Overtraining - Can power output determine?

A power meter should help you diagnose over-reaching when you can't hit the required wattage for your intervals. e.g. if last week you completed 4 x 8 minutes at 300W, and this week you can do only 2.5 intervals at that wattage before it becomes a struggle to maintain, e.g. 280-90W, then you need to rest.

A power meter can make the need to rest more easily identifiable, but you still need to look for other signs. At the moment your mood towards the interval session suggests you're getting stale/fed-up, so it's either time to ease off a little, or else change tac and do a different interval workout if you're not seeing much improvement.

Overtraining/reaching seems to be one of those things where there is no simple diagnosis, even when using a power meter, and you still need to take into account all the signs/symptoms and not overrule them because the PM says so.

TTer -

Thank you for your response.

I wonder if my heart rate monitor overtraining test would help in such circumstances. The one I have is a Polar S810. Basically you lie in bed for 3 mins in the morning and it records your resting heart rate. You then stand up for 3 minutes and it records this interval. Once you've uploaded it to the computer it anaylsis the reading and compares it with past reference values and then gives you a value of 1-8. 1 being well rested and ready for some exertion and 8 being time to take a 2 week cruise and leave the bike well alone.

I guess Armstrong got it right when he said whoever recovers fastest does the best.

I'm sure you know what I mean. There are times when you hit that long 5% hill and your HR is inexcess of 85% yet it feels like a walk in the park. Other days you struggle to reach 70% and even that feels like you are carrying someone up behind you.

Basically, I'm trying to get to the point where percieved exertion is at it's lowest yet heart rate is at it's highest. I guess i'm just looking for a stratergy. Where does one start to look? Is the Training Bible a good start? I've heard good things about it.

You maybe right when you say I could be getting stale. I've been keen at it for the last 10 months putting in no less than 12 hours every week.

Any further input is greatly appreciated.

What does the orthostatic test (that's what it's called) from Polar suggest then Tom? Does that point to fatigue? I know when my legs are tired that any running up stairs or quickly moving around makes me breathe a little harder. Also quickly standing up when tired makes me feel a little lightheaded. So I guess this test will tell you when you're tired, as your heart works harder to normalise blood pressure from the laying down to standing position. But don't you already know this is the case (tired) if you truly listen to your body and listen to all the signs?

I think sometimes we (as cyclists) push ourselves very hard and choose to ignore the warning signs (aches, pains, fatigue, mood, grumpiness, etc..) as we think pushing harder will result in better fitness. In my experience the improvements never come and you dig a hole for yourself which takes a lot of rest to get out of! I personally think you might be doing the same thing, ignoring the signs, and are looking for a diagnosis from an external source (eg. the polar overtraining test, or a power meter). Trust your feelings, they are the perfect measure of over-reaching if you truly do listen to them. When I feel grumpy, moody, feel tired during the day etc.., I mentally think why, whether it's my training, and time for a rest. Question everything. If I'm flipping off lots of motorists in a ride I know I need a couple of days off as my mood is heading downhill. Any further training will make me more grumpy, more tired, and be less effective than a rest, overcompensation (recovery) from the recent effort, then a chance to build on that new level of form.

As an aside, I've recently been training 2-3days for 1 hour (doing a few intervals at TT pace) then taking 2-3 days off completely to recover. After over 3 weeks I'm just as strong as in season when time trialling, can still ride 3.5hours outdoors easily, and am feeling a lot more motivated and rested. This is the off-season and time to experiment, so why not try a few more rest days in your programme so you get back your motivation for training? See how that affects your recovery, your mood, your interest in the interval session. Doing a decent 2-hour ride with a few hard efforts every 3 days at this time of year is plenty to hang onto all of your fitness gains, except top-end racing fitness (which you can easily get back closer to the racing season).

Hope this rambling reply helps :-D

since you guys are on the subject of rest, approx how
many days off the bike and you start to loose fitness
and the benifits gained from training?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by zaskar
since you guys are on the subject of rest, approx how
many days off the bike and you start to loose fitness
and the benifits gained from training?

I find if you take 2 days off you will not lose any fitness at all. 3 days and you maybe just lose the edge a little, though it depends what you have done in the days before the rest. If you've dug yourself a great big hole (ie. 3-4 days of very hard training) then I find 3 days off is needed to recover physically and (more importantly) mentally as getting back onto the bike after just 2 days seems way too short a break after the very hard work. Normally though 2 days off does you a lot of good when training moderately hard (that's most cyclists).

One thing I've found with my recent experiment with block training is that I'm feeling more motivated when doing back-to-back hard days. Previously I rode 6-7 days per week, and tried to ride easily the day before hard intervals but I still felt jaded come interval day. The easy ride after interval day was probably too much to fully recover from the intervals too. Of course we all find it difficult to ride easily enough in the days either side of hard interval days, so I think we might be best served by taking the day off completely (ie. if you can't ride slowly/easily enough, as you should, stay off the bike).

TTer -

Your advice seems to make a get deal of sense to me. I do sometimes find myself getting upset with drivers on some occasions more than others. Normally that is when I'm having a hard day/week/month!!

The advice you gave regarding easy days is well worth noting. I used to think riding at 60-65%MHR for 30mins was too easy. Therefore I started to do 45 mins, then 60, then 1 hour 10 mins. My recovery ride turned into almost a training load. I wouldn't let my heart rate go below 60%, it was much more often I would hear my high zone alarm go off than the low zone. In fact if I heard the low zone alarm go off in a session I would be disappointed with myself.

Just this last week I have said to my self 30-45 mins max each day. and not once do I want to hear the high zone alarm go off. High zone is set at 110bpm (60% max). I don't care if I see 94bmp or even 88 as long as my legs are turning and I'm not being too idle about the whole process.

Staying off the bike for a day is just far too hard work. It just sits there staring at me saying 'come on, how can you not ride today'. Bottom line, I guess I love riding so much I find it hard to leave alone. Sounds like this recovery stuff is working! I'm finding the passion again! Also, cleaning up the diet will probably help. No coffee, Tea or chocolate all this week... groan. withdrawl. I often wonder if sometimes we miss the whole diet thing. Maybe we eat not quiet enough, or even too much - placing undue stress on the body. Maybe we eat just the right amount of calories, yet they are [censored] calories. I'm sure a bowlful of pasta is much better for us than a cadbury's twirl!

Just some thoughts...
Cheers.

Diet for me is another sign of overtraining. When I'm tired I start craving rubbish foods, and I tend to feel really hungry, eat too much, then have trouble digesting it. When I'm fresh and ready to train I don't crave the junk food, and I naturally eat just the right amount.

As for recovery rides I've tended to reduce mine even further, regularly doing just 20mins, often before work. By 20mins my legs feel relaxed and supple, and I feel that I've got all the benefits so why do more? I do these on the turbo or rollers so I don't have to faff around with getting kitted up for the road. By doing it before work on a rest day it also means I can have a night completely off to properly relax, maybe watch a film or something.

tom, I know what you mean with the recovery rides becoming another training session. Whenever I go outdoors I hit hills, so immediately go to 230W+ just to get up them riding at 40 rpm! I have about 8minutes of that in total to get onto decent roads, so venturing outside for a recovery ride is always a training load. As I said before, I also find I can't ride easily enough not to incur more fatigue to the point now where I think a day off or just easy on the turbo is better for limiting fatigue before hard interval days. I have read on your easy days you should let kids and old women on bikes with shopping baskets blow by you!! That may be extreme but it does demonstrate the pace and kind of self-control you need to exert to not 'race' every day.

I find the opposite Markster, diet goes to pot when I'm tired and my appetite is suppressed which only makes me feel worse if I don't eat as I should, rather than how I feel.

tom, I wouldn't be too hard on yourself with diet. Reduce consumption of tea, coffee and chocolate if it's a problem (ie. you are drinking/eating a lot each day), but stopping altogether makes it hard and it's unlikely your will power will let you continue this for long. 1-2 cups of coffee per day are fine. My advice, based on what I have done, is to swap out one item of poor food per week with something more nutritious. For example, don't buy dessert this week, buy fruit. Next week, give the burgers a miss. Week after maybe try to include salad in more of your sandwiches. Little changes like that add up quickly and will transform your diet permanently over a period of 2-3months. Give yourself a pat on the back each week/2weeks you make a change and don't be too hard on yourself. One thing to remember is we follow a healthier lifestyle than 98-99% of the population :-)

The recovery rides is a good suggestion Markster. I normally schedule 30minutes, but as you say, 20 minutes is enough to get your legs warmed up and feeling less stiff. If I don't have time for the recovery rides (very busy days), I just skip them and don't fret over missing them. I consider a complete rest day or an easy 20-30mins on the turbo the same.

Tom, I think your fear of taking a day completely off is typical of a lot of us (myself included). It's hard to believe your not improving with more time on the bike, but the opposite is true. Train hard when you train, then rest completely (or very very easily) on the rest days. It takes time and experience (with the bad results of doing otherwise) to see this does work. If you *knew* your performances you improve with 2 days off the bike each week then hard training on other days, wouldn't you do it?? I love riding too, but racing performance is more important to me, so I learn to live with the days off :-)

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by TTer
Tom, I think your fear of taking a day completely off is typical of a lot of us (myself included). It's hard to believe your not improving with more time on the bike, but the opposite is true. Train hard when you train, then rest completely (or very very easily) on the rest days. It takes time and experience (with the bad results of doing otherwise) to see this does work. If you *knew* your performances you improve with 2 days off the bike each week then hard training on other days, wouldn't you do it??

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by TTer
I love riding too, but racing performance is more important to me, so I learn to live with the days off :-)

Making this mental change led to big improvements for me. I'm now a competitor training to win specific bike races, rather than a cyclist who likes to race. As you say TTer, you learn to live with days off. I've also learned to live with sometimes doing specific turbo workouts indoors despite beautiful weather outside, missing out on club runs on Sunday's, taking breaks from racing mid-season to recover etc. etc. All my cycling (and a lot of my life!) is aimed at racing as well as I can at key events. It's quite obsessive, but isn't that a characteristic of the guys who become champions? It's certainly all worth it when you get to that key event.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by TTer
I find if you take 2 days off you will not lose any fitness at all. 3 days and you maybe just lose the edge a little, though it depends what you have done in the days before the rest. If you've dug yourself a great big hole (ie. 3-4 days of very hard training) then I find 3 days off is needed to recover physically and (more importantly) mentally as getting back onto the bike after just 2 days seems way too short a break after the very hard work. Normally though 2 days off does you a lot of good when training moderately hard (that's most cyclists).

One thing I've found with my recent experiment with block training is that I'm feeling more motivated when doing back-to-back hard days. Previously I rode 6-7 days per week, and tried to ride easily the day before hard intervals but I still felt jaded come interval day. The easy ride after interval day was probably too much to fully recover from the intervals too. Of course we all find it difficult to ride easily enough in the days either side of hard interval days, so I think we might be best served by taking the day off completely (ie. if you can't ride slowly/easily enough, as you should, stay off the bike).

thanks TT, i hate recovery rides besides being boring & slow
they dont seem to help me, so i do find it better to take a day
off rather then ride. the recovery rides just seem to put me
out of my routine, feels harder the next day on effort ride
i hear what your saying about feeling jaded. wow 3 days is
not long i was thinking more like a week! i decided to take 3
off because my last ride wich was almost 5 hours of race effort
i cramped on 1 leg so bad it hurt the next day felt like i was
kicked in my thigh, and i havent felt that in a long time.

some people respond well too easy recovery spins (e.g., 15 to 60 mins at very low power), whereas others don't. Absolute fitness doesn't account for the difference.

Ric

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by TTer
As an aside, I've recently been training 2-3days for 1 hour (doing a few intervals at TT pace) then taking 2-3 days off completely to recover.

I've been following a similar program to this for a few weeks, to get back into training following a decent break to recover from my CTS experience. I've been having sat and sun off, short recovery rides on mon and fri, and some moderate intensity sessions on Tue, wed & thu.

The thing is, when I do the same session on tue and thu at a set power my HR is considerable (>10bpm) higher on the tue. It also feels a little harder on the Tuesday. TTer, do you see a similar thing?

I'm just wondering why it might be. Am I detraining over the four easy days? or is it just a higher HR on the Tuesday because I'm really fresh.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Markster
I've been following a similar program to this for a few weeks...
The thing is, when I do the same session on tue and thu at a set power my HR is considerable (>10bpm) higher on the tue. It also feels a little harder on the Tuesday. TTer, do you see a similar thing?

I think Ric is the one to answer this, but yes I do see something similar though not as pronounced. I am currently doing 3 hard days (for me) back to back, working at TT pace in intervals of 12, 10 and 8 minutes, doing 30-40minutes total work. I think I'm still finding my feet in these intervals and could go a bit harder, or manage 40-45minutes per session. Each session I can maintain the power target for all intervals, and I can match the power over three days. Perceived exertion is about the same, maybe a little higher on the 3rd day, but HR for the same power is about 2-3 beats per day.

I read somewhere that after a hard interval session there is an increase in blood plasma(?) that results in the heart not having to work as hard in the workouts the next day. I suppose an increase in blood plasma/volume of 1% would be enough to reduce heart rate by 2-3 beats for me. Does this make sense Ric?