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OT - Why no war.

Started by Sergio Servadio · · Last activity · 131 posts · 5,968 views

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Cycling Equipment
Published
31 March 2003
Last activity
18 April 2003
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Sergio Servadio
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  1. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Though off-topic with bicycles, I feel the need to put into
    English for you, people I have corresponded with for some time and whom I pretend to be acquainted
    with, a message written a while ago for an Italian friend of mine.

    Ride into PEACE.

    Sergio Pisa
    _____________________________________________________________________________

    Quoted message said:

    about the war ...


    ... we hold rather different opinions.

    There is no need for us to hide behind somebody else' rationale, be it honest or faudolent, to be in
    favor or against the war. So, your rebuttal of France's, Russia's and China's stands and reasonings
    does not diminish the urge for your own evaluation and judgment.

    Never mind there are always people who are, almost genetically, opposed to any initiative, ever
    unable to bear responsibility.

    In practise it is impossible to justify war, any war. It is so because its outburst goes too far
    beyond what has preceeded it. War can never be morally acceptable, never a 'just' retaliation. All
    the more so, the more outbalanced are the contendants.

    Even worse, when the attacking party does so after such a long propaganda campaign full of lies and
    alleged wrong reasons put forward with the intent, so badly missed, to rally support from the
    international community.

    Which so bad faults against the U.S. can one ascribe to Saddam Hussein? How much do you think the
    U.S. really care about the Kurds, slaughtered and persecuted both in Irak and in Turkey? How much do
    the U.S. really value civil rights, the western style, in other Countries? In which other Countries?
    Why there, and not elsewhere?

    Have you forgotten Allende? Have you forgotten Vietnam?, where the heroic resistence was universal
    and Ho Chi Min's Communist Party was only a component, initially only a minor component, of the
    liberation movement.

    Aren't there still so many countries where democracy, our style of course, is not established and
    which, nevertheless, are justly respected?

    When war, whichever war, outbrakes the party that thrusts it is always at fault: for having brought
    the clash to such a dramatic level. The nation that gets attacked with such a fury has the right to
    defend herself, with whatever means.

    Any defence war is just and heroic. Perhaps any revenge, for so much undured horror, is just.

    What follows then?

    Sergio

  2. Sergio SERVADIO said:

    In practise it is impossible to justify war, any war.


    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Any defence war is just and heroic.

    A bit of illogic that, eh?

    By "defence war" you include the defense of Kuwait I assume, and the continuation of that same war
    due to Iraq's refusal to comply with the terms of the cease-fire.

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

  3. Mark Hickey said:
    Sergio SERVADIO said:

    In practise it is impossible to justify war, any war.


    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Any defence war is just and heroic.


    A bit of illogic that, eh? By "defence war" you include the defense of Kuwait I assume, and the
    continuation of that same war due to Iraq's refusal to comply with the terms of the cease-fire.

    Bad logic? Don't think so. Perhaps not stringest wording that allowed you to play fussy about it.

    Please, change it into:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    In practise it is impossible to justify [starting] war, any war.

    By 'defence war' I mean a war that you must wage because someone from so far away is bombing from
    well above your roof and is chaising you door to door out of your own house where you found shelter.

    Is it crystal clear, now?

    Sergo Pisa

  4. Please sell your old stuff in the rec.bicycles.MARKETPLACE newsgroup. Never here. Thanks!

    "Sergio SERVADIO" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Though off-topic with bicycles, I feel the need to put
    into English for you, people I have

  5. "Sergio SERVADIO" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Mark Hickey said:
    Sergio SERVADIO said:

    In practise it is impossible to justify war, any war.


    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Any defence war is just and heroic.


    A bit of illogic that, eh? By "defence war" you include the defense of Kuwait I assume, and the
    continuation of that same war due to Iraq's refusal to comply with the terms of the cease-fire.

    Bad logic? Don't think so. Perhaps not stringest wording that allowed you to play fussy about it.

    Please, change it into:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    In practise it is impossible to justify [starting] war, any war.

    By 'defence war' I mean a war that you must wage because someone from so far away is bombing from
    well above your roof and is chaising you door to door out of your own house where you found
    shelter.

    Is it crystal clear, now?

    Sergo Pisa

    Quite clear to me. One certainly expects the regime and its supporters to fight back fiercely
    against the US-led forces. Not only have they been attacked, but once their defeat is accomplished
    they will also have to answer to the majority population they've criminally oppressed for decades.
    "Rock and a hard place" ring a bell?

    The true heart of the Iraqi people simply cannot be known until all are convinced that they're no
    longer at risk from the regime and it's thugs, and that the US is not going to bail on them, as
    happened after the first Gulf War.

    Yes, war is a horror and always will be. But it's not always the worst possible horror, and this is
    not simply a matter of violence vs. nonviolence; of injustice vs. justice. The moral basis of any
    war is that the violence done in its cause will lead to a net reduction in the total violence and
    injustice done over time, and only time will tell the true tale of this one.

    The final chapters are long yet to be written, but will depend on the quality of life in Iraq, its
    neighbors, and the US - ten years from now and beyond. Impossible to know at this point, but one can
    only hope the right choices have been made.

    We will certainly see...

    SB

  6. Quoted message said:

    What follows then?

    Sergio

    Sergio:

    The real reasons behind this war are quite hidden and actually unknown to most of us, we can
    only guess.

    At this point I can only feel empathy and sadness for those who are hurt or who are in pain. I think
    of injured American soldiers in pain from a wound as I think of an Iraqi child who may be bleeding
    and just clinging to life.

    I can only hope as an American that the United States will undertake the responsibility it has
    assumed by attacking Iraq and reconstruct it in the best interests of the people of Iraq. This most
    certainly means giving them complete authority over their country and its natural resources.

    This most certainly means foregoing any national interest we have have in their natural resources,
    our goals must be noble, our conscious must be clear.

    To the burden of Afganistan, we have now added Iraq. My we respond with honor and honesty.

    jon isaacs

  7. The vast majority of the muslim world has failed miserably in the continuing struggle towards
    modernity, and the embrace of ideals such as liberty, self-rule, and equal rights that the free (and
    successful) countries of the world hold dear. As a result of this failure, these countries have bred
    a threat to that freedom, and the way of life that Americans and others have fought for for hundreds
    of years. In the long term view, what the US is doing is compassionate beyond comprehension, using
    our power, sacrificing lives, accepting risk and cost, in order to give the islamic world a chance
    at freedom. If we don't start the ball rolling now, and allow this threat to escalate, the choices
    we have in 10-20 years to eliminate it will be much more limited, and infinitely more grave.

    At least your Prime Minister, Silvio Berlusconi, has a clue...

    "We should be conscious of the superiority of our civilization, which consists of a value system
    that has given people widespread prosperity in those countries that embrace it, and guarantees
    respect for human rights and religion....This respect certainly does not exist in Islamic
    countries."

    "Sergio SERVADIO" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Though off-topic with bicycles, I feel the need to put
    into English for you, people I have corresponded with for some time and whom I pretend to be
    acquainted with, a message written a while ago for an Italian friend of mine.

    Ride into PEACE.

    Sergio Pisa


    ____________________________________________________________________________
    _

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    about the war ...


    ... we hold rather different opinions.

    There is no need for us to hide behind somebody else' rationale, be it honest or faudolent, to be
    in favor or against the war. So, your rebuttal of France's, Russia's and China's stands and
    reasonings does not diminish the urge for your own evaluation and judgment.

    Never mind there are always people who are, almost genetically, opposed to any initiative, ever
    unable to bear responsibility.

    In practise it is impossible to justify war, any war. It is so because its outburst goes too far
    beyond what has preceeded it. War can never be morally acceptable, never a 'just' retaliation. All
    the more so, the more outbalanced are the contendants.

    Even worse, when the attacking party does so after such a long propaganda campaign full of lies
    and alleged wrong reasons put forward with the intent, so badly missed, to rally support from the
    international community.

    Which so bad faults against the U.S. can one ascribe to Saddam Hussein? How much do you think the
    U.S. really care about the Kurds, slaughtered and persecuted both in Irak and in Turkey? How much
    do the U.S. really value civil rights, the western style, in other Countries? In which other
    Countries? Why there, and not elsewhere?

    Have you forgotten Allende? Have you forgotten Vietnam?, where the heroic resistence was universal
    and Ho Chi Min's Communist Party was only a component, initially only a minor component, of the
    liberation movement.

    Aren't there still so many countries where democracy, our style of course, is not established and
    which, nevertheless, are justly respected?

    When war, whichever war, outbrakes the party that thrusts it is always at fault: for having
    brought the clash to such a dramatic level. The nation that gets attacked with such a fury has the
    right to defend herself, with whatever means.

    Any defence war is just and heroic. Perhaps any revenge, for so much undured horror, is just.

    What follows then?

    Sergio

  8. Sergio, perhaps I ought to just put into words my feelings about this war:

    There are no just wars. EVER. There are only necessary wars and unnecessary wars. Vietnam is an
    example of an unnecessary war but Iraq is plainly a necessary one.

    It isn't easy to justify these sorts of wars to people who don't have any blood stake in the war
    presently, but I'll try.

    After the Iran/Iraq war the USA had tried to reach some political impass with Saddam Hussein.
    Because stable governments in the area that contains more than half of the world's energy supply is
    important we were willing to ignore the fact that Hussein was a certified butcher who tortures and
    murders his people wholesale. It isn't as if it were something that was unknown - during a state
    department interview Hussein pointedly admitted to it in a matter-of-fact tone as if torture and
    murder were only normal means to power.

    The USA would prefer to stay completely out of the internal workings of other countries but
    sometimes it pays for us to stick out noses in. President Eisenhower had intended that we would
    supply a graceful way for France to exit Indochina (Vietnam) from which we would then bow out in
    short order. Unfortunately Eisenhower was replaced with Kennedy who firstly caused a near
    catastrophe in Cuba and then tried to use Vietnam as an example to show that he really could wage a
    successful military campaign. Johnson continued in that format and the terrible consequences of that
    sort of thinking are history.

    But Iraq is not the same case. For one thing, when we were trying to befriend Iraq in an effort to
    have some moderating effect on their policies we sold Saddam some presses ostensibly so that he
    could print high quality Iraqi currency. Saddam used these presses to counterfeit American money so
    lavishly that at one point one out of every five $20 bills was an Iraqi counterfeit so good that it
    couldn't be detected by anyone but the most skilled experts.

    He used this money to build a staggering arsenal and to begin building seriously dangerous weapons
    of mass destruction. Perhaps you remember Israel bombing the Iraqi nuclear site which we now all
    understand was primarily for generating weapons grade radioactive material. We also know that he was
    building a super cannon and perhaps what you don't know is that cannon could have been capable of
    shooting a shell entirely around the world. The expert he was using had a 'normal' cannon in his
    front yard on the border between Montreal and the USA. He was quoted as saying that he couldn't
    reveal the range of that particular cannon but that he could easily hit Mexico City. That's roughly
    4,000 miles and a super version of such a cannon would give him the power of an ICBM with a far
    smaller chance for intercepting the weapon.

    France and Germany, China and Russia have all been selling arms and materials to Saddam sub rosa,
    illegally and despite the fact that all of them signed on to the UN limitations.

    Saddam also used the money to fund terrorists and terrorist activities all over the world. This is
    almost impossible to prove openly because intelligence sources for this kind of thing are
    exceedingly dificult to trace and showing how the information is gotten would invalidate using those
    sources in the future. So many of the real proofs of what Hussein has been doing must remain top
    secret for many decades. Remember that it was 50 years before some really important intellgence
    wources from WW II were revealed.

    Most importantly Saddam has been trying to find an effective terrorist organization to deliver some
    extremely dangerous weapons of mass destruction into the United States. We have already arrested an
    American hispanic gang member who offered to set off a dirty (nuclear) bomb in the USA and received
    $10,000 in cash to begin his operation. He was siezed at an airport with the money on him. Saddam
    has been courting bin Laden for many years because he thought that Al Qaida was the best chance for
    delivering a biological or chemical weapon into an American city. Fortunately for us, bin Laden
    can't stand Hussein and always turned him down.

    Nevertheless it has become clear that Hussein is trying to attack the USA and to do it on an
    extremely dangerous level. It was no longer a question about if he could succeed, because 9/11
    showed that eventually he would succeed.

    All this has made it necessary to take this awful regime out now. We cannot wait for tens or
    hundreds of thousands of casualties. We cannot wait in case he tries his hand at lesser targets like
    Tel Aviv or Rome.

    We are all preying for peace but it isn't Italian blood that would be spilled if we wait. And it is
    less important to you that American lives are lost than it is to us. While you advise us to wait
    from a position of almost absolute ignorance, we have been advised by out own government with tens
    of thousands of information sources, thousands of analysts and hundreds of advisors that this man is
    dangerous and growing more dangerous by the second. How is it that you could possibly be better
    informed than these people and how is it possible that they are all in a conspiracy to make a profit
    in this endevor?

    Now that we are committed to the war we cannot turn back. Last time we turned back tens of thousands
    of Iraqi civilians were tortured and murdered because they sought their own freedoms. We cannot turn
    back a second time and allow the very hope for freedom to die in the hearts of these people.

    For those who think that oil is an issue let me be the first to agree. Though not in the manner that
    many may think. Oil runs the whole world. Iraqi oil could threaten Europe or it can run Europe. We
    prefer the later. It isn't important who is making the profits from the oil as long a it's flowing
    and Europeans are eating and sleeping in peace instead of warring on each other for valuable natural
    resources. The fact of the matter is that the USA is in a better position to live without Iraqi oil
    than virtually the rest of the world.

    "Sergio SERVADIO" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Though off-topic with bicycles, I feel the need to put
    into English


    for

    Quoted message said:

    you, people I have corresponded with for some time and whom I


    pretend

    Quoted message said:

    to be acquainted with, a message written a while ago for an Italian


    friend

    Quoted message said:

    of mine.

    Ride into PEACE.

    Sergio Pisa


    ______________________________________________________________________
    _______

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    about the war ...


    ... we hold rather different opinions.

    There is no need for us to hide behind somebody else' rationale, be


    it

    Quoted message said:

    honest or faudolent, to be in favor or against the war. So, your rebuttal of France's, Russia's
    and China's stands and


    reasonings

    Quoted message said:

    does not diminish the urge for your own evaluation and judgment.

    Never mind there are always people who are, almost genetically,


    opposed

    Quoted message said:

    to any initiative, ever unable to bear responsibility.

    In practise it is impossible to justify war, any war. It is so because its outburst goes too far
    beyond what has preceeded


    it.

    Quoted message said:

    War can never be morally acceptable, never a 'just' retaliation. All the more so, the more
    outbalanced are the contendants.

    Even worse, when the attacking party does so after such a long


    propaganda

    Quoted message said:

    campaign full of lies and alleged wrong reasons put forward with the intent, so badly missed, to
    rally support from the international community.

    Which so bad faults against the U.S. can one ascribe to Saddam


    Hussein?

    Quoted message said:

    How much do you think the U.S. really care about the Kurds,


    slaughtered

    Quoted message said:

    and persecuted both in Irak and in Turkey? How much do the U.S. really value civil rights, the
    western style,


    in

    Quoted message said:

    other Countries? In which other Countries? Why there, and not


    elsewhere?

    Quoted message said:


    Have you forgotten Allende? Have you forgotten Vietnam?, where the heroic resistence was


    universal and

    Quoted message said:

    Ho Chi Min's Communist Party was only a component, initially only a


    minor

    Quoted message said:

    component, of the liberation movement.

    Aren't there still so many countries where democracy, our style of


    course,

    Quoted message said:

    is not established and which, nevertheless, are justly respected?

    When war, whichever war, outbrakes the party that thrusts it is


    always at

    Quoted message said:

    fault: for having brought the clash to such a dramatic level. The nation that gets attacked with
    such a fury has the right to


    defend

    Quoted message said:

    herself, with whatever means.

    Any defence war is just and heroic. Perhaps any revenge, for so much undured horror, is just.

    What follows then?

    Sergio

  9. Quoted message said:

    The vast majority of the muslim world has failed miserably in the continuing struggle towards
    modernity, and the embrace of ideals such as liberty, self-rule, and equal rights that the free
    (and successful) countries of the world hold dear.

    Are not these countries free to believe and live as they do? Must they believe as we do? Must they
    act as we do?

    I hope not or they wouldn't be free.

    Judging the success of others by ones own values is narrow and self centered.

    A foriegner might read what you wrote and respond: "Mr American, your pants have fallen and your
    bottom is showing."

    Jon Isaacs

  10. "KBH" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2I4ia.283401$3D1.154396@sccrnsc01...

    Quoted message said:

    The vast majority of the muslim world has failed miserably in the


    continuing

    Quoted message said:

    struggle towards modernity, and the embrace of ideals such as liberty, self-rule, and equal rights
    that the free (and successful) countries of


    the

    Quoted message said:

    world hold dear. As a result of this failure, these countries have bred a threat to that freedom,
    and the way of life that Americans and others have fought for for hundreds of years. In the long
    term view, what the US is doing is compassionate beyond comprehension, using our power,
    sacrificing lives, accepting risk and cost, in order to give the islamic world a


    chance

    Quoted message said:

    at freedom. If we don't start the ball rolling now, and allow this threat to escalate, the choices
    we have in 10-20 years to eliminate it will be


    much

    Quoted message said:

    more limited, and infinitely more grave.

    Ya!

    That's why we restored that Bastion of Democracy, the government of the Emir of Kuwait, to power in
    Gulf War 1. And why our country has military bases in Saudi Arabia - to protect the democracy and
    pillar of religious freedom there.

    LOL - you dumbass.

    The Emir of Kuwait wouldn't return to his country after Gulf War 1 until his gold bathroom fixtures
    (looted by the Iraqis) had been restored to his palace. The sort of leadership example that men
    will die for.

    Officially, the Emir of Kuwait has 37 children, but the unofficial count is ~120.

  11. Quoted message said:

    Are not these countries free to believe and live as they do?

    When they are a threat to us, no.

    Quoted message said:

    Must they act as we do?

    I hope not or they wouldn't be free.

    Judging the success of others by ones own values is narrow and self


    centered.

    Not when my values represent good and theirs evil. You subscribe to the moral equivalence school of
    thought, which I disregard as dangerous and myopic. Good is good, evil is evil.

    ...but you're right, the brutal regimes of the Middle East are very successful murderous
    dictatorships.

  12. In rec.bicycles.racing Tom Kunich said:

    Sergio, perhaps I ought to just put into words my feelings about this war:

    Quoted message said:

    The USA would prefer to stay completely out of the internal workings of other countries but
    sometimes it pays for us to stick out noses in.

    Tom never heard of the PNAC and the study that Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, etc. commissioned and
    was delivered in September 2000. It clearly expresses an agenda to be nose, torso, and legs in the
    working of other countries. The foreign minister of Suadi Arabia spoke directly to the concerns
    raised by this agenda. Tom, don't even bother baiting me on this. Here is the link. Whatever
    rebuttal you have, please address it specifically to this link's contents. Help readers out and cite
    what pages you are discussing:

    newamericancentury.orgRebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

    Quoted message said:

    President Eisenhower had intended that we would supply a graceful way for France to exit Indochina
    (Vietnam) from which we would then bow out in short order. Unfortunately Eisenhower was replaced
    with Kennedy who firstly caused a near catastrophe in Cuba and then tried to use Vietnam as an
    example to show that he really could wage a successful military campaign. Johnson continued in
    that format and the terrible consequences of that sort of thinking are history.

    Quoted message said:

    But Iraq is not the same case. For one thing, when we were trying to befriend Iraq in an effort to
    have some moderating effect on their policies we sold Saddam some presses ostensibly so that he
    could print high quality Iraqi currency. Saddam used these presses to counterfeit American money
    so lavishly that at one point one out of every five $20 bills was an Iraqi counterfeit so good
    that it couldn't be detected by anyone but the most skilled experts.

    Quoted message said:

    He used this money to build a staggering arsenal and to begin building seriously dangerous weapons
    of mass destruction. Perhaps you remember Israel bombing the Iraqi nuclear site which we now all
    understand was primarily for generating weapons grade radioactive material. We also

    Perhaps Tom remembers the famous handshake between Hussein and Rumsfeld sealing the delivery of WMD
    in 1983? Make sure you adderss this. Forget about me.

    Quoted message said:

    know that he was building a super cannon and perhaps what you don't know is that cannon could have
    been capable of shooting a shell entirely around the world. The expert he was using had a 'normal'
    cannon in his front yard on the border between Montreal and the USA. He was quoted as saying that
    he couldn't reveal the range of that particular cannon but that he could easily hit Mexico City.
    That's roughly 4,000 miles and a super version of such a cannon would give him the power of an
    ICBM with a far smaller chance for intercepting the weapon.

    Quoted message said:

    France and Germany, China and Russia have all been selling arms and materials to Saddam sub rosa,
    illegally and despite the fact that all of them signed on to the UN limitations.

    Quoted message said:

    Saddam also used the money to fund terrorists and terrorist activities all over the world. This is
    almost impossible to prove openly because intelligence sources for this kind of thing are
    exceedingly dificult to trace and showing how the information is gotten would invalidate using
    those sources in the future. So many of the real proofs of what Hussein has been doing must remain
    top secret for many decades. Remember that it was 50 years before some really important
    intellgence wources from WW II were revealed.

    Quoted message said:

    Most importantly Saddam has been trying to find an effective terrorist organization to deliver
    some extremely dangerous weapons of mass destruction into the United States. We have already
    arrested an American hispanic gang member who offered to set off a dirty (nuclear) bomb in the USA
    and received $10,000 in cash to begin his operation. He was siezed at an airport with the money on
    him. Saddam has been courting bin Laden for many years because he thought that Al Qaida was the
    best chance for delivering a biological or chemical weapon into an American city. Fortunately for
    us, bin Laden can't stand Hussein and always turned him down.

    Quoted message said:

    Nevertheless it has become clear that Hussein is trying to attack the USA and to do it on an
    extremely dangerous level. It was no longer a question about if he could succeed, because 9/11
    showed that eventually he would succeed.

    Back to the PNAC agenda that shows 911 was never the reason for the current agenda. But don't take
    me on. Please address the PNAC document cites above and be sure to help us by referring to the
    specific pages you take issue with.

    Quoted message said:

    All this has made it necessary to take this awful regime out now. We cannot wait for tens or
    hundreds of thousands of casualties. We cannot wait in case he tries his hand at lesser targets
    like Tel Aviv or Rome.

    Quoted message said:

    We are all preying for peace but it isn't Italian blood that would be spilled if we wait. And it
    is less important to you that American lives are lost than it is to us. While you advise us to
    wait from a position of almost absolute ignorance, we have been advised by out own government with
    tens of thousands of information sources, thousands of analysts and hundreds of advisors that this
    man is dangerous and growing more dangerous by the second. How is it that you could possibly be
    better informed than these people and how is it possible that they are all in a conspiracy to make
    a profit in this endevor?

    Quoted message said:

    Now that we are committed to the war we cannot turn back. Last time we turned back tens of
    thousands of Iraqi civilians were tortured and murdered because they sought their own freedoms.
    We cannot turn back a second time and allow the very hope for freedom to die in the hearts of
    these people.

    Tell that to them...

    Quoted message said:

    For those who think that oil is an issue let me be the first to agree. Though not in the manner
    that many may think. Oil runs the whole world. Iraqi oil could threaten Europe or it can run
    Europe. We prefer the later. It isn't important who is making the profits from the oil as long a
    it's flowing and Europeans are eating and sleeping in peace instead of warring on each other for
    valuable natural resources. The fact of the matter is that the USA is in a better position to live
    without Iraqi oil than virtually the rest of the world.

    Quoted message said:

    "Sergio SERVADIO" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Though off-topic with bicycles, I feel the need to put
    into English


    for

    Quoted message said:

    you, people I have corresponded with for some time and whom I


    pretend

    Quoted message said:

    to be acquainted with, a message written a while ago for an Italian


    friend

    Quoted message said:

    of mine.

    Ride into PEACE.

    Sergio Pisa


    ______________________________________________________________________
    _______

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    about the war ...


    ... we hold rather different opinions.

    There is no need for us to hide behind somebody else' rationale, be


    it

    Quoted message said:

    honest or faudolent, to be in favor or against the war. So, your rebuttal of France's, Russia's
    and China's stands and


    reasonings

    Quoted message said:

    does not diminish the urge for your own evaluation and judgment.

    Never mind there are always people who are, almost genetically,


    opposed

    Quoted message said:

    to any initiative, ever unable to bear responsibility.

    In practise it is impossible to justify war, any war. It is so because its outburst goes too far
    beyond what has preceeded


    it.

    Quoted message said:

    War can never be morally acceptable, never a 'just' retaliation. All the more so, the more
    outbalanced are the contendants.

    Even worse, when the attacking party does so after such a long


    propaganda

    Quoted message said:

    campaign full of lies and alleged wrong reasons put forward with the intent, so badly missed, to
    rally support from the international community.

    Which so bad faults against the U.S. can one ascribe to Saddam


    Hussein?

    Quoted message said:

    How much do you think the U.S. really care about the Kurds,


    slaughtered

    Quoted message said:

    and persecuted both in Irak and in Turkey? How much do the U.S. really value civil rights, the
    western style,


    in

    Quoted message said:

    other Countries? In which other Countries? Why there, and not


    elsewhere?

    Quoted message said:


    Have you forgotten Allende? Have you forgotten Vietnam?, where the heroic resistence was


    universal and

    Quoted message said:

    Ho Chi Min's Communist Party was only a component, initially only a


    minor

    Quoted message said:

    component, of the liberation movement.

    Aren't there still so many countries where democracy, our style of


    course,

    Quoted message said:

    is not established and which, nevertheless, are justly respected?

    When war, whichever war, outbrakes the party that thrusts it is


    always at

    Quoted message said:

    fault: for having brought the clash to such a dramatic level. The nation that gets attacked with
    such a fury has the right to


    defend

    Quoted message said:

    herself, with whatever means.

    Any defence war is just and heroic. Perhaps any revenge, for so much undured horror, is just.

    What follows then?

    Sergio


  13. Tom, as I write this, it isn't quite April Fools' day yet, so don't expect me to believe that a
    cannon could shoot a shell around the world, or even hit Mexico City. This is even less believable
    than all the reasons given in this thread for invading Iraq. Let's not kid ourselves- it's all about
    oil, wealth, power, and imperialism, with "freedom" as a paltry excuse.

    Tom Kunich wrote: We also know that he was building a super cannon and perhaps what you don't

    Quoted message said:

    know is that cannon could have been capable of shooting a shell entirely around the world. The
    expert he was using had a 'normal' cannon in his front yard on the border between Montreal and the
    USA. He was quoted as saying that he couldn't reveal the range of that particular cannon but that
    he could easily hit Mexico City. That's roughly 4,000 miles and a super version of such a cannon
    would give him the power of an ICBM with a far smaller chance for intercepting the weapon.

  14. that was an incoherant rant. you aren't even making an argument, just blabbering about something you
    read in an article somewhere.

    kuwait does not foment a direct threat to our citizens, so let them do what they want. That is
    exactly the point I made in my reply to the previous poster. Saudi Arabia on the other hand is a
    breeding ground for islamic terrorists and will have to be dealt with at some point (in the mean
    time we do buy a lot of their oil and its in our interest to see that supply stable).

    and if you're going to bring the argument down to the name calling level, at least make an argument
    (and a good one) that is even remotely relevant to the post.

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "KBH" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2I4ia.283401$3D1.154396@sccrnsc01...

    Quoted message said:

    The vast majority of the muslim world has failed miserably in the


    continuing

    Quoted message said:

    struggle towards modernity, and the embrace of ideals such as liberty, self-rule, and equal
    rights that the free (and successful) countries of


    the

    Quoted message said:

    world hold dear. As a result of this failure, these countries have bred


    a

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    threat to that freedom, and the way of life that Americans and others


    have

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    fought for for hundreds of years. In the long term view, what the US is doing is compassionate
    beyond comprehension, using our power,


    sacrificing

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    lives, accepting risk and cost, in order to give the islamic world a


    chance

    Quoted message said:

    at freedom. If we don't start the ball rolling now, and allow this


    threat

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    to escalate, the choices we have in 10-20 years to eliminate it will be


    much

    Quoted message said:

    more limited, and infinitely more grave.

    Ya!

    That's why we restored that Bastion of Democracy, the government of the


    Emir

    Quoted message said:

    of Kuwait, to power in Gulf War 1. And why our country has military bases


    in

    Quoted message said:

    Saudi Arabia - to protect the democracy and pillar of religious freedom there.

    LOL - you dumbass.

    The Emir of Kuwait wouldn't return to his country after Gulf War 1 until


    his

    Quoted message said:

    gold bathroom fixtures (looted by the Iraqis) had been restored to his palace. The sort of
    leadership example that men will die for.

    Officially, the Emir of Kuwait has 37 children, but the unofficial count


    is

    Quoted message said:

    ~120.

  15. A recent Colin Powell quote is paraphrased something like this:

    "Over the years, the United States has sent many of its fine young men and women into great peril to
    fight for freedom beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for in return is
    enough to bury those that did not return."

    Name a country the the imperial US has colonized? Well, I guess you could say the 2nd and 3rd
    largest economies in the world, Japan and Germany, were crush by the US and rebuilt from the ground
    up (after which we left).

    Please make an argument, instead of just repeating a sign you saw at an anti-war rally.

    "Gary Smiley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Tom, as I write this, it isn't quite April Fools' day yet, so don't expect me to believe that a
    cannon could shoot a shell around the world, or even hit Mexico City. This is even less believable
    than all the reasons given in this thread for invading Iraq. Let's not kid ourselves- it's all
    about oil, wealth, power, and imperialism, with "freedom" as a paltry excuse.

    Tom Kunich wrote: We also know that he was building a super cannon and perhaps what you don't

    Quoted message said:

    know is that cannon could have been capable of shooting a shell entirely around the world. The
    expert he was using had a 'normal' cannon in his front yard on the border between Montreal and
    the USA. He was quoted as saying that he couldn't reveal the range of that particular cannon but
    that he could easily hit Mexico City. That's roughly 4,000 miles and a super version of such a
    cannon would give him the power of an ICBM with a far smaller chance for intercepting the
    weapon.

  16. Without getting into the rest of your assumptions, there's been plenty of press on the supergun
    program; you really might pay more attention to the world you live in. In the US, PBS even did a
    Frontline show on them and their Canadian inventor, Gerald Bull. He died, let's say, a less than
    natural death. Have a peek at:

    fas.orgsupergun.htm

    SB

    "Gary Smiley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Tom, as I write this, it isn't quite April Fools' day yet, so don't expect me to believe that a
    cannon could shoot a shell around the world, or even hit Mexico City. This is even less believable
    than all the reasons given in this thread for invading Iraq. Let's not kid ourselves- it's all
    about oil, wealth, power, and imperialism, with "freedom" as a paltry excuse.

    Tom Kunich wrote: We also know that he was building a super cannon and perhaps what you don't

    Quoted message said:

    know is that cannon could have been capable of shooting a shell entirely around the world. The
    expert he was using had a 'normal' cannon in his front yard on the border between Montreal and
    the USA. He was quoted as saying that he couldn't reveal the range of that particular cannon but
    that he could easily hit Mexico City. That's roughly 4,000 miles and a super version of such a
    cannon would give him the power of an ICBM with a far smaller chance for intercepting the
    weapon.

  17. "Gary Smiley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Tom, as I write this, it isn't quite April Fools' day yet, so don't


    expect

    Quoted message said:

    me to believe that a cannon could shoot a shell around the world, or


    even

    Quoted message said:

    hit Mexico City. This is even less believable than all the reasons


    given

    Quoted message said:

    in this thread for invading Iraq.

    Let me tell you something Gary - in 1967 I worked at a company that had as a project a super
    projectile cannon that could not only shoot a shot clear around the world, or all the way to the
    moon - but entirely out of this solar system. Go look up the velocity of such a projectile.

    At that same time that Canadian (who was later advising Saddam Hussein and building his cannon and
    who was subsequently assasinated when he refused to stop doing so and was warned several times but
    the Israelis) offered to build a cannon for the US to launch satillites into space. He also
    developed the technology which doubled the range of US 150 mm cannons.

    If you don't know what the power of a high peformance cannon is these days I suggest you study the
    matter before making a stupid statement.

    Quoted message said:

    Let's not kid ourselves- it's all about oil, wealth, power, and imperialism, with "freedom" as a
    paltry excuse.

    Ahh, yes, I see your agenda now. Stupidity at any price.

  18. Let me get this straight, a study commissioned by members of this administration reported that
    mistakes had been made in the past and suggested changes?

    college.

    "Clovis Lark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    In rec.bicycles.racing Tom Kunich said:

    Sergio, perhaps I ought to just put into words my feelings about


    this

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    war:

    Quoted message said:

    The USA would prefer to stay completely out of the internal


    workings

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    of other countries but sometimes it pays for us to stick out noses


    in.

    Quoted message said:


    Tom never heard of the PNAC and the study that Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, etc. commissioned and
    was delivered in September 2000. It clearly expresses an agenda to be nose, torso, and legs in the


    working of

    Quoted message said:

    other countries. The foreign minister of Suadi Arabia spoke


    directly to

    Quoted message said:

    the concerns raised by this agenda. Tom, don't even bother baiting


    me on

    Quoted message said:

    this. Here is the link. Whatever rebuttal you have, please address


    it

    Quoted message said:

    specifically to this link's contents. Help readers out and cite what


    pages

    Quoted message said:

    you are discussing:

    newamericancentury.orgRebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

    Quoted message said:

    President Eisenhower had intended that we would supply a graceful


    way

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    for France to exit Indochina (Vietnam) from which we would then


    bow

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    out in short order. Unfortunately Eisenhower was replaced with


    Kennedy

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    who firstly caused a near catastrophe in Cuba and then tried to


    use

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Vietnam as an example to show that he really could wage a


    successful

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    military campaign. Johnson continued in that format and the


    terrible

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    consequences of that sort of thinking are history.

    Quoted message said:

    But Iraq is not the same case. For one thing, when we were trying


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    befriend Iraq in an effort to have some moderating effect on their policies we sold Saddam some
    presses ostensibly so that he could


    print

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    high quality Iraqi currency. Saddam used these presses to


    counterfeit

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    American money so lavishly that at one point one out of every five


    $20

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    bills was an Iraqi counterfeit so good that it couldn't be


    detected by

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    anyone but the most skilled experts.

    Quoted message said:

    He used this money to build a staggering arsenal and to begin


    building

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    seriously dangerous weapons of mass destruction. Perhaps you


    remember

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Israel bombing the Iraqi nuclear site which we now all understand


    was

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    primarily for generating weapons grade radioactive material. We


    also

    Quoted message said:


    Perhaps Tom remembers the famous handshake between Hussein and


    Rumsfeld

    Quoted message said:

    sealing the delivery of WMD in 1983? Make sure you adderss this.


    Forget

    Quoted message said:

    about me.

    Quoted message said:

    know that he was building a super cannon and perhaps what you


    don't

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    know is that cannon could have been capable of shooting a shell entirely around the world.
    The expert he was using had a 'normal' cannon in his front yard on the border between
    Montreal and the


    USA.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    He was quoted as saying that he couldn't reveal the range of that particular cannon but that
    he could easily hit Mexico City. That's roughly 4,000 miles and a super version of such a
    cannon would


    give

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    him the power of an ICBM with a far smaller chance for


    intercepting

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the weapon.

    Quoted message said:

    France and Germany, China and Russia have all been selling arms


    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    materials to Saddam sub rosa, illegally and despite the fact that


    all

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    of them signed on to the UN limitations.

    Quoted message said:

    Saddam also used the money to fund terrorists and terrorist


    activities

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    all over the world. This is almost impossible to prove openly


    because

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    intelligence sources for this kind of thing are exceedingly


    dificult

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    to trace and showing how the information is gotten would


    invalidate

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    using those sources in the future. So many of the real proofs of


    what

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Hussein has been doing must remain top secret for many decades. Remember that it was 50 years
    before some really important


    intellgence

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    wources from WW II were revealed.

    Quoted message said:

    Most importantly Saddam has been trying to find an effective


    terrorist

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    organization to deliver some extremely dangerous weapons of mass destruction into the United
    States. We have already arrested an American hispanic gang member who offered to set off a dirty


    (nuclear)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    bomb in the USA and received $10,000 in cash to begin his


    operation.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    He was siezed at an airport with the money on him. Saddam has been courting bin Laden for many
    years because he thought that Al Qaida


    was

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the best chance for delivering a biological or chemical weapon


    into an

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    American city. Fortunately for us, bin Laden can't stand Hussein


    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    always turned him down.

    Quoted message said:

    Nevertheless it has become clear that Hussein is trying to attack


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    USA and to do it on an extremely dangerous level. It was no longer


    a

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    question about if he could succeed, because 9/11 showed that eventually he would succeed.

    Back to the PNAC agenda that shows 911 was never the reason for the current agenda. But don't take
    me on. Please address the PNAC


    document

    Quoted message said:

    cites above and be sure to help us by referring to the specific


    pages you

    Quoted message said:

    take issue with.

    Quoted message said:

    All this has made it necessary to take this awful regime out now.


    We

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    cannot wait for tens or hundreds of thousands of casualties. We


    cannot

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    wait in case he tries his hand at lesser targets like Tel Aviv or Rome.

    Quoted message said:

    We are all preying for peace but it isn't Italian blood that would


    be

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    spilled if we wait. And it is less important to you that American lives are lost than it is to
    us. While you advise us to wait from


    a

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    position of almost absolute ignorance, we have been advised by out


    own

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    government with tens of thousands of information sources,


    thousands of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    analysts and hundreds of advisors that this man is dangerous and growing more dangerous by the
    second. How is it that you could possibly be better informed than these people and how is it


    possible

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    that they are all in a conspiracy to make a profit in this


    endevor?

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    Now that we are committed to the war we cannot turn back. Last


    time we

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    turned back tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians were tortured and murdered because they sought
    their own freedoms. We cannot turn


    back a

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    second time and allow the very hope for freedom to die in the


    hearts

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    of these people.

    Tell that to them...

    Quoted message said:

    For those who think that oil is an issue let me be the first to


    agree.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Though not in the manner that many may think. Oil runs the whole world. Iraqi oil could threaten
    Europe or it can run Europe. We


    prefer

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the later. It isn't important who is making the profits from the


    oil

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    as long a it's flowing and Europeans are eating and sleeping in


    peace

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    instead of warring on each other for valuable natural resources.


    The

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    fact of the matter is that the USA is in a better position to live without Iraqi oil than
    virtually the rest of the world.

    Quoted message said:

    "Sergio SERVADIO" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Though off-topic with bicycles, I feel the need to
    put into


    English

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    for

    Quoted message said:

    you, people I have corresponded with for some time and whom I


    pretend

    Quoted message said:

    to be acquainted with, a message written a while ago for an


    Italian

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    friend

    Quoted message said:

    of mine.

    Ride into PEACE.

    Sergio Pisa



    ______________________________________________________________________

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    _______

    Quoted message said:

    > about the war ...
    ... we hold rather different opinions.

    There is no need for us to hide behind somebody else' rationale,


    be

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    it

    Quoted message said:

    honest or faudolent, to be in favor or against the war. So, your rebuttal of France's, Russia's
    and China's stands and


    reasonings

    Quoted message said:

    does not diminish the urge for your own evaluation and judgment.

    Never mind there are always people who are, almost genetically,


    opposed

    Quoted message said:

    to any initiative, ever unable to bear responsibility.

    In practise it is impossible to justify war, any war. It is so because its outburst goes too
    far beyond what has


    preceeded

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    it.

    Quoted message said:

    War can never be morally acceptable, never a 'just' retaliation. All the more so, the more
    outbalanced are the contendants.

    Even worse, when the attacking party does so after such a long


    propaganda

    Quoted message said:

    campaign full of lies and alleged wrong reasons put forward with


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    intent, so badly missed, to rally support from the international community.

    Which so bad faults against the U.S. can one ascribe to Saddam


    Hussein?

    Quoted message said:

    How much do you think the U.S. really care about the Kurds,


    slaughtered

    Quoted message said:

    and persecuted both in Irak and in Turkey? How much do the U.S. really value civil rights, the
    western


    style,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    in

    Quoted message said:

    other Countries? In which other Countries? Why there, and not


    elsewhere?

    Quoted message said:


    Have you forgotten Allende? Have you forgotten Vietnam?, where the heroic resistence was


    universal and

    Quoted message said:

    Ho Chi Min's Communist Party was only a component, initially only


    a

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    minor

    Quoted message said:

    component, of the liberation movement.

    Aren't there still so many countries where democracy, our style


    of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    course,

    Quoted message said:

    is not established and which, nevertheless, are justly respected?

    When war, whichever war, outbrakes the party that thrusts it is


    always at

    Quoted message said:

    fault: for having brought the clash to such a dramatic level. The nation that gets attacked
    with such a fury has the right to


    defend

    Quoted message said:

    herself, with whatever means.

    Any defence war is just and heroic. Perhaps any revenge, for so much undured horror, is just.

    What follows then?

    Sergio


  19. Steve Blankenship <[email hidden]> wrote:
    : He died, let's say, a less than natural death.

    ahh, the mossad.

    as per gerald bull, it's always interesting to see where astrophysicists find work. ;-)
    --
    david reuteler [email hidden]

  20. George Carlin once did a comedy bit about how guns were like [censored], and how troops had to have
    bigger "[censored]" than the enemy. So I'm sure you're just salivating over this cannon. But it's April
    Fool's day now, so you can tell me anything you want. You can tell me that the moon is made out of
    green cheese, or that we're in this war to protect "freedom". But this cannon thing is the most
    outrageous piece of [censored] I have ever heard. It's never been made, it's never going to be made,
    but if it ever does get made, well then you can call me stupid. Until then I'll just chalk it up as
    an April Fool's Day rant on your part.

    Tom Kunich said:

    "Gary Smiley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Tom, as I write this, it isn't quite April Fools' day yet, so don't


    expect

    Quoted message said:

    me to believe that a cannon could shoot a shell around the world, or


    even

    Quoted message said:

    hit Mexico City. This is even less believable than all the reasons


    given

    Quoted message said:

    in this thread for invading Iraq.

    Let me tell you something Gary - in 1967 I worked at a company that had as a project a super
    projectile cannon that could not only shoot a shot clear around the world, or all the way to the
    moon - but entirely out of this solar system. Go look up the velocity of such a projectile.

    At that same time that Canadian (who was later advising Saddam Hussein and building his cannon and
    who was subsequently assasinated when he refused to stop doing so and was warned several times but
    the Israelis) offered to build a cannon for the US to launch satillites into space. He also
    developed the technology which doubled the range of US 150 mm cannons.

    If you don't know what the power of a high peformance cannon is these days I suggest you study the
    matter before making a stupid statement.

    Quoted message said:

    Let's not kid ourselves- it's all about oil, wealth, power, and imperialism, with "freedom" as a
    paltry excuse.

    Ahh, yes, I see your agenda now. Stupidity at any price.

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