ouch!

On 26.10.05 10:07 Bill Sornson said:

Michael Press said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

someone writes:

http://www.velonews.com/images/news/9076.13096.f.jpg

That's what I love about carbon steer tubes, but why did his chain
fall off at the same time?

Possible scenario:
Chain breaks.
Rider falls forward onto bars.
Steering column snaps.

Dentist puts down payment on beach house.

8-)

Double ouch!!
--
Størker Moe
'97 GT Avalanche, '01 Trek Fuel 90, '96 Trek 850

Email Storker(DOT)Moe(AT)c2i(DOT)net
WWW http://home.c2i.net/storker_moe/

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

Phil said:

41 wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

His chain didn't fall off. If you bothered to look at the picture
with more than a cursory glance, you'll notice that the chain is
still wrapped around the small chainring. As Paul H mentioned, it's
post-jump, as is the following photo I recently took with the same
phenomenon present.

http://plaza.ufl.edu/phillee/cr/chain.jpg

That's hardly the same thing. To me, it looks like the problem is at
the rear cluster- follow the line of the chain towards the rear. That
ain't normal.

Then I take it you haven't seen too many dirt jump photos. The chain
inertia can easily pull the derailleur completely linear.

You missed the point: linear between the ground and where?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

-what are the two black lines crossing his front tire, between the
stem and his lower hand?

Rear brake cable/housing and rear shifter cable/housing

Where are the corresponding ones for the front?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's not clear at all that that is a threaded stem. The resolution
just isn't good enough, but for example, there appears to be a stack
of spacers at the bottom. I know of n o threaded headset that looks
anything like that.

It looks like the locknut and cup. The diameter of the vertical portion of
the stem is such that it would not be large enough to clamp around the
steerer. I think it's threaded.

No, the stack height is far too high for it to be a locknut and cup. I
think the seemingly narrow diameter is an artifact. But, the resolution
isn't good enough to be sure. If someone could find where the
corresponding caption or article is, perhaps someone could ask him, if
he survived.É

Quoted message said:

someone writes:

http://www.velonews.com/images/news/9076.13096.f.jpg

That's what I love about carbon steer tubes, but why did his chain
fall off at the same time?

Jobst Brandt

As far as I can make out this is a threaded headset, with the steerer
snapping at the end of the threads. Yanking on the shiftercable probably
pushed de derailleur in the spokes (Yes, that's two big ones for the
mechanic 😉 )
--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

41 said:

Phil said:

41 wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's not clear at all that that is a threaded stem. The resolution
just isn't good enough, but for example, there appears to be a stack
of spacers at the bottom. I know of n o threaded headset that looks
anything like that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It looks like the locknut and cup. The diameter of the vertical portion of
the stem is such that it would not be large enough to clamp around the
steerer. I think it's threaded.

Quoted message said:

No, the stack height is far too high for it to be a locknut and cup. I
think the seemingly narrow diameter is an artifact. But, the resolution
isn't good enough to be sure. If someone could find where the
corresponding caption or article is, perhaps someone could ask him, if
he survived.É

Queen Georgina,

Look at the surroundings. The rider's helmet, shoes, and socks all tell
you that this photo was taken more than 10 years ago. The narrow
handlebars and barends are old-skool too. And a GT "all terra"? I
remember that labeling...

While it's possible that this is a retro dude and the photo is recent, I
sincerely doubt it. And did you see the end of the stem fixing bolt
sticking up? If that's a threadless headset, I'll eat my hat.

Regarding the tall stack height, I had an old MTB with spacers in the
headset. I guess a few spacers was easier than cutting the steer tube.
But I'm not convinced that the photo even shows a tall headset.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

41 said:

Phil said:

41 wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>His chain didn't fall off. If you bothered to look at the picture
>with more than a cursory glance, you'll notice that the chain is
>still wrapped around the small chainring. As Paul H mentioned, it's
>post-jump, as is the following photo I recently took with the same
>phenomenon present.
>
>http://plaza.ufl.edu/phillee/cr/chain.jpg

That's hardly the same thing. To me, it looks like the problem is at
the rear cluster- follow the line of the chain towards the rear. That
ain't normal.

Then I take it you haven't seen too many dirt jump photos. The chain
inertia can easily pull the derailleur completely linear.

You missed the point: linear between the ground and where?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

-what are the two black lines crossing his front tire, between the
stem and his lower hand?

Rear brake cable/housing and rear shifter cable/housing

Where are the corresponding ones for the front?

Two cables are the ones you noticed. One goes over (and through) the
paper number (it goes through it just above the third number), the last
one is hidden somewhere.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's not clear at all that that is a threaded stem. The resolution
just isn't good enough, but for example, there appears to be a stack
of spacers at the bottom. I know of n o threaded headset that looks
anything like that.

It looks like the locknut and cup. The diameter of the vertical portion of
the stem is such that it would not be large enough to clamp around the
steerer. I think it's threaded.

No, the stack height is far too high for it to be a locknut and cup.

Why? You can put spacers between the cup and the locknut. And anyway if
there is one I bet it's no more than 3mm or so.

Quoted message said:

I think the seemingly narrow diameter is an artifact.

An artifact? It is too narrow, period. Anyway looking at the handlebar
clamp and given that the fork is a rigid one, it's almost certain that
this is a quill stem.

But, the resolution

Quoted message said:

isn't good enough to be sure. If someone could find where the
corresponding caption or article is, perhaps someone could ask him, if
he survived.É

Quoted message said:

someone writes:

http://www.velonews.com/images/news/9076.13096.f.jpg

That's what I love about carbon steer tubes, but why did his chain
fall off at the same time?

Jobst Brandt

Looks like his rear derailer cable is out of the frame stops, I'm
guessing his front is too. Probably jammed his chain as a consequence,
r. derailer cage looks far forward, yet chain is on inner ring. To get
that much chain slack he must be in small-small, unless the chain is
broken where we can't see it. Derailers would go to r. big - fr. small
if all cable tension were removed -- doesn't explain r. derailer cage
position, though.

Interesting photo -- I wonder whether it was a chain problem (jam or
snap) that sent him forward, breaking the steer tube, or the other way
around?

dvt said:

Queen Georgina,

Look at the surroundings. The rider's helmet, shoes, and socks all tell
you that this photo was taken more than 10 years ago. The narrow
handlebars and barends are old-skool too. And a GT "all terra"? I
remember that labeling...

While it's possible that this is a retro dude and the photo is recent, I
sincerely doubt it. And did you see the end of the stem fixing bolt
sticking up? If that's a threadless headset, I'll eat my hat.

Regarding the tall stack height, I had an old MTB with spacers in the
headset. I guess a few spacers was easier than cutting the steer tube.
But I'm not convinced that the photo even shows a tall headset.

The headset looks exactly like this one:
http://tinyurl.com/coy3p

Peter Cole said:

Interesting photo -- I wonder whether it was a chain problem (jam or
snap) that sent him forward, breaking the steer tube, or the other way
around?

I think the front wheel is too compressed to be caused by a chain
problem. Heck, the wheel is still compressed and the handlebars are no
longer attached. And the back wheel is still off the ground. I'd say
it's a post-jump photo.

I agree with Phil... there is probably nothing wrong with the derailer
and drivetrain in this photo. The chain is just continuing its path
downward while the ground stops the rest of the bike. Again, I think
it's a photo of the landing from the jump.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

"Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:9BD7f.86$ZP1.36@dukeread11...

Quoted message said:

Llatikcuf said:

http://www.velonews.com/images/news/9076.13096.f.jpg

Most importantly...

*the bottom 3 spokes on the front wheel are visibly BENT*

I guess this answers our spokes hanging vs. standing debate.

Great observation - I did not notice that the first time I saw this photo 2
weeks ago. The bent spokes clearly indicate that jobst is most likely wrong
that a wheel hangs on the spokes versus stands on them. If it were to hang
on the spokes the hanging spokes may have yielded. Though, I am not sure
that would be visibile in the photo.

David

<snippage of JB's knock on full carbon forks>

To add an N of 1 to the other side of this argument, I headered into a
ditch this year, with my full carbon fork taking the full force of our
combined 230 lbs at 25 mph in an instantaneous deceleration. Fork is
fine, but my collarbone has yet to heal (and won't, according to my
orthopedic surgeon).

Carbon steerer tubes, at least Alpha Q carbon steerer tubes, seem to be
quite durable.

D'ohBoy

"41" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Phil said:

Quoted message said:

someone writes:

Snip

Quoted message said:

-what is the black line going from his back knee forward?
-what are the two black lines crossing his front tire, between the
stem and his lower hand?
-what is that thing that looks like a straddle cable and yoke in the
same region?

It's not clear at all that that is a threaded stem. The resolution just
isn't good enough, but for example, there appears to be a stack of
spacers at the bottom. I know of no threaded headset that looks
anything like that.

Wow, the fact that I know the answer (at least in my own mind) makes me feel
like an old fart.

What has happened to this rider is that he has broken his sterer column,
perhaps from a bulge created when he tightened the stem too tight inside it.

His straddle cable was supported through the stem and as a result when the
stem went down the straddle cable hooked onto the knobblies in the front
tire.

This pretty well locks the front wheel, causing his front tire to bulge at
the bottom with the force of the deceleration and causing bicycle to
decelerate faster than him and his chain (thus pushing the chain forward as
seen in the picture)

Dave Reckoning
Noblesville, IN

dvt said:

Peter Cole said:

Interesting photo -- I wonder whether it was a chain problem (jam or
snap) that sent him forward, breaking the steer tube, or the other way
around?

I think the front wheel is too compressed to be caused by a chain
problem. Heck, the wheel is still compressed and the handlebars are no
longer attached. And the back wheel is still off the ground. I'd say
it's a post-jump photo.

I agree with Phil... there is probably nothing wrong with the derailer
and drivetrain in this photo. The chain is just continuing its path
downward while the ground stops the rest of the bike. Again, I think
it's a photo of the landing from the jump.

Nah, a jump couldn't cause that much slack.

Peter Cole said:

dvt said:

Peter Cole said:

Interesting photo -- I wonder whether it was a chain problem (jam or
snap) that sent him forward, breaking the steer tube, or the other
way around?

I think the front wheel is too compressed to be caused by a chain
problem. Heck, the wheel is still compressed and the handlebars are no
longer attached. And the back wheel is still off the ground. I'd say
it's a post-jump photo.

I agree with Phil... there is probably nothing wrong with the derailer
and drivetrain in this photo. The chain is just continuing its path
downward while the ground stops the rest of the bike. Again, I think
it's a photo of the landing from the jump.

Quoted message said:

Nah, a jump couldn't cause that much slack.

I don't agree. The chain is on the small ring, and although we can't
tell which cog it's on, it's safe to say that the chain has plenty of
slack available.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

"Mark Janeba" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Leo Lichtman said:

When I first looked at the picture, I thought I saw a kickstand, which
would mean it is a posed picture. However, I think that dark line is his
chain, which means that this poor guy is flapping at both ends.

Agreed. Double ouch.

It looks to me like a quill stem - what do others think?

So does that mean his steerer column separated somewhere in the threaded
section?

It kinda looks like a quill stem with the upper headset race still
attached, indicating the fork tube failed.

Story behind the photo:

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/9082.0.html

"Hello,
Becky Brandt's dad here. Becky is at school right now, so I am writing
in on her behalf. She took that photo at the WORS Ultimax Challenge in
Sheboygan, Wisconsin, on October 9th of this year. It was the
citizen/beginner race in the area simply called "the log jump." This
guy hit the jump pretty fast, but never pulled up on the bars at all.
The fork steer tube sheared at the threads when he was landing. He
turned out to be okay. Nonetheless, they took him in for a visit to the
hospital as a precaution.

While he was laying on the ground, he was asking his dad to pick up the
headset bearings and other parts so he could rebuild and give her
another go!

Thanks for the weekly photo contest. We have had a lot of fun with it!
Doulas Brandt
Kenosha, Wisconsin"

dvt said:

Look at the surroundings. The rider's helmet, shoes, and socks all
tell you that this photo was taken more than 10 years ago. The narrow
handlebars and barends are old-skool too. And a GT "all terra"? I
remember that labeling...

While it's possible that this is a retro dude and the photo is
recent, I sincerely doubt it.

From Scott's (formerly Blubberpuss?) reply on AM-B:

Here's some follow up from Velonews:
http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/9082.0.html

"The story behind that photo
Hello,
Becky Brandt's dad here. Becky is at school right now, so I am writing
in on her behalf. She took that photo at the WORS Ultimax Challenge in
Sheboygan, Wisconsin, on October 9th of this year. It was the
citizen/beginner race in the area simply called "the log jump." This
guy hit the jump pretty fast, but never pulled up on the bars at all.
The fork steer tube sheared at the threads when he was landing. He
turned out to be okay. Nonetheless, they took him in for a visit to the
hospital as a precaution.
While he was laying on the ground, he was asking his dad to pick up the
headset bearings and other parts so he could rebuild and give her
another go!

Thanks for the weekly photo contest. We have had a lot of fun with it!
Doulas Brandt
Kenosha, Wisconsin

Mmmmmm... "Rebuild her and give her another go?" Maybe he should have
been more thoroughly examined. Anyway, please give Becky our
congratulations. Her book is on the way. - Editor"

Now for the suprising part -- October 9th of THIS YEAR? Hmmm.... Maybe
a massive failure like that could kinda be expected if you were using a
presumably well-used ~15 year old bike for a jumping contest?

/s

Bill "cut & paste" S.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

*the bottom 3 spokes on the front wheel are visibly BENT*

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I guess this answers our spokes hanging vs. standing debate.

David said:

Great observation - I did not notice that the first time I saw this photo 2
weeks ago. The bent spokes clearly indicate that jobst is most likely wrong
that a wheel hangs on the spokes versus stands on them. If it were to hang
on the spokes the hanging spokes may have yielded. Though, I am not sure
that would be visibile in the photo.

Jobst can speak for himself on this, but, uh, I am pretty sure that he
maintains that the wheel does indeed stand on the spokes. Looks to me
like he is correct!

D'ohBoy said:

<snippage of JB's knock on full carbon forks>

To add an N of 1 to the other side of this argument, I headered into a
ditch this year, with my full carbon fork taking the full force of our
combined 230 lbs at 25 mph in an instantaneous deceleration. Fork is
fine, but my collarbone has yet to heal (and won't, according to my
orthopedic surgeon).

Carbon steerer tubes, at least Alpha Q carbon steerer tubes, seem to be
quite durable.

the picture is obviously from the mid-90s. it looks like the threaded
steel steerer tube broke taking the stem and the top of the headset
with it.

i've seen many more 700g steel forks fail while riding than carbon
forks, though i've one of those fail as well. probably because the
quality control of steel forks wasn't that consistent.

Quoted message said:

the picture is obviously from the mid-90s.

17 days ago. Close!

Bill Sornson said:

Quoted message said:

the picture is obviously from the mid-90s.

Quoted message said:

17 days ago. Close!

I thought Amit was right, too... Someone has to introduce that rider to
Fabrizio.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu