of Vans, before I saw Sean Penn
wearing them in Fast Times at Ridgemont High, so a looong time ago...

Just to give you some more insight into the nature of French bike
shops, I had to go to California to replace my broken Zefal HP Frame
pump (which is French!!!), since pretty much every bike shop carries it
over there. I have never seen it stocked here (though I did see another
person riding with one last week), and the stores where I inquired
about it all told me that I should really get a mini pump. To seal my
popularity with the locals, the French rec.sport.cyclisme guys totally
flamed me when I declared that I refuse to lend my frame pump to
mini-pump people who flat.

Speaking of California, things have gotten so bad, I've even started
dreaming of going to Palo Alto BIcycles. In my dream, I go there after
being annoyed by Wheelsmith, which is a fairly realistic recreation of
times past.

-ilan

ilan said:

highlights are the absolutely awful bike shops. I had previously
thought the worst of the lot was Cycle Laurent.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~ewoud/cycling/cl.jpg

--
E. Dronkert

OK, thanks! Here are a couple of important points that I had previously
failed to mention:

1. I should say that there is at least one pleasant Parisian bike shop,
though not necessarily for high end bicycles. In particular, I went to
Les Petits Velos de Maurice which sells some high end bikes, but
specialises in commuter bikes. They were very pleasant, the saleseman
had an Auber-93 polo shirt, and he was the one who communicated to me
Levacon, the builder who could repaint my frame (not surprisingly he is
from the same department as Aubervillier). The salesman actually spent
some time looking this up, even though the store was pretty busy. So my
previous rantings were not 100% accurate, as usual.

2. The difficulties I presented probably apply only to a person such as
myself, and I don't think there are too many of those in Paris. In
particular, each time I went to this St. Honore bike shop, there were
other customers who got along very well with the owner. The point is
that no problem will occur if you follow his advice blindly and
therefore become his "buddy" (or rather his [censored]). This is likely why
I found Cycle Laurent so distasteful, as I didn't accept their word as
final.

3. As I was saying, the chains Go Sport and Decathlon are a good
Parisian alternative to bike shops. For example, after a disastrous
visit to Cycle Laurent, I went to the nearby Go Sport bicycle repair
shop (not the main Republique store, but an annex) and they were
extremely pleasant and helpful, they gave me an empty cardboard box to
store my bike, and also gave me (free of charge) wedges for the
dropouts.

4. From my observation, the Parisian bicycle culture is to keep a
bicycle for as long as possible, and the median bicycle age seems to be
about 20 years. About 1/4 of commuter bicycles are more than 30 years
old and have wing nuts. This is exaqctly contrary to the car culture,
which is to get rid of your car as quickly as possible, it is unusual
to see a car older than 15 years, even though the weather here is about
the same as in Northern California (basically, no snow). There is also
a penchant for Dutch bicycles and stores which cater only to this
market share, even though these bikes are heavy, have only one gear,
Paris is quite hilly, and there are absolutely perfect modern commuter
bikes at Go Sport which sell for 1/3 the price (I would say that less
than 1/5 of commuter bikes are of this modern type). In my opinion, the
Dutch bike is part of the Paris "pretentious package" that people
immigrating from the provinces often have.
A most interesting phenomenon are young women who ride famous racing
frames transformed into commuter bikes. I am now taking pictures of
these bicycles, and will post them here at some point. So far, I have
seen the following names: Petit Breton, Raphael Geminiani, Anquetil,
Poulidor, Roger Riviere, Stablinsky. Thus far, none of the riders had
any idea of who the person named on their bike was.
So, high end bicycles probably make up a minute percentage of the
Paris market. As soon as you get about 10km from Paris, you find very
good bike shops, as I noted previously.

4. There is also a crisis for bike shops, in particular, I had a long
conversation with the owner of the Chalons-en-Champagne (180km from
Paris) bike shop, who is 60 years old and who told me that he was
trying to discourage his son from taking over the business because of
the difficulties he was having. As an example of what they face, a Look
frame costs less in the US than in France, even though it is made here,
so internet and large chains like Go Sport are making it difficult for
local bike shops.

5. This is not too relevant, but it seems to me that the bicycle
culture among French recreational fitness riders (equivalent of masters
fatties) is to get the latest trick equipment, there is very little
retro culture (though I just found out that there is one retro
cyclosportive in Italy). If you want a frame pump, an old style wool
jersey, steel frame, or even a regular (non-aero) spoke, then you
will be out of luck in any French bike shop, though such items are
available in good US and Canadian stores.
As an amusing example, I recently saw one of the 80+ years old riders
at Vincennes riding a brand new Kuota Khan bicycle with all the best
equipment. He also "dropped" the large peloton which wasn't going too
fast, but that still seems pretty good for that age range. Of course,
that example seems like a good thing. It made me wonder what my new
bike would be like in 30 years.

-ilan

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Speaking of France, I've been reading your posts with great interest, and
just have to believe that there's got to be room in Paris for a shop with
some degree of customer service and some amount of respect for what the
customer would like, rather than what the shop thinks they should have. I
even showed your post to Bruno, our service manager in our Redwood City
location, who is originally from France and would like to return. I told him
that he ought to look into what it costs to rent in Paris, and figure out if
he could make a go of things.

Don't know it but somebody rates Vélo & Oxygen
see http://www.passionveloblog.com/archive-12-06-2006.html

That's the bike shop I mentioned at the Porte Maillot, the place where
you have to come with a bullhorn to get the attention of the staff.
Otherwise, I can recommend the place because they have a TV set going
with Eurosport, so you can see live coverage of Spring classics, if you
don't have access to that, and they'll let you stand around as long as
you want, since they won't notice your existence.

-ilan

Dan Gregory said:

Don't know it but somebody rates Vélo & Oxygen
see http://www.passionveloblog.com/archive-12-06-2006.html

ilan said:

Otherwise, I can recommend the place because they have a TV set going
with Eurosport, so you can see live coverage of Spring classics, if you
don't have access to that, and they'll let you stand around as long as
you want, since they won't notice your existence.

Sounds like a good place to practise how to disappear completely.

in 532617 20061221 135452 'Bruce Gilbert said:

How to make snooty French relatives real comfortable in Houston.
Pick them up at Intercontinental Airport. Bypass the house (in SW Houston)
and drive them 60 miles to eat at Joe's Barbeque in Alvin. Joe's serves all
you can eat ribs. Some of them are over 12 inches long. We sit at a huge
table and delight at throwing the ribs to each other when the plate empties.
Our relatives were horrified! It was glorious. We were sitting in shorts and
tee shirts, chewing on giant hunks of brutally dismembered animals, cooked
in smoke. They were still dressed like they stepped off the pages of Vogue.
Ain't nothin' so pretty as a 10 inch barbeque sauce streak on Halston...

You don't have to be snooty to dislike yob behaviour.

ilan said:

3. As I was saying, the chains Go Sport and Decathlon are a good
Parisian alternative to bike shops.

Yeah, I've pretty much stopped going to Paris bike shops and I just go to
DKT and Go. They ignore me just like a regular bike shop but at least they
don't ignore me with an attitude.

Quoted message said:

visit to Cycle Laurent, I went to the nearby Go Sport bicycle repair
shop (not the main Republique store, but an annex) and they were
extremely pleasant and helpful, they gave me an empty cardboard box to
store my bike, and also gave me (free of charge) wedges for the
dropouts.

Was that the place on Richard Lenoir? I'll try them next time I need a
box. I tried getting one from DKT but they break them down and fold them
immediately (and the security guard gave me a hassle about walking out
with an empty folded cardboard box).

Quoted message said:

5. This is not too relevant, but it seems to me that the bicycle
culture among French recreational fitness riders (equivalent of masters
fatties) is to get the latest trick equipment, there is very little
retro culture (though I just found out that there is one retro
cyclosportive in Italy). If you want a frame pump, an old style wool
jersey, steel frame, or even a regular (non-aero) spoke, then you
will be out of luck in any French bike shop, though such items are
available in good US and Canadian stores.

This worries me a bit. I'm tired of schlepping my bike back-and-forth so
this year I'm going to buy a bike and keep it in Paris. I don't have
anything against the latest trick bikes but I'm not interested in having
something that's built up with parts that may be hard to find in a couple
of years.

Quoted message said:

As an amusing example, I recently saw one of the 80+ years old riders
at Vincennes riding a brand new Kuota Khan bicycle with all the best
equipment.

You been feeding peanuts to the crows?

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bob Martin said:

in 532617 20061221 135452 'Bruce Gilbert said:

How to make snooty French relatives real comfortable in Houston.
Pick them up at Intercontinental Airport. Bypass the house (in SW Houston)
and drive them 60 miles to eat at Joe's Barbeque in Alvin. Joe's serves all
you can eat ribs. Some of them are over 12 inches long. We sit at a huge
table and delight at throwing the ribs to each other when the plate empties.
Our relatives were horrified! It was glorious. We were sitting in shorts and
tee shirts, chewing on giant hunks of brutally dismembered animals, cooked
in smoke. They were still dressed like they stepped off the pages of Vogue.
Ain't nothin' so pretty as a 10 inch barbeque sauce streak on Halston...

You don't have to be snooty to dislike yob behaviour.

....but you do to dislike barbeque!

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos