OT Idea for alternative power.

Sniper8052(L96A1) said:

I sent this to the PM just now as my son has asked what I did about the
idea I had for alternative power, just wondered what you think and if
you could suggest who else to send it to to get a movement of conversation.

All the best

Sniper8052

Neat. I've often felt that management of roadside biomass is a missed
opportunity too.

--
Chris

Sniper8052(L96A1) said:

By fixing compact wind turbines to the tops or sides of suitable lamp
standards a large amount of power could easily and cheaply be
generated. Such turbines are already used to provide alternative
domestic power supplies and are readily available.

Wind turbines have lots of moving parts, which therefore means maintenance
on a regular basis. The number required for a nationwide rollout would
require thousands of engineers. There will be lots of constant noise, which
will be heard by local households - and in the early hours this will never
be drowned out by cars.

Lots of roadsigns are now powered by solar power, which has the benefit of
being low-maintenance (change the battery every few years) and quiet. Far
fewer engineers are needed, and no connection to the electricity grid is
needed.

Pete.

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:02:23 GMT,

Sniper8052(L96A1) said:

By fixing compact wind turbines to the tops or sides of suitable lamp
standards a large amount of power could easily and cheaply be generated.
Such turbines are already used to provide alternative domestic power
supplies and are readily available.

Nice idea. I'm not sure how economically viable it is unless and until
we get proper costings for carbon emissions though.

I think[1] these turbines are of the order of 3-6k for a 3kW turbine (where
in practice average power output is about 600W). So something like
15kWh/day or about 1.50GBP electricty. So we are looking at something
like 10 years to pay for themselves even assuming zero maintenance.

Obviously there should be some economies of scale if a few hundred
thousand are planted.

I'm also not sure what sort of forces they might put on the lampposts.
If they also need replacing then it's going to be extremely costly.

Tim.

[1] I read about this a few months ago and this is my recollection but I
could be out by an order of magnitude on any of these figures especially
as the article I was reading covered the very small to the very big
turbines so I might have got some numbers crossed somewhere.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/

"PeteC" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sniper8052(L96A1) said:

By fixing compact wind turbines to the tops or sides of suitable lamp
standards a large amount of power could easily and cheaply be
generated. Such turbines are already used to provide alternative
domestic power supplies and are readily available.

Wind turbines have lots of moving parts, which therefore means maintenance
on a regular basis. The number required for a nationwide rollout would
require thousands of engineers. There will be lots of constant noise,
which will be heard by local households - and in the early hours this will
never be drowned out by cars.

Modern turbines are almost silent in their operation. There is almost as
much misinformation about wind turbines as there is about Another Subject
which frequently appears on this newsgroup ;-)

Cheers, helen s

"Sniper8052(L96A1)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I sent this to the PM just now as my son has asked what I did about the
idea I had for alternative power, just wondered what you think and if you
could suggest who else to send it to to get a movement of conversation.

All the best

Sniper8052

Whilst driving on holiday and using the Motorway and A road systems it
occured to me that the same infrastructure which is being used to light
the roads could also be used to generate power.

By fixing compact wind turbines to the tops or sides of suitable lamp
standards a large amount of power could easily and cheaply be generated.
Such turbines are already used to provide alternative domestic power
supplies and are readily available.

The advantages that I see with this approach are:

1) The basic support is already available and in place.
2) The same wiring can be used to transmit the power into the national
grid as is used to power the light when in use.
3) The turbine units are simple to install and replace.
4) There would be very little if any opposition as the land is:
a)Already owned by the government.
b)Already being used.
c)Any noise would be very minimal and would more likely be masked by
traffic - at night the turbines could be feathered as they would not be
generating power.
5)Cost - Using existing land and structures the only outlay would be on
the support fixing, turbine and switching.
6)The technology is availabe now.
7)A recent study showed that micro-generation has the capability of
producing more power, more efficiently, more cheaply and in a more
environmentally friendly way than any other source.

Clearly there will be issues which I am not qualified to address here but
this idea has, I feel, very much to recommend it above those approaches
being pursued at present.

not powerful enough, not windy enough (thats why wind turbines are usually
on top of hills in particular areas and not just any old place), may well
cost more to make than the energy they would produce would be worth, may
well cost more in energy to make than they will ever recover, will take a
large amount of energy to install (taking all the transport and engineering
costs into account plus modifying the grid).
If micro-generation is such a good idea, how come you dont have one in your
garden? .....the answer is, all the above.

--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

"Sniper8052(L96A1)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Whilst driving on holiday and using the Motorway and A road systems it
occured to me that the same infrastructure which is being used to light
the roads could also be used to generate power.

By fixing compact wind turbines to the tops or sides of suitable lamp
standards a large amount of power could easily and cheaply be generated.

Bugger that, just put solar cells under the light.

--
Morton

"wafflycat" <waffles*A*T*v21net*D*O*T*co*D*O*T*uk> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"PeteC" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sniper8052(L96A1) said:

By fixing compact wind turbines to the tops or sides of suitable lamp
standards a large amount of power could easily and cheaply be
generated. Such turbines are already used to provide alternative
domestic power supplies and are readily available.

Wind turbines have lots of moving parts, which therefore means

maintenance

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on a regular basis. The number required for a nationwide rollout would
require thousands of engineers. There will be lots of constant noise,
which will be heard by local households - and in the early hours this

will

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

never be drowned out by cars.

Modern turbines are almost silent in their operation. There is almost as
much misinformation about wind turbines as there is about Another Subject
which frequently appears on this newsgroup ;-)

Cheers, helen s

Laminate the road. Make the suface float on piezo-electric crystals above a
fixed substrate.

--
Morton

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Tumbleweed

(') said:

"Sniper8052(L96A1)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I sent this to the PM just now as my son has asked what I did about the
idea I had for alternative power, just wondered what you think and if
you could suggest who else to send it to to get a movement of
conversation.

All the best

Sniper8052

Whilst driving on holiday and using the Motorway and A road systems it
occured to me that the same infrastructure which is being used to
light the roads could also be used to generate power.

By fixing compact wind turbines to the tops or sides of suitable lamp
standards a large amount of power could easily and cheaply be
generated. Such turbines are already used to provide alternative
domestic power supplies and are readily available.

The advantages that I see with this approach are:

1) The basic support is already available and in place.
2) The same wiring can be used to transmit the power into the national
grid as is used to power the light when in use.
3) The turbine units are simple to install and replace.
4) There would be very little if any opposition as the land is:
a)Already owned by the government.
b)Already being used.
c)Any noise would be very minimal and would more likely be masked by
traffic - at night the turbines could be feathered as they would not
be generating power.
5)Cost - Using existing land and structures the only outlay would be
on the support fixing, turbine and switching.
6)The technology is availabe now.
7)A recent study showed that micro-generation has the capability of
producing more power, more efficiently, more cheaply and in a more
environmentally friendly way than any other source.

Clearly there will be issues which I am not qualified to address here
but this idea has, I feel, very much to recommend it above those
approaches being pursued at present.

not powerful enough, not windy enough (thats why wind turbines are
usually
on top of hills in particular areas and not just any old place), may
well cost more to make than the energy they would produce would be
worth, may well cost more in energy to make than they will ever
recover, will take a large amount of energy to install (taking all the
transport and engineering costs into account plus modifying the grid).
If micro-generation is such a good idea, how come you dont have one in
your garden? .....the answer is, all the above.

Errr... you're wrong about most of that. Micro-generation /is/ a good
idea, and within twenty years I predict most people /will/ have one on
their roofs or in their gardens. Not only is there substantial wind
energy to exploit over most of Britain, generation at the point of use
cuts out transmission losses and so is more efficient.

In particular, Sniper's suggestion would certainly produce a net surplus
over the power needed to illuminate the lights, and as he says the
turbines are cheap.

Excellent idea, in my opinion.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Skill without imagination is craftsmanship and gives us
;; many useful objects such as wickerwork picnic baskets.
;; Imagination without skill gives us modern art.
;; Tom Stoppard, Artist Descending A Staircase

in message <[email hidden]>, Tim

Woodall (') said:

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:02:23 GMT,

Sniper8052(L96A1) said:

By fixing compact wind turbines to the tops or sides of suitable lamp
standards a large amount of power could easily and cheaply be
generated.
Such turbines are already used to provide alternative domestic power
supplies and are readily available.

Nice idea. I'm not sure how economically viable it is unless and until
we get proper costings for carbon emissions though.

I think[1] these turbines are of the order of 3-6k for a 3kW turbine
(where in practice average power output is about 600W).

That price includes the tower and erection, I think. These towers are
already up. Also, you would not need to use 3Kw units. Related question
- what would the cost/efficiency equation be of replacing motorway
lighting with LED-based units?

Quoted message said:

I'm also not sure what sort of forces they might put on the lampposts.
If they also need replacing then it's going to be extremely costly.

That's a fair point. However, if tubines were only installed as the
towers were being replaced anyway in planned maintenance, the extra cost
could be very small.

Mind you, the best way to improve energy efficiency of street lighting
would simply be to remove it altogether, and reduce the amount of light
pollution. Most children in Britain have never seen a really starry sky.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Morning had broken, and I found when I looked that we had run out
of copper roove nails.

in message <[email hidden]>, PeteC

(') said:

Sniper8052(L96A1) said:

By fixing compact wind turbines to the tops or sides of suitable lamp
standards a large amount of power could easily and cheaply be
generated. Such turbines are already used to provide alternative
domestic power supplies and are readily available.

Wind turbines have lots of moving parts, which therefore means
maintenance on a regular basis. The number required for a nationwide
rollout would require thousands of engineers. There will be lots of
constant noise, which will be heard by local households - and in the
early hours this will never be drowned out by cars.

Have you actually seen one of these things? Go down to your local marina.
Every second yacht will have one. They sit out there, in a marine
environment with lots of salt, get no maintenance, and keep on working
for years. Very quietly.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; lovely alternative to rice.

Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> wrote in news:b3ier2-fcv.ln1
@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk:

Quoted message said:

Mind you, the best way to improve energy efficiency of street lighting
would simply be to remove it altogether, and reduce the amount of light
pollution.

When my dad visited China in the 80's he was surprised that there was very
little/no street lighting and most vehicles (mainly trucks and buses) used
only side lights. Apparently this was so they didn't dazzle the lightless
cyclists. Makes perfect sense to me.

Quoted message said:

Most children in Britain have never seen a really starry sky.

That's one of the things I love about living here in Australia. When you go
camping you're often hundreds of kilometres away from even small towns so
you get to see the most spectacular skies. Even where I am at the moment on
the outskirts of Perth, I see more than I could whenever I went up the
Pentland Hills at night. Of course, I recognise hardly any of the
constellations at the moment, but give me time 🙂

Graeme

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Tumbleweed
([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not powerful enough, not windy enough (thats why wind turbines are
usually
on top of hills in particular areas and not just any old place), may
well cost more to make than the energy they would produce would be
worth, may well cost more in energy to make than they will ever
recover, will take a large amount of energy to install (taking all the
transport and engineering costs into account plus modifying the grid).
If micro-generation is such a good idea, how come you dont have one in
your garden? .....the answer is, all the above.

Errr... you're wrong about most of that. Micro-generation /is/ a good
idea, and within twenty years I predict most people /will/ have one on
their roofs or in their gardens. Not only is there substantial wind
energy to exploit over most of Britain, generation at the point of use
cuts out transmission losses and so is more efficient.

compared to what? He wasnt (I think) promoting driving the lights directly
from the turbines.
In that case, you wouldnt just need a turbine, you'd need batteries,
converters, controlling equipment.

Quoted message said:

In particular, Sniper's suggestion would certainly produce a net surplus
over the power needed to illuminate the lights, and as he says the
turbines are cheap.

Excellent idea, in my opinion.

When you say 'in 20 years' do you mean 'in 20 years time the efficiency and
cost (and rising price of electricity) will be such we'll all have some (why
stop at 1?)", or that it will take 20 years to catch on?
If the former, I can see thats possible.

If the latter, do you have one (or even several) since you have already
caught on, apparently?
--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, PeteC

(') said:

Sniper8052(L96A1) said:

By fixing compact wind turbines to the tops or sides of suitable lamp
standards a large amount of power could easily and cheaply be
generated. Such turbines are already used to provide alternative
domestic power supplies and are readily available.

Wind turbines have lots of moving parts, which therefore means
maintenance on a regular basis. The number required for a nationwide
rollout would require thousands of engineers. There will be lots of
constant noise, which will be heard by local households - and in the
early hours this will never be drowned out by cars.

Have you actually seen one of these things? Go down to your local marina.
Every second yacht will have one. They sit out there, in a marine
environment with lots of salt, get no maintenance, and keep on working
for years. Very quietly.

I dont think these things scale up well, isnt that the issue? The ones on
yachts must be producing a tiny amount of power, not enough to transmit
anywhere. Maybe that is another issue with Snipers idea, the low power would
be lost over more than a v small transmission distance. Agree on the noise
issue though, there is more noise in a marina from the clinking cables.

--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Tim
Woodall ([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think[1] these turbines are of the order of 3-6k for a 3kW turbine
(where in practice average power output is about 600W).

That price includes the tower and erection, I think. These towers are
already up.

The tower may not be suitable. It has to resist the additional torque
produced by the turbine.

Quoted message said:

Also, you would not need to use 3Kw units.

Certainly not. And, a 3kW turbine is a *big* turbine (for the top of a
lamp post). Our turbine, providing almost all our domestic electricity
is only 1kW and it has a span of 2m.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm also not sure what sort of forces they might put on the lampposts.
If they also need replacing then it's going to be extremely costly.

That's a fair point. However, if tubines were only installed as the
towers were being replaced anyway in planned maintenance, the extra cost
could be very small.

Ah, didn't read far enough down before commenting.

Colin

Sniper8052(L96A1) said:

Whilst driving on holiday and using the Motorway and A road systems it
occured to me that the same infrastructure which is being used to light
the roads could also be used to generate power.

By fixing compact wind turbines to the tops or sides of suitable lamp
standards a large amount of power could easily and cheaply be generated.
Such turbines are already used to provide alternative domestic power
supplies and are readily available.

The advantages that I see with this approach are:

1) The basic support is already available and in place.
2) The same wiring can be used to transmit the power into the national
grid as is used to power the light when in use.

Bear in mind that the circuitry to synchronize the generated power with
the mains and make sure it's safely switched off when necessary (for example
to repair the mains in a power cut) isn't trivial.
A generator installation that feeds into the mains is generally more
expensive than one that doesn't for those reasons.

(Having said that, I'm curious to see pricing information for
http://www.windsave.com/WS1000.htm and
http://www.renewabledevices.com/swift/index.htm)

Colin Blackburn said:

Quoted message said:

Also, you would not need to use 3Kw units.

Certainly not. And, a 3kW turbine is a *big* turbine (for the top of a
lamp post). Our turbine, providing almost all our domestic electricity
is only 1kW and it has a span of 2m.

Looking at some of the marine ones they would need a windspeed of about
10mph to store enough power to run just the lamp during the night and
they cost around £700-900 ea.
http://www.sailgb.com/p/wind_turbines_airx_marine/

As for noise, one that claims to be the quietest has a noise level of
75dB. We are currently looking at a replacement dishwasher and they run
about 50db. So not silent either although probably lost in the noise of
the wind in the rigging on a yacht.

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon

Tony Raven said:

Looking at some of the marine ones they would need a windspeed of about
10mph to store enough power to run just the lamp during the night and
they cost around £700-900 ea.
http://www.sailgb.com/p/wind_turbines_airx_marine/

We had an Air 403 before our current set up. It failed to survive this
winter's storms and lost a blade when the had a 100mph gust. We have yet
to find the missing blade!

Quoted message said:

As for noise, one that claims to be the quietest has a noise level of
75dB. We are currently looking at a replacement dishwasher and they run
about 50db. So not silent either although probably lost in the noise of
the wind in the rigging on a yacht.

The 403 was noisy in high wind as its blades twisted to protect itself.
It sounded like a flock of starlings. Our new turbine, a Whisper H40, is
bigger and quieter. It has a noise level rated above 75dB though I can't
remember the exact figure. However, when it is windy the noise is
essentially hidden in the wind noise. Also, the turbine was sited such
that the prevailing wind carries any noise past the has rather than
towards it---though obviously the wind does occasionally carry noise
towards the house. All in all noise isn't a problem for us and it is
dramatically less than having an 11kVA diesel generator running as we
would have before the turbine.

Colin

Alan Braggins said:

Sniper8052(L96A1) said:

Whilst driving on holiday and using the Motorway and A road systems it
occured to me that the same infrastructure which is being used to light
the roads could also be used to generate power.

By fixing compact wind turbines to the tops or sides of suitable lamp
standards a large amount of power could easily and cheaply be generated.
Such turbines are already used to provide alternative domestic power
supplies and are readily available.

The advantages that I see with this approach are:

1) The basic support is already available and in place.
2) The same wiring can be used to transmit the power into the national
grid as is used to power the light when in use.

Bear in mind that the circuitry to synchronize the generated power with
the mains and make sure it's safely switched off when necessary (for example
to repair the mains in a power cut) isn't trivial.
A generator installation that feeds into the mains is generally more
expensive than one that doesn't for those reasons.

(Having said that, I'm curious to see pricing information for
http://www.windsave.com/WS1000.htm and

Don't know

Quoted message said:

http://www.renewabledevices.com/swift/index.htm)

About 1500 quid, which should give a payback well within ten years.
(according to
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2004/05/5528/Q/Zoom/80). This
should include interaction with the mains.

At peak production, payback could be as quick as 3.5 years.

...d

in message <[email hidden]>, Tumbleweed

(') said:

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, PeteC

(') said:

Sniper8052(L96A1) wrote:
> By fixing compact wind turbines to the tops or sides of suitable
> lamp standards a large amount of power could easily and cheaply be
> generated. Such turbines are already used to provide alternative
> domestic power supplies and are readily available.

Wind turbines have lots of moving parts, which therefore means
maintenance on a regular basis. The number required for a nationwide
rollout would require thousands of engineers. There will be lots of
constant noise, which will be heard by local households - and in the
early hours this will never be drowned out by cars.

Have you actually seen one of these things? Go down to your local
marina. Every second yacht will have one. They sit out there, in a
marine environment with lots of salt, get no maintenance, and keep on
working for years. Very quietly.

I dont think these things scale up well, isnt that the issue? The ones
on yachts must be producing a tiny amount of power, not enough to
transmit anywhere. Maybe that is another issue with Snipers idea, the
low power would be lost over more than a v small transmission distance.
Agree on the noise issue though, there is more noise in a marina from
the clinking cables.

The ones on yachts produce enough power for all the domestic electrical
systems, the navigation systems, navigation lights, etc. Yes, it's less
than an average house uses, but it isn't 'tiny'.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; MS Windows: A thirty-two bit extension ... to a sixteen bit
;; patch to an eight bit operating system originally coded for a
;; four bit microprocessor and sold by a two-bit company that
;; can't stand one bit of competition -- anonymous