OT: Winter Electric kw/h Savings

Andy schrieb

Quoted message said:

On the TV news the winter savings segment mentioned that every plugged in A/C
appliance plugged in still draws electricity whether on or off.

Wrong.

Quoted message said:

I switched off the air conditioner circuits and unplugged countless chargers
and 'puters I don't use. I unplugged the printer and lots of other things
that seemingly suck up juice.

Might buy me a few bottles of wine until spring?

One factoid (claimed, depending on wattage and kw/h cost) a computer will
while turned off will cost $6.02. (.02 added for dramatics! 🙂)

Nope. Not a "turned off" computer.
A computer in "sleep mode".
The same is true for all other electrical devices.
Just make sure the the gadget you buy has an "ON/OFF" switch.
Don't use the remote control to turn off the TV, use the switch.

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner

Michael Kuettner said:

Just make sure the the gadget you buy has an "ON/OFF" switch.
Don't use the remote control to turn off the TV, use the switch.

If the switch on the TV actually turned it off,
you wouldn't be able to turn it back on using
the remote control.

Here's a site from the research group that caused
all the fuss about standby power consumption:

http://standby.lbl.gov/

Note that air conditioners are mentioned in the
very first sentence.

The amount of power wasted by appliances that
are not actually off is huge.

"Mark Thorson" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Michael Kuettner said:

Just make sure the the gadget you buy has an "ON/OFF" switch.
Don't use the remote control to turn off the TV, use the switch.

If the switch on the TV actually turned it off,
you wouldn't be able to turn it back on using
the remote control.

Well, then you've bought junk.
I switch the TV off by the ON/OFF switch. The remote won't
switch it on again. Testing - nope. No TV.
That's why I said "make sure that the gadget you buy has an
ON/OFF switch".

Quoted message said:

Here's a site from the research group that caused
all the fuss about standby power consumption:

http://standby.lbl.gov/

And here you've got the problem :
"Standby" isn't off.

Quoted message said:

Note that air conditioners are mentioned in the
very first sentence.

Err, yes. So what ?
Standby doesn't mean "switched off".

Quoted message said:

The amount of power wasted by appliances that
are not actually off is huge.

Exactly. That's why I said to use the "OFF" switch, not the
remote.
Turn the appliance off, don't use "standby" or "sleep" mode.

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner

Michael Kuettner said:

"Mark Thorson" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag

Quoted message said:

Note that air conditioners are mentioned in the
very first sentence.

Err, yes. So what ?
Standby doesn't mean "switched off".

When Andy mentioned air conditioners, you just flatly
said "Wrong.". You, in fact, were wrong. Air conditioners
most certainly are one of the problematic appliances.

Michael Kuettner said:

Andy schrieb

Quoted message said:

On the TV news the winter savings segment mentioned that every plugged in A/C
appliance plugged in still draws electricity whether on or off.

Wrong.

Quoted message said:

I switched off the air conditioner circuits and unplugged countless chargers
and 'puters I don't use. I unplugged the printer and lots of other things
that seemingly suck up juice.

Might buy me a few bottles of wine until spring?

One factoid (claimed, depending on wattage and kw/h cost) a computer will
while turned off will cost $6.02. (.02 added for dramatics! 🙂)

Nope. Not a "turned off" computer.

Yes, a computer in "turned off" mode, if it has a soft touch electronic
power switch as nearly all do these days. Only a computer with a "real"
power switch is actually really off when "off" 🙂

Quoted message said:

A computer in "sleep mode".

In sleep mode most computers are at another intermediate power
consumption level, one higher than "power off" standby but lower than
"full on".

Quoted message said:

The same is true for all other electrical devices.
Just make sure the the gadget you buy has an "ON/OFF" switch.
Don't use the remote control to turn off the TV, use the switch.

When was the last time you save a TV with a real power switch? Pretty
much all current consumer TVs have electronic power switches that are
functionally equivalent to the power button on the remote control. The
TV remains minimally powered with the IR receiver circuitry active so it
can respond to the remote to "turn on".

These standby power loads are pretty tiny individually, but over the
typical household they can add up to a fair amount. In economic terms a
typical family might spend $10 per month for this standby power. Not
hugely significant economically, and some of that standby power does
provide actual functionality / convenience, but in many cases it doesn't
and is a pure waste.

Mark Thorson said:

Michael Kuettner said:

"Mark Thorson" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag

Quoted message said:

Note that air conditioners are mentioned in the
very first sentence.

Err, yes. So what ?
Standby doesn't mean "switched off".

When Andy mentioned air conditioners, you just flatly
said "Wrong.". You, in fact, were wrong. Air conditioners
most certainly are one of the problematic appliances.

Some of the newer ones that have electronic controls are, but the bulk
of the window type A/Cs out there are still mechanical controls and draw
zero standby power when off.

"Mark Thorson" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Michael Kuettner said:

"Mark Thorson" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag

Quoted message said:

Note that air conditioners are mentioned in the
very first sentence.

Err, yes. So what ?
Standby doesn't mean "switched off".

When Andy mentioned air conditioners, you just flatly
said "Wrong.". You, in fact, were wrong. Air conditioners
most certainly are one of the problematic appliances.

You haven't read my reply, it seems.
I'll repost it below.
I see no air conditioners mentioned between "A/C appliance
plugged in" and "Wrong".
Feel free to say "Sorry, I've misread.".

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner

<quote the original reply>

Andy schrieb

Quoted message said:

On the TV news the winter savings segment mentioned that every plugged in A/C
appliance plugged in still draws electricity whether on or off.

Wrong.

Quoted message said:

I switched off the air conditioner circuits and unplugged countless chargers
and 'puters I don't use. I unplugged the printer and lots of other things
that seemingly suck up juice.

Might buy me a few bottles of wine until spring?

One factoid (claimed, depending on wattage and kw/h cost) a computer will
while turned off will cost $6.02. (.02 added for dramatics! 🙂)

Nope. Not a "turned off" computer.
A computer in "sleep mode".
The same is true for all other electrical devices.
Just make sure the the gadget you buy has an "ON/OFF" switch.
Don't use the remote control to turn off the TV, use the switch.

<end quote>

Michael Kuettner said:

I see no air conditioners mentioned between "A/C appliance
plugged in" and "Wrong".
Feel free to say "Sorry, I've misread.".

I think I see the problem. In the U.S., A/C usually
means "air conditioner", not "alternating current".
We use "AC" to mean "alternating current".

"Pete C." <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Michael Kuettner said:

Andy schrieb

Quoted message said:

On the TV news the winter savings segment mentioned that every plugged in
A/C
appliance plugged in still draws electricity whether on or off.

Wrong.

Quoted message said:

I switched off the air conditioner circuits and unplugged countless
chargers
and 'puters I don't use. I unplugged the printer and lots of other things
that seemingly suck up juice.

Might buy me a few bottles of wine until spring?

One factoid (claimed, depending on wattage and kw/h cost) a computer will
while turned off will cost $6.02. (.02 added for dramatics! 🙂)

Nope. Not a "turned off" computer.

Yes, a computer in "turned off" mode, if it has a soft touch electronic
power switch as nearly all do these days. Only a computer with a "real"
power switch is actually really off when "off" 🙂

That's why I've said that one should look for devices with an "ON/OFF"
switch.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A computer in "sleep mode".

In sleep mode most computers are at another intermediate power
consumption level, one higher than "power off" standby but lower than
"full on".

You're again using standby as a synonym for off.
USAn vocabulary seems to have changed.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The same is true for all other electrical devices.
Just make sure the the gadget you buy has an "ON/OFF" switch.
Don't use the remote control to turn off the TV, use the switch.

When was the last time you save a TV with a real power switch?

I'm seeing one right now, for example.

Quoted message said:

Pretty much all current consumer TVs have electronic power switches that are
functionally equivalent to the power button on the remote control. The
TV remains minimally powered with the IR receiver circuitry active so it
can respond to the remote to "turn on".

Not over here.
I've switched off the TV with the real power switch. It's impossible
to turn it on with the remote. (I've just tried that again).
If I'd chosen to switch the TV to "standby" with the remote control, I
could activate it with the remote.
But then the bugger wouldn't be "switched off".

Quoted message said:

These standby power loads are pretty tiny individually, but over the
typical household they can add up to a fair amount. In economic terms a
typical family might spend $10 per month for this standby power. Not
hugely significant economically, and some of that standby power does
provide actual functionality / convenience, but in many cases it doesn't
and is a pure waste.

Simple recipe :

You need
1 soldering iron
soldering tin
wire cutters
1 switch

Cut one wire before the transformator.
Use iron & tin to insert switch into the cut.
Voila !

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner

PS : I've checked all our devices and appliances after writing
this; there's not a single on which could be activated by the remote
after using the ON/OFF - switch on the apparatus.

Mark Thorson schrieb :

Quoted message said:

Michael Kuettner said:

I see no air conditioners mentioned between "A/C appliance
plugged in" and "Wrong".
Feel free to say "Sorry, I've misread.".

I think I see the problem. In the U.S., A/C usually
means "air conditioner", not "alternating current".
We use "AC" to mean "alternating current".

Not the only problem.
You also use switched (or turned) off for standby mode
(not you personally, but the USA in general, it seems).
That's why I've mentioned the real on/off switch.

So let us put it this way : If you have an on/off switch between
the power outlet and the trafo, the device will consume no power
when the switch is in the off - position, OK ?

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner

Michael Kuettner said:

"Pete C." <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag

Quoted message said:

Yes, a computer in "turned off" mode, if it has a soft touch electronic
power switch as nearly all do these days. Only a computer with a "real"
power switch is actually really off when "off" 🙂

That's why I've said that one should look for devices with an "ON/OFF"
switch.

Unfortunately most people don't have the expertise to tell the
difference.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A computer in "sleep mode".

In sleep mode most computers are at another intermediate power
consumption level, one higher than "power off" standby but lower than
"full on".

You're again using standby as a synonym for off.
USAn vocabulary seems to have changed.

No, that's why "power off" is in quotes.

Real off - turned off with an true power switch, or unplugged - 0W power
consumption

"power off" standby - mostly off, only a few W power consumption, when
turned on requires a full boot

"sleep mode" standby - half off, few tens of W power consumption, drive,
monitor, etc. off, on wake up resumes from previous state, no boot
required.

Full on - everything powered, 100-200W power consumption, drives,
monitor, etc. on.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The same is true for all other electrical devices.
Just make sure the the gadget you buy has an "ON/OFF" switch.
Don't use the remote control to turn off the TV, use the switch.

When was the last time you save a TV with a real power switch?

I'm seeing one right now, for example.

I haven't seen a consumer TV with a real power switch in at least a
decade. Professional grade video monitors, yes, but not any consumer
grade.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Pretty much all current consumer TVs have electronic power switches that are
functionally equivalent to the power button on the remote control. The
TV remains minimally powered with the IR receiver circuitry active so it
can respond to the remote to "turn on".

Not over here.
I've switched off the TV with the real power switch. It's impossible
to turn it on with the remote. (I've just tried that again).
If I'd chosen to switch the TV to "standby" with the remote control, I
could activate it with the remote.
But then the bugger wouldn't be "switched off".

You seem to have a different product line available, perhaps some local
country regulation requiring a real power switch. They certainly aren't
available on the consumer lines in the US.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

These standby power loads are pretty tiny individually, but over the
typical household they can add up to a fair amount. In economic terms a
typical family might spend $10 per month for this standby power. Not
hugely significant economically, and some of that standby power does
provide actual functionality / convenience, but in many cases it doesn't
and is a pure waste.

Simple recipe :

You need
1 soldering iron
soldering tin
wire cutters
1 switch

Cut one wire before the transformator.
Use iron & tin to insert switch into the cut.
Voila !

Well, there goes your warranty...

In the US most folks who want to kill standby power use power strips for
this purpose.

Quoted message said:

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner

PS : I've checked all our devices and appliances after writing
this; there's not a single on which could be activated by the remote
after using the ON/OFF - switch on the apparatus.

Very different than stuff here.

Oh pshaw, on Wed 14 Nov 2007 03:47:02p, Andy meant to say...

Quoted message said:

On the TV news the winter savings segment mentioned that every plugged
in A/C appliance plugged in still draws electricity whether on or off.

I agree. Most do. Here in AZ, we're as likely to need A/C on the
occvasional winter day as the rest of the year.

We do nothing different throughout the year, but the lack of need of the
A/C during the winter months lowers our power overall power consumption by
at least 2/3.

I don't care enough about the whole thing to go around the house turning
off every possible source of power use. In the majority of cases, it would
mean resetting timers and clocks every time you wanted to turn them back
on. That I will NOT do.

--
Wayne Boatwright

(to e-mail me direct, replace cox dot net with gmail dot com)
______________________________________________________________

Any time, any place, our snipers can drop you.
Have a nice day.

Sheldon said:

Actually there's a monetary savings by permitting residual power
rather than fully opening the circuit by any means, whether by opening
a line switch or by pulling the plug... every time an electronic
appliance needs to restart from dead off it loses a relatively large
portion of it's usable life.. it's best to leave these devices in
virtual "sleep" mode... would be like pulling your automobile battery
every night, much of the computer circuitry will be prone to damage
from start up from zero. Leave your electronic appliances operate as
intended, you may save a few pennies per year per appliance in power
but you'll be replacing expensive appliances more often, significantly
more often...

You're misapplying the information unfortunately.

An electronic devices lifetime is heavily dependent on the thermal
cycling it experiences which stresses in particular the less than hair
thin wires that connect the IC "die" inside the IC package to the leads
that connect outside the device. When left powered full time those
thermal cycles are eliminated and only the chemical processes related to
residual contamination on the die are really in effect, though the
chemical reactions happen faster at higher temperatures.

When these appliances are in "standby", most of the unit really is
powered down and therefore it still experiences the thermal cycling.
Only the small portion of the electronics that is powered during
standby, such as an IR receiver and CPU, are not experiencing the
thermal cycling so the overall product life expectancy remains about the
same as if you fully power it down.

Quoted message said:

light bulbs the same, don't turn them off just because
you left the room for a few minutes. Light bulbs aren't cheap and
they die prematurely with constant switching.

Again, a thermal cycling issue, and a much more drastic one than in
electronics. Of course you should be mostly using CFLs these days so
it's a little different.

Quoted message said:

The last time I saw a TV that consumes no power when not operating
(unless you pull the plug) it had a mechanical tuner, vacuum tube
circuitry, and remotes weren't invented yet.

I've seen them much more recently, but they were all professional grade
video monitors, not consumer TV sets.

Quoted message said:

All modern TVs consume
some small amount of power when turned off but are still plugged in...
I don't believe TVs operate differently in Europe or anywhere else...
the power switch on the modern TV is exactly the same as the one on
the remote... if you unplug your TV that remote ain't turning it on no
way, no how... In fact just this week I was reminded of this fact
when I phoned Sony service because my TV was cycling on and off all by
itself. I was told to unplug it for a full minute so it could return
to it's default settings... was told its settings were probably
scrambled by cell phones and/or garage door openers or even neighbor's
TV remotes, and so long as plugged in it couldn't reboot in order to
undo the scrambled default settings. Now it works fine.

Unfortunately the concept of watchdog timers hasn't caught on too well
in the consumer electronics world, otherwise the TV would have rebooted
itself after being scrambled for a few seconds.

Wayne Boatwright said:

Oh pshaw, on Wed 14 Nov 2007 03:47:02p, Andy meant to say...

Quoted message said:

On the TV news the winter savings segment mentioned that every plugged
in A/C appliance plugged in still draws electricity whether on or off.

I agree. Most do. Here in AZ, we're as likely to need A/C on the
occvasional winter day as the rest of the year.

We do nothing different throughout the year, but the lack of need of the
A/C during the winter months lowers our power overall power consumption by
at least 2/3.

I don't care enough about the whole thing to go around the house turning
off every possible source of power use. In the majority of cases, it would
mean resetting timers and clocks every time you wanted to turn them back
on. That I will NOT do.

Managing power consumption down to the last wall wart is really only
practical and sane for those living off-grid with independent power
systems like solar or wind where if you waste power you end up in the
dark later on.

Oh pshaw, on Wed 14 Nov 2007 08:16:12p, Pete C. meant to say...

Quoted message said:

Wayne Boatwright said:

Oh pshaw, on Wed 14 Nov 2007 03:47:02p, Andy meant to say...

Quoted message said:

On the TV news the winter savings segment mentioned that every
plugged in A/C appliance plugged in still draws electricity whether
on or off.

I agree. Most do. Here in AZ, we're as likely to need A/C on the
occvasional winter day as the rest of the year.

We do nothing different throughout the year, but the lack of need of
the A/C during the winter months lowers our power overall power
consumption by at least 2/3.

I don't care enough about the whole thing to go around the house
turning off every possible source of power use. In the majority of
cases, it would mean resetting timers and clocks every time you wanted
to turn them back on. That I will NOT do.

Managing power consumption down to the last wall wart is really only
practical and sane for those living off-grid with independent power
systems like solar or wind where if you waste power you end up in the
dark later on.

Yes, and that's a totally different situation. I would probably do the
same under those circumstances. of course, living off the grid would
probablly guide me to choose appliances without constantly powered
features.

--
Wayne Boatwright

(to e-mail me direct, replace cox dot net with gmail dot com)
______________________________________________________________

Any time, any place, our snipers can drop you.
Have a nice day.

Wayne Boatwright said:

Oh pshaw, on Wed 14 Nov 2007 08:16:12p, Pete C. meant to say...

Quoted message said:

Wayne Boatwright said:

Oh pshaw, on Wed 14 Nov 2007 03:47:02p, Andy meant to say...

> On the TV news the winter savings segment mentioned that every
> plugged in A/C appliance plugged in still draws electricity whether
> on or off.

I agree. Most do. Here in AZ, we're as likely to need A/C on the
occvasional winter day as the rest of the year.

We do nothing different throughout the year, but the lack of need of
the A/C during the winter months lowers our power overall power
consumption by at least 2/3.

I don't care enough about the whole thing to go around the house
turning off every possible source of power use. In the majority of
cases, it would mean resetting timers and clocks every time you wanted
to turn them back on. That I will NOT do.

Managing power consumption down to the last wall wart is really only
practical and sane for those living off-grid with independent power
systems like solar or wind where if you waste power you end up in the
dark later on.

Yes, and that's a totally different situation. I would probably do the
same under those circumstances. of course, living off the grid would
probablly guide me to choose appliances without constantly powered
features.

Yep. Off-grid folks have been known to disconnect the auto defrost
timers / heaters in their refrigerators to eliminate the intermittent
high consumption. They have found however that their satellite TV and
Internet receivers have to be powered full time since they take a
considerable amount of time to "reboot" after a power outage.

Wayne Boatwright said:

Oh pshaw, on Wed 14 Nov 2007 08:16:12p, Pete C. meant to say...

Quoted message said:

Wayne Boatwright wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oh pshaw, on Wed 14 Nov 2007 03:47:02p, Andy meant to say...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> On the TV news the winter savings segment mentioned that every
> plugged in A/C appliance plugged in still draws electricity whether
> on or off.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I agree. �Most do. �Here in AZ, we're as likely to needA/C on the
occvasional winter day as the rest of the year.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We do nothing different throughout the year, but the lack of need of
the A/C during the winter months lowers our power overall power
consumption by at least 2/3.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't care enough about the whole thing to go around the house
turning off every possible source of power use. �In the majority of
cases, it would mean resetting timers and clocks every time you wanted
to turn them back on. �That I will NOT do.

Quoted message said:

Managing power consumption down to the last wall wart is really only
practical and sane for those living off-grid with independent power
systems like solar or wind where if you waste power you end up in the
dark later on.

Yes, and that's a totally different situation. �I would probably do the
same under those circumstances. �of course, living off the grid would
probablly guide me to choose appliances without constantly powered
features.

I don't think you would, first where would you find them, and second
the residual power consumed is in milliwatts... the saving would
amount to using only one sheet of TP and using both sides. With many
devices there isn't any advantgage derived from being totally shut
down and in fact that can end up being even more costly... that's why
truckers leave diesel motors idling. And anyway, folks who use solar
and wind to power their homes (and there are a few around here) aren't
saving any money, the cost of the equipment prohibits any monetary
advantage, those few who indulge their whim do so strictly to make a
political statement.

Sheldon

"Wayne Boatwright" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I don't care enough about the whole thing to go around the house turning
off every possible source of power use. In the majority of cases, it
would
mean resetting timers and clocks every time you wanted to turn them back
on. That I will NOT do.

--
Wayne Boatwright

Many (US)homes have switched wall outlets in the living area. Plug your TV,
Stereo, and/or PC into those outlets and you can flip the wall switch off on
your way to bed. Leave the TIVO/cable box and clocks on an unswitched
circuit to keep them powered up.

"Andy" <q> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

One factoid (claimed, depending on wattage and kw/h cost) a computer will
while turned off will cost $6.02. (.02 added for dramatics! 🙂)

They fail to mention one fact. What happens when that electricity is used?
It turns to heat. It help heat your house. At times of the year that you
must add heat, the computer and laser printer will aid you. In summer, of
course, you have to pay to remove that heat with the AC.