OT: USA

Doug Kanter said:

"Joan in GB-W" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The city I live in recently put into local law an ordinance that English
be
the official language of the county. Anyway, when the side opposing the
legislation (I might add that that was my side) pointed out to them that
the
current immigrants are learning English far faster than OUR ancestors did
way back when, they ignored those facts.

The idea of making it a law for government employment is stupid. Simply make
English proficiency a requirement for each specific job that involves
speaking to the public. There are plenty of jobs behind the scenes where
your less-than-perfect won't frustrate the bejeezus out of 90% of the people
you come into contact with.

Your widdle twain has run offn its twack... alls ya gots to do is
mandate that English proficiency be required to become a US citizen...
the idea of administering a US citizenry exam in any other language but
English is as ludicrous as the US printing multi-cultural money....
next thing ya know we'll have $3 bills sporting a picture of a couple
dago homos kissing. LOL

Sheldon

"Nancy Young" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"FDR" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"Nancy Young" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

One city here did that to cries of racism blah blah blah ... well, let
the
people who think that such a bad idea go over to city hall and pick up
their CofO (don't ask) and other paperwork to sell a house and no one
understands what the hell you're looking for. Not acceptable to me.
I'm right behind the law that said, you want to work for the city, you
have to be able to communicate in English.

Quoted message said:

I'm sure there are jobs that would require a proficient use of the
language. However, my grandfather came over from Italy in the 20's,
didn't know the language, or learn it, but was good enough to work for
the city sweeping streets. Should he have been deprived employment with
the city?

No, though I bet he'd have done well in a more skilled job had he spoken
the language. Before you get annoyed, there is nothing wrong with being
a street sweeper, someone had to do it, and it's hard honest work. But
even the most simple job is probably easier if you can read directions to
equipment, whatever. Those were far simpler times. But, I digress.

No, I really don't think it is at all acceptable to have to conduct
business
required by law with people who can't read my applications or understand
what I need from them. You shouldn't be hired if you can't do the job.
I don't think it's too much to ask. I would expect the same of myself if
I moved to another country.

nancy

I'm thinking of real estate transactions at a county clerk's office,
conducted by an employee who speaks little or no English. Could be
interesting....

"Sheldon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doug Kanter said:

"Joan in GB-W" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The city I live in recently put into local law an ordinance that
English
be
the official language of the county. Anyway, when the side opposing
the
legislation (I might add that that was my side) pointed out to them
that
the
current immigrants are learning English far faster than OUR ancestors
did
way back when, they ignored those facts.

The idea of making it a law for government employment is stupid. Simply
make
English proficiency a requirement for each specific job that involves
speaking to the public. There are plenty of jobs behind the scenes where
your less-than-perfect won't frustrate the bejeezus out of 90% of the
people
you come into contact with.

Your widdle twain has run offn its twack... alls ya gots to do is
mandate that English proficiency be required to become a US citizen...
the idea of administering a US citizenry exam in any other language but
English is as ludicrous as the US printing multi-cultural money....
next thing ya know we'll have $3 bills sporting a picture of a couple
dago homos kissing. LOL

Sheldon

If English proficiency was required for citizenship, two things would
happen. First, we'd be deprived of an awful lot of talent. That's serious.
The next thing is frightening: [censored] Cheney would be president.

"FDR" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Kat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"FDR" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dan Abel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <[email hidden]>,
> US Citizen <uscitizen@usa> wrote:
>
>
>> Will we still be the Country of choice and still be America if we
>> continue
>> to make the changes forced on us by the people from other countries
>
> This is a joke, right? If not, then it must be a troll.

When the poeple of other countries are becoming the majority, then
Democracy will favor them.

so?
Afraid of not being favored anymore?

I'm not saying it like it's a bad thing. Cool yer engines.

got it, engines cooled 🙂

"Nancy Young" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"FDR" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"Nancy Young" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

One city here did that to cries of racism blah blah blah ... well, let
the
people who think that such a bad idea go over to city hall and pick up
their CofO (don't ask) and other paperwork to sell a house and no one
understands what the hell you're looking for. Not acceptable to me.
I'm right behind the law that said, you want to work for the city, you
have to be able to communicate in English.

Quoted message said:

I'm sure there are jobs that would require a proficient use of the
language. However, my grandfather came over from Italy in the 20's,
didn't know the language, or learn it, but was good enough to work for
the city sweeping streets. Should he have been deprived employment with
the city?

No, though I bet he'd have done well in a more skilled job had he spoken
the language. Before you get annoyed, there is nothing wrong with being
a street sweeper, someone had to do it, and it's hard honest work. But
even the most simple job is probably easier if you can read directions to
equipment, whatever. Those were far simpler times. But, I digress.

No, I really don't think it is at all acceptable to have to conduct
business
required by law with people who can't read my applications or understand
what I need from them. You shouldn't be hired if you can't do the job.
I don't think it's too much to ask. I would expect the same of myself if
I moved to another country.

nancy

I agree with you. The ability to do the job should be the first
consideration, and good communication is essential in many public sector
jobs. This also means that in areas with significant non-English-speaking
populations, it is reasonable for the government to have Spanish (or
whatever) fluent workers in certain offices. After all, the job is to help
the public, right? Unfortunately there are some right-wingers who get their
knickers in a twist at this idea, and I have no patience with that.

--
Peter Aitken

"Peter Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"Nancy Young" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No, I really don't think it is at all acceptable to have to conduct
business
required by law with people who can't read my applications or understand
what I need from them. You shouldn't be hired if you can't do the job.
I don't think it's too much to ask. I would expect the same of myself if
I moved to another country.

I agree with you. The ability to do the job should be the first
consideration, and good communication is essential in many public sector
jobs. This also means that in areas with significant non-English-speaking
populations, it is reasonable for the government to have Spanish (or
whatever) fluent workers in certain offices.

No problem with that, even then I would expect them to be fluent
in both languages. Even then, there is always going to be someone
showing up who needs help and only speaks Yugoslavian ... I guess
they'd better bring a friend who can translate.

Quoted message said:

After all, the job is to help the public, right? Unfortunately there are
some right-wingers who get their knickers in a twist at this idea, and I
have no patience with that.

Ditto. I don't have to go to a Spanish speaking bodega or an Indian
goods store, but I do have to go to city hall on occasion to do business.
I need someone I can talk to, there.

nancy

Dimitri said:

I too am behind the laws that require English proficiency - However, many years
ago some of the immigrants wanted so desperately to "Americanize" that they
denied their American born children of their roots - and cultural heritage.
Also not a good thing. I would much rather have baklava as my roots than Oscar
Mayer. LOL.

Dimitri

Roots and culture will only carry you so far.
We see the ( extreme ) effect in Canada with Quebecois.

"When in Rome, do as the Romans do"

<rj>

Sheldon said:

Your widdle twain has run offn its twack... alls ya gots to do is
mandate that English proficiency be required to become a US citizen...
the idea of administering a US citizenry exam in any other language but
English is as ludicrous as the US printing multi-cultural money....
next thing ya know we'll have $3 bills sporting a picture of a couple
dago homos kissing. LOL

Sheldon

We already have such a paradox.

You have to be a citizen to vote.
You have to speak English to be a citizen....
and yet,
Feds require that voting ballots be available in foreign languages.

???
<rj>

RJ said:

Dimitri said:

I too am behind the laws that require English proficiency - However, many years
ago some of the immigrants wanted so desperately to "Americanize" that they
denied their American born children of their roots - and cultural heritage.
Also not a good thing. I would much rather have baklava as my roots than Oscar
Mayer. LOL.

Dimitri

Roots and culture will only carry you so far.
We see the ( extreme ) effect in Canada with Quebecois.

Actually the Quebecois and the original poster share much in common.
They want other people to learn their language and conform to their
culture. Odd, when Americans do it, we are criticized (rightly so in
this case), but the Quebecois are given far more lattitude. Both the
original poster and the Quebecois are insular, racist, and intolerant.
Both deserve criticism.

Dean G.

Doug Kanter said:

If English proficiency was required for citizenship, two things would
happen. First, we'd be deprived of an awful lot of talent. That's
serious. The next thing is frightening: [censored] Cheney would be
president.

He isn't? At least the puppet master.

--

Joe Cilinceon

RJ said:

You have to speak English to be a citizen....
and yet,
Feds require that voting ballots be available in foreign languages.

And the California DMV used to let you take the written test in one of 6
or more languages.

Andy

Quoted message said:

US Citizen said:

This Was in a Tampa Newspaper....Please Read

Will we still be the Country of choice and still be America if we continue
to make the changes forced on us by the people from other countries that
came to live in America because it is the Country of Choice??????

I imagine the Navaho, the Irquois etc feel much the same way.

You mean the people who arrived from asia?

Quoted message said:

Pesky
foreigners from England and Spain and the Netherlands and who knows
where the riff-raff are coming from. Good grief, even Scots and
Germans. It was all the fault of that blasted Italian.

Neighbourhood has never been the same since.

Pan Ohco

Doug Kanter said:

"Joan in GB-W" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The city I live in recently put into local law an ordinance that English
be
the official language of the county. Anyway, when the side opposing the
legislation (I might add that that was my side) pointed out to them that
the
current immigrants are learning English far faster than OUR ancestors did
way back when, they ignored those facts.

The idea of making it a law for government employment is stupid. Simply make
English proficiency a requirement for each specific job that involves
speaking to the public. There are plenty of jobs behind the scenes where
your less-than-perfect won't frustrate the bejeezus out of 90% of the people
you come into contact with.

There may be a job in government where the use of english is
unnecessary, but I can't think of one. If you don't have to
communicate with the public, you will have to communicate with your
boss, who does communicate with the public.

In my experience, I have found that if the person in question, intends
to stay in this county, they attempt to learn the language. If they
are intending to stay only until they pry enough gold out of the
street, and then return home, they will not learn.
And those who wish to stay, will have their children, translate or
teach them to speak english.

Quoted message said:

Pan Ohco

"<RJ>" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dimitri said:

I too am behind the laws that require English proficiency - However, many
years
ago some of the immigrants wanted so desperately to "Americanize" that they
denied their American born children of their roots - and cultural heritage.
Also not a good thing. I would much rather have baklava as my roots than Oscar
Mayer. LOL.

Dimitri

Roots and culture will only carry you so far.
We see the ( extreme ) effect in Canada with Quebecois.

"When in Rome, do as the Romans do"

<rj>

Ya but the problem is - When in Rome doing as the Romanians.....

Dimitri

"Doug Kanter" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"Nancy Young" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"FDR" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"Nancy Young" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

> One city here did that to cries of racism blah blah blah ... well,
> let the
> people who think that such a bad idea go over to city hall and pick
> up their CofO (don't ask) and other paperwork to sell a house and
> no one understands what the hell you're looking for. Not
> acceptable to me. I'm right behind the law that said, you want to
> work for the city, you have to be able to communicate in English.

Quoted message said:

I'm sure there are jobs that would require a proficient use of the
language. However, my grandfather came over from Italy in the 20's,
didn't know the language, or learn it, but was good enough to work
for the city sweeping streets. Should he have been deprived
employment with the city?

No, though I bet he'd have done well in a more skilled job had he
spoken the language. Before you get annoyed, there is nothing wrong
with being a street sweeper, someone had to do it, and it's hard
honest work. But even the most simple job is probably easier if you
can read directions to equipment, whatever. Those were far simpler
times. But, I digress.

No, I really don't think it is at all acceptable to have to conduct
business
required by law with people who can't read my applications or
understand what I need from them. You shouldn't be hired if you
can't do the job. I don't think it's too much to ask. I would expect
the same of myself if I moved to another country.

nancy

I'm thinking of real estate transactions at a county clerk's office,
conducted by an employee who speaks little or no English. Could be
interesting....

ROFL... I can see it now. I thought I'd bought a small retreat and wind up
owning The Grand Canyon.

Michael

--
Send email to dog30 at charter dot net

In article <[email hidden]>,

FDR said:

"Stan Horwitz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

FDR said:

"Dan Abel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <[email hidden]>,
> US Citizen <uscitizen@usa> wrote:
>
>
>> Will we still be the Country of choice and still be America if we
>> continue
>> to make the changes forced on us by the people from other countries
>
> This is a joke, right? If not, then it must be a troll.

When the poeple of other countries are becoming the majority, then
Democracy
will favor them.

Perhaps, but here in the United States, we are NOT a democracy, nor have
we ever been one.

I guess the Iraqis got it better than us.

Time will tell, but those who think living under a true democracy is a
good thing, such as President Bush apparently does, seem to forget the
presidential election fiasco in 2000.

"Dog3" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Doug Kanter" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"Nancy Young" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"FDR" <[email hidden]> wrote

> "Nancy Young" <[email hidden]> wrote

>> One city here did that to cries of racism blah blah blah ... well,
>> let the
>> people who think that such a bad idea go over to city hall and pick
>> up their CofO (don't ask) and other paperwork to sell a house and
>> no one understands what the hell you're looking for. Not
>> acceptable to me. I'm right behind the law that said, you want to
>> work for the city, you have to be able to communicate in English.

> I'm sure there are jobs that would require a proficient use of the
> language. However, my grandfather came over from Italy in the 20's,
> didn't know the language, or learn it, but was good enough to work
> for the city sweeping streets. Should he have been deprived
> employment with the city?

No, though I bet he'd have done well in a more skilled job had he
spoken the language. Before you get annoyed, there is nothing wrong
with being a street sweeper, someone had to do it, and it's hard
honest work. But even the most simple job is probably easier if you
can read directions to equipment, whatever. Those were far simpler
times. But, I digress.

No, I really don't think it is at all acceptable to have to conduct
business
required by law with people who can't read my applications or
understand what I need from them. You shouldn't be hired if you
can't do the job. I don't think it's too much to ask. I would expect
the same of myself if I moved to another country.

nancy

I'm thinking of real estate transactions at a county clerk's office,
conducted by an employee who speaks little or no English. Could be
interesting....

ROFL... I can see it now. I thought I'd bought a small retreat and wind
up
owning The Grand Canyon.

Or, the property you wanted, and 3 of your adjoining neighbors' plots, too.
🙂 No more fence disagreements!

"Pan Ohco" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doug Kanter said:

"Joan in GB-W" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The city I live in recently put into local law an ordinance that English
be
the official language of the county. Anyway, when the side opposing the
legislation (I might add that that was my side) pointed out to them that
the
current immigrants are learning English far faster than OUR ancestors
did
way back when, they ignored those facts.

The idea of making it a law for government employment is stupid. Simply
make
English proficiency a requirement for each specific job that involves
speaking to the public. There are plenty of jobs behind the scenes where
your less-than-perfect won't frustrate the bejeezus out of 90% of the
people
you come into contact with.

There may be a job in government where the use of english is
unnecessary, but I can't think of one. If you don't have to
communicate with the public, you will have to communicate with your
boss, who does communicate with the public.

Can't think of one? :-) Forget government for the moment:

I know a couple of programmers who went to work immediately upon their
arrival from Lithuania. They were struggling with English, but since
programmers speak gibberish to begin with, these two were accepted easily,
even with the language barrier. They're learning quickly. I believe
government agencies sometimes have computer staff on the payroll.

In any big American city, you might be enlightened if you could walk into
the kitchen of a restaurant and meet the soux chef or saucier - two
important people who are *really* responsible for the food you get in many
places (as opposed to the head chef, who's probably in the office going over
budgets and tomorrow's deliveries).

Quoted message said:

In my experience, I have found that if the person in question, intends
to stay in this county, they attempt to learn the language. If they
are intending to stay only until they pry enough gold out of the
street, and then return home, they will not learn.
And those who wish to stay, will have their children, translate or
teach them to speak english.

Young kids will take care of themselves for reasons I'm sure you're aware
of. They'll learn from television and English speaking kids.

Adults benefit from immersion - being stuck in situations where they have no
choice but to communicate. The problem is that they are less likely to BE
spoken to spontaneously because if people realize they don't speak English,
many won't make the effort to struggle through a discussion of "how you get
to Maple Avenue".

Doug Kanter said:

Young kids will take care of themselves for reasons I'm sure you're aware
of. They'll learn from television and English speaking kids.

When I was a kid my best friend was German. He came here when he was 3 and we
met when we were 10. He and his sister spoke perfect English, but both parents
had acquired a good command of the language though they had distinct accents.
The town where I live has a lot of Dutch immigrants, but they typically abandon
Dutch and stick to English. You hear a slight accent in some of them, but most
arrive here quite fluent in English. I don't know what it is about Italians, but
they just don't ever seem to lose the accents or become terribly fluent in
English. The woman who lived next door to us is Italian, born here to parents
who had just immigrated. The parents bought the house next door to them. Nice
people, but it surprises me to hear them speak. After more than 50 years here
they sound like they just arrived.

A lot of immigrants tend to move to large cities with a large population of
their own culture. Toronto has huge populations of Chinese, Eat Indians,
Italians and Portuguese and they are able to get my in their own languages
without ever having to speak English.

Quoted message said:

Adults benefit from immersion - being stuck in situations where they have no
choice but to communicate. The problem is that they are less likely to BE
spoken to spontaneously because if people realize they don't speak English,
many won't make the effort to struggle through a discussion of "how you get
to Maple Avenue".

Immersion is the only way to go. I learned more French in a few days when I went
with a friend to visit his grandparents. His grandmother spoke no English at
all. After a few days I was thinking in French. I also picked up a lot of
German from my old friend's family. They always spoke German amongst themselves,
and as I started catching on they spoke it with me. It is amazing how much you
pick up when you don't have the option of resorting to your first language.

"Dave Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doug Kanter said:

Young kids will take care of themselves for reasons I'm sure you're aware
of. They'll learn from television and English speaking kids.

When I was a kid my best friend was German. He came here when he was 3 and
we
met when we were 10. He and his sister spoke perfect English, but both
parents
had acquired a good command of the language though they had distinct
accents.
The town where I live has a lot of Dutch immigrants, but they typically
abandon
Dutch and stick to English. You hear a slight accent in some of them, but
most
arrive here quite fluent in English. I don't know what it is about
Italians, but
they just don't ever seem to lose the accents or become terribly fluent in
English. The woman who lived next door to us is Italian, born here to
parents
who had just immigrated. The parents bought the house next door to them.
Nice
people, but it surprises me to hear them speak. After more than 50 years
here
they sound like they just arrived.

A lot of immigrants tend to move to large cities with a large population
of
their own culture. Toronto has huge populations of Chinese, Eat Indians,
Italians and Portuguese and they are able to get my in their own languages
without ever having to speak English.

Quoted message said:

Adults benefit from immersion - being stuck in situations where they have
no
choice but to communicate. The problem is that they are less likely to BE
spoken to spontaneously because if people realize they don't speak
English,
many won't make the effort to struggle through a discussion of "how you
get
to Maple Avenue".

Immersion is the only way to go. I learned more French in a few days when
I went
with a friend to visit his grandparents. His grandmother spoke no English
at
all. After a few days I was thinking in French. I also picked up a lot of
German from my old friend's family. They always spoke German amongst
themselves,
and as I started catching on they spoke it with me. It is amazing how much
you
pick up when you don't have the option of resorting to your first
language.

I'll add that Puerto Rico is *not* a great place for immersion. They speak
like the guys who read the disclaimers at the end of car leasing
commercials. :-) Mexicans are slower and more melodic.