Over my head or form issue?

A couple of thoughts:

- There's no perfect cadence and you're not way out of the norm to be riding around 100 rpm on a group ride but spinning crazy isn't a great solution either especially on a paceline ride where presumably there aren't a lot of attacks to counter. It wouldn't hurt to experiment with different gearing and both HR and RPE tend to go up at very high cadences so you might find it a bit more comfortable to roll a slightly larger gear when you're working cooperatively with other folks. In an aggressive race situation I'd tend towards selecting slightly smaller gears in anticipation of upcoming attacks and preference to respond with leg speed instead of brute force and too many out of the saddle efforts which can cook you fast. But in the case you describe it won't hurt to see how you do in both bigger and smaller gears. But in the end as long as your RPE isn't sky high in some gears vs others then yes, a watt is a watt.

- On that subject it's pretty clear from the data you posted that yeah you were out with a fast group of folks relative to your current fitness. In a cooperative paceline without a lot of attacks you wouldn't expect to rack up more time up in L7 than L3 and L4 and almost as much time at L6 and above as L3, L4, L5 combined. That was a hard ride and to survive at that pace you'll want to keep working on your FTP. In the meantime you might want to let the other riders know where you stand and sit in a lot more or avoid taking any pulls at all. Maybe you're already doing that, but most training groups would rather you sat at the back (and let other riders fill so you don't interfere with their rotation) than have you take a few pulls and get shelled out the back. A race is different but presumably this is winter training and not a race.

- Not enough info to diagnose your pedaling wobble, but it could be bike fit including things like cleat positioning or leg length discrepancies or pronation / supination issues that might benefit from some cleat shimming. It might also be technique related but there's debate as to how much technique work on 'smoother' pedaling will translate to more power. Yeah there's a century of cycling tradition that assumes that smoother rounder circles is always better but it's debatable at best. I'd start by double checking everything you can related to bike fit and cleat positioning (including things like do you ride high float pedals?) and then if you really want to work on pedaling form you can Google 'one legged drills' or other stuff on the subject as there are plenty of folks that believe in that kind of work... I'm just not one of them.

-Dave

Dave-many thanks. I tried to go up front and take my lumps. Once I got there, kaboom, and suddenly the back of the paceline seemed to come up very quickly. Last winter I made significant progress on the trainer, and I'm hoping to repeat the progress. My hope is that with one group ride, and a couple of hour-long sessions plus strength training, I'll see some gains before it gets really cold and I'm either inside all the time or riding solo for a couple of hours. Some weeks there are a lot of racers (this seemed to have been one of those weeks). Other weeks it's a bit more humane.

The wobble is caused, I think, by excessive tightness/weakness in the hips that I'm working on through foam roller, yoga, strength training, etc. I wondered whether that could be helped through riding drills; perhaps, but it seems unlikely. When I lift my leg up, the tightness in the hip/adductor just brings it to the side. I'm not sure that's something that rollers could fix. (there is plenty of float in the cleats, thankfully).

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by hrumpole [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG] ... I'm not sure that's something that rollers could fix. (there is plenty of float in the cleats, thankfully). ...

The way that rollers 'fix' an issue like that is that they feel so damn unstable that you either tune into ways to smooth things out or fall off the rollers a lot. Other than that there's not a lot of magic to rollers and pedaling form. If you're pretty certain that hip tightness is a big part of the issue then you might also double check your saddle height. Appropriate saddle height should take into account a rider's flexibility and even if you fit the published formulas you could be a tad high if it's forcing you to rock during your pedal stroke. But I still wouldn't rule out cleat and shimming issues and have someone double check for leg length differences as that could easily be related to both the wobble and one sided hip tightness.

Plenty of float in the cleats is a double edged sword. On one hand a lot of float can reduce stress on your knees and ankles due to cleat placement issues or flexibility/range of motion issues and that's generally good. OTOH, a lot of float can lead someone with unsolved issues to flail their feet all over the place and track their legs in funky patterns as they pedal as high float pedals don't do much to constrain excess motion. I ride Speedplay's myself so in general I'm a big fan of float but luckily my feet track pretty straight lines regardless of whether I ride floating or completely fixed pedals. One good thing about free floating pedals is it can serve as an indicator as to when you've got any positioning issues sorted out. Back in the clips and straps and fixed cleat days there was an early version of the Fit Kit tool that basically was a free floating clip and strap style pedal with two long indicator rods sticking out away from the bike, one attached to the pedal spindle another attached to a relatively free floating cage assembly. Fit techs would adjust the position and rotation of your cleats in an attempt to minimize wobble shown by the rods and then you'd remove to tool and ride your normal pedals. So in a way free floating modern pedals allow you to do that without the extra tool. I'd work on flexibility, double and triple check things like cleat placement and rotation and things like leg length or pronation issues and shim or Lemond wedge as necessary and then see if your wobble during the pedal stroke can be reduced over time.

And on the group rides consider taking every other or every third pull if you pull at all on the faster days and always remember to stop your pull BEFORE you run out of gas so you have some juice left for the difficult bit of reconnecting to the tail end of the line. For some folks that means a few pedal strokes and off the front but that's better than getting dropped and better than slowing down the whole group as your pull gets slower and slower. The good news is that everyone was there at some time and if you stick with it you'll get both faster and more skilled and hang longer with more margin for error.

Good luck,
-Dave

Just to add to Dave's comments, you can a read up on bike positioning stuff here, lots of handy reading material:
http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/articles/

also, with pacelines, if you are struggling and decide it's better to sit on and not take the rotation, then it's WAY easier to sit on the rider that's immediately behind the rotation and also not taking turns, if there is anyone doing this. If they are good at what they do, they will constantly be moving (slowly and predictably) from left to right to left etc always getting the best draft position depending on the position of the riders at the back who are rotating. Just follow their wheel and you will find it much easier. Eventually fitness will come and you can join in for a few pulls occasionally.

Whenever I am running a group and we have a rider or two not quite up to riding in the paceline, I sit on the back and give the paceline riders guidance from behind, talking them through the changeovers if needed, explaining how to minimise their effort and reduce the need to surge, while also having the weaker riders sit on my wheel as I will smooth out the variations in effort for them.

Many thanks for the link to Steve Hogg's website. There's a ton of information there, and if the PT does not work out then I'm going to look into making adjustments. I'm less convinced that it's the fit vs flexibility only for the reason that the guy that fitted me to my bike made changes that resulted in significant increases in both comfort and power, and is very knowledgable. He uses the angles as a guide, and then takes it from there based on experience-a mixture of art and science, if you like. It could be that there have been changes to my body that would require fit adjustments, but I'll take a shot at the body first.

Last night, on the trainer, I did a 20 min interval on one of the Sufferfest videos (The Hunted) and attempted to hold the suggested onscreen cadence (80), and found maintaining the required power (FTP) easier than when pedaling more quickly. I experienced over a 10% gain from the 2x20 set I did last week when I tried to keep the cadence up around 100. Some of this could be due to temperature, getting used to being indoors again, and a bunch of other factors. Other causes could be recovering from a basically untrained state again and gaining fitness back quickly due to the effects of the Sunday hammerfest. Nonetheless, the results were so encouraging I'm really looking forward to the next indoor workout, as I typically see about 10-20w more power out on the road for the same distance. And it's still November :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

But I still wouldn't rule out cleat and shimming issues and have someone double check for leg length differences as that could easily be related to both the wobble and one sided hip tightness.

If this is the selected path it is critical the individual doing the measuring is fully qualified and has a deep level of expertise - a level 2 or 3 USAC Coaching license alone will not suffice. Shims are great for "actual" bone length discrepancies, however many postural issues, especially around the pelvis, are created by overly strong or tight muscles vs. overstretched or weak muscles. Inserting shims in this case is pretty much a garantee that the problem will not resolve itself. I'm sure there are many shimming success stories but last season had a team mate thwarted by excessive shimming under one cleat only to have more aches and pains surface down the road. Needless to say once the shims dissappeared so did his issues. An illiac crest riding high on one side or another could be symptomatic of overly shortened or tight musculature and may create the illusion of a bone length discrepancy between the two sides. It may well be, but best confirmed by someone qualified who has both the expertise along with the proper equipment to measure distances between bony landmarks correctly. Just something to think about.

I personally tend to control my effort by controlling my cadence, during a hard effort I can and will spin a gear up to 100 rpms until I feel like I need to shift; although I am spinning a big gear and am making a hard effort. Dave's comments about being in a gear that you can really spin up fast is real important in both a race and a fast group ride. However, if there are times when I can and/or need to sit in to recover, I tend to shift to a gear where I can maintain pace and still keep a 80-85 rpm cadence. I find that I am much better off in a bigger gear spinning less than in a smaller gear spinning more, and most of the time when I am to this point I either am confident that nothing is going to happen that I can't cover without to much trouble or I just simply am to the point where recovery is more important because either way if something happens I am screwed....

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by hrumpole [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

So this is the summary from a group ride I went on this week.

I was shot out of the back twice--most notably on a paceline stretch in the first hour where I just could not keep up. I manage to generally keep up during the second hour, as the ride tends to get a bit more laid back. This would suggest to me that I'm in over my head (which is OK), but I have a couple of questions.

First, in the paceline (just before entering OTBistan), one of the more seasoned riders suggested I dropped two gears and raised the resistance, and slowed my cadence down. I had thought that power is power and it doesn't matter. Is that true? Should I be training @ FTP at a lower cadence? (When trying to keep up with the paceline, I try to stay between 95-105. Similarly, with the compact, I don't have to have my cadence drop below 90 on most of the hills around here.).

Second, there's a (significant) wobble in my pedal stroke that it was suggested that rollers would smooth out and I'd get power back. Rollers are out of the question; I have a trainer and the wife has just about hit her limit on cycling expenditures. I've heard it described as "choppy" by another one of my riding buddies (who can smoke me). How do you drill form on a trainer? Slow the intervals down? Or is it simply a flexibility problem that can't be addressed while on the bike?

It is always a power issue.

But the suggestions that you should change gears or that there is a wobble in your pedal stroke are mind games.

Cadence is personal. I average 85 or so. But I don't shift much. My 19 in the back is comfortable all day long. The 50 in front is comfortable on the hills until the end of the day. Then I use the 34. My cadence is all over the place. Down to the 50s on the hills and up to 120 on the flats. It is hard to accelerate from a low cadence on hills, but I can live it. But cadence is personal. Experiment with different cadences and see what works for you.

I doubt if anyone has a good pedal stroke. Most people don't have a consistent pedal stroke. I usually just push down. From about 1 o'clock to 5. But as my cadence gets higher my stroke changes. Over 120 cadence and I am pushing forward at 10 o'clock then rotating downward until 4 o'clock. In both cases there is little pressure (either up or down) on my rising foot. I am sure my rising foot wobbles all over the place.

---

Unless you are a pro you have a lot of room to increase your power output. Then you will be able to keep up. If your cadence or form bother you, work on them. If they bother other people, don't worry about them.

After 2 threshold/SST sessions last week, I went out again resolved to lower the cadence and try to keep up--instead of heading to 100-105, I tried to stay between 85-95. The group may have been more merciful this week, but I managed to keep up on the flat this week (only to be dropped once we reached the climb at the end). That's OK-I was not alone. Good news: lowering the cadence made it easier, and I added another ten miles at the end of the ride because I felt good. I even got dropped once and caught up (thanks to a little help from a stoplight and hammering up certain hills). I have no idea if it actually was faster, as my Garmin calculated my average speed at 55mph (everything else came out OK).

Only bad news was some knee pain on the right side which I've had once or twice, but seems to work itself out with more riding. Core strength and flexibility are improving (slowly), so we'll see how it turns out.

In order to be able to push the pace, I'll have to raise 5 minute power, as the longest climbs on this route are about a mile. That can come later. This week, more FTP/SST. It would be fun to be able to force the pace occasionally. In some ways, I wish I could use the trainer in the summer. I'd forgotten how efficient it is.

Quoted post said:

...In order to be able to push the pace, I'll have to raise 5 minute power, as the longest climbs on this route are about a mile. That can come later....

The good news is that it will likely come anyway as long as you continue raising your FTP. IME, both personally and with the athletes I've worked with five minute power has always risen after extended periods of SST/L4 work even when no focused VO2 Max work was performed. IOW, folks do a set of profile tests including a 5 minute test, several months of SST/L4 work later they retest and in addition to seeing higher long interval power invariably their 5 minute power has increased as well. There's a lot of overlap in these systems and focused training on one system typically benefits the adjacent systems as well. Not to mention raising that sustainable power usually gets you to the base of the make or break short climb with a little less fatigue which always helps.

Sure, if you've taken FTP pretty far or you're doing specific training as final preparation for specific events that will draw heavily on VO2 Max power in the 3 to 6 minute range then some dedicated VO2 Max training makes a lot of sense. But since it's December and I suspect you don't have events like that coming up soon it's nice to know that solid work on sustainable power typically yields some nice results in shorter duration power as well.

-Dave
P.S. That slight knee pain is another clue that you may have unresolved cleat issues. The force difference for generating the same power at 85 rpm vs. 100 rpm isn't all that substantial especially when you consider that even at very high sustained cycling power (e.g. in the 300-400 watt range) the pedal forces are typically a small fraction of body weight that you carry around all day. But feeling some knee soreness with those increased forces is a clue that you may have an alignment issue that could benefit from attention to your shoe/cleat/pedal system. BTW, I strongly agree with the advice above that if you decide to explore shimming or canting you have that work done by a very experienced fitter as it's easy to make the situation worse.

Another beating, but I feel much better this week. 10 and 20 min metrics are creeping up. keeping the cadence down definitely helps the power delivery, even when accounting for raising ftp by 5 percent from last week. And the knee pain didn't show up until over two hours in, so it may be just a function of re-acclimation to the movements. I think I ride better in the cold for some reason...

Zone Description Low High Time Z1 Active Recovery 0 115 1:17:40 Z2 Endurance 115 157 17:16 Z3 Tempo 157 189 15:49 Z4 Threshold 189 220 15:47 Z5 VO2Max 220 252 13:04 Z6 Anaerobic 252 315 18:44 Z7 Neuromuscular 315 MAX 17:35

I have had the same issues with riding in a group above my level and one of the reasons my training has become much more refined. It makes me wonder if your form on the bike is always an issue or is it only an issue when riding with this group or when the intensity is really high.

When I was in the similar situation and riding above my level trying my best not to get dropped I also received a number of comments from veterans of the group about my form on the bike, cadence and gear use. But to be honest for me the bad form was really more to do with being in survival mode and trying my best to hang on. On those rides I also had a good bit of time above L4. I can only say for me that when I was in survival mode that my mind is not on form, but do whatever it takes to keep up and there was no real mental focus on form. I would be switching gears, cadence and all sorts of things which I can imagine would look crazy to the onlookers of the group. I can say there were many times I would be desperate for a drink of water, but scared to reach down and get the bottle because I was just a second away from being spit out the back of the pack.

Now that my fitness has improved and my sustainable power is probably much better than most in my group I feel that my form, pedal stroke and general feel on the bike has improved. Plus no one is making any comments about my form, cadence or gear use.

Even though this is from a different sport it may still apply in cycling. I was reading an interview from a well known strength coach and it was a general observation about squat form or technique. I paraphrase that his response that even world class lifters have bad form when doing a maximum lift. I know that my squat technique was one of the best around, but as I approached my maximum weight the form had some imperfections.

Could it be that cyclists have potential for bad form on the bike when riding above their level or at a high intensity level?

I do not want to discount bike fit or a lot of the advice given here, but being that I had similar issues and mine have somewhat disappeared with my fitness improving to the level of the group that it makes me think about form as one is riding above level. Now I can imagine that if I were to step up to riding with a bunch of Cat level racers my bad form would appear again as I return to survival mode and try to hang on with riding above my FT.

Please note that I am not giving advice. I was just thinking outloud about my situation that seemed to be similar.

On a side note I do a lot of solo training now because I could not improve with riding with that group and always riding above my level. Trying to ride with a group above my level left me in a recovery hole to a point that I could not train consistently or for several days following. I am not suggesting this, but it is what I had to do to improve.

@felt:
That's a fair point. Bikescore for these rides (e.g, TSS) is in mid-high 200s, and if I add miles, I'm up around 300. At the moment, I'm only doing that ride, plus 2 trainer sessions a week of an hour to 80 min that target L4, and then some strength training. I always take Mondays off, and am going to continue to do so until Bikescore/TSS for those rides is in the low-mid 2s and I plateau. I know that when one of the indicators (I forget the name of it) goes below -40, it's time for me to rest/back off as when I went down there last winter, I managed to get sick. CTL seems to be rising @ about 5 per week, which I've read is within the realm of reason, and the 10 and 20 min power numbers are trending up. For the moment, it feels like I'm doing the right things.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Could it be that cyclists have potential for bad form on the bike when riding above their level or at a high intensity level?

Yes, and the same holds true for any activity that requires coordination. Folks who practice tequnique intensive martial arts like aikido, judo, and juijistu know that doing back to back classes are the best way to produce an injury as the akemi (the landing part) which is a very coordinated movement cannot be done as safely once tired. When I used to ski, accidents from sloppy tequnique were more likely to happen in the later part of the day. We usually equate coordination on the bike to just turning the cranks but once exhausted, it's easy to see the mechanics of this basic movement fly out the window. On the bike it's probably most noticeable when out of the saddle climbing as this requires a bit more finesse to do smoothely and efficiently. If approaching redline too quickly the feeling of up and down unlubricated pistons quickly replaces any smooth pedaling, and the harmoniuos marriage of upper and lower body orchestras.

PS a good time to attack is when riders around you start to exhibit sloppy technique after high output. Some folks say it's folly to attack on the descent, but take a look at Sean Kelly's win over Argentin at Milan San Remo, a particularly technical descent after the climb up the Poggio. These things are particularly tricky when swimming in a pool of lactate. Being Sean kelly probably doesn't hurt either [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by danfoz [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Yes, and the same holds true for any activity that requires coordination. ..

+1 on this and Felt's thoughts above, when we get pushed to our limits simple motions can become very difficult and we get sloppy fast.

Quoted post said:

...I do not want to discount bike fit...

On a related note, we spend a lot of time talking about bike 'fit' which is clearly important but not nearly as much time talking about posture and how we hold ourselves on the bike. They're related but not the same thing and during times of stress our bike posture tends to go out the window with things like losing the forward pelvic tilt on the saddle, creeping up to the tip of the saddle both leading to a hunch backed and cramped up riding position which can hinder breathing, puts us up higher into the wind and is often a sign that we're close to blowing up. As Danfoz noted, a great time to attack if you see this in others 🙂

Anyway, both fit and posture are important and the latter usually takes some conscious thought as even if the contact points of the bike are well adjusted it's not a given that we'll always sit on the bike in the most efficient ways...

-Dave

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Could it be that cyclists have potential for bad form on the bike when riding above their level or at a high intensity level?

There are two schools of thought about training and racing. The old school was train hard so racing feels easy. The modern school is train easy.

A benefit of the old school was that you put in ehough time at high effort and when tired that form was maintained in high efforts and when tired.

On the other hand poor form is better than no form. And regardless of training sometimes that is the choice one is left with.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by hrumpole [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

First, in the paceline (just before entering OTBistan), one of the more seasoned riders suggested I dropped two gears and raised the resistance, and slowed my cadence down. I had thought that power is power and it doesn't matter. Is that true? Should I be training @ FTP at a lower cadence? (When trying to keep up with the paceline, I try to stay between 95-105. SImilarly, with the compact, I don't have to have my cadence drop below 90 on most of the hills around here.).

Second, there's a (significant) wobble in my pedal stroke that it was suggested that rollers would smooth out and I'd get power back. Rollers are out of the question; I have a trainer and the wife has just about hit her limit on cycling expenditures. I've heard it described as "choppy" by another one of my riding buddies (who can smoke me). How do you drill form on a trainer? Slow the intervals down? Or is it simply a flexibility problem that can't be addressed while on the bike?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by hrumpole [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG] The wobble is caused, I think, by excessive tightness/weakness in the hips that I'm working on through foam roller, yoga, strength training, etc. I wondered whether that could be helped through riding drills; perhaps, but it seems unlikely. When I lift my leg up, the tightness in the hip/adductor just brings it to the side. I'm not sure that's something that rollers could fix. (there is plenty of float in the cleats, thankfully).

From these two posts, I think you may have a couple of misunderstandings about the stroke. As Dave said in an earlier post, there is no "correct" cadence for any rider. However, I think each of us has an "efficient" cadence. Here's a way to find your efficient cadence. Find a long, flat road section where you can ride at a constant power = constant speed. Start off in a big gear = low cadence (e.g., 60) and gradually work through your gears until your cadence is well over 100 (e.g., 110). Then, work your way back through the gears to your original cadence. Try not to look at your cadence. Just pay attention to how you feel, especially your legs. By definition, if you hold a constant speed on a constant grade and work through your gears, the only thing that is changing is cadence. Power should be constant. You should find that you feel most comfortable at a certain cadence or within a narrow range. By comfortable, I mean that you feel you are expending the least effort. This should hold true when you progress from low to high and from high to low. Once you find your best number, try the test on an upgrade and a downgrade. I think you will find that you have the same or very similar "best" cadence whether it's on the flat, uphill or downhill.

Your second post above suggests that you think you should be pulling up on the upstroke. This is a common cycling myth, probably created by Greg LeMond talking about scraping mud (or something else) off the bottom of his shoe when he pulls through the bottom. People talk about pedaling in circles, pulling through on the bottom, pulling up on the upstroke, pushing over the top, etc. All of these references suggest an objective of applying torque throughout the stroke. The reality is that the best cyclists do not pull up or even pull through at the bottom. They create virtually all their power on the downstroke (e.g., 90+%). It's no big deal if you subconsciously pull up slightly on the upstroke, but you don't want to be consciously attempting to create power throughout the stroke. Chances are that if you just relax your leg on the upstroke that you might get rid of your wobble unless somehow you're pushing your knee out on the downstroke. Greg LeMond was a good cyclist, but on this point he's just plain wrong.

It seems when I try to relax the leg and "unweight it", or try to concentrate on folding from the hips more and pedaling from there, the stroke smooths out a little and the wobble goes away. I'd like to believe that the core/strength work that I'm doing in the gym is also making this easier from a form perspective. (Even if it's not, it's certainly improving my general feeling of fitness off the bike and making it easier to pick up the groceries.). My hope is that simply riding more and improving overall condition will sort out the issues.

(On a completely separate note, last night I beat my indoor 8 minute PR (222w) from last winter (234w) on the final interval of a 3x8 set, and it was only on the last one where I felt like I was on the verge of falling apart, legs wobbling, etc. So it could just be condition and practice.).

In any event, still a long ways to go to the holy grail of 2x20 @ 300 (even 1x20 would have me jumping for joy), but the progress is unmistakable. It's still only December. And I think I might be getting hooked on the trainer. In the summer, there was such a huge difference in performance because of the heat that we had (big difference in perceived effort between FTP at 85 degrees and 100 with humidity) that it was harder to really figure out where I was at any given time. The trainer really allows me to control the environment so much better so that I know from week x to week y, the gains are coming from me rather than temperature differences.

I never thought of myself as one of those guys who could ride it every day or sit there for two plus hours, but I think I'm getting hooked. Last week I almost threw in a second sufferfest video. But I can stop anytime I want. (No, really).

New indoor PR for 20 min-222w. Only 78w to go. Tyson-if you read this i'm comin' for ya. And I'm bringing donuts.