Our impact on the LBS

Buck' j u n k m a i l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m said:

I've participated in this newsgroup for several years now and I know the impact this community has
had on my wrenching skills, my purchasing decisions, and my general awareness on biking issues. I
see newcomers every day and watch while they get the same useful advice. But I wonder how many
shops are aware of this community and how it may be impacting their business. When we teach new
cyclists how to recognize a good shop, we are spreading the knowledge about what comprises a good
shop as well as spreading the word about our newsgroup. I know we have representatives from a few
shops who participate on a regular basis, but how many lurkers are hiding out there who are taking
the advice we give and making their shops better?

I just wonder, how many shops out there know that we are affecting their bottom line and how many
are doing something about it?

You know what I think would be a good promo for LBSs? a free or low cost basic maintenance class.
They might lose out on a "tune up" or two but I'd bet they'd more than make it up in exposure, major
repairs, new bike sales, parts and tool sales (which they could have at the workshop), etc etc.

Quoted message said:

I just wonder, how many shops out there know that we are affecting their bottom line and how many
are doing something about it?

The reality is that it's a very, very tiny percentage of internet users who access usenet. In fact,
most don't even know it's there, believe it or not. For the most part, customers get information
from websites.

That doesn't mean that usenet isn't influential, as the typical usenet user tends to be someone
whose opinions are shared with others off-net as well.

Keep in mind that cycling isn't always the only thing a cyclist is interested in, and even if
someone has been exposed to usenet, it may not have been favorable. Or, perhaps if someone's
interested in racing and tuned into rec.bicycles.racing and thought that was a typical usenet
experience...

But regarding shops and improvement, it doesn't take usenet for shops to recognize the need to
change & improve. Customers have voted with their wallets long before the internet came along, and
shops that ignored the needs of their customers have always been subject to the realities of the
marketplace. To some extent the internet may speed the process, but keep in mind it's not something
new & revolutionary, but rather a more efficient means of communicating information and ideas. We
used to read newsletters & magazines and simply talk to others.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

"Buck" <j u n k m a i l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've participated in this newsgroup for several years now and I know the impact this community has
had on my wrenching skills, my purchasing decisions, and my general awareness on biking issues. I
see newcomers

every

Quoted message said:

day and watch while they get the same useful advice. But I wonder how many shops are aware of this
community and how it may be impacting their business. When we teach new cyclists how to recognize
a good shop, we are spreading the knowledge about what comprises a good shop as well as spreading
the word about our newsgroup. I know we have representatives

from

Quoted message said:

a few shops who participate on a regular basis, but how many lurkers are hiding out there who are
taking the advice we give and making their shops better?

I just wonder, how many shops out there know that we are affecting their bottom line and how many
are doing something about it?

-Buck

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I just wonder, how many shops out there know that we are affecting their bottom line and how
many are doing something about it?

The reality is that it's a very, very tiny percentage of internet users

who

Quoted message said:

access usenet. In fact, most don't even know it's there, believe it or

not.

Quoted message said:

For the most part, customers get information from websites.

That doesn't mean that usenet isn't influential, as the typical usenet

user

Quoted message said:

tends to be someone whose opinions are shared with others off-net as well.

Keep in mind that cycling isn't always the only thing a cyclist is interested in, and even if
someone has been exposed to usenet, it may not have been favorable. Or, perhaps if someone's
interested in racing and tuned into rec.bicycles.racing and thought that was a typical usenet
experience...

But regarding shops and improvement, it doesn't take usenet for shops to recognize the need to
change & improve. Customers have voted with their wallets long before the internet came along, and
shops that ignored the needs of their customers have always been subject to the realities of the
marketplace. To some extent the internet may speed the process, but keep

in

Quoted message said:

mind it's not something new & revolutionary, but rather a more efficient means of communicating
information and ideas. We used to read newsletters

&

Quoted message said:

magazines and simply talk to others.

Since we're talking about LBSs here, I'm going to go a little OT. I thought I'd share a story about
the "new" Supergo. Seems that Performance bought out Supergo a few months ago. Promises to the
vendors and employees that nothing would change have turned out to be not true...

I just got done talking with a few of the employees outside the shop the other day. Seems that some
of them are being written up for helping customers, even though it means a little overtime. I
actually had one of the guys tell me that a manager came up to him in the middle of a sale, the
manager told the customer that he (the sales guy) had to go now, and that the manager would take
over for him. Seems said employee had punched in early, and was threatening to go into OT. Oops.

Others had gone to lunch late, then came back a little early because there were customers that
needed help, and have been "written up" for helping out the customers.

Granted, I can see both sides of this one, having been both a manager of a shop as well as an
employee, but writing employees up for helping customers is the best way to kill any kind of
service! I've always held the opinion that you have to take care of the customer #1, then the
employees, then the higher ups. If you don't take care of the employees, the customer service
disappears, then the customer disappears. Once the customer disappears, the shop dies.

How does this relate to the original topic? Well, I just told untold numbers of people that the new
management (PBS) of Supergo has their heads up their asses, and to be prepared next time you stop
in. I have friends that ride, and friends that don't. The ones looking for a bike may or may not be
referred to Supergo/PBS depending on whether things are getting better or worse at the shop.

If the management team at Supergo/PBS were smart, they'd start standing up for their employees,
which makes the employees happy, which makes the customers happy, which makes the bottom line happy.
A happy employee also doesn't steal, which makes shrink disappear...

Mike

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I just wonder, how many shops out there know that we are affecting their bottom line and how
many are doing something about it?

The reality is that it's a very, very tiny percentage of internet users

who

Quoted message said:

access usenet. In fact, most don't even know it's there, believe it or

not.

Quoted message said:

For the most part, customers get information from websites.

That doesn't mean that usenet isn't influential, as the typical usenet

user

Quoted message said:

tends to be someone whose opinions are shared with others off-net as well.

Keep in mind that cycling isn't always the only thing a cyclist is interested in, and even if
someone has been exposed to usenet, it may not have been favorable. Or, perhaps if someone's
interested in racing and tuned into rec.bicycles.racing and thought that was a typical usenet
experience...

But regarding shops and improvement, it doesn't take usenet for shops to recognize the need to
change & improve. Customers have voted with their wallets long before the internet came along, and
shops that ignored the needs of their customers have always been subject to the realities of the
marketplace. To some extent the internet may speed the process, but keep

in

Quoted message said:

mind it's not something new & revolutionary, but rather a more efficient means of communicating
information and ideas. We used to read newsletters

&

Quoted message said:

magazines and simply talk to others.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

Mike: Do you still require a driver's license as ID for test rides?

Tim.

"JeB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Buck' j u n k m a i l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m said:

I've participated in this newsgroup for several years now and I know the impact this community
has had on my wrenching skills, my purchasing decisions, and my general awareness on biking
issues. I see newcomers

every

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

day and watch while they get the same useful advice. But I wonder how

many

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

shops are aware of this community and how it may be impacting their business. When we teach new
cyclists how to recognize a good shop, we are spreading the knowledge about what comprises a good
shop as well as spreading the word about our newsgroup. I know we have representatives

from

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a few shops who participate on a regular basis, but how many lurkers are hiding out there who are
taking the advice we give and making their shops better?

I just wonder, how many shops out there know that we are affecting their bottom line and how many
are doing something about it?

You know what I think would be a good promo for LBSs? a free or low cost basic maintenance
class. They might lose out on a "tune up" or two but I'd bet they'd more than make it up in
exposure, major repairs, new bike sales, parts and tool sales (which they could have at the
workshop), etc etc.

There's a shop in Berkeley (Missing Link Cycles) which does just that. They have weekly free classes
on basic to mid-level bike maintenance. One topic per class (brakes, drivetrain, wheels, etc.) It's
a great idea, but probably not one that many shops would be willing to do because they'd probably
rather not give away "trade secrets". Then again, this shop IS in Berkeley, and it's even a
worker-owned co-op if I'm not mistaken. Damn hippies! 😉

-Patrick

"Patrick W." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

There's a shop in Berkeley (Missing Link Cycles) which does just that.

They

Quoted message said:

have weekly free classes on basic to mid-level bike maintenance. One topic per class (brakes,
drivetrain, wheels, etc.) It's a great idea, but

probably

Quoted message said:

not one that many shops would be willing to do because they'd probably rather not give away "trade
secrets". Then again, this shop IS in

Berkeley,

Quoted message said:

and it's even a worker-owned co-op if I'm not mistaken. Damn hippies! 😉

-Patrick

You know, I've never personally subscribed to the "trade secrets" mentality. Sure there are some
tricks and some skill involved in certain aspects of bike repair, but that's true of many things. I
was a car/motorcycle/bike mechanic for years and I NEVER change the oil in my car. It's not for lack
of knowledge to be sure, it's just that I simply can't be bothered. I'd much rather pay someone else
to do it. And I suspect a lot of riders are like that too. OK, we're mostly keeners and maybe are
anxious to do it ourselves, but I'm sure a lot of people just can't be bothered to clean their
chain, install a new derailleur etc. I think education makes for better customers because they know
what's involved in working on a bike. Maybe the gougers who rely on ignorance to make more profit
will be upset, but good shops like the ones owned by some of the guys who write here wouldn't mind a
bit I doubt. Besides, in the shop I worked in, we didn't make a great deal of cash on labour anyway.
It was always a fine line between what people will pay and what it costs to do a good job. We
charged $100 labour for an overhaul. To do it properly takes at LEAST half a day. You're paying a
good mechanic $10-$15/hour..that's $60 in salary you're paying to do the job if it only takes 4
hours. It usually takes 6-8 hours depending on how good a job you do which means you could
conceivably LOSE money. To do a brake job on a car takes 4 hours. They charge approx. $300 labour
for that. In the context of a car, that's not much money. How many people are going to pay $300 for
an overhaul on a $400 bike?? It's a tough business and it's no wonder so many people have bad
experiences because the economics of the business just don't make sense in a lot of ways, especially
in Canada. Bikes get assembled by high-school kids because they have to be! Unless you're lucky
enough to have access to a Vecchio's or Harris Cyclery in your neighbourhood.

Cheers,

Scott..

"Patrick W." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"JeB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You know what I think would be a good promo for LBSs? a

free or low cost

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

basic maintenance class. They might lose out on a "tune

up" or two but

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd bet they'd more than make it up in exposure, major

repairs, new

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bike sales, parts and tool sales (which they could have

at the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

workshop), etc etc.

Quoted message said:

There's a shop in Berkeley (Missing Link Cycles) which

does just that. They

Quoted message said:

have weekly free classes on basic to mid-level bike

maintenance. One topic

Quoted message said:

per class (brakes, drivetrain, wheels, etc.) It's a great

idea, but probably

Quoted message said:

not one that many shops would be willing to do because

they'd probably

Quoted message said:

rather not give away "trade secrets". Then again, this

shop IS in Berkeley,

Quoted message said:

and it's even a worker-owned co-op if I'm not mistaken.

Damn hippies! 😉

A lot of shops do this, including profit-obsessed corporate entities like Performance and REI. So do
independent, local shops. It just depends on the owner. Generally, anything that gets people in the
store is good. And anything that makes you look like the guy who knows what he's doing is better.

In my experience, exposing people to professional knowledge and tools only increases their
appreciation of the professional.

My sister is an interior decorator, a profession more cannibalized by dilletantes and would-be's
than any other. People come into her store and pick her brain for hours, wasting her time and
pulling her away from paying customers. But inevitably, they come back weeks or months later, after
buying all their stuff elsewhere -- checkbook in hand, wanting an appointment, "It just looks so
much better when *you* do it..."

Matt O.

Quoted message said:

"Mike Jacoubowsky" [email hidden]

wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

the typical usenet user tends to be someone whose opinions are shared with others off-net as well.

Keep in mind that cycling isn't always the only thing a cyclist is interested in

That's a diplimatic way of saying we tend to be vocal and opinionated on a broad range of
subjects. ;-)

Regards, Bob Hunt

We charged

Quoted message said:

$100 labour for an overhaul. To do it properly takes at LEAST half a day.

I am amazed that there could be four hours work in a bicycle for a compentent mechanic. What does an
overhaul consist of?

"Ed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

We charged

Quoted message said:

$100 labour for an overhaul. To do it properly takes at LEAST half a

day.

Quoted message said:

I am amazed that there could be four hours work in a bicycle for a

compentent

Quoted message said:

mechanic. What does an overhaul consist of?

Strip to the bare frame, clean absolutely everything, regrease and re-assemble. It also includes
wheel truing, a check on every component for wear and tear (including trying to find replacement
parts that are worn out..), installation of any new parts and straightening/repairing obvious
damage. Also, as you can tell from some of the threads here, you have to check all parts for cracks
and damage so there is no liability issue. It includes cleaning and greasing all bearings, including
pedals and jockey wheels. Like I say, you can butcher it and do it in under 4 hours easily, but we
didn't tolerate that quality of work. So really you were looking at 4-6 hours generally. And keep in
mind, this isn't your job on your bike. The quality of the bikes is generally not great, you have no
prior knowledge of the bike and the customer expects to receive a brand new bike when he returns. So
there is a great deal of work involved. Consider how long it would take you to build your bike up
without even having to regrease any bearings. That's easily an hour of work, including adjusting
derailleurs, adjusting brakes, installing chain, handlebar tape etc. And also consider that you only
get 1 shot at getting it right. This involves a test ride and subsequent re-adjustment. Four hours
shot no problem.

Cheers,

Scott..

Mike S. said:

Seems that Performance bought out Supergo a few months ago. Promises to the vendors and employees
that nothing would change have turned out to be not true...

Ditto when they bought out Nashbar.

--
Frank Krygowski [email hidden]

"Ed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

We charged

Quoted message said:

$100 labour for an overhaul. To do it properly takes at LEAST half a

day.

Quoted message said:

I am amazed that there could be four hours work in a bicycle for a

compentent

Quoted message said:

mechanic. What does an overhaul consist of?

A clue might be that he said "overhaul", not "tuneup". I can imagine that, considering bikes I've
seen in the shop.

"Frank Krygowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike S. said:

Seems that Performance bought out Supergo a few months ago. Promises to the vendors and
employees

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

nothing would change have turned out to be not true...

Ditto when they bought out Nashbar.

Didn't have as much to do with Nashbar since they closed their NoVa shop. Knew most of the guys that
worked there, so I used to stop in a bunch.

Mike

Quoted message said:

--
Frank Krygowski [email hidden]

JeB:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You know what I think would be a good promo for LBSs? a free or low cost basic maintenance
class. They might lose out on a "tune up" or two but I'd bet they'd more than make it up in
exposure, major repairs, new bike sales, parts and tool sales (which they could have at the
workshop), etc etc.

Patrick:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There's a shop in Berkeley (Missing Link Cycles) which does just that. They have weekly free
classes on basic to mid-level bike maintenance. One topic per class (brakes, drivetrain, wheels,
etc.) It's a great idea, but probably not one that many shops would be willing to do because
they'd probably rather not give away "trade secrets". Then again, this shop IS in Berkeley, and
it's even a worker-owned co-op if I'm not mistaken.

Matt:

Quoted message said:

A lot of shops do this, including profit-obsessed corporate entities like Performance and REI. So
do independent, local shops. It just depends on the owner. Generally, anything that gets people in
the store is good. And anything that makes you look like the guy who knows what he's doing is
better...

Teaching customers how to fix their flats, adjust derailleurs and brakes, and so forth can only
encourage them to ride more. Many folks are timid about getting more than an hour from home;
empowerment is a wonderful thing.

--Karen M. who learned basic repairs when my mother wouldn't let me go riding

Quoted message said:

That's a diplimatic way of saying we tend to be vocal and opinionated on a broad range of
subjects. ;-)

Yes, that's another way of saying it! Thank goodness we moderate ourselves fairly well though. There
are a number of formerly good-for-information groups that have become completely worthless since the
start of things in Iraq, notably rec.travel.europe.

This really is a pretty friendly bunch of people. Once in a while someone new comes along who has to
be broken in, but things usually turn out for the best.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Mike: Do you still require a driver's license as ID for test rides?

Yes, no other way to make sure of someone's identity and make sure they come back. Even that's not
totally foolproof, as a shop nearby had a $3000 bike stolen a few weeks ago because the guy passed a
phony ID. It's really not all that difficult to spot most of them.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

"Tim Cain" <tim_no1@you_know_what_to_cut_timcain.co.uk> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I just wonder, how many shops out there know that we are affecting

their

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bottom line and how many are doing something about it?

The reality is that it's a very, very tiny percentage of internet users

who

Quoted message said:

access usenet. In fact, most don't even know it's there, believe it or

not.

Quoted message said:

For the most part, customers get information from websites.

That doesn't mean that usenet isn't influential, as the typical usenet

user

Quoted message said:

tends to be someone whose opinions are shared with others off-net as

well.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Keep in mind that cycling isn't always the only thing a cyclist is interested in, and even if
someone has been exposed to usenet, it may

not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

have been favorable. Or, perhaps if someone's interested in racing and tuned into
rec.bicycles.racing and thought that was a typical usenet experience...

But regarding shops and improvement, it doesn't take usenet for shops to recognize the need to
change & improve. Customers have voted with their wallets long before the internet came along,
and shops that ignored the needs of their customers have always been subject to the realities of

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

marketplace. To some extent the internet may speed the process, but

keep

Quoted message said:

in

Quoted message said:

mind it's not something new & revolutionary, but rather a more efficient means of communicating
information and ideas. We used to read

newsletters

Quoted message said:

&

Quoted message said:

magazines and simply talk to others.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

Mike: Do you still require a driver's license as ID for test rides?

Tim.

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Mike: Do you still require a driver's license as ID for test rides?

Yes, no other way to make sure of someone's identity and make sure they come back.

Do you take other official ID like a passport or California state ID card (same IDs the TSA will
take at airports). I agree that a valid ID is important, but some bicyclists don't drive.

Ken

Quoted message said:

Do you take other official ID like a passport or California state ID card (same IDs the TSA will
take at airports). I agree that a valid ID is important, but some bicyclists don't drive.

Absolutely. I thought about mentioning that California state-issued ID cards were OK as well, but
figured what the heck, might be interesting to see what sort of controversy I stirred up.

It would be nice if you could let someone out on a testride with nothing more than a handshake, but
I learned first-hand that you can't. A couple years ago, I had someone test-riding a $700 road bike
in our enclosed parking lot behind the store. I was with him in the parking lot, checking out his
position on the bike. A car entered into the parking lot (which is gated and requires a code to get
in) and, while the gate was open, the guy just rides on out and that's the last we saw of him.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗