Overly-Sensitive handling Any ideas?

How long of a stem do you have on the bike? Real short stems can be
very, very twitchy.

How high are the handlebars? Short wtems with high bars can also make
the handling twitchy.

What size bike is it? A bad combination of stem length, bar height,
overall frame size can affect handling. One of the reasons to have a
well fitting bike.

Where is your body weight positioned? Are you way back and have
little weight on the bars? Or are you way forward and have too much
weight on the bars? Either can cause handling to be not right.

How experienced are you at bicycling? Different levels of experience
will interpret handling differently. What seems twitchy to you may
seem just right to someone else.

Just some ideas to think about and look at on your bike.

[email hidden] (Mark) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi All, I have a basically new 3 year old NOS Bianchi Road Bike, with
conventional geometry, and one slightly disappointing quality I notice
about this bike when I ride it, is that it seems a bit overly
sensitive to steering input.

It seems like just the slightest input from me at the bars, and this
bike is all over the place. I don't dare take my hands off the bars
for a second.

It does not exhibit as good stability as I wish it would, and wonder
what causes this? The bike has never been crashed. The frame from all
accounts that I can tell appears straight.

I've searched some tech articles, but cannot currently find anything
relating to stability when riding?

Can anything be done to lessen this "Touchy" effect? I've never had
the Headset apart, and while it seems solid, maybe this should be
broken down, lubed, and re-adjusted? Or is this more likely another
cause, like frame geometry, position of rider on bike, etc? Opinions
would be appreciated, Thanks! Mark

(Mark) said:

I have a basically new 3 year old NOS Bianchi Road Bike, with
conventional geometry, and one slightly disappointing quality I notice
about this bike when I ride it, is that it seems a bit overly
sensitive to steering input.

Can anything be done to lessen this "Touchy" effect? I

Visit your LBS and find out whether the frame and fork are straight,
wheels are centered, and headset is running smoothly.

If there is nothing wrong with the frame, fork, or headset, fatter
tires are a good first resort for adding a smidgen of rolling inertia,
gyroscopic stability, steering trail, and ride smoothness.

A longer fork is a further measure you can take, but shouldn't be
necessary. If you crave a stabler ride, a road racing type bike is
probably not for you. If you are previously accustomed to a
motorcycle or a balloon-tire cruiser, you should probably just give
yourself some time to readjust to the more sensitive equilibrium of a
lightweight bicycle.

Chalo Colina

Hi Russell/all,

So, you are saying that a short Bar Stem Raised quite a bit will cause
this effect?

This was something I did do recently, was I did raise the handlebar
Quill Stem about 1", as I thought it would offer a slightly more
comfortable ride.

I am not at the stem limit, but probably a 1/2" from it though. Yes,
before I did this, it did seem a bit more stable, so, I think you may
have found the culprit.

The bike is a 57cm, and I'm 5'-8" in height. I have owned about 8-9
road bikes in all, so this isn't my first experience with road bikes,
or 700x23 tires

I think first thing I'll try, is lowering the Stem 1" once again to
see what that does?

One other thing I do notice is that the dish/offset on my front wheel
seems ever so slightly off to one side. Can this also affect
handling? I imagine that it might? I've had the back wheel trued,
and spokes re-tensioned, as it was really quite bad from the factory,
with horribly loose spokes.

The front wasn't as bad as the back, but for the small fee, and the
great work my LBS does, maybe it's time to let them true-tension the
front also? The bike has about 600mi on it. My experience with road
bikes is not too bad, but was better 20 years ago I'm afraid. Just
coming back from a long layoff.Mark

[email hidden] (Russell Seaton) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

How long of a stem do you have on the bike? Real short stems can be
very, very twitchy.

How high are the handlebars? Short wtems with high bars can also make
the handling twitchy.

What size bike is it? A bad combination of stem length, bar height,
overall frame size can affect handling. One of the reasons to have a
well fitting bike.

Where is your body weight positioned? Are you way back and have
little weight on the bars? Or are you way forward and have too much
weight on the bars? Either can cause handling to be not right.

How experienced are you at bicycling? Different levels of experience
will interpret handling differently. What seems twitchy to you may
seem just right to someone else.

Just some ideas to think about and look at on your bike.

[email hidden] (Mark) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi Russell/all,

So, you are saying that a short Bar Stem Raised quite a bit will cause
this effect?

A really short stem raised really high will make handling twitchy. I
know someone with a 5cm Nitto Technomic raised to the maximum and the
handling is twitchy if hands are off the bars. But with hands on the
bars, the bike was ridden across the USA and has ridden many week long
rides since. So even not ideal stem height and stem length can be
managed well enough.

Quoted message said:

This was something I did do recently, was I did raise the handlebar
Quill Stem about 1", as I thought it would offer a slightly more
comfortable ride.

I am not at the stem limit, but probably a 1/2" from it though. Yes,
before I did this, it did seem a bit more stable, so, I think you may
have found the culprit.

You can try lowering it to see what happens. But I have my TTT
Synthesis quill stem at its maximum and handling is fine on my 58cm
bike. Stem is 12 cm extension.

Quoted message said:

The bike is a 57cm, and I'm 5'-8" in height. I have owned about 8-9
road bikes in all, so this isn't my first experience with road bikes,
or 700x23 tires

57cm frame and 5'8" tall? I would guess you are on about the largest
frame you can ride. Just guessing. I am also guessing the stem is
not long. And it was raised to get the overall reach closer. You may
have a bad combination of slightly too big of a frame, slightly too
high of bars, slightly too short of stem, and you being stretched out
to your limit trying to hold onto the bars.

Are you riding with your hands on the tops a majority of the time
because the hoods are quite a stretch? If so then the length of your
bike's rudder, so to speak, is only the stem extension length. While
riding on the hoods, the bike's rudder length is the combined length
of the stem extension and the bar reach. Handling will be twitchier
with your hands on the tops instead of further out on the hoods.

Quoted message said:

I think first thing I'll try, is lowering the Stem 1" once again to
see what that does?

I would guess you will be even more stretched out than you currently
are and handling would suffer.

Quoted message said:

One other thing I do notice is that the dish/offset on my front wheel
seems ever so slightly off to one side. Can this also affect
handling? I imagine that it might? I've had the back wheel trued,
and spokes re-tensioned, as it was really quite bad from the factory,
with horribly loose spokes.

I doubt if this matters any. I have ridden many wheels that were not
true and never noticed any change in handling. I've broken spoes on
the back and had the rear wheel wobbling side to side a half inch or
more and never noticed a change in handling. Loss of efficiency from
having the wheel wobble so much. I currently ride a front wheel that
is about 3mm out of dish. Its a boutique wheel and would require a
fair amount of effort to dish it so I just ride the wheel. Its true
but out of dish 3mm. Seems to ride just fine.

Quoted message said:

The front wasn't as bad as the back, but for the small fee, and the
great work my LBS does, maybe it's time to let them true-tension the
front also? The bike has about 600mi on it. My experience with road
bikes is not too bad, but was better 20 years ago I'm afraid. Just
coming back from a long layoff.Mark

Have your LBS true the front wheel too. Can't hurt and might help. I
doubt you will notice any difference but its nice to have your bike
working well. If its been 20 years since you rode a road bike it
could be you aren't bending as well and you need the overall reach to
be shorter now. And you may need a shorter reach bike.

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Russell Seaton) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

How long of a stem do you have on the bike? Real short stems can be
very, very twitchy.

How high are the handlebars? Short wtems with high bars can also make
the handling twitchy.

What size bike is it? A bad combination of stem length, bar height,
overall frame size can affect handling. One of the reasons to have a
well fitting bike.

Where is your body weight positioned? Are you way back and have
little weight on the bars? Or are you way forward and have too much
weight on the bars? Either can cause handling to be not right.

How experienced are you at bicycling? Different levels of experience
will interpret handling differently. What seems twitchy to you may
seem just right to someone else.

Just some ideas to think about and look at on your bike.

Mark said:

Hi Russell/all,

So, you are saying that a short Bar Stem Raised quite a bit will cause
this effect?

This was something I did do recently, was I did raise the handlebar
Quill Stem about 1", as I thought it would offer a slightly more
comfortable ride.

I am not at the stem limit, but probably a 1/2" from it though. Yes,
before I did this, it did seem a bit more stable, so, I think you may
have found the culprit.

The bike is a 57cm, and I'm 5'-8" in height. I have owned about 8-9
road bikes in all, so this isn't my first experience with road bikes,
or 700x23 tires

I think first thing I'll try, is lowering the Stem 1" once again to
see what that does?

One other thing I do notice is that the dish/offset on my front wheel
seems ever so slightly off to one side. Can this also affect
handling? I imagine that it might? I've had the back wheel trued,
and spokes re-tensioned, as it was really quite bad from the factory,
with horribly loose spokes.

The front wasn't as bad as the back, but for the small fee, and the
great work my LBS does, maybe it's time to let them true-tension the
front also? The bike has about 600mi on it. My experience with road
bikes is not too bad, but was better 20 years ago I'm afraid. Just
coming back from a long layoff.Mark

Hi, when you lower the stem, if it is hard to reach the hoods, try
angling the bars upward. That might help a little, not for stability,
but for reach.

Life is Good!
Jeff

Perhaps the issue is (for some reason, bent fork, maybe?) trail. See

http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/trail.html

(Russell Seaton) said:

A really short stem raised really high will make handling twitchy. I
know someone with a 5cm Nitto Technomic raised to the maximum and the
handling is twitchy if hands are off the bars.

Interesting. I have never really looked into the physics of bike
handling, so it is counter-intuitive to me that the stem can affect
handling when hands are off the bars. Can someone explain how
this works?

Jim Smith said:

(Russell Seaton) said:

A really short stem raised really high will make handling twitchy. I
know someone with a 5cm Nitto Technomic raised to the maximum and the
handling is twitchy if hands are off the bars.

Interesting. I have never really looked into the physics of bike
handling, so it is counter-intuitive to me that the stem can affect
handling when hands are off the bars. Can someone explain how
this works?

Dear Jim,

Bicycle handling is a dark and bloody mystery, but if the
farther the mass of the handlebars is from where things
happen, the more likely they are to vibrate, oscillate, and
generally make a nuisance of themselves.

In a current thread, Rick Onanian confesses that his bicycle
is shimmying alarmingly after he reaches 15 mph and lets go
of the handlebars. The aero-bars sticking out on the front
of his handlebars may be the culprit.

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

In a current thread, Rick Onanian confesses that his bicycle
is shimmying alarmingly after he reaches 15 mph and lets go
of the handlebars. The aero-bars sticking out on the front
of his handlebars may be the culprit.

Or, it could be the tall stem, as implicated here. Or, a combination
of both. Or, the any combination of those issues with other
issues...

My question was just if the troubleshooting of said shimmy works the
same way as the troubleshooting of high-speed shimmy, which has been
discussed to death here, and which I can find oodles of information
on with google groups. The non-resounding answer was "yes".
--
Rick Onanian

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Jim Smith said:

(Russell Seaton) said:

A really short stem raised really high will make handling twitchy. I
know someone with a 5cm Nitto Technomic raised to the maximum and the
handling is twitchy if hands are off the bars.

Interesting. I have never really looked into the physics of bike
handling, so it is counter-intuitive to me that the stem can affect
handling when hands are off the bars. Can someone explain how
this works?

Dear Jim,

Bicycle handling is a dark and bloody mystery, but if the
farther the mass of the handlebars is from where things
happen, the more likely they are to vibrate, oscillate, and
generally make a nuisance of themselves.

In a current thread, Rick Onanian confesses that his bicycle
is shimmying alarmingly after he reaches 15 mph and lets go
of the handlebars. The aero-bars sticking out on the front
of his handlebars may be the culprit.

Carl Fogel

Hi Carl/All;
Two days ago, after starting this thread, I decided to remove front
Mavic wheel, and take it in to the LBS to be trued/re-tensioned.
While this was being done, I came home and removed Fork for Headset
Bearing Re-Lube, and adjustment, and did lower the Quill Stem about
1/2" (Almost back to where it originally was, which was very low). It
is a bit better now, but still is not as stable as I wish it would be.

It was beneficial going over the Headset, as Lube was virtually
non-existant, and dried out. Luckily, it appears no apparent damage
has occured, and this strengthens my thoughts even more about how
factory built bikes essentially need a complete teardown/lube from day
1.

I pray my BB doesn't look that way.

While I didn't buy the bike from the LBS, I asked the LBS owner if I
could bring the bike in, and help me check over bike fit adjustments
for myself. I'm thinking also, that possibly, my saddle fore/aft
position may be off slightly, and this could be affecting balance
weight between the front/rear wheels? They'll know for sure. Mark

Jim Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(Russell Seaton) said:

A really short stem raised really high will make handling twitchy. I
know someone with a 5cm Nitto Technomic raised to the maximum and the
handling is twitchy if hands are off the bars.

Interesting. I have never really looked into the physics of bike
handling, so it is counter-intuitive to me that the stem can affect
handling when hands are off the bars. Can someone explain how
this works?

The bike I know has the bars very, very high. A Nitto Technomic at
the maximum line. A 5cm extension. And the frame is a 47cm or
something. So even with the hands off the bars, the weight of the
bars and brakes are very high on a very, very short stem. Any minor
undulation in the road. Any blade of grass on the road. And all of
that bar/shifter weight way up there will move and affect handling.

To test your intuition, take the bars and stem completely off a bike
and try riding it. No handed of course. I bet you will discover that
the bike needs a certain amount of weight at a certain height and
forward extension to ride stable. With no weight to balance the front
wheel and fork, handling would not be good. Somewhat similar to the
bike I am thinking of. All of the weight is directly above the
steerer and is very high. The natural stability of the bike is
affected.

[email hidden] (Mark) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

The bike is a 57cm, and I'm 5'-8" in height. I have owned about 8-9
road bikes in all, so this isn't my first experience with road bikes,
or 700x23 tires

From this alone it sounds like you should be riding a 48-53 frame,
depending upon the top tube length. Why are you riding a bike this
large?

Hi Steven, But from this alone, why would this give a bike
instability?

Why would there be a difference in stability if the bike was 48cm, or
61cm? (Provided saddle height was adjusted so I could reach the
pedals?)

In fact, wouldn't a larger frame, which generally also has a longer
wheelbase be more stable at straight line speed?

I have on occasion ridden road bikes that were way too large for me
(60-61cm), yet they exhibited super stability, where I could ride
hands free for miles if I chose. Mark

[email hidden] (Woogoogle) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Mark) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

The bike is a 57cm, and I'm 5'-8" in height. I have owned about 8-9
road bikes in all, so this isn't my first experience with road bikes,
or 700x23 tires

From this alone it sounds like you should be riding a 48-53 frame,
depending upon the top tube length. Why are you riding a bike this
large?

[email hidden] (Mark) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi Steven, But from this alone, why would this give a bike
instability?

Why would there be a difference in stability if the bike was 48cm, or
61cm? (Provided saddle height was adjusted so I could reach the
pedals?)

Because to fit a big frame, you will have to move the saddle way
forward, and put on a super short stem so you can reach the bars.
Frame fit means reach to the bars too. And as I stated above, a super
short stem, to make it possible for you to reach the bars, will be
twitchy.

If you are so stretched out to get your hands on the bars, you will
likely not have the best control of the bike.

Quoted message said:

In fact, wouldn't a larger frame, which generally also has a longer
wheelbase be more stable at straight line speed?

I have on occasion ridden road bikes that were way too large for me
(60-61cm), yet they exhibited super stability, where I could ride
hands free for miles if I chose. Mark

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Woogoogle) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Mark) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

The bike is a 57cm, and I'm 5'-8" in height. I have owned about 8-9
road bikes in all, so this isn't my first experience with road bikes,
or 700x23 tires

From this alone it sounds like you should be riding a 48-53 frame,
depending upon the top tube length. Why are you riding a bike this
large?

Hi Folks, I wish to deeply thank all of you who have given me good
advice, and things to consider, and check, You have all helped me
greatly, and I have solved the problem.

It was indeed the Stock Handlebar Quill Stem (90mm long) that I had
adjusted a bit too high.

At first, I thought the slight raising of the Stem would be a benefit
to a slightly more comfortable ride, and that it would look a bit
nicer too.

Little did I know by doing this, that this would destroy the
straight-line stability of the bike. I'm back to where is was, and
thinking now about how other bikes are (looking at the pro's bikes on
TV lately), nobody has stems sticking up really high, (Even though
they're mostly Threadless Stems) and now I understand the reason
behind this.

Taking a 20 mi ride earlier this evening, the bike tracks like it's on
rails, and I'm very happy with the results, and how it rides now.

Thank you all again for teaching me, and helping me understand some
bike basics, which I've seem to forgotten.

Also too many thanks to the poster for the thought about perhaps
slightly raising my Brake Levers on the bars for a bit better comfort
when holding by the brake Lever Hoods.
I see just about 100% of the TDF pros have thier levers placed quite
high on the bars, ans I can imagine that there is better
fuction/comfort with them this way.

I'll probably raise mine a bit next time I do a Bar Tape Change. Mark

(Mark) said:

greatly, and I have solved the problem.

It's good to hear that. I'm closing in on my problem, too.

Quoted message said:

At first, I thought the slight raising of the Stem would be a benefit
to a slightly more comfortable ride, and that it would look a bit
nicer too.

Apart from the handling, was it more comfortable? If so, you may
still have options for getting your bars higher.

Quoted message said:

thinking now about how other bikes are (looking at the pro's bikes on
TV lately), nobody has stems sticking up really high, (Even though
they're mostly Threadless Stems) and now I understand the reason
behind this.

You're wrong. They have the bars low for aerodynamic and style
reasons. They have custom-fit and often custom-fabricated frames,
designed for them and the way they want to ride. If they want high
handlebars, they can have the bike built to handle well with high
bars.

I am not a pro. You probably also are not. Our needs, bodies,
abilities, budgets, and knowledge differ from those of the pros.

Quoted message said:

Thank you all again for teaching me, and helping me understand some
bike basics, which I've seem to forgotten.

Hang around here, and you'll feel like an expert pretty soon.

Quoted message said:

Also too many thanks to the poster for the thought about perhaps
slightly raising my Brake Levers on the bars for a bit better comfort
when holding by the brake Lever Hoods.

Do you find similar comfort as you had with the stem raised? Another
option is to rotate the bars, bringing the hoods up and also
changing the angle of the hoods and drops. Either way, the angle of
the hoods changes, though.

Quoted message said:

I see just about 100% of the TDF pros have thier levers placed quite
high on the bars, ans I can imagine that there is better
fuction/comfort with them this way.

Maybe. Probably optimized entirely for speed.
--
Rick Onanian