OT: The Paleo Diet

Ignoramus8954 wrote:
|| In article <[email hidden]>, Roger Zoul wrote:
||| I'm wondering who, if any, follow this plan and what your success
||| has been?
|||
|||
||
|| I have been following it for almost one month.
||
|| Eating no grains/starch and no added sugar, limited fruits, unlimited
|| vegs, meat and fat. Very little milk products (as in a couple of
|| ounces of cheese per week).

Are you restricting sat fats in any way? The author of the book seems to
think sat fats are bad and he also seems to think that if you don't restrict
them (as one would do on a high fat diet for weight loss) then cholesterol
will increase.

Also, are you eating a greater amount of protein?

||
|| So far, up until Saturday, I did not regain any weight while eating
|| more fat and being much less hungry. As you know, I lost weight
|| almost
|| a year ago and, while I maintained very well, I was hungry often,
|| thinking about food etc.
||
|| After some discussions here, I decided to give up starches that I was
|| eating (a bit of bread, hot cereal), and voila, something changed and
|| I feel like a normal person. The kind who eat breakfast and do not
|| think about food until lunch.
||
|| I am up 3 lbs today, but that is after a late night wedding yesterday
|| that I attended. As of Saturday, I was down one pound. (an
|| insignificant amount)
||
|| If I overeat fat at one meal, then I am not hungry for much of the
|| day
|| and not feeling like eating. That happened yesterday, I ate a big
|| plateful of sausages and scrambled eggs at a "continental breakfast",
|| and skipped lunch because the thought of food was revolting.
||
|| The jury is still out and I want to monitor how I am going, for a
|| while, but so far, my results are encouraging. Again, it is very
|| preliminary.
||
|| My blood sugar, which I measured during one day, is also stable. I am
|| not a diabetic, but my dad is and my sugar is not stable after eating
|| carbs.
||
|| On paleo, it was between 64 and 93 on relion (whole blood
|| calibrated), mostly being between 70 or 80.

That sounds good...however, I am diabetic so I'm wondering how the fruits
would affect someone who is. I'm thinking that this diet might be better
for someone who wants to ride a bicycle for 5+ hours at a time, too.

||
|| I am not on it to lose weight, I am on it to keep stable blood sugar
|| and to not regain weight and to not be hungry. I do not feel like I
|| need to lose much more. If more weight loss happens, so be it.
||
|| I was at a wedding recently, I very many of my relatives are
|| diabetics, it is [censored] scary. My dad, grandma, a bunch of inlaws of
|| all kinds, some walking funny, etc.
||

Same here. I have a 67 year-old uncle who as always been very muscular and
strong (really strong). He is now a type 2, but knows little about it. I
asked him how often he check BG and he said once a week. Then I asked what
kind of fast BG levels he had and he said 150 to 200 (and it could get up to
300 at times during the day). These questions from me came AFTER he told me
that he doesn't take his medication. I'm sending him a copy of Bernstein's
book.

Quoted message said:

I'm wondering who, if any, follow this plan and what your success has

been?

Why is it OT: ?

Mirek

Ignoramus8954 wrote:
|| In article <[email hidden]>, Roger Zoul wrote:
||| Ignoramus8954 wrote:
||||| In article <[email hidden]>, Roger Zoul wrote:
|||||| I'm wondering who, if any, follow this plan and what your success
|||||| has been?
||||||
||||||
|||||
||||| I have been following it for almost one month.
|||||
||||| Eating no grains/starch and no added sugar, limited fruits,
||||| unlimited vegs, meat and fat. Very little milk products (as in a
||||| couple of
||||| ounces of cheese per week).
|||
||| Are you restricting sat fats in any way? The author of the book
||| seems to think sat fats are bad and he also seems to think that if
||| you don't restrict them (as one would do on a high fat diet for
||| weight loss) then cholesterol will increase.
||
|| The book I read is called "NeanderThin" and its author is not against
|| saturated fat. I am not limiting sat fat at the moment, but try to
|| balance it by eating some nuts. I am interested to see what happens
|| to
|| my blood lipids after a few months.

Ah...I have that book too. However, there is another book called "The Paleo
Diet" that I was referring too when I posted. I do realize that Neaderthin
is thought of a Paleo diet as well, however. While I haven't finished that
book, I don't recall seeing the author put down sat fat as does the author
of "The Paleo Diet"

||
|| I read quite a few articles, inculding about randomized controlled
|| trials involving sat fats (see second-opinions.co.uk), as well as
|| others, it appears that much of what was said against sat fats is
|| based on junk science. Again, this is not yet a firm conclusion yet.

Yes, I'm read similar things, too. One curious thing I find about "The
Paleo Diet" is that its author suggest eating lean meats and poultry, and
even removing the skin from chicken! Now, would a stone age man have done
that? One could argue that the animals that stone-age man hunted for food
had less fat than our "raised" foodstock does today, so perhaps that is why
(I haven't finished "The Paleo Diet" either).
||
||| Also, are you eating a greater amount of protein?
||
|| Not really, I eat as much as I like, probably not more and not much
|| less.

"The Paleo Diet" recommends a diet HIGH in protein...this book claims many
benefits due to protein...its authors considers LC to be a moderate protein,
high fat diet, by comparison.

||
|||||
||||| So far, up until Saturday, I did not regain any weight while
||||| eating
||||| more fat and being much less hungry. As you know, I lost weight
||||| almost
||||| a year ago and, while I maintained very well, I was hungry often,
||||| thinking about food etc.
|||||
||||| After some discussions here, I decided to give up starches that I
||||| was eating (a bit of bread, hot cereal), and voila, something
||||| changed and
||||| I feel like a normal person. The kind who eat breakfast and do not
||||| think about food until lunch.
|||||
||||| I am up 3 lbs today, but that is after a late night wedding
||||| yesterday that I attended. As of Saturday, I was down one pound.
||||| (an
||||| insignificant amount)
|||||
||||| If I overeat fat at one meal, then I am not hungry for much of the
||||| day
||||| and not feeling like eating. That happened yesterday, I ate a big
||||| plateful of sausages and scrambled eggs at a "continental
||||| breakfast",
||||| and skipped lunch because the thought of food was revolting.
|||||
||||| The jury is still out and I want to monitor how I am going, for a
||||| while, but so far, my results are encouraging. Again, it is very
||||| preliminary.
|||||
||||| My blood sugar, which I measured during one day, is also stable.
||||| I am
||||| not a diabetic, but my dad is and my sugar is not stable after
||||| eating carbs.
|||||
||||| On paleo, it was between 64 and 93 on relion (whole blood
||||| calibrated), mostly being between 70 or 80.
|||
||| That sounds good...however, I am diabetic so I'm wondering how the
||| fruits would affect someone who is. I'm thinking that this diet
||| might be better for someone who wants to ride a bicycle for 5+
||| hours at a time, too.
||
|| You do not have to eat fruits, and I, myself, eat little, but I do
|| eat
|| some. I think that the concept of eating to your meter, is quite
|| sensible and applies to all diets and all people.

Well, stone-age man didn't have meters to eat to. Surely, that is a good
idea of those who are diabetic, however.

||
|||||
||||| I am not on it to lose weight, I am on it to keep stable blood
||||| sugar
||||| and to not regain weight and to not be hungry. I do not feel like
||||| I
||||| need to lose much more. If more weight loss happens, so be it.
|||||
||||| I was at a wedding recently, I very many of my relatives are
||||| diabetics, it is [censored] scary. My dad, grandma, a bunch of
||||| inlaws of
||||| all kinds, some walking funny, etc.
|||||
|||
||| Same here. I have a 67 year-old uncle who as always been very
||| muscular and strong (really strong). He is now a type 2, but knows
||| little about it. I asked him how often he check BG and he said
||| once a week. Then I asked what kind of fast BG levels he had and
||| he said 150 to 200 (and it could get up to 300 at times during the
||| day). These questions from me came AFTER he told me that he
||| doesn't take his medication. I'm sending him a copy of Bernstein's
||| book.
||
||
|| My dad is not yet testing his blood sugar regularly... He was
|| diagnozed a few weeks ago.

Well, I hope he's not walking around with sky-high BG and thinking it is
okay...and then not taking his meds... I'm sure you'll stay on him...

Mirek Fidler wrote:
||| I'm wondering who, if any, follow this plan and what your success
||| has been?
||
|| Why is it OT: ?
||

Well, the author of "The Paleo Diet" considers it a moderate-carbohydrate
diet, not a low-carb diet. He also considers his verison of the paleo diet
a high-protein diet and considers "fad-diets" (his term, and I assume that
includes Atkins) a moderate-protein diet.

Mirek Fidler said:

Quoted message said:

I'm wondering who, if any, follow this plan and what your success has

been?

Why is it OT: ?

It's not necessarily low-carb, and there's another newsgroup for it.
alt.support.diet.paleolithic

It doesn't get a whole lot of traffic, most of the folks are on
mailing lists. IRRC, you can find links to the mailing lists at the
bottom of http://www.paleodiet.com

--
jamie ([email hidden])

"There's a seeker born every minute."

Roger,

There's very conflicting research about the effect of saturated fat, because
all the research on the subject was done with people eating carbs and fat.
I can't draw any conclusions from what I've been able to find in my
research.

However, since there is no doubt at all that sat fat and carbs high enough
to raise blood sugar at all are poison for beta cells, I've tried to
eliminate unnecessary saturated fat any time I'm eating a moderate carb
regimen during maintenance.

Only when you're eating at a level where you blood sugar never goes over
100 mg/dl is it safe to eat high levels of carbs. For me that means carbs
under 36 grams a day. The rest of the time I am using olive and sunflower
oil to cook with in place of butter and cream. I'm also cutting way back on
cheese when my carbs are at a higher level, which they are a lot during
maintenance.

Right now I'm doing a few weeks of very low carb and hence allowing myself
to enjoy the cheese and cream again, but only when blood sugar is low.

Excess Carbs & Sat Fat KILL beta cells. That is very well established by
lots of research.

-- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. Below goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes,
hba1c 5.7 .
Cut the carbs to respond to my email address!

Jenny's new site: What they Don't Tell You About Diabetes
http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u/

Jenny's Low Carb Diet Facts & Figures
http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/

Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm wondering who, if any, follow this plan and what your success has

been?

Quoted message said:

Jenny wrote:
|| Roger,
||
|| There's very conflicting research about the effect of saturated fat,
|| because all the research on the subject was done with people eating
|| carbs and fat. I can't draw any conclusions from what I've been able
|| to find in my research.
||
|| However, since there is no doubt at all that sat fat and carbs high
|| enough to raise blood sugar at all are poison for beta cells, I've
|| tried to eliminate unnecessary saturated fat any time I'm eating a
|| moderate carb regimen during maintenance.

Yeah, I think this point is very well established.

||
|| Only when you're eating at a level where you blood sugar never goes
|| over 100 mg/dl is it safe to eat high levels of carbs.

Did you mean to say "to eat high levels of sat fats"?

For me that
|| means carbs under 36 grams a day. The rest of the time I am using
|| olive and sunflower oil to cook with in place of butter and cream.

Why not canola oil in place of sunflower oil for a better w6 to w3 ratio?

|| I'm also cutting way back on cheese when my carbs are at a higher
|| level, which they are a lot during maintenance.
||

Right. On Paleo, I don't think you'd ever eat much cheese (I'm still not
through the book).

|| Right now I'm doing a few weeks of very low carb and hence allowing
|| myself to enjoy the cheese and cream again, but only when blood
|| sugar is low.

Right.

||
|| Excess Carbs & Sat Fat KILL beta cells. That is very well
|| established by lots of research.

Right.

||
|| -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. Below goal for weight. Type 2
|| diabetes, hba1c 5.7 .
|| Cut the carbs to respond to my email address!
||
|| Jenny's new site: What they Don't Tell You About Diabetes
|| http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u/
||
|| Jenny's Low Carb Diet Facts & Figures
|| http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/
||
|| Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
|| Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm
||
||
|| "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
|| news:[email hidden]...
||| I'm wondering who, if any, follow this plan and what your success
||| has been?

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:14:01 -0400, Jenny <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Roger,

There's very conflicting research about the effect of saturated fat,
because
all the research on the subject was done with people eating carbs and
fat.
I can't draw any conclusions from what I've been able to find in my
research.

However, since there is no doubt at all that sat fat and carbs high
enough
to raise blood sugar at all are poison for beta cells, I've tried to
eliminate unnecessary saturated fat any time I'm eating a moderate carb
regimen during maintenance.

Only when you're eating at a level where you blood sugar never goes over
100 mg/dl is it safe to eat high levels of carbs. For me that means carbs
under 36 grams a day. The rest of the time I am using olive and
sunflower
oil to cook with in place of butter and cream. I'm also cutting way
back on
cheese when my carbs are at a higher level, which they are a lot during
maintenance.

Right now I'm doing a few weeks of very low carb and hence allowing
myself
to enjoy the cheese and cream again, but only when blood sugar is low.

Excess Carbs & Sat Fat KILL beta cells. That is very well established by
lots of research.

[cut]

I searched for "saturated fat 'beta cell'" and didn't find a single
article substantiating this claim. Could you point to some?

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply

jamie wrote:
|| Mirek Fidler <[email hidden]> wrote:
|||| I'm wondering who, if any, follow this plan and what your success
|||| has been?
|||
||| Why is it OT: ?
||
|| It's not necessarily low-carb, and there's another newsgroup for it.
|| alt.support.diet.paleolithic
||
|| It doesn't get a whole lot of traffic, most of the folks are on
|| mailing lists. IRRC, you can find links to the mailing lists at the
|| bottom of http://www.paleodiet.com

Thanks for this info, jamie.

Bob in CT wrote:
|| On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:14:01 -0400, Jenny
|| <[email hidden]> wrote:
||
||| Roger,
|||
||| There's very conflicting research about the effect of saturated fat,
||| because
||| all the research on the subject was done with people eating carbs
||| and fat.
||| I can't draw any conclusions from what I've been able to find in my
||| research.
|||
||| However, since there is no doubt at all that sat fat and carbs high
||| enough
||| to raise blood sugar at all are poison for beta cells, I've tried to
||| eliminate unnecessary saturated fat any time I'm eating a moderate
||| carb regimen during maintenance.
|||
||| Only when you're eating at a level where you blood sugar never
||| goes over 100 mg/dl is it safe to eat high levels of carbs. For me
||| that means carbs under 36 grams a day. The rest of the time I am
||| using olive and sunflower
||| oil to cook with in place of butter and cream. I'm also cutting way
||| back on
||| cheese when my carbs are at a higher level, which they are a lot
||| during maintenance.
|||
||| Right now I'm doing a few weeks of very low carb and hence allowing
||| myself
||| to enjoy the cheese and cream again, but only when blood sugar is
||| low.
|||
||| Excess Carbs & Sat Fat KILL beta cells. That is very well
||| established by lots of research.
|| [cut]
||
|| I searched for "saturated fat 'beta cell'" and didn't find a single
|| article substantiating this claim. Could you point to some?

One thing that concerns me about sat fat is that the meat we typically eat
would contain much less of it if the animals were not grain-fed. So, a
stone-age man would have eaten a lot less sat fat then we do now when eating
a diet high in meat protein.

Ignoramus8954 said:

Some articles that I found, that are controlled studies of people
actually eating saturated fat (and not of in vitro cells), actually
praise saturated fats:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14758868

Findings from cohort studies and trials with intermediary endpoints
have indicated that higher consumption of whole grain products and
exchanging unsaturated fat for saturated fat may lower risk for type 2
diabetes.
================================================================================
Comparison of the effect of saturated and monounsaturated fat on
postprandial plasma glucose and insulin concentration in women with
gestational diabetes mellitus.

Ilic S, Jovanovic L, Pettitt DJ.

Sansum Medical Research Institute, Santa Barbara, California 93105, USA.

The goal of this study was to determine whether the type of fat plays a
role in the glucose response to a meal, independent of the carbohydrate
content. Ten gestational diabetic women (gestational weeks 29-34) who
were well controlled on diet alone were randomized as to the order in
which they would eat a meal, after overnight fast, containing saturated
fat (SF) or monounsaturated fat (MUFA). Blood was drawn at 0, 60, 120,
and 180 min for plasma glucose, insulin, lipid profile (triglycerides,
total cholesterol, HDL-cholesterol, LDL-cholesterol, VLDL-cholesterol)
and free fatty acids. After 2 weeks, each patient received the other
type of meal. The test meal was composed of 20% of the total daily
caloric needs based on ideal body weight. The area under the curve
showed a significantly lower glucose concentration for SF meal (p =
0.001). Serum insulin concentrations followed the glucose response with
the peak at the 60-min time point and a significantly lower concentration
at the 180-min time point in the SF than in the MUFA group. The present
study demonstrated that the addition of SF to the meal resulted in lower
postprandial glucose and insulin than when the meal contained MUFA. Thus,
SF may be useful in controlling postprandial glucose.

PMID: 10774766

I've certainly found this to be true -- a return to exercise (after being
injured and getting out of shape) has helped my blood sugar regulation, as
has low carb eating (as compared with low fat). And, honestly, even
though I don't watch the type of fats I eat, I don't eat that much
saturated fat, as I still tend to be fat phobic after all my years on low
fat. Plus, some fatty meats (like bacon and fatty sausage) I won't cook
simply because of the mess they make.

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply

I have read the first 57 pages of Neanderthin.

I am very interested. When I reach goal, I may try it, except that I am not
prepared to give up dairy products.

I'm curious what he will say about eating insects.

One section, so far, explained that the only other animals that have
appendixes are rabbits and wombats. The unusual thing they have in common
is feces eating. He fails to draw the logical conclusion that humans are
natural feces eaters. I know puppies do it, but adult dogs do not. In an
era before diapers, maybe human babies would eat their feces. I have read
that the nutrients produced by the flora of the lower intestine is wasted.
Perhaps these are nutrients babies need.

I read in this newsgroup an assertion that predators in the wild eat the fat
of an animal first, often leaving behind the lean meat for scavengers. I
googled raw meat eating. I read an expert view that said humans would not
have eaten raw meat because it is very difficult to chew. They didn't say
anything about eating raw fat. I'm thinking a case could be made that
animal fat should be the dominant food source for humans.

Cubit

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm wondering who, if any, follow this plan and what your success has

been?

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:58:12 -0400, Roger Zoul <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Bob in CT wrote:
|| On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:14:01 -0400, Jenny
|| <[email hidden]> wrote:
||
||| Roger,
|||
||| There's very conflicting research about the effect of saturated fat,
||| because
||| all the research on the subject was done with people eating carbs
||| and fat.
||| I can't draw any conclusions from what I've been able to find in my
||| research.
|||
||| However, since there is no doubt at all that sat fat and carbs high
||| enough
||| to raise blood sugar at all are poison for beta cells, I've tried to
||| eliminate unnecessary saturated fat any time I'm eating a moderate
||| carb regimen during maintenance.
|||
||| Only when you're eating at a level where you blood sugar never
||| goes over 100 mg/dl is it safe to eat high levels of carbs. For me
||| that means carbs under 36 grams a day. The rest of the time I am
||| using olive and sunflower
||| oil to cook with in place of butter and cream. I'm also cutting way
||| back on
||| cheese when my carbs are at a higher level, which they are a lot
||| during maintenance.
|||
||| Right now I'm doing a few weeks of very low carb and hence allowing
||| myself
||| to enjoy the cheese and cream again, but only when blood sugar is
||| low.
|||
||| Excess Carbs & Sat Fat KILL beta cells. That is very well
||| established by lots of research.
|| [cut]
||
|| I searched for "saturated fat 'beta cell'" and didn't find a single
|| article substantiating this claim. Could you point to some?

One thing that concerns me about sat fat is that the meat we typically
eat
would contain much less of it if the animals were not grain-fed. So, a
stone-age man would have eaten a lot less sat fat then we do now when
eating
a diet high in meat protein.

That could be true, although I wish I had the money to compare grain-fed
cows with grass-fed cows. Hey, you eat pork, which supposedly has had a
lot of saturated fat bred out of it.

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply

Bob in CT wrote:
|| On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:58:12 -0400, Roger Zoul
|| <[email hidden]> wrote:
||
||| Bob in CT wrote:
||||| On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:14:01 -0400, Jenny
||||| <[email hidden]> wrote:
|||||
|||||| Roger,
||||||
|||||| There's very conflicting research about the effect of saturated
|||||| fat, because
|||||| all the research on the subject was done with people eating carbs
|||||| and fat.
|||||| I can't draw any conclusions from what I've been able to find in
|||||| my research.
||||||
|||||| However, since there is no doubt at all that sat fat and carbs
|||||| high enough
|||||| to raise blood sugar at all are poison for beta cells, I've
|||||| tried to eliminate unnecessary saturated fat any time I'm eating
|||||| a moderate carb regimen during maintenance.
||||||
|||||| Only when you're eating at a level where you blood sugar never
|||||| goes over 100 mg/dl is it safe to eat high levels of carbs. For
|||||| me that means carbs under 36 grams a day. The rest of the time
|||||| I am using olive and sunflower
|||||| oil to cook with in place of butter and cream. I'm also cutting
|||||| way back on
|||||| cheese when my carbs are at a higher level, which they are a lot
|||||| during maintenance.
||||||
|||||| Right now I'm doing a few weeks of very low carb and hence
|||||| allowing myself
|||||| to enjoy the cheese and cream again, but only when blood sugar is
|||||| low.
||||||
|||||| Excess Carbs & Sat Fat KILL beta cells. That is very well
|||||| established by lots of research.
||||| [cut]
|||||
||||| I searched for "saturated fat 'beta cell'" and didn't find a
||||| single article substantiating this claim. Could you point to
||||| some?
|||
||| One thing that concerns me about sat fat is that the meat we
||| typically eat
||| would contain much less of it if the animals were not grain-fed.
||| So, a stone-age man would have eaten a lot less sat fat then we do
||| now when eating
||| a diet high in meat protein.
|||
|||
||
|| That could be true, although I wish I had the money to compare
|| grain-fed cows with grass-fed cows. Hey, you eat pork, which
|| supposedly has had a lot of saturated fat bred out of it.

Interesting...I was not aware of this tidbit. Would you happen to have a
cite on that?

Ignoramus8954 wrote:
|| In article <[email hidden]>, Cubit
|| wrote:
||| I have read the first 57 pages of Neanderthin.
|||
||| I am very interested. When I reach goal, I may try it, except that
||| I am not prepared to give up dairy products.
||
|| I think that his case against dairy is rather weak actually.

Why? Somebody pointed out how hard it would be to make wild animail milk a
staple in the diet of stone-age man.

[cut]

Quoted message said:

Interesting...I was not aware of this tidbit. Would you happen to have a
cite on that?

I've looked some up (I searched for "pork fat breeding"😉. Alton Brown
said that it was true, so I believed him, since he's The Man. ;-) Here's
one cite that says that cutting the meat is what yields lower fat:

http://www.hormel.com/templates/knowledge/knowledge.asp?catitemid=31&id=160

This one talks about how breeding is reducing the saturated fat content in
pork:

http://www.canadapork.com/english/pages/frmsts/iifrmsts/pages/indinf09.html

Others:

http://neworleans.fitdv.com/new/articles/article.html?artid=279
http://www.gov.on.ca/OMAFRA/english/livestock/swine/facts/info_n_tender.htm
http://www.saveonfoods.com/1/brightlife/healthy_eating/pork.htm
www.usmef.org/MeatNutrition/ PorkNutrition_backgrounder.pdf

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply

Ignoramus8954 wrote:
|| In article <[email hidden]>, Roger Zoul wrote:
||| Ignoramus8954 wrote:
||||| In article <[email hidden]>, Cubit
||||| wrote:
|||||| I have read the first 57 pages of Neanderthin.
||||||
|||||| I am very interested. When I reach goal, I may try it, except
|||||| that
|||||| I am not prepared to give up dairy products.
|||||
||||| I think that his case against dairy is rather weak actually.
|||
||| Why? Somebody pointed out how hard it would be to make wild
||| animail milk a staple in the diet of stone-age man.
|||
|||
||
|| I think that Ray did not point much out that is actually wrong with
|| milk. He put forth a good case why grains are bad, but not milk. Milk
|| has a high carb content, but other than that, I am not aware of
|| anything harmful in it, for a person who does not have lactose
|| intolerance and such.
||
|| Because I want a clean experiment, I try to get as little milk
|| products as possible. Since Ray himself said that cheese and butter
|| are least harmful, these are the things that I eat occasionally and
|| in
|| small quantity.

The Paleo book says (on page 50) that the main problem with milk and dairy
is sat fat -- too much of it. This author seems to be a firm believer in
the heart/cholesterol theory. Perhaps that is the main difference between
Neatherthin and The Paleo Diet (don't know for sure).

Ignoramus8954 wrote:
|| In article <[email hidden]>, Roger Zoul wrote:
||| Ignoramus8954 wrote:
||||| In article <[email hidden]>, Roger Zoul wrote:
|||||| Ignoramus8954 wrote:
|||||||| In article <[email hidden]>,
|||||||| Cubit wrote:
||||||||| I have read the first 57 pages of Neanderthin.
|||||||||
||||||||| I am very interested. When I reach goal, I may try it, except
||||||||| that
||||||||| I am not prepared to give up dairy products.
||||||||
|||||||| I think that his case against dairy is rather weak actually.
||||||
|||||| Why? Somebody pointed out how hard it would be to make wild
|||||| animail milk a staple in the diet of stone-age man.
||||||
||||||
|||||
||||| I think that Ray did not point much out that is actually wrong
||||| with milk. He put forth a good case why grains are bad, but not
||||| milk. Milk has a high carb content, but other than that, I am not
||||| aware of anything harmful in it, for a person who does not have
||||| lactose intolerance and such.
|||||
||||| Because I want a clean experiment, I try to get as little milk
||||| products as possible. Since Ray himself said that cheese and
||||| butter
||||| are least harmful, these are the things that I eat occasionally
||||| and
||||| in
||||| small quantity.
|||
||| The Paleo book says (on page 50) that the main problem with milk
||| and dairy is sat fat -- too much of it. This author seems to be a
||| firm believer in the heart/cholesterol theory. Perhaps that is the
||| main difference between Neatherthin and The Paleo Diet (don't know
||| for sure).
||
|| Oh, I see. I find it amusing that one paleo author is a big fan of
|| saturated fat, whereas another author is against saturated fat. Not
|| having read your book, I cannot comment.
||
|| Based on what I read, and that includes a few randomized studies, it
|| does not seem like sat fat is much of a danger when the person has
|| normal blood sugars.
||
|| Whether it is a danger to a person with abnormal blood sugar, is not
|| clear to me.

Well, high BG levels due to overcomsumption of carbs combined with too much
sat fat as been shown to be heart unhealthy (as well as fattening since this
generally leads to excessive consumption of food). This is a strong
arugment for both low-carb and high-protein diets.

Ignoramus8954 said:

In article said:

Well, high BG levels due to overcomsumption of carbs combined with too
much
sat fat as been shown to be heart unhealthy (as well as fattening since
this
generally leads to excessive consumption of food). This is a strong
arugment for both low-carb and high-protein diets.

So, the damage from carbs combined with sat fat is greater than from
carbs alone? Is that what you are saying?

I would like to see studies comparing something like this:

1. one group of people eating X grams of carbs and Y grams of sat fat
2. Another group eating X grams of carbs and no or much less sat fat
(replaced with some other fat).

And try 3., where the carb content is very low but sat. fat is eaten.

Quoted message said:

It would be interesting to see how well these two groups do.

I remember that the nurses study did not find relationship between sat
fat intake and heart disease, although, Ihasten to add, I do not have
a reference handy.

I am not yet completely convinced that sat fat is safe to eat, but I
am leaning in this direction.

i

It appears to me that blood sugar/insulin and inflammation are the primary
culprits for heart disease, although I also feel that arteriosclerosis
(sp? Hardening of the arteries) is something that occurs due to age. It
cannot be stopped.

--
Bob in CT
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