Out with a club ...

elyob said:

One thing I noticed is that everyone else had just two front cogs, whereas I
have three, so perhaps I have a lower gear that I can get into, hence the
reason I was climbing at 8.5mph, and was getting overtaken at 10mph. They
didn't have the option of a lower gear and I did. Anyway, that's my excuse
and am wondering whether it is plausible.

If a hill is a monster it's probably the case that spinning up it in a
lower gear but high cadence will take less out of you than a higher gear
at lower cadence. High cadence (80+ rpm) should be aerobic so you won't
build up lactic acid to come back and haunt you later.

But you need to be used to doing it that way: if you're a bit of a
masher and all the low gear does is sit there adding weight then you
won't suddenly be able to change style, it will take some work. But
ultimately, on a beast of a hill, if you've lower gears then it should
be you that's laughing up the hills but losing a little on the flats
with that extra weight from the triple...

Quoted message said:

Oh, and finally, any advice on setting my gears up. I've always avoided
adjusting my own, but now I have a workstand I should learn. At the moment,
the chain rubs against the derailleur guide when I push on the right hand
pedal and I'm in top gear. It's an annoying noise and happens on both of my
bikes.

Not that this precludes adjusting the gears, but if you're putting
enough torque into the system to bend things that much pushing in top
gear it could well be the case that by dropping a gear or two and upping
the cadence to keep the speed the same will put less stress on the bike
and you too.

Both of the above lead me to wonder what /is/ your typical cadence,
especially up hills or when you're typically in top? If it's less than
80 then work on pushing up the RPM in lower gears.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

elyob said:

Oh, and finally, any advice on setting my gears up. I've always avoided
adjusting my own, but now I have a workstand I should learn. At the
moment, the chain rubs against the derailleur guide when I push on the
right hand pedal and I'm in top gear. It's an annoying noise and happens
on both of my bikes.

Not that this precludes adjusting the gears, but if you're putting enough
torque into the system to bend things that much pushing in top gear it
could well be the case that by dropping a gear or two and upping the
cadence to keep the speed the same will put less stress on the bike and
you too.

Both of the above lead me to wonder what /is/ your typical cadence,
especially up hills or when you're typically in top? If it's less than 80
then work on pushing up the RPM in lower gears.

From memory, it's around 80-85, however I didn't have the energy to check my
cadence yesterday. By the top, I was in full sweat and my breathing was very
fast. I'd definitely hit the wall on that climb. I did it earlier this year
and there was no way I did as well as I did yesterday, but there was a final
steep part I had to get off and push!

The noise from the gears is even if I put any energy into my downstroke. In
top gear, to make it stop, I have to downstroke with a "just enough to keep
wheels turning" amount of pressure. This is hardly any pressure, and I don't
feel I'm stomping on the pedals otherwise.

Oh and another one, high pitched squeal when heavy breaking, need to toe-in
my front brakes?

elyob said:

From memory, it's around 80-85, however I didn't have the energy to check my
cadence yesterday. By the top, I was in full sweat and my breathing was very
fast. I'd definitely hit the wall on that climb. I did it earlier this year
and there was no way I did as well as I did yesterday, but there was a final
steep part I had to get off and push!

In which case there is no /way/ that gearing up is going to help! If
you can spin whatever gear you're in without going /over/ your useful
cadence range then it's a viable gear to be in.

I'm afraid it sounds as if the basic problem is yer ackshewal engine
needs more welly, and fiddling with the gears is Titanic/deckchairs
territory :-(

Good news is that the best way to tune up the engine for said welly is
go out with the local Chain Gang a lot!

Quoted message said:

The noise from the gears is even if I put any energy into my downstroke. In
top gear, to make it stop, I have to downstroke with a "just enough to keep
wheels turning" amount of pressure. This is hardly any pressure, and I don't
feel I'm stomping on the pedals otherwise.

Does sound wrong but I can't really help you fix them :-(

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

In article <[email hidden]>

elyob said:

Went out for a club run for the first time yesterday. I've always steered
away from club runs on my racer, but did quite enjoy being in a big group,
quite nice to be in the middle 🙂

However, the differences really showed on the hills. I've not been doing as
much cycling as I should recently as I've been playing tennis more, but the
speed differences on the climbs were very frustrating. Okay, I don't think I
was miles behind, but it was enough to be last in and get no rest. You know
the situation when you have to wait for someone and when they turn up you
set off again, well, I was that person. 🙁

I skipped breakfast

A mistake from which you have learned.

Quoted message said:

, and the first big hill was a monster which took it out
of me for the rest of the ride. Along the flats, then I happily kept pace
and downhill I had to feather my brakes to stop running into people. I'm
carrying extra weight and haven't been out all summer like the others, so
felt I still did okay. But I need to improve and fast.

Take advantage of your extra downhill speed by arriving at the next
climb early, or push a bit harder on the flat approaching a climb - at
least that way they'll have to pass you before they can leave you
behind. :-)

Quoted message said:

One thing I noticed is that everyone else had just two front cogs, whereas I
have three, so perhaps I have a lower gear that I can get into, hence the
reason I was climbing at 8.5mph, and was getting overtaken at 10mph. They
didn't have the option of a lower gear and I did. Anyway, that's my excuse
and am wondering whether it is plausible.

You're riding like a tourist, they're riding like club cyclists. Learn
to push harder uphill without using too high a gear but without spinning
against too little resistance - the more you shift down the slower
you'll go, whether you needed to shift down or not. But do listen to
your knees - ease off at the first sign of complaint. It doesn't hurt
to stand up occasionally to push a bigger gear, but don't do it for long
or you'll tire quickly - just use it on small hills, or to get over the
last bit of a climb.

Quoted message said:

Next time, I'll have porridge before I set off, and will get some energy
sweets or something.

Bananas are good.

Quoted message said:

Any more advice? I guess "get out there and practice" is the main one, but
my legs aren't hurting today, so I think I'm reasonably fit, but just too
heavy.

As you said, you have an advantage downhill, so use it. The only time I
pulled past the climbers on a club run was when there was a strong
headwind - I'd plod up a hill while they were being blown backwards :-)

Quoted message said:

Oh, and finally, any advice on setting my gears up. I've always avoided
adjusting my own, but now I have a workstand I should learn. At the moment,
the chain rubs against the derailleur guide when I push on the right hand
pedal and I'm in top gear. It's an annoying noise and happens on both of my
bikes.

As long as there isn't excess play in the bottom bracket you just need
to move the outer stop out a bit, but not so much that the chain rubs on
the inside or throws off the outside. It may not be apparent on the
workstand, so just stick a screwdriver in your pocket and find a quiet
bit of road to ride up and down until you get it right - half a turn of
the screw may be enough.

elyob said:

Oh, and finally, any advice on setting my gears up. I've always avoided
adjusting my own, but now I have a workstand I should learn. At the moment,
the chain rubs against the derailleur guide when I push on the right hand
pedal and I'm in top gear. It's an annoying noise and happens on both of my
bikes.

Do you mean that the front derailleur cage rubs when in top gear? You
need to adjust it to have a marginally wider range of movement by
turning the adjustment screws. Not too much or your chain will fall
off when you change to the big ring, just enough to stop it rubbing.

Park have a good page on their site
http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=75
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

In article <[email hidden]>
elyob <[email hidden]> wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Oh and another one, high pitched squeal when heavy breaking, need to toe-in
my front brakes?

Try cleaning the rims and brake blocks with dilute detergent or meths,
and give the blocks a scrub with a wire-brush or emery paper (check
there's no grit embedded in them while you're at it). Also check that
there isn't excessive play in the brake pivots. If that doesn't help
then toe the blocks in, but not so much that the whole block doesn't
contact the rim when you pull the lever really hard.

elyob said:

Went out for a club run for the first time yesterday. I've always steered
away from club runs on my racer, but did quite enjoy being in a big group,
quite nice to be in the middle 🙂

However, the differences really showed on the hills.

Same here, working on it though!

Play around with the figures (i.e. weight, power input and slope) in:

http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm

For me I can go from 8.5mph to 9.9mph on a 8% hill (with the same power
input) by losing 28 lbs (which is what I'm aiming to do).

I also read somewhere (A book review in Arrivee maybe) that performance
is increased by 1% for every pound of weight shed but I'm sure that
assumes that the rider is already fit. By that scheme 8.5mph -> 10mph
is roughly 17 lbs.

The food you've eaten for the previous 48 hours is important, not just
breakfast. A good glycogen store is required. Breakfast is a must, but
it's even better if you've planned properly and eaten some carb rich
foods the day before.

-Alex

Alex said:

elyob said:

Went out for a club run for the first time yesterday. I've always steered
away from club runs on my racer, but did quite enjoy being in a big group,
quite nice to be in the middle 🙂

However, the differences really showed on the hills.

Same here, working on it though!

Play around with the figures (i.e. weight, power input and slope) in:

http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm

For me I can go from 8.5mph to 9.9mph on a 8% hill (with the same power
input) by losing 28 lbs (which is what I'm aiming to do).

I also read somewhere (A book review in Arrivee maybe) that performance
is increased by 1% for every pound of weight shed but I'm sure that
assumes that the rider is already fit. By that scheme 8.5mph -> 10mph
is roughly 17 lbs.

The food you've eaten for the previous 48 hours is important, not just
breakfast. A good glycogen store is required. Breakfast is a must, but
it's even better if you've planned properly and eaten some carb rich
foods the day before.

-Alex

Beer is carb-rich (he says checking gut)

in message <[email hidden]>, elyob

(') said:

Went out for a club run for the first time yesterday. I've always steered
away from club runs on my racer, but did quite enjoy being in a big
group, quite nice to be in the middle 🙂

However, the differences really showed on the hills. I've not been doing
as much cycling as I should recently as I've been playing tennis more,
but the speed differences on the climbs were very frustrating. Okay, I
don't think I was miles behind, but it was enough to be last in and get
no rest. You know the situation when you have to wait for someone and
when they turn up you set off again, well, I was that person. 🙁

I sympathise. I can keep up with my clubs fast boys on the flat for
hours[1], but as soon as we hit a hill I'm done for. It's not that I'm
seriously overweight, but the difference between the power I can sustain
for a long time and my absolute peak power is tiny, so when they turn up
the gas I just can't follow.

Quoted message said:

I skipped breakfast,

Nononnonono. Don't do this, /particularly/ before a fast ride!

Quoted message said:

One thing I noticed is that everyone else had just two front cogs,
whereas I have three, so perhaps I have a lower gear that I can get into,
hence the reason I was climbing at 8.5mph, and was getting overtaken at
10mph. They didn't have the option of a lower gear and I did. Anyway,
that's my excuse and am wondering whether it is plausible.

With a double you stand up sooner. When you stand up, you get some extra
power. Also, if you let your cadence get so low you can't pedal circles,
it all gets harder suddenly, which is another motivator for taking hills
quickly with a double. Doubles are good.

Quoted message said:

Oh, and finally, any advice on setting my gears up. I've always avoided
adjusting my own, but now I have a workstand I should learn. At the
moment, the chain rubs against the derailleur guide when I push on the
right hand pedal and I'm in top gear. It's an annoying noise and happens
on both of my bikes.

If the 'chirrrr' noise happens on part of the revolution, your chainset is
flexing; you need a stiffer one. Adjusting the derailleur isn't likely to
solve this. If the 'chirrr' happens continuously then adjusting the
derailleur (usually a screw adjuster on the left hand cable guide on the
down tube just below the junction with the head tube) may help. You might
also have to slacken the high limit adjustment screw on the derailleur
body half a turn.

However, with Shimano STI setups this 'chirrr' is pretty much inevitable
because you can't trim the derailleur, as you can with Campag and SRAM
setups.

[1] Figure of speech. There are no flats in these parts which last longer
than ten minutes.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

See one nuclear war, you've seen them all.

"elyob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Any more advice? I guess "get out there and practice" is the main one, but
my legs aren't hurting today, so I think I'm reasonably fit, but just too
heavy.

Don't get demoralised. I joined our local club a year ago and got kicking
after kicking, especially on steep hills and I thought I was fit from all
the commuting I do. It's so easy to chuck it if you are getting a pasting
twice a week, but I always kept in mind that I was going out with some of
the top amateurs in my area who win races and TTs. If you can stick at it,
it's fantastic training and I found out now that I'm not too far off being
something like their level. Although only their training speed - not their
full out speed.

Last week 7 of us went out and I "attacked" on a long drag. Just two young
lads came past and the local hard man. I'd dropped the others, so if you
grit your teeth and hang on (all through the winter too) you will improve
dramatically.

--
Simon Mason
http://www.simonmason.karoo.net

Peter Clinch said:

elyob wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The noise from the gears is even if I put any energy into my downstroke. In
top gear, to make it stop, I have to downstroke with a "just enough to keep
wheels turning" amount of pressure. This is hardly any pressure, and I don't
feel I'm stomping on the pedals otherwise.

Does sound wrong but I can't really help you fix them :-(

Could be that the limit adjuster screw needs undoing by half a turn or
so allowing the cage to move a little further out.

--
Dave...

Rob Morley said:

Take advantage of your extra downhill speed by arriving at the next
climb early, or push a bit harder on the flat approaching a climb - at
least that way they'll have to pass you before they can leave you
behind. :-)

He may arrive at the next hill earlier, but it's unlikely that he'll
arrive more than a fraction of a second earlier than the chain gang.
When he goes past one of two things will happen. Either they'll sit
happily on his wheel or they'll take it as a challenge and blow past
him again. Either way, when he arrives at the next hill he will have
less in reserve to get up it than formerly. I think he would be better
off using his extra downhill speed to take a breather. Also, rather
than feathering the brakes he should sit tall and use the air
resistance as a drag brake.

Nearly everyone struggles on the hills when they start riding in
experienced groups. It's not a pleasant experience but it's important
not to get demoralised. It does get easier after the first few times,
or at least less difficult. Remember also that the stronger riders find
it easier to drop the weaker ones on the hills than on the flat. It's
also less obvious that they're trying to. So there is often a tendency
for the quicker ones to push a bit harder and deliberately stretch the
group out when the road goes up even though they may pretend not to.
Even though they don't show it, remember it's actually hurting them
too. :-)

--
Dave...

"dkahn400" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Rob Morley said:

Take advantage of your extra downhill speed by arriving at the next
climb early, or push a bit harder on the flat approaching a climb - at
least that way they'll have to pass you before they can leave you
behind. :-)

He may arrive at the next hill earlier, but it's unlikely that he'll
arrive more than a fraction of a second earlier than the chain gang.
When he goes past one of two things will happen. Either they'll sit
happily on his wheel or they'll take it as a challenge and blow past
him again. Either way, when he arrives at the next hill he will have
less in reserve to get up it than formerly. I think he would be better
off using his extra downhill speed to take a breather. Also, rather
than feathering the brakes he should sit tall and use the air
resistance as a drag brake.

The roads we went on were the Surrey hills around Dorking etc, the roads are
far too narrow with traffic hacking round the bends to safely overtake
others, so I was taking a breather, but so was everyone else! I didn't
really want to push to the front as well, as - like you say - they'll have
to get past me. That's demoralising enough, but also I would get in the way
a little.

Quoted message said:

Nearly everyone struggles on the hills when they start riding in
experienced groups. It's not a pleasant experience but it's important
not to get demoralised. It does get easier after the first few times,
or at least less difficult. Remember also that the stronger riders find
it easier to drop the weaker ones on the hills than on the flat. It's
also less obvious that they're trying to. So there is often a tendency
for the quicker ones to push a bit harder and deliberately stretch the
group out when the road goes up even though they may pretend not to.
Even though they don't show it, remember it's actually hurting them
too. :-)

Thanks - it's nice to know! We got to the top of Boxhill for tea and cake
and one asked how I was getting on. I could only reply with a single four
letter word. It was quite good fun, but you could clearly see some car
drivers annoyed. However, it's like a mini critical mass and it's not like
we were just sitting about. It's never ceases to amaze me that when I'm
doing the legal speed limit, someone *always* has to try and get past "Can't
have that bike in front of me".

dkahn400 said:

Nearly everyone struggles on the hills when they start riding in
experienced groups. It's not a pleasant experience but it's important
not to get demoralised. It does get easier after the first few times,
or at least less difficult. Remember also that the stronger riders find
it easier to drop the weaker ones on the hills than on the flat. It's
also less obvious that they're trying to. So there is often a tendency
for the quicker ones to push a bit harder and deliberately stretch the
group out when the road goes up even though they may pretend not to.
Even though they don't show it, remember it's actually hurting them
too. :-)

I don't think it is a question of deliberately stretching the group.
They hit a nice touring pace on the flat, and then when they reach the
hills, don't speed up, but don't slow down either..

...d

In article <[email hidden]>

dkahn400 said:

Rob Morley said:

Take advantage of your extra downhill speed by arriving at the next
climb early, or push a bit harder on the flat approaching a climb - at
least that way they'll have to pass you before they can leave you
behind. :-)

He may arrive at the next hill earlier, but it's unlikely that he'll
arrive more than a fraction of a second earlier than the chain gang.

Did he say it was a chain gang? I thought it was a club run.

elyob said:

The roads we went on were the Surrey hills around Dorking etc, the roads are
far too narrow with traffic hacking round the bends to safely overtake
others, so I was taking a breather, but so was everyone else!

I know them well.

Quoted message said:

It's never ceases to amaze me that when I'm doing the legal speed limit,
someone *always* has to try and get past "Can't have that bike in front of
me".

It's the Golden Rule.

--
Dave...

David Martin said:

I don't think it is a question of deliberately stretching the group.
They hit a nice touring pace on the flat, and then when they reach the
hills, don't speed up, but don't slow down either..

It depends on the group of course, but IMX racers can't stop being
competitive.

--
Dave...

Rob Morley said:

In article <[email hidden]>
dkahn400 <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

He may arrive at the next hill earlier, but it's unlikely that he'll
arrive more than a fraction of a second earlier than the chain gang.

Did he say it was a chain gang? I thought it was a club run.

He did say it was a club run. I was making the assumption that it was
getting pseudo-competitive in the hills and possibly developing
chain-gang like qualities. :-)

--
Dave...

dkahn400 said:

David Martin said:

I don't think it is a question of deliberately stretching the group.
They hit a nice touring pace on the flat, and then when they reach the
hills, don't speed up, but don't slow down either..

It depends on the group of course, but IMX racers can't stop being
competitive.

It takes a lot of experience to lead a group at a steady pace. Our lot
have what we call non-colombian-pace rides where we state we will not
drop anybody, we still get strung out on the hills though.

Worst of all is when you are riding two abreast and get a half-wheeler
on the front. :-(
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"