OT: Mercedes Steaming Along

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

news.bbc.co.uk3323527.stmOpen ↗

Three buses powered by hydrogen are to be introduced on routes in central London as part of a two-
year trial.

The buses, which are the first of their kind in the UK, look like conventional single decker buses
but their only emissions will be a trail of steam.

London is one of nine European cities participating in the trial as part of a European scheme to
reduce pollution.

It is hoped the trial will find out whether the expensive fuel cell technology can become more
efficient.

Route 25 between Oxford Circus and Ilford has been chosen as the first route for the new buses.

Transport for London (TfL) said it would provide a good test because it is a long and busy route
which runs from the centre of London and through the East End with a wide variety of traffic
conditions.

These buses are the greenest, cleanest and quietest ever Ken Livingstone, Mayor of London

The fuel cell buses, made by Mercedes, will run alongside conventional double-decker buses on
the route.

TfL said this will enable a proper assessment of how the fuel cell system performs day-by-day.

Mike Weston, head of operations for London Buses, told BBC London that they may be introduced
London-wide.

"They're proving more reliable than everybody expected for new technology and in some cities they
say you see passengers waiting to get on the fuel cell bus as opposed to other vehicles," he said.

No emissions

London mayor Ken Livingstone, who rode on one of the £800,000 buses, added: "These buses are the
greenest, cleanest and quietest ever.

"They will bring the sight of steam back to the capital."

The liquid hydrogen is delivered to a fuelling site where it is dispensed as a gas into
pressurised cylinders.

These cylinders are placed on top of the bus with the fuel cell system and coolers.

The only emission is water, which forms into a vapour cloud as it leaves the exhaust.

The bus can run for 125 miles before refuelling

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
chapmancentral.demon.co.ukchapmancentral.demon.co.ukOpen ↗

Whilst anything that reduces traffic pollution is 'A Good Thing ',what seems to be constantly
overlooked is the zero effect on congestion.If we move down the fuel cell/hydrogen route for
propulsion then yes pollution at source will be reduced but if you are sat in gridlock it doesn't
really matter whether the vehicle is hydrogen powered or petrol powered,you are still in a traffic
jam.I think car manufacturers like to keep us ignorant of this fact by implying that everything will
be OK if cars are hydrogen powered.Then of course there is the problem of how the hydrogen is
produced.If it is simply by fossil fuel powered methods then you have gained little above shifting
the pollution from the roads to the power stations.

Finally there is also the fact that water vapour is also a greenhouse gas.

You just can't win can you. Lets all stick to our bikes.

Sam Salt.

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Quoted message said:

Finally there is also the fact that water vapour is also a greenhouse gas.

Indeed - a fact that often gets overlooked. Cheers, helen s

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Just zis Guy said:

London mayor Ken Livingstone, who rode on one of the £800,000 buses, added: "These buses are the
greenest, cleanest and quietest ever.

"They will bring the sight of steam back to the capital."

I certainly hope not! Those people brave enough to cycle (or even live) in London have enough to
deal with, without steam being emitted at shin-level by these new buses!

...either that, or Red Ken doesn't know the difference between Water Vapour and Steam?

Pete.
--

Peter Connolly Derby UK

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:

Quoted message said:

Finally there is also the fact that water vapour is also a greenhouse gas.

Indeed - a fact that often gets overlooked.

However, water vapour is also produced by conventional ICEs, though less of it than would be
produced by a hydrogen powered vehicle.

The problem with CO2 is that it lingers in the atmosphere from a long time. Water vapour forms
clouds and falls out of the sky as rain. The effect isn't as long-term as with burning fossil fuels.

Simon

Yes, but, they'll still be driven bus drivers, the Spawn of Stan :-(

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"Peter Connolly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I certainly hope not! Those people brave enough to cycle (or even live) in London have enough to
deal with, without steam being emitted at shin-level by these new buses!

I'd rather have pure water coming out of their exhausts than the noxious stuff we get now. Don't
worry, it won't be a high pressure jet of scalding steam - just a nice clean exhaust. What about the
industrial processes required to produce the hydrogen though? Doesn't this just relocate the
pollution?

--
Dave...

"Peter Connolly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Just zis Guy said:

London mayor Ken Livingstone, who rode on one of the £800,000 buses, added: "These buses are the
greenest, cleanest and quietest ever.

"They will bring the sight of steam back to the capital."

I certainly hope not! Those people brave enough to cycle (or even live) in London have enough to
deal with, without steam being emitted at shin-level by these new buses!

...either that, or Red Ken doesn't know the difference between Water Vapour and Steam?

There isn't necessarily a difference. The primary definition of steam in the OED is "a vapour or
fume given out when a substance is heated", so Ken's emmissions are rightly called steam. It's not
until you get to definition 6a in the OED that the modern scientific definition that you are
alluding to, "water in the form of an invisible gas", is given.

Cheers, James ;-)

Simon Proven said:

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:

Quoted message said:

Finally there is also the fact that water vapour is also a greenhouse gas.

Indeed - a fact that often gets overlooked.

However, water vapour is also produced by conventional ICEs, though less of it than would be
produced by a hydrogen powered vehicle.

The problem with CO2 is that it lingers in the atmosphere from a long time. Water vapour
forms clouds and falls out of the sky as rain. The effect isn't as long-term as with burning
fossil fuels.

But compared to CO2 dihydrogen monoxide is a seriously scary chemical (
samsara.circus.com~no dhmoOpen ↗)

Tony

(Dave Kahn) said:

"Peter Connolly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I certainly hope not! Those people brave enough to cycle (or even live) in London have enough to
deal with, without steam being emitted at shin-level by these new buses!

I'd rather have pure water coming out of their exhausts than the noxious stuff we get now. Don't
worry, it won't be a high pressure jet of scalding steam - just a nice clean exhaust. What about
the industrial processes required to produce the hydrogen though? Doesn't this just relocate the
pollution?

you just whack some electricity through a bucket of water, don't you?

assuming the electricity doen't come from [impractcal] acreages either of wind farms, biomass or
photvoltaics then it'll be good ol' fossil fuels. i'm sure someone has done the sustainability-
accountancy to show that [a] losses between oil well + wheel are less and [b] pollution is more
effectively controlled at a central power station than at j. bloggs buses ltd.

what i would find more worrying is that the bloody things will be effectively silent as they creep
up behind you without a diesel clattering away.

when[1] the majority of vehicles are electric or hybrid, our streets will be far quieter and much
more pleasant but also rather scary.

[1] it will happen. probably hybrids; toyota have a good one on sale now which has a button for
'electric' mode [ie silent]. peugeot are developing a diesel-electric hybrid. honda offer a
hybrid civic - although it never runs in electric only.

Tony Raven said:

samsara.circus.com~no dhmoOpen ↗

Stupid but hilarious ;-)

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
chapmancentral.demon.co.ukchapmancentral.demon.co.ukOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Yes, but, they'll still be driven bus drivers, the Spawn of Stan :-(

Ones again, Dave cuts through the cr*p to the heart of the issue :-Þ

Cheers, helen s --This is an invalid email address to avoid spam-- to get correct one remove
dependency on fame & fortune h*$el*$$e**nd***$o$ts***i*$*$m**m$$o*n**s@$*$a$$o**l.c**$*$om$$

"[Not Responding]" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(Dave Kahn) said:

"Peter Connolly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd rather have pure water coming out of their exhausts than the noxious stuff we get now....What
about the industrial processes required to produce the hydrogen though?

Quoted message said:

you just whack some electricity through a bucket of water, don't you? ... what i would find more
worrying is that the bloody things will be effectively silent as they creep up behind you without
a diesel clattering away.

when[1] the majority of vehicles are electric or hybrid, our streets will be far quieter and much
more pleasant but also rather scary.

time to buy shares in that spokeydoke company?

best wishes james

Quoted message said:

But ggod old dihydrogenmonoxide is still a green house gas, even if not as bad as carbon dioxide,
methane and the like.

And the pesky oceans are chucking it out at a phenomonal rate. Time for a few sandtrout I think.

Richard Webb

Tony Raven said:

Simon Proven said:

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:

> Finally there is also the fact that water vapour is also a greenhouse gas.

Indeed - a fact that often gets overlooked.

However, water vapour is also produced by conventional ICEs, though less of it than would be
produced by a hydrogen powered vehicle.

The problem with CO2 is that it lingers in the atmosphere from a long time. Water vapour
forms clouds and falls out of the sky as rain. The effect isn't as long-term as with burning
fossil fuels.

But compared to CO2 dihydrogen monoxide is a seriously scary chemical (
samsara.circus.com~no dhmoOpen ↗)

Evil stuff, as is Hydrogen Hydroxide. We must be protected from this menace.

Richard Webb