Pantani Question

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Perhaps Benjo has this at his fingertips. Does anyone know how much
Pantani weighed when he won the 98 Giro as compared to his weight when he
rode the 2003 Giro?

He weighed 57 kg in 98, and I remember he said in an interview befor the
Giro of 2003 he still had to lose 2 kg. So that makes 59.

Benjo

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Perhaps Benjo has this at his fingertips. Does anyone know how much
Pantani weighed when he won the 98 Giro as compared to his weight when he
rode the 2003 Giro?

He weighed 57 kg in 98, and I remember he said in an interview befor the
Giro of 2003 he still had to lose 2 kg. So that makes 59.

Benjo

Thanks. I've been watching the DVD of the 2003 Giro and thought he looked
heavier in the upper body. He climbed pretty well for a hematocrit of 50%.
It's rather sad to watch him knowing what his end was like.

Pantani has always been an inspiration whenever I take to the hills

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Perhaps Benjo has this at his fingertips. Does anyone know how much
Pantani weighed when he won the 98 Giro as compared to his weight when he
rode the 2003 Giro?

He weighed 57 kg in 98, and I remember he said in an interview befor the
Giro of 2003 he still had to lose 2 kg. So that makes 59.

Benjo

Thanks. I've been watching the DVD of the 2003 Giro and thought he looked
heavier in the upper body. He climbed pretty well for a hematocrit of 50%.
It's rather sad to watch him knowing what his end was like.

"Laz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Pantani has always been an inspiration whenever I take to the hills

Drugged or not, he was a wonderful climber to watch.

On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 22:06:21 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Perhaps Benjo has this at his fingertips. Does anyone know how much
Pantani weighed when he won the 98 Giro as compared to his weight when he
rode the 2003 Giro?

He weighed 57 kg in 98, and I remember he said in an interview befor the
Giro of 2003 he still had to lose 2 kg. So that makes 59.

Benjo

Thanks. I've been watching the DVD of the 2003 Giro and thought he looked
heavier in the upper body. He climbed pretty well for a hematocrit of 50%.
It's rather sad to watch him knowing what his end was like.

I remember watching the giro on tape this past winter when I was ill,
and had nothing to do but watch tv. SO I watched a lot of videos. It
was just after pantani died, and the giro was sort of poiignant since
it ws pantani's last race. The stage on the zoncolan was particulary
sad in a way. It was obvious pantani was a bit heavier, but he had
been doing really well that season and had really come alive in the
giro. On the zoncolan, it was really something that even with his
weight and the various health problems (that most of us didn't know
about at the time) he came in fifth. I was convinced that if pantani
was in his old form, he'd have flown up that mountain and won. Geez, I
could watch that all again, even if it is sad; it was one of the best
mountain stages I'd ever seen.

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 14:06:30 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Laz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Pantani has always been an inspiration whenever I take to the hills

Drugged or not, he was a wonderful climber to watch.

I remember reading all these tributes on eurosport after his death,
and a lot of people said the same thing. "Whenever I climb a hill, I
try to emulate how you did it." and so on.ANd others said he'd
inspired them to get into cycling after 1998. As for climbing like he
does I don't even bother trying.

Quoted message said:

From: [email hidden]
Date: 11/7/2004 4:09 PM Eastern

Quoted message said:

I remember reading all these tributes on eurosport after his death,
and a lot of people said the same thing. "Whenever I climb a hill, I
try to emulate how you did it." and so on.ANd others said he'd
inspired them to get into cycling after 1998. As for climbing like he
does I don't even bother trying.

I really think he could have been the best pure climber of at least a
generation. It's just too bad that wasn't enough.
I think the drugs were to get more and overall wins. Just sad when one of the
great ones thinks he needs a little bit more.
Bill C

(TritonRider) said:

Quoted message said:

From: [email hidden]
Date: 11/7/2004 4:09 PM Eastern

Quoted message said:

I remember reading all these tributes on eurosport after his death,
and a lot of people said the same thing. "Whenever I climb a hill, I
try to emulate how you did it." and so on.ANd others said he'd
inspired them to get into cycling after 1998. As for climbing like he
does I don't even bother trying.

I really think he could have been the best pure climber of at least a
generation. It's just too bad that wasn't enough.
I think the drugs were to get more and overall wins. Just sad when one of the
great ones thinks he needs a little bit more.
Bill C

What is it about climbers anyways? THere was an article on the BBC
website about pantani and how sometimes these climbers can be really
fragile emotionally, or loners or just odd. Of course, poor Jimenez,
and Luis Ocana, and there was another one, THierry (can't recall his
last name, he was french. I'll look it up)who killed himself. It's
like they're the sensitive artists who can't handle things or cope
with the fame, drugs aside.

Of course, there are plenty who aren't like that as we all know, but
the climbers seem to be more vulnerable. Is it the thin air?

Les Woodland has an interesting article in the latest ProCycling about the
classic climbers. He points out that guys like Gaul, Bahamontes and Kubler
were essentially climbing with four goats as they had four cog in the back
and later five. Those big jumps, plus not being able to shift out of the
saddle, made for quite a different climbing world.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(TritonRider) said:

Quoted message said:

From: [email hidden]
Date: 11/7/2004 4:09 PM Eastern

Quoted message said:

I remember reading all these tributes on eurosport after his death,
and a lot of people said the same thing. "Whenever I climb a hill, I
try to emulate how you did it." and so on.ANd others said he'd
inspired them to get into cycling after 1998. As for climbing like he
does I don't even bother trying.

I really think he could have been the best pure climber of at least a
generation. It's just too bad that wasn't enough.
I think the drugs were to get more and overall wins. Just sad when one of
the
great ones thinks he needs a little bit more.
Bill C

What is it about climbers anyways? THere was an article on the BBC
website about pantani and how sometimes these climbers can be really
fragile emotionally, or loners or just odd. Of course, poor Jimenez,
and Luis Ocana, and there was another one, THierry (can't recall his
last name, he was french. I'll look it up)who killed himself. It's
like they're the sensitive artists who can't handle things or cope
with the fame, drugs aside.

Of course, there are plenty who aren't like that as we all know, but
the climbers seem to be more vulnerable. Is it the thin air?

Make that four "cogs" although the typo has interesting connotations.

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Les Woodland has an interesting article in the latest ProCycling about the
classic climbers. He points out that guys like Gaul, Bahamontes and
Kubler were essentially climbing with four goats as they had four cog in
the back and later five. Those big jumps, plus not being able to shift
out of the saddle, made for quite a different climbing world.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(TritonRider) said:

>From: [email hidden]
>Date: 11/7/2004 4:09 PM Eastern

>I remember reading all these tributes on eurosport after his death,
>and a lot of people said the same thing. "Whenever I climb a hill, I
>try to emulate how you did it." and so on.ANd others said he'd
>inspired them to get into cycling after 1998. As for climbing like he
>does I don't even bother trying.
>
>
I really think he could have been the best pure climber of at least a
generation. It's just too bad that wasn't enough.
I think the drugs were to get more and overall wins. Just sad when one
of the
great ones thinks he needs a little bit more.
Bill C

What is it about climbers anyways? THere was an article on the BBC
website about pantani and how sometimes these climbers can be really
fragile emotionally, or loners or just odd. Of course, poor Jimenez,
and Luis Ocana, and there was another one, THierry (can't recall his
last name, he was french. I'll look it up)who killed himself. It's
like they're the sensitive artists who can't handle things or cope
with the fame, drugs aside.

Of course, there are plenty who aren't like that as we all know, but
the climbers seem to be more vulnerable. Is it the thin air?

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(TritonRider) said:

Quoted message said:

From: [email hidden]
Date: 11/7/2004 4:09 PM Eastern

Quoted message said:

I remember reading all these tributes on eurosport after his death,
and a lot of people said the same thing. "Whenever I climb a hill, I
try to emulate how you did it." and so on.ANd others said he'd
inspired them to get into cycling after 1998. As for climbing like he
does I don't even bother trying.

I really think he could have been the best pure climber of at least a
generation. It's just too bad that wasn't enough.
I think the drugs were to get more and overall wins. Just sad when one of
the
great ones thinks he needs a little bit more.
Bill C

What is it about climbers anyways? THere was an article on the BBC
website about pantani and how sometimes these climbers can be really
fragile emotionally, or loners or just odd. Of course, poor Jimenez,
and Luis Ocana, and there was another one, THierry (can't recall his
last name, he was french. I'll look it up)who killed himself. It's
like they're the sensitive artists who can't handle things or cope
with the fame, drugs aside.

Of course, there are plenty who aren't like that as we all know, but
the climbers seem to be more vulnerable. Is it the thin air?

It's the curse of René Pottier, the first "king of the mountains'' in the
Tour. He crushed his opponents in 1906 and hung himself six months later.
The Frenchman you referring to is Thierry Claveyrolat. He comitted suicide
in 1999. On the other hand, many other first rate climbers weren't mentally
fragile at all. For instance, Bahamontes, Bartali, Van Impe, Robic, Herrera,
Virenque, etc. Gaul is another matter, but his problem was that he was
hooked on amphitamine.

Benjo Maso

On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 21:26:05 +0100, "benjo maso" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 07 Nov 2004 21:19:25 GMT, [email hidden] (TritonRider) wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What is it about climbers anyways? THere was an article on the BBC
website about pantani and how sometimes these climbers can be really
fragile emotionally, or loners or just odd. Of course, poor Jimenez,
and Luis Ocana, and there was another one, THierry (can't recall his
last name, he was french. I'll look it up)who killed himself. It's
like they're the sensitive artists who can't handle things or cope
with the fame, drugs aside.

Of course, there are plenty who aren't like that as we all know, but
the climbers seem to be more vulnerable. Is it the thin air?

It's the curse of René Pottier, the first "king of the mountains'' in the
Tour. He crushed his opponents in 1906 and hung himself six months later.
The Frenchman you referring to is Thierry Claveyrolat. He comitted suicide
in 1999. On the other hand, many other first rate climbers weren't mentally
fragile at all. For instance, Bahamontes, Bartali, Van Impe, Robic, Herrera,
Virenque, etc. Gaul is another matter, but his problem was that he was
hooked on amphitamine.

Benjo Maso

Yes, that was the guy's name, I found it anyways. There was a nice
photo of him in the tour on the Alpe and it was a sad story. BUt
you're absolutely right, plenty of these guys are perfectly sane and
normal. I remember seeing Bahamontes on tv when they presented
Virenque with his mountain jersey in 2003. Phil and Paul were
commenting that except for his gray hair he looked exactly the same,
and he did! I saw photos of him from his tour days and he looked
almost the same except with black hair. HE's still in great shape.
Herrera is apparently a bit eccentric, but it doesn't sound like he's
suicidal or depressed or anything like that. ON graham watson's site
there's a great photo of Herrera all covered in blood from a horrible
crash, somewhere in the alps. Apparently, he went on to win that
stage!

Funny to think that with all the great spanish cyclists, the tour's
first spanish winner wasn't until 1959!

benjo maso said:

On the other hand, many other first rate climbers weren't mentally
fragile at all. For instance, Bahamontes, Bartali, Van Impe, Robic, Herrera,
Virenque,

Legend has it that Virenque survived many days of grueling interrogation
at the hands of the French police over the course of 10 months before
confessing to systematic drug use. David Millar, however, a time
trialist, caved after less than 48 hours over a measly few empty ampules
of EPO.

Draw your own conclusions.

gym gravity said:

Legend has it that Virenque survived many days of grueling interrogation
at the hands of the French police over the course of 10 months before
confessing to systematic drug use. David Millar, however, a time
trialist, caved after less than 48 hours over a measly few empty ampules
of EPO.

Draw your own conclusions.

Virenque was signing autographs and posing for photos with policemen's
wives...

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 21:26:05 +0100, "benjo maso" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 07 Nov 2004 21:19:25 GMT, [email hidden] (TritonRider) wrote:

Quoted message said:

>
>
What is it about climbers anyways? THere was an article on the BBC
website about pantani and how sometimes these climbers can be really
fragile emotionally, or loners or just odd. Of course, poor Jimenez,
and Luis Ocana, and there was another one, THierry (can't recall his
last name, he was french. I'll look it up)who killed himself. It's
like they're the sensitive artists who can't handle things or cope
with the fame, drugs aside.

Of course, there are plenty who aren't like that as we all know, but
the climbers seem to be more vulnerable. Is it the thin air?

It's the curse of René Pottier, the first "king of the mountains'' in the
Tour. He crushed his opponents in 1906 and hung himself six months later.
The Frenchman you referring to is Thierry Claveyrolat. He comitted suicide
in 1999. On the other hand, many other first rate climbers weren't
mentally
fragile at all. For instance, Bahamontes, Bartali, Van Impe, Robic,
Herrera,
Virenque, etc. Gaul is another matter, but his problem was that he was
hooked on amphitamine.

Benjo Maso

Yes, that was the guy's name, I found it anyways. There was a nice
photo of him in the tour on the Alpe and it was a sad story. BUt
you're absolutely right, plenty of these guys are perfectly sane and
normal. I remember seeing Bahamontes on tv when they presented
Virenque with his mountain jersey in 2003. Phil and Paul were
commenting that except for his gray hair he looked exactly the same,
and he did! I saw photos of him from his tour days and he looked
almost the same except with black hair. HE's still in great shape.
Herrera is apparently a bit eccentric, but it doesn't sound like he's
suicidal or depressed or anything like that. ON graham watson's site
there's a great photo of Herrera all covered in blood from a horrible
crash, somewhere in the alps. Apparently, he went on to win that
stage!

Funny to think that with all the great spanish cyclists, the tour's
first spanish winner wasn't until 1959!

Spain hasn't been always a great cycling nation, as it is today. Before 1930
there have been only three spanish riders who had incidentally participated
to the Tour (Blanco in 1910, Janer in 1920, 21, 24 and Canardo in 1928 and
1929). In 1930 Desgrange invited a full-size Spanish team was invited, but
in 1931 it had been reduced to one rider (Cepeda). It took four more years
before there was again a complete spanish team. At that time in Spain
bicycle racing was clearly in the lift, but the Civil War was of course an
enormous set back. After 1939 cycling became extremely popular and the star
riders earned as much money as the famous matadors, but because Spain as a
cycling nation was almost completely in isolation, the sport developed in a
very peculiar way. Just as in Italy in the 1980's the stars weren't so much
trying to win (they were payed anyway) as trying to make the their
competitors lose and didn't hardly take any risks. Most races ended in mass
sprints, even mountain stages. The climbers sprinted like madmen to arrive
first a the top of the cols, but after that usually waited for the pack
(just like Bahamontes in the Tour of '54). But although the spanish public
was convinced that their own champions were the best riders of the world,
the truth wa sthat they were not capable anymore to compete on an
international level, as was shown in 1949 when Spain made its comeback in
the Tour and the whole team abandoned the race after six stages. To avoid a
new disaster the Spanish Cycling Union didn't even dare to sent a team to
the World Championship nor to the Tour of 1950 and more or less forced their
riders to participate to international races. So it was only in 1951 that
Spain could really begin to play a serious role in the Tour. So that they
had only eight years to wait for the victory of Bahamonts was after all not
bad at all.

Benjo

Stewart Fleming said:

gym gravity said:

Legend has it that Virenque survived many days of grueling
interrogation at the hands of the French police over the course of 10
months before confessing to systematic drug use. David Millar,
however, a time trialist, caved after less than 48 hours over a measly
few empty ampules of EPO.

Draw your own conclusions.

Virenque was signing autographs and posing for photos with policemen's
wives...

What about VeloRod's Mom?

benjo maso said:

Spain hasn't been always a great cycling nation, as it is today. Before 1930
there have been only three spanish riders who had incidentally participated
to the Tour (Blanco in 1910, ...

All history books tell that Vicente Blanco "El Cojo" (The Crippled, because he
had one leg longer than the other) was the first spaniard to ride the Tour. Not
that he rode much, not at least officially. After riding from Bilbao to Paris to
take the start, he was so exhausted that he couldn't make it to Roubaix the
first day. But he really wasn't the first spanish rider at the Tour. Jose Maria
Javierre took the start in 1909, and managed to finish 17th. Born in Jaca, his
family had moved to France when he was only a child, and he used a French
version of his name (Habierre) in his inscription. That explains he's always
labeled as french, although it was not until he fought in WWI that he got the
nationality.

Quoted message said:

... Janer in 1920, 21, 24 and Canardo in 1928 and 1929).

That was Carmona, 4th in 1929 and the first spanish stage winer. Cañardo only
rode the second half of 1928 as a replacement rider. There were other unknown
spanish riders as well those years (Otero, Manteca, ...)

Quoted message said:

In 1930 Desgrange invited a full-size Spanish team was invited, but
in 1931 it had been reduced to one rider (Cepeda). It took four more years
before there was again a complete spanish team. At that time in Spain
bicycle racing was clearly in the lift, but the Civil War was of course an
enormous set back. After 1939 cycling became extremely popular and the star
riders earned as much money as the famous matadors, but because Spain as a
cycling nation was almost completely in isolation, the sport developed in a
very peculiar way. Just as in Italy in the 1980's the stars weren't so much
trying to win (they were payed anyway) as trying to make the their
competitors lose and didn't hardly take any risks. Most races ended in mass
sprints, even mountain stages. The climbers sprinted like madmen to arrive
first a the top of the cols, but after that usually waited for the pack
(just like Bahamontes in the Tour of '54).

The tradition of riding for the cols not for the win was started in the 30s by
Trueba, first winner of the polka dot jersey (i guess it was not polka dot back
then). By the way, Bahamontes only stopped to have an icecream at the summit of
the Col de la Romeyère to wait for the repair car. He had several broken peaks
and couldn't use the brakes as a result. Or at least this is what he claims.

Quoted message said:

But although the spanish public
was convinced that their own champions were the best riders of the world,
the truth wa sthat they were not capable anymore to compete on an
international level, as was shown in 1949 when Spain made its comeback in
the Tour and the whole team abandoned the race after six stages. To avoid a
new disaster the Spanish Cycling Union didn't even dare to sent a team to
the World Championship nor to the Tour of 1950 and more or less forced their
riders to participate to international races. So it was only in 1951 that
Spain could really begin to play a serious role in the Tour. So that they
had only eight years to wait for the victory of Bahamonts was after all not
bad at all.

Particularly when the next win only came after 14 years, and it took another 14
years for the third one. Of course, it was even worse with monuments (45 years
separated Poblet and Freire wins) and worlds (Olano was the first gold)

Jenko

"Jenko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

benjo maso said:

Spain hasn't been always a great cycling nation, as it is today. Before
1930 there have been only three spanish riders who had incidentally
participated to the Tour (Blanco in 1910, ...

All history books tell that Vicente Blanco "El Cojo" (The Crippled,
because he had one leg longer than the other) was the first spaniard to
ride the Tour. Not that he rode much, not at least officially. After
riding from Bilbao to Paris to take the start, he was so exhausted that he
couldn't make it to Roubaix the first day. But he really wasn't the first
spanish rider at the Tour. Jose Maria Javierre took the start in 1909, and
managed to finish 17th. Born in Jaca, his family had moved to France when
he was only a child, and he used a French version of his name (Habierre)
in his inscription. That explains he's always labeled as french, although
it was not until he fought in WWI that he got the nationality.

Interesting. I didn't know it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

... Janer in 1920, 21, 24 and Canardo in 1928 and 1929).

That was Carmona, 4th in 1929 and the first spanish stage winer. Cañardo
only rode the second half of 1928 as a replacement rider. There were other
unknown spanish riders as well those years (Otero, Manteca, ...)

I stand corrected.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In 1930 Desgrange invited a full-size Spanish team was invited, but
in 1931 it had been reduced to one rider (Cepeda). It took four more
years before there was again a complete spanish team. At that time in
Spain bicycle racing was clearly in the lift, but the Civil War was of
course an enormous set back. After 1939 cycling became extremely popular
and the star riders earned as much money as the famous matadors, but
because Spain as a cycling nation was almost completely in isolation, the
sport developed in a very peculiar way. Just as in Italy in the 1980's
the stars weren't so much trying to win (they were payed anyway) as
trying to make the their competitors lose and didn't hardly take any
risks. Most races ended in mass sprints, even mountain stages. The
climbers sprinted like madmen to arrive first a the top of the cols, but
after that usually waited for the pack (just like Bahamontes in the Tour
of '54).

The tradition of riding for the cols not for the win was started in the
30s by Trueba, first winner of the polka dot jersey (i guess it was not
polka dot back then). By the way, Bahamontes only stopped to have an
icecream at the summit of the Col de la Romeyère to wait for the repair
car. He had several broken peaks and couldn't use the brakes as a result.
Or at least this is what he claims.

Trueba didn't actually wait, but he was one of the worst descenders in the
history of cycling. In the course of times Bahamontes has told several
different versions of the incident on the top of the Romeyère. In 1954
(l'Equipe) he claimed he waited because he was afraid descending alone. By
the way, it's almost certain he never eat an ice cream on the top of the
Romeyère. First of all, the incident wasn't mentioned in the Equipe the day
after. What's more, there are many pictures of Bahamontes made during the
climb of the col. And yet nobody has ever seen a photo of him eating an
icecream. I can hardly imagine that the photographers thought it wasn't
worth the trouble, so IMO there can be only one explanation: the incident
did never happen. Initially Bahamontes denied he had eaten an ice cream.
Later he confirmed it and the last time I've seen him interviewed he said
that he did accept an ice cream from one of the spectators, but instead of
eating it, he put it in his drinking bottle. But again, there are no
pictures of it.

Benjo Maso