OT railways and green transport

Bryan said:

I want to be green, but in the face of these current train fiasco, I'm
finding it very difficult to justify being. (I don't drive though, so
at least I can still claim some green credentials :-)

Last year I had to go to London from Hull for an interview with BBC
radio. The return fare was 75 quid on Hull Trains. Wife + two daughters
wanted to come as well which instantly put up the cost of the trip to
300 quid!

We took the car, stayed overnight in a 4 star hotel and still had
change from 100 pounds. Once 3 or 4 in a family want to go on the train
the cost soon becomes silly.

"Bryan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

OK so I know everyone has to make money, and that certain fgforms of
transport are subsidised more than others (whether fairly or not). but
what happend this week is ridiculous.

I immediately thought of the trian, the cheapest I could do it was £58,
with a 4 hours journey time back. It also takes me 45 minutes (on a
good day) to get form home to Euston, and another 30 minutes at
Manchester to get to my mates house. On a whim I thought I'd check out
flights, turns out Ican gdo the journey CHEAPER by flying than the
train, and in addition I live a bus ride from Heathrow, and I have less
of a journey when I get to Manchester. Even allowing for longer
check-in times I should be an over an hour quicker getting there and
nearly 2 hours getting back

I want to be green, but in the face of these current train fiasco, I'm
finding it very difficult to justify being. (I don't drive though, so
at least I can still claim some green credentials :-)

Bryan

What day/time are you travelling? You can get much cheaper fares if you book
in advance. I'm surprised it would take four hours to get back - the journey
time from Manchester to Euston is 2hrs 20 mins.

[email hidden] wrote on 19/08/2006 00:24 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Last year I had to go to London from Hull for an interview with BBC
radio. The return fare was 75 quid on Hull Trains. Wife + two daughters
wanted to come as well which instantly put up the cost of the trip to
300 quid!

Family railcard? Would reduce that to £160.

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 06:22:28 +1000 someone who may be Bryan
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

I immediately thought of the trian, the cheapest I could do it was £58,
with a 4 hours journey time back. It also takes me 45 minutes (on a
good day) to get form home to Euston, and another 30 minutes at
Manchester to get to my mates house. On a whim I thought I'd check out
flights, turns out Ican gdo the journey CHEAPER by flying than the
train,

Often such comparisons are comparing apples with oranges, with the
result being bananas. The usual flaw is to compare a train ticket
that may be used on any train, including it being no problem if one
has to delay one's return for a few days, with an aeroplane ticket
that is far less flexible. Another flaw is to believe the prices
aeroplane companies quote.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Tony Raven said:

[email hidden] wrote on 19/08/2006 00:24 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Last year I had to go to London from Hull for an interview with BBC
radio. The return fare was 75 quid on Hull Trains. Wife + two daughters
wanted to come as well which instantly put up the cost of the trip to
300 quid!

Family railcard? Would reduce that to £160.

The question is whether staff in a ticket office would tell you that.
The Trainline certainly doesn't.

If you're an infrequent rail user, how are you meant to know the deals
that are available? It's frustrating.

Tom

On 18 Aug 2006 16:24:12 -0700 someone who may be "[email hidden]"
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Last year I had to go to London from Hull for an interview with BBC
radio. The return fare was 75 quid on Hull Trains. Wife + two daughters
wanted to come as well which instantly put up the cost of the trip to
300 quid!

I have just looked up tickets for 28/8, a day trip from Hull to
London. The cheapest fare I could see was £96 each way, for four
adults. £24 each, each way. Had I looked for September I could
probably have found fares at £38 each way, for four adults. The
interview might have been arranged at shorter notice, but with say
four weeks notice a trip for £78, for four adults, is possible.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 09:26:01 +0100,

David Hansen said:

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 06:22:28 +1000 someone who may be Bryan
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

I immediately thought of the trian, the cheapest I could do it was £58,
with a 4 hours journey time back. It also takes me 45 minutes (on a
good day) to get form home to Euston, and another 30 minutes at
Manchester to get to my mates house. On a whim I thought I'd check out
flights, turns out Ican gdo the journey CHEAPER by flying than the
train,

Often such comparisons are comparing apples with oranges, with the
result being bananas. The usual flaw is to compare a train ticket
that may be used on any train, including it being no problem if one
has to delay one's return for a few days, with an aeroplane ticket
that is far less flexible. Another flaw is to believe the prices
aeroplane companies quote.

However, it's easier to buy the non-flexible fares on aircraft near to
the travel date.

I was travelling up to Durham on the Friday of the (fortunately called
off) signalmans strike. Taking a days holiday and returning on Monday
evening.

I was perfectly willing to move my travel from Friday->Monday to
Thursday->Sunday.

My Friday ticket could be used on Thursday but my Monday ticket couldn't
be used on Sunday. IIRC The _cheapest_ Sunday ticket I could buy was just
60GBP cheaper than the airfare from City Airport to Newcastle
International on the Friday. I might even have got 30GBP of it back by
not using my train ticket on the Friday although I'm not sure as I'd
still have used the other half (it was two singles but bought at the
same time). Moving my Monday ticket to Sunday and staying in first class
would presumably have been about 100GBP more than the (cheapest)
airfare.

I hate travelling on the train on a Sunday afternoon, early evening on
GNER. The train is usually packed and, coincidentally I'm sure, the
seat reservation printer has usually broken.[1]

Tim.

[1] It's funny how the probability of the seat reservation printer
breaking is directly proportional to the probability of the train being
overbooked. Last year for the weekend of the Great North Run I got the
last seat in first class at Durham (train started at Newcastle) and
there were first class passengers standing for the journey. This year I
made sure I wasn't travelling that weekend.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/

Quoted message said:

Last year I had to go to London from Hull for an interview with BBC
radio. The return fare was 75 quid on Hull Trains. Wife + two daughters
wanted to come as well which instantly put up the cost of the trip to
300 quid!

We took the car, stayed overnight in a 4 star hotel and still had
change from 100 pounds. Once 3 or 4 in a family want to go on the train
the cost soon becomes silly.

£100? That's because you only counted the cost of petrol for transport.
The actual cost of an overnight trip to London in the car is nearer £200,
including parking but not the hotel. Even if you just include the differential
costs, i.e. petrol, tyres and servicing, it is still higher than you thought.

Did you get the job?

--
Eiron

No good deed ever goes unpunished.

"Eiron" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Last year I had to go to London from Hull for an interview with BBC
radio. The return fare was 75 quid on Hull Trains. Wife + two daughters
wanted to come as well which instantly put up the cost of the trip to
300 quid!

We took the car, stayed overnight in a 4 star hotel and still had
change from 100 pounds. Once 3 or 4 in a family want to go on the train
the cost soon becomes silly.

£100? That's because you only counted the cost of petrol for transport.
The actual cost of an overnight trip to London in the car is nearer £200,
including parking but not the hotel. Even if you just include the
differential
costs, i.e. petrol, tyres and servicing, it is still higher than you
thought.

Did you get the job?

It wasn't for a job - it was for a radio show ->
http://www.simonmason.karoo.net/page485.htm

The fuel costs was 180 miles x 2 = 360 miles. At 35 mpg that uses 10.5
gallons = 47 litres. At UKP 0.88 per litre (last year) that is 41 quid or
so. My daughter worked for Novotel and got cheap rooms (parking included)
for 60 quid = 101 quid.

OK, there's food, but we would have eaten on the train at enormous expense
anyway.

I understand the cheaper rail tickets as well, it's just that it takes a
heck of a lot of ferreting around to make sense of all of the different
tariffs.

--
Simon Mason
http://www.simonmason.karoo.net

Quoted message said:

Bryan said:

I want to be green, but in the face of these current train fiasco, I'm
finding it very difficult to justify being. (I don't drive though, so
at least I can still claim some green credentials :-)

Last year I had to go to London from Hull .... Wife + two daughters
wanted to come as well which instantly put up the cost of the trip to
300 quid!

We took the car, stayed overnight in a 4 star hotel and still had
change from 100 pounds. Once 3 or 4 in a family want to go on the train
the cost soon becomes silly.

Agree completely that the trend to discourage turn up and go rail
travel with high fares is counter-productive. But the good news is
that per passenger your trip probably cost less energy by car. Trains
are getting less energy-efficient, and cars aren't that bad if fully
occupied.

Of course, this requires the assumption that if more people went by
train, more trains would be provided.

Colin McKenzie

--
On average in Britain, you're more likely to get a head injury walking
a mile than cycling it.
So why aren't we all exhorted to wear walking helmets?

"Colin McKenzie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Of course, this requires the assumption that if more people went by
train, more trains would be provided.

More track would have to be laid first, as they don't seem to be capable
of putting more trains on the track that we do have.

Dave Lloyd
So open minded, my brains dribbled out.

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 14:42:52 +0100 someone who may be "Simon Mason"
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

I understand the cheaper rail tickets as well, it's just that it takes a
heck of a lot of ferreting around to make sense of all of the different
tariffs.

Using a web based system it tells you what tickets are available for
which train. Not perfect, but still very useful.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Simon Mason said:

I understand the cheaper rail tickets as well, it's just that it takes a
heck of a lot of ferreting around to make sense of all of the different
tariffs.

On nationalrail.co.uk (national rail enquiries) there's a 'find cheapest
tickets' option, otherwise it somehow decides which ones you want.

--
Stephen Patterson :: [email hidden] :: http://patter.mine.nu/
GPG: E3E8E974 :: Jabber: [email hidden]
"At night, the razor weasels come."

I'm a terribly dedicated environmentalist these days and you wouldn't
coax me onto an aircraft for love nor money.

But there are some pretty steep barriers to entry to public transport
for former drivers/flyers such as me. Four years ago I could barely
make sense of a timetable let alone track down bargain fares. I suppose
though, that I'd be equally put off by the bureaucracy and requirements
for driving if I came from a cold start.

These days I clock up a lot of rail miles and love it. I've often paid
absolute give-away prices for tickets (eg since FGW took over the
route, £9 Pompey->Plymouth or, with Virgin, £30 FC Soton->Sheffield).
Occasionally I get stung for the full whack (the corker being me, wife,
two sprogs, FC, Soton->Newcastle rtn [1])

OTOH, I save in excess of £500 a month by not owning a car these days.
I'm easily quids in. Whenever people say, "gosh that's a lot", I have
to point out that, if I were to drive as they seem to be making the
comparison against, I'd have to spend £100 on petrol but only after
I'd spent £20,000 buying a car.

And don't believe those airline prices. My sis-in-law thought she'd got
a bargain with CheapoJet at 10p a ticket Stanstead to Biarritz. It
turned out to be about £40 e/w once taxes, fuel surcharges etc were
added on. Due to various [censored] ups she missed the rtn flight and ended
up paying £300 single for that leg of the trip.

A couple of years ago I travelled with the family to the South of
France for a hol. First Class by rail was 20% more than CheapoJet
(rail, unlike air, discounts for kids and codgers). In fact, factoring
in costs to and from airports meant that a champagne breakfast out of
Waterloo was cheaper than bring-your-own-flask out of Stanstead.

[1] The ticket chap said "are you sure?"

Not Responding said:

But there are some pretty steep barriers to entry to public transport
for former drivers/flyers such as me. Four years ago I could barely
make sense of a timetable let alone track down bargain fares. I suppose
though, that I'd be equally put off by the bureaucracy and requirements
for driving if I came from a cold start.

And is using a timetable really any more demanding than using maps to
plan and then follow a road route (esp. when driving without someone
else reading the map beside you) ?

Jon

tom said:

Tony Raven said:

Family railcard? Would reduce that to £160.

The question is whether staff in a ticket office would tell you that.
The Trainline certainly doesn't.

If you're an infrequent rail user, how are you meant to know the deals
that are available? It's frustrating.

When you come to calculate the fare Trainline allows you to select from
among the various Railcards, so you can actually see what difference it
makes although finding the cheapest fare is a very long-winded process.

--
Dave...

dkahn400 said:

tom said:

Tony Raven said:

Family railcard? Would reduce that to £160.

The question is whether staff in a ticket office would tell you that.
The Trainline certainly doesn't.

If you're an infrequent rail user, how are you meant to know the deals
that are available? It's frustrating.

When you come to calculate the fare Trainline allows you to select from
among the various Railcards, so you can actually see what difference it
makes although finding the cheapest fare is a very long-winded process.

is
www.nationalrail.co.uk any better ?

Quoted message said:

Not Responding said:

But there are some pretty steep barriers to entry to public transport
for former drivers/flyers such as me. Four years ago I could barely
make sense of a timetable let alone track down bargain fares. I suppose
though, that I'd be equally put off by the bureaucracy and requirements
for driving if I came from a cold start.

Quoted message said:

And is using a timetable really any more demanding than using maps to
plan and then follow a road route (esp. when driving without someone
else reading the map beside you) ?

It didn't used to be, in the old days when you could buy the total
national railway timetable for IIRC less than seven quid. But nowadays
there's no timetable which has the train times, because the only way
to find out some rural times is to visit the station and then find
someone who can tell you which of the three different timetables on
display is the right one. And the trains no longer care much about
arriving on time, and when they don't, the connection you intended to
make doesn't get held up, if indeed it happens to be running at all.

I used to like planning and making complicated rail journeys across
Britain. It's no longer possible. There are some things which
competition doesn't improve, such as medicine, railways, and burglary.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Chris Malcolm said:

I used to like planning and making complicated rail journeys across
Britain. It's no longer possible. There are some things which
competition doesn't improve, such as medicine, railways, and burglary.

I recently tried a route from where I live to Scotland on
http://www.traveline.org.uk/
First instruction was "walk 7km to Dursley Railway Station. How I
waded/swam across the River Severn it didn't explain....