overtraining possible with my job ?

[ridinbikes247]

perfect - exactly what I was looking for ! simplicity !
2 sessions of long intervals seperated with a 10 minute recovery/tempo between sessions
I just want to be an average guy who can hold a 20-22 mph average on a 50 mile ride. I dont have enough spare time to handle a ton of training needed to be a cat/pro 1 racer

 

[ridinbikes247]

if I do a 15-20 minute interval, should my recoovery/cool down be 20 minutes also ? or should I do 20 minutes on and 10 minutes off ?

 

[bgoetz]

20 on 10 off is what I do. Any more than 10 minutes is really not needed and will just prolong your workouts. The hardest part is doing them outside, you really need a special place where you can go for miles at a time without having to slow your pace, I personally find them easier to do inside on the trainer.

 

[Felt_Rider]

ridinbikes, going back to your initial post I can completely empathize of your concern of getting dropped. Though I do not race I was invited to ride with a group several years back that is much more veteran than myself. For several years I was getting dropped within the first few miles and even on days they went a little easier I just did not have the endurance to hang at their speed on routes greater than 60 miles.

But just as bgoetz pointed out there are many that follow this similar type of plan using longer interval times. Just as he pointed out I found that training indoors provided the best place for me to achieve this goal, but that is mainly because there are few places in my area outside that one can travel at the required training intensity without disruptions.

I just posted on my blog the other day what I try to follow as a routine. I started much like bgoetz pointed out with a couple of days of the standard 2 x 20's combined with longer weekend rides at a lower intensity. Over a period of a year my body has adapted enough to extend the intervals in several ways.

http://thecyclingaddiction.blogspot.com/2011/09/fall-into-place.html

Maybe there is something within that post that can be helpful as well in addition to what bgoetz and others have pointed out. I can say that by following these principles that my 2011 season has become one of my best for endurance events. I have not quite reached my goal of doing a sub 5 hour century, but when I am fresh I can easily hang with my group without the fear of being dropped.

Not to boast, but a few weeks ago I was on a group ride and came fresh, which is rare, because I missed some of the weekday training and those veterans were really having trouble holding my wheel. So this really does work as long as there is consistency and honest applied effort at the sustained intensity levels during those training sessions. I still have a long way to go myself so you can bet I will be in the house of pain training each week all year round.

So keep in mind about doing this type of training you will still get dropped for a while even as you improve because you will take with you some fatigue to those rides. If you are fatigued and then try to hang with them you may take yourself into a training hole that requires greater recovery and thus interfere with those crucial training days. I learned this the hard way and finally got used to being dropped and riding at my own pace the remaining miles. I use my power meter to govern my intensity on the group rides so I do not overreach.

By the way the outline of my schedule on the blog is a goal and I do not always hit that goal because of work and life stresses or because of fatigue. Don't let those things disturb you. We all have less than perfect training days now and then, but it is the continual persistence that will eventually help you reach your goal.

For instance yesterday my goal was to do 3 x 20's at 90 to 91% FT.
What actually happened was 20 min. @ .95IF, 20 min. @ .91IF and 10 min. @ .8IF
Since my time is limited I use no more than 5 minutes between intervals.

I did not hit the goal on the mark because it was my turn to cook dinner last night and because of fatigue from previous training sessions. But this does not concern me because it was still a pretty decent training session for a recreational guy.

disclaimer: I am not a training guru. I am just a recreational cyclist trying to improve. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by ridinbikes247 .

I just want to be an average guy who can hold a 20-22 mph average on a 50 mile ride. I don't have enough spare time to handle a ton of training needed to be a cat/pro 1 racer

Once in your life? Once a year? Once a month? Once a week? Once a day?

Alone or in a group?

Your training needs to reflect your long term goals.

---

Today I did a "group" ride. I started to do 190w (about 20mph) for a 7 mile segment of my daily ride. The ride is flat for 3 miles and then has small hills for 4 miles. No truck traffic. No stops. A reasonable amount of bike traffic.

As I started a fellow passed me with a "have a good ride" comment. Out of curiosity I rode 4-5 seconds behind him.

For the flat section: I rode hands on the hoods. 200-250w. Hands on the hoods. Cadence 100-110. No need to shift. I guess his power output was about the same. His hands were on the hoods. His cadence was 90-100. He never shifted.

First hill: Hands still on the hoods. No shifting, but our cadences dropped. I was doing 400-450w. He was a bit heavier so he was putting out a bit more power. I stayed seated. He was out of the saddle. Toward the top his power dropped a bit so I closed the gap a bit in anticipation of him working hard on the downhill, but he took it easy down the hill.

Rest of the hills. Same as the first but a bit less effort. On the uphill I was doing 300-350w to keep my distance. On the downhill we were spinning at low power.

1/4 mile from his expected turnaround I dropped back. No need to make it look like a race.

I made my numbers for the day.

I tell this story to show that some people do ride 20mph training rides in a reasonable fashion. I am sure that you can find some people to take pace off of. (And I did have a good ride.)

 

[swampy1970]

Originally Posted by An old Guy .



32-33mph is a bunch of fat middle aged old guys on $8000 bikes.

When I was 58-60 and getting back into shape, I would do 32-33mph alone to get out of the way of traffic. I expect most serious bicyclists can.

The reality is that if your legs are screaming and you are going above 30mph on public roads, it is best to ease up and pay attention to the roads. There are no prizes for riding fast.

---

I had done 1500' of hard climbing (10% grade) on Thursday. I was so tired on Friday I put off my 2000' of hard climbing (15% grade) until the afternoon when I got tired of watching paint dry.

I was out today - Saturday. Just an easy day. I passed 3 guys who looked like racers (shaved legs, expensive bikes, matching outfits) at a traffic light where they appeared to be wasting time. They came past going fast a mile later. I was tired and just out for an easy day. But it was time for me to kick my cadence up to 120. I caught them a couple miles later. Apparently they had some need to pass me at high speed and then ride at 80-90w. I sat well behind them. There was no need to pass and make a race out an easy ride. They turned off my route a mile later.

Got my heart rate above 150 for a whole 43 seconds. Just an easy 4 hour ride.

1500' of hard climbing on a 10% is hard yet 33mph is for fat gits on flash bikes? I see your logic is somewhat flawed still, unless you were keeping ProTour speeds of about 12 to 14mph.

The truth is that you're full of sh1t. Flash bikes really don't make you go fast when you're fat and struggling to get a hold of the brake lever hoods, like most fat guys are with their flash bike with the bars looking like they have "pro" positions. 33mph, even sitting on a wheel, requires lots o' grunt if you're keeping it going for a while. When I say "a while" I don't mean for something piffling like 25seconds. 33mph or ~54km/hr is Tony Martin sitting on the front of the Tour de France peloton in the last 10km stringing the bunch out into a single line with half of the guys thinking "death by meteorite would be preferable to this", while he sets up the last few guys in the HTC leadout train. Cancellara wins time trials at 33mph... or at least he used to before he left Riis's side.

Tonight I rode home at 9,050rpm. 34mph was easy. Wind blowing in the hair, life was good, acceleration was fairly rapid... then I realised I better shift gears in the S2000 to 2nd...

 

[swampy1970]

Originally Posted by ridinbikes247 .

what should the recovery time be if I do a 5 minute interval ? 5 minute recovery ?
also, would it hurt to do 60 second sprint intervals,and then do 5 minute intervals in the same workout, or should I keep my short sprints in 1 day and my longer intervals on a opposite day ? ?

Cycling is an aerobic sport and as such you need to train in a way to improve your aerobic ability. There's no quick way but it's not rocket science either. 5 minute and 60 second intervals will help but it's not really what you need right now.

There's a few basic things you need to tackle.

1. Planning a training schedule for at least the next few months. Day to day, week to week training doesn't cut it. Training has to be progressive over a period of time. Baby steps gained during meaningful training usually reap long term benefits.

2. Bike fit. To go fast you need to be aero, unless you happen to be able to hold 400+ watts for an hour. I'm guessing you can't so aero it is. To be aero and stay that way you need to be somewhat limber but you need to have the bike fit you - not the other way around. You need to be comfy and able to find a position where you can relax when low and in the drops.

The bike doesn't make you fast, you do.

Do a google search for "andy coggan pursuit training" and you'll see a link to a PPT file for "The individual pursuit: demands and preparation........." download it. Read it and if you don't "get it" ask. Andy posts on here from time to time and provides valuable insight. Note - alot of time is spent preparing for the high intensity work that comes at the end. A lot of time that spent doing sessions that are far from glamourous or very exciting. Sitting on your best 2 hour pace in the cold, wind and rain (or snow) during winter on a bike that looks like it was dredged up from the bottom of the Amazon can sometimes be described as "not fun" but is often "rewarding" and the end result a few months later often leads to smiles.

Coggan/Allen wrote "the bible" on training with a powermeter but you can apply the theory in the book to training without one too. "Training and racing with a powermeter" is almost worth it's weight in gold. Friel's book is a good read too.

Without a base of endurance training, alot of the short distance all out efforts will not yield the benefits that it should. If you only have about an hour to spare then 2 intervals of 20 minutes is your friend. Sneak in another 10 minute or longer interval if you can tack on an extra few minutes. Find a pace you can sustain with a fair amount of concentration but is just short of killing yourself. You don't need to be on the verge of puking. Alternate those rides with some of just slightly lesser intensity that last the entire hour.

Ride hard and ride with a purpose. Don't forget to rest.

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by swampy1970 .




1500' of hard climbing on a 10% is hard yet 33mph is for fat gits on flash bikes? I see your logic is somewhat flawed still, unless you were keeping ProTour speeds of about 12 to 14mph.

The truth is that you're full of sh1t. Flash bikes really don't make you go fast when you're fat and struggling to get a hold of the brake lever hoods, like most fat guys are with their flash bike with the bars looking like they have "pro" positions. 33mph, even sitting on a wheel, requires lots o' grunt if you're keeping it going for a while. When I say "a while" I don't mean for something piffling like 25seconds. 33mph or ~54km/hr is Tony Martin sitting on the front of the Tour de France peloton in the last 10km stringing the bunch out into a single line with half of the guys thinking "death by meteorite would be preferable to this", while he sets up the last few guys in the HTC leadout train. Cancellara wins time trials at 33mph... or at least he used to before he left Riis's side.

Tonight I rode home at 9,050rpm. 34mph was easy. Wind blowing in the hair, life was good, acceleration was fairly rapid... then I realised I better shift gears in the S2000 to 2nd...

You do realize that it is not the percentage of climb or distance that makes a ride hard? It is the power output and duration that make it hard. But you are correct for a pro my effort was just recovery.

You do realize that some of the less strong riders on this site are able to ride with a group at 33mph (I forget the exact claim)?

You do realize that sitting in at 33mph for the last 10k is all in a day's work for a pro?

Don't try to compare me to European pros. On their worse day they are much better than I ever was. No comparison. Maybe you can tell us how you compare to European pros.

 

[bgoetz]

Tonight I rode home at 9,050rpm. 34mph was easy. Wind blowing in the hair, life was good, acceleration was fairly rapid... then I realised I better shift gears in the S2000 to 2nd...

Heck yes!! I did not realize that I was in the presence of another S2K geek. I loved my GPW/black AP2. Unfortunately I sold it when I could no longer justify letting it sit in the garage for weeks on end while I was out on the bike. There are still many days, when I am completely on the rivet that I wonder if I could not be getting the same thrill with a lot less work.......

 

[bgoetz]

Originally Posted by An old Guy .
Don't try to compare me to European pros. On their worse day they are much better than I ever was. No comparison. Maybe you can tell us how you compare to European pros.

He does not have to qualify himself, at least not for me. Unlike your posts, all of his have enough useful insight that we don't need any proof that he knows cycling, you can just tell from reading it. That is what you don't get, the people who argue with you have enough experience in this sport to see right through any BS story of you ridding tempo off of the front of a bunch of Cat 2 cyclist and ill advised statements, to realize that all you are doing is trying real hard to make yourself seem like something that you have never been and will never be...

BTW you do realize that power output and duration are basically the same thing as % grade and distance when you are talking a steady grind up a hill........

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by bgoetz .


BTW you do realize that power output and duration are basically the same thing as % grade and distance when you are talking a steady grind up a hill........

If I recall correctly, at 200w 1500' of climb is about 30 minutes. At 300w the same climb takes 20 minutes.

My 1 hour FTP test yields 210-220w. That translates to 220-230w for 20 minutes. Riding at 90% of my FTP for 30 minutes. Riding at 140% of my FTP for 20 minutes is not only hard but beyond belief.

See how wrong you are.

(240-250w on that climb is hard for me.)

---

All this commentary started because some want-a-be racer made some disparaging remarks: that overweight middle aged men on $8000 bicycles not able to ride at 34mph for the length of his sprint. His sprint was less than 10 seconds.

I recall this springs club century. I was passed by several small groups - middle aged men who were well over 200 pounds, with matching outfits. I did not pay much attention to their bikes. I was more impressed that they had a nice line and the guys at the front were taking long pulls. I don't know how fast these guys rode, but I was doing 300w when they passed me. I expect that each of these groups had the ability to get over 30mph on the flats.

No need to disparage other riders.

 

[jsirabella]

How are you able to do all this speed with such a low power output? I mean how long are these hills that you are doing >400 watts? I am just 245 watts and now given the loss of weight I can hang with people but your speeds do not make sense to me and your ability to hang on with Cat 2 and 1s also make no sense.

-js

 

[bgoetz]

I am done debating it is pointless, he lives in a completely different world than the rest of us, one where he interprets only what he wants to from posts, most of which is completely wrong. Besides I guess I am just a "want-to-be" racer, lol. Kinda funny though that with an FTP that is significantly more than his, he is somehow the "king of the road" who can ride tempo off of the front of Cat 2s and yet I get the classification of a want-to-be racer, but whatever/img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif.

He gets the last word, I am done feeding the pigeons

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by jsirabella .

How are you able to do all this speed with such a low power output? I mean how long are these hills that you are doing >400 watts? I am just 245 watts and now given the loss of weight I can hang with people but your speeds do not make sense to me and your ability to hang on with Cat 2 and 1s also make no sense.

-js

The 400+w output was necessary to keep up with the guy I was following. At the top of the climb my heart rate was below 150 so it could not have been more than a 90 seconds (1/2 mile at 20mph). No great effort. But it was typical of what I would expect of a group ride advertised as 20mph. Much different than several miles at 30+mph that others have indicated is typical. (I should point out that my limiting factor is how fast my heart rate climbs not my ability to put out power. At 400w my heart rate climbs about 10 beats per minute. That gives me about 5 minutes of climbing at that effort.)

While I could ride with the fast guys when I was young, that was 20-30 years ago. I don't ride with them any more. I don't even claim to be able to keep up with middle aged overweight guys on $8000 bicycles. I am happy with following the slow guys.

I suppose your 245w FTP was done after a rest day, for only 20 minutes, and at the end you felt really bad. My 210-220w FTP was done without a rest day, I quit because my heart rate hit the max after 60 minutes, and after a minute rest I was ready to go again (most likely I went out and rode for several hours).

I think you may be making the mistake of training for the test and not your goal. While I know my FTP, I don't train to improve my FTP. I train to improve my performance at 5 hours.

 

[lanierb]

Originally Posted by An old Guy .
The 400+w output was necessary to keep up with the guy I was following. At the top of the climb my heart rate was below 150 so it could not have been more than a 90 seconds (1/2 mile at 20mph). No great effort. But it was typical of what I would expect of a group ride advertised as 20mph. Much different than several miles at 30+mph that others have indicated is typical. (I should point out that my limiting factor is how fast my heart rate climbs not my ability to put out power. At 400w my heart rate climbs about 10 beats per minute. That gives me about 5 minutes of climbing at that effort.)

Above you said your FTP was 210-220w. If that's true there's no way you can do 400w for 5mins (which would put your FTP at >300w for sure). 400 watts for one minute would be about right. So one or the other is way off: either your FTP is much more than 210-220, or your 5min power is much less than 400w. Part of the reason people get frustrated with your posts is the total lack of a consistent story. Your story is so all over the place that it honestly seems like the whole thing is made up.

 

[jsirabella]

og->The 245 watts for one hour was not after a rest day but a short day where I only did one 20 minute interval the day before. I do believe watts/kg is much more important than just pure watts. It is the difference maker in the park for me now. My goal has been and still is to get back to 260 watts ftp which I did before my back issues. I was making steady progress and with shorter rides in the variety of 1-2 hours but instead of extending my intervals I would just do them very hard for 20 minutes be it 2 or 3. Now after some advice I am going to shoot for extending intervals and doing a 220 for two hours. After I hit that goal I will than try to see if my ftp has improved. Than I will give some racing a try. This was a test the waters, re-build year.

I do 210 and 220 all the time now on the bike and while I can hang with some of the folks out there I can not hang with any cat 1, 2s or even 3s for any real distance.

Sorry but your numbers make no sense in my experience. I was willing to give it one more shot but I think I will go back to my thread now.

-js

 

[awilki01]

Originally Posted by An old Guy .

Your problem is that 32mph is not 21mph.

Find a friendlier group. One that rides at 21mph on a 21mph ride.

+1. I hate when a B group rides at the A group pace. When I wanted an easier ride due to training schedule, I have wanted to ride with the C group. But the C group is small and they just catch up to the B group which rides at A group pace. This is why I train alone 99.9% of the time.

 

[dhk2]

Power required for slow/steep climbing is basically proportional to weight, so it's kindof silly to throw around comparison numbers without also citing the weight of the rider and equipment. Old Guy's numbers above (200W for 1500' vertical in 30 minutes) might work for a skinny guy, but I need a good bit more. Here's a calculation for me, hauling up 200 lbs bodyweight, plus 25 lbs equipment (bike, water, shoes,clothes,seat pack).

At all-up weight of 225 lbs, that's 102 kg mass, meaning a force of ~1000 newtons pinning me and the bike to terra firma. Climbing 1500' vertical in 30 mins (1800 seconds) is an average rate of
.83 ft/sec, or .25 meters/sec. Since watts = n-m/sec (how handy is that?), all we have to do is multiply 1000 x .25 to get 250 n-m/sec (watts). To translate to the bike, suggest adding in another 10% to cover drivetrain, rolling, and aero drag losses. (Pick a number....it's what would be needed to cruise on a perfectly flat road aSint your climbing speed). In my example, that 10% factor adds another 25w, for a total of 275watts. That's certainly above my 20 min power, particularly on a hot and humid day after several hours in the saddle.

To get down to Old Guy's more-reasonable power number of only 200 watts, I'd need to weigh only 138 lbs. Lot's of numbers to explain why my 140 lb buddies leave me on the hills.....