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B. Lafferty
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  1. guardian.co.uk0,5673,117108
    2,00.html Spain got the point By defaming the Spanish
    while Madrid weeps, the Bushites display a sneaking
    contempt for democracy

    Jonathan Freedland Wednesday March 17, 2004 The Guardian

    Maybe they think it's payback time. In 2001, many American
    conservatives were appalled by the reaction in some European
    quarters to 9/11, a reaction crudely summarised as "America
    had it coming". They insisted it was grossly insensitive to
    attack the United States and its foreign policy while Ground
    Zero still smouldered. They were right and I took their
    side, urging people at least to pause a while before adding
    greater hurt to an already traumatised nation.

    But look what's happening now. A matter of days after
    the event branded Europe's 9/11, and American
    conservatives - including some of the very people who
    were so outraged by the criticisms hurled at the US in
    September 2001 - have started whacking not just Spanish
    policy, but the Spanish people.

    Witness David Brooks in yesterday's New York Times, outraged
    that the Madrid bombings prompted Spanish voters to "throw
    out the old government and replace it with one whose
    policies are more to al-Qaida's liking. What is the Spanish
    word for appeasement?" Rightwing blog artist Andrew Sullivan
    also raided the 1930s lexicon for the same, exhausted word:
    "It seems clear to me that the trend in Europe is now either
    appeasement of terror or active alliance with it. It is hard
    to view the results in Spain as anything but a choice
    between Bush and al-Qaida. Al-Qaida won." Not to be outdone,
    former Bush speechwriter David Frum, the man who coined
    "axis of evil", sighed at the weakness of the Spanish:
    "People are not always strong. Sometimes they indulge false
    hopes that by lying low, truckling, appeasing, they can
    avoid danger and strife ... And this is what seems to have
    happened in Spain."

    Perhaps this is how the Bushites hope to avenge what they
    saw as European insensitivity two and half years ago, by
    defaming the Spanish even as Madrid still weeps. But this
    assault should not go unanswered if only because, if allowed
    to settle in the public mind, it will widen yet further the
    already yawning transatlantic gulf of misunderstanding.

    Put aside the imprecision (and worse) that comes with the
    abuse of the word "appeasement": the menace of al-Qaida is
    real and serious enough without making hyperbolic
    comparisons to the Third Reich. Focus instead on the two
    grave errors that underlie this latest argument from the
    right. One is a misunderstanding of democracy, the other is
    a failure to make crucial distinctions.

    The first mistake is the more surprising, for no word is
    invoked more often in support of the "war on terror" than
    democracy. Yet these insults hurled at the Spanish show a
    sneaking contempt for the idea. For surely the Spanish did
    nothing more on Sunday than exercise their democratic
    right to change governments. They elected the Socialist
    party; to suggest they voted for al-Qaida is a slur not
    only on the Spanish nation but on the democratic process
    itself, implying that when terrorists strike political
    choice must end.

    It comes from the same mentality that prompted Republicans
    in 2002 to run TV ads against the Democratic senator Max
    Cleland, who lost three limbs in the Vietnam war, placing
    his face alongside those of Saddam Hussein and Osama bin
    Laden. It is the same thinking that led one Republican
    congressman to quip recently that a vote in November for
    John Kerry will be a vote for Osama. It is a bid to reshape
    the political landscape, so that parties of the right stand
    on one side and all the rest are lumped in with al-Qaida.
    The tactic is McCarthyite, the natural extension of the
    bullying insistence that, in President Bush's own words,
    "You are either with us or you're with the terrorists". If
    that is the choice, then there is no choice: it is a mandate
    for a collection of one-party states.

    But this is not the heart of the matter. The right's greater
    error is its failure to distinguish between the war against
    al-Qaida and the war on Iraq. About 90% of the Spanish
    electorate were against the latter; there is no evidence
    that they were, or are, soft on the former. On the contrary,
    there have been two mass demonstrations of Spanish opinion
    in the past few days: let no one forget that 36 hours before
    the election, about 11 million Spaniards took to the streets
    to swear their revulsion at terrorism. It takes some cheek
    to accuse a nation like that of weakness and appeasement.

    The Spaniards showed they knew the difference between the
    struggle against al-Qaida and the conflict in Iraq. It is
    hardly a shock that this distinction is lost on the likes of
    Frum and company: the Bush administration worked tirelessly
    to conflate the two, constantly eliding Saddam and 9/11 even
    though the president himself has had to admit no evidence
    links the two.

    The Spanish electorate were not voting for a cave-in to al-
    Qaida. On the contrary, many of those who opposed the war in
    Iraq did so precisely because they feared it would distract
    from the more urgent war against Islamist fanaticism.
    (Witness the US military resources pulled off the hunt for
    Bin Laden in Afghanistan and diverted to Baghdad.) Nor was
    it appeasement to suggest that the US-led invasion of an oil-
    rich, Muslim country would make al-Qaida's recruitment
    mission that much easier.

    Of course, this is not to argue that if only the war had not
    happened then Bin Laden and his henchmen would have laid
    down their arms. Al-Qaida's leaders are murderous, guilty of
    the most wicked acts; nothing we can do will reach them. But
    that is not true of the many thousands, perhaps millions,
    drawn to the message of extreme Islamism; the people who
    would never plant bombs, but might cheer when they go off.
    These are the hearts and minds that have to be won over if
    the war on terror is ever to be won. To assert that the
    conflict over Iraq made that task harder is not a surrender;
    it is a statement of the obvious.

    It may be comforting, but this struggle cannot be won by
    painting the world in black and white, with America as the
    good guy and everyone else cast as terrorists or their
    allies. It will require nimble, subtle thinking - constantly
    making awkward but essential distinctions.

    So, yes, it is quite true that al-Qaida will be chillingly
    gratified by the Spanish result but, no, that does not mean
    that Spaniards voted for al-Qaida. Similarly, it is quite
    possible to be strongly opposed to the Iraq adventure and
    militantly in favour of the war against Bin Laden - indeed
    the two sentiments can be strongly linked. There is a
    difference, too, between appeasing men of violence and
    seeking to limit their appeal, just as the leaders of global
    terror must be separated from those who could become their
    followers. Islam is no monolith, nor is the west, and all
    the fine gradations within these categories matter
    enormously.

    The world has never looked more like a complex knot, and it
    will take precision and patience to untangle it. Wrenching
    away at it in fury will only make the problem harder - and
    our lives more dangerous.

    [email hidden]

  2. Brian get your head out of your ass. As late as earlier
    this same year they caught ETA terrorists driving a
    truckload of HE into Madrid supposedly to park in front of
    their Parliment.building and kill as many representatives
    as possible.

    Before the train explosions the Popular party were leading
    by a comfortable margin in the polls. In some cases the lead
    was 10%. The terrorist bombings were committed by Moroccans
    for the most part and there is a claimed Al Qaida connection
    however there is every likelihood that this was a job farmed
    out by ETA.

    In any case even if it was a separate act of terrorism by Al
    Qaida operatives you can expect that the results of this
    attack, the almost total capitulation of the Spanish people,
    wasn't lost on the ETA.

    Spain hasn't seen the last of terrorist attacks now for
    sure.

  3. On 03/17/2004 08:37 PM, in article
    [email hidden], "Tom Kunich"

    Quoted message said:

    The terrorist bombings were committed by Moroccans for the
    most part and there is a claimed Al Qaida connection
    however there is every likelihood that this was a job
    farmed out by ETA.

    Source?

    --
    Steven L. Sheffield stevens at veloworks dot com veloworks
    at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net bellum pax est libertas
    servitus est ignoratio vis est ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee
    sea aye tee why you ti ay aitch aitch tee tea pea colon [for
    word] slash [four ward] slash double-you double-yew double-
    ewe dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash

  4. BS politics do not belong in this newsgroup, turd. Post it
    over to
    Alt.BLafferty.hates.bush.and.American.Conservatives.group
    discussion Go get drug tested now, you are getting
    ""paranoide"" from all the shots.

    "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Su46-
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    guardian.co.uk0,5673,117108
    2,00.html Spain got the point By defaming the Spanish
    while Madrid weeps, the Bushites display a


    sneaking

    Quoted message said:

    contempt for democracy

    Jonathan Freedland Wednesday March 17, 2004 The Guardian

    Maybe they think it's payback time. In 2001, many American
    conservatives were appalled by the reaction in some
    European quarters to 9/11, a


    reaction

    Quoted message said:

    crudely summarised as "America had it coming". They
    insisted it was


    grossly

    Quoted message said:

    insensitive to attack the United States and its foreign
    policy while


    Ground

    Quoted message said:

    Zero still smouldered. They were right and I took their
    side, urging


    people

    Quoted message said:

    at least to pause a while before adding greater hurt to an
    already traumatised nation.

    But look what's happening now. A matter of days after the
    event branded Europe's 9/11, and American conservatives -
    including some of the very people who were so outraged by
    the criticisms hurled at the US in


    September

    Quoted message said:

    2001 - have started whacking not just Spanish policy, but
    the Spanish people.

    Witness David Brooks in yesterday's New York Times,
    outraged that the


    Madrid

    Quoted message said:

    bombings prompted Spanish voters to "throw out the old
    government and replace it with one whose policies are
    more to al-Qaida's liking. What is the Spanish word for
    appeasement?" Rightwing blog artist Andrew Sullivan also
    raided the 1930s lexicon for the same, exhausted word:
    "It seems


    clear

    Quoted message said:

    to me that the trend in Europe is now either appeasement
    of terror or


    active

    Quoted message said:

    alliance with it. It is hard to view the results in Spain
    as anything but


    a

    Quoted message said:

    choice between Bush and al-Qaida. Al-Qaida won." Not to be
    outdone, former Bush speechwriter David Frum, the man who
    coined "axis of evil", sighed at the weakness of the
    Spanish: "People are not always strong. Sometimes they
    indulge false hopes that by lying low, truckling,
    appeasing, they can


    avoid

    Quoted message said:

    danger and strife ... And this is what seems to have
    happened in Spain."

    Perhaps this is how the Bushites hope to avenge what they
    saw as European insensitivity two and half years ago, by
    defaming the Spanish even as


    Madrid

    Quoted message said:

    still weeps. But this assault should not go unanswered if
    only because, if allowed to settle in the public mind, it
    will widen yet further the


    already

    Quoted message said:

    yawning transatlantic gulf of misunderstanding.

    Put aside the imprecision (and worse) that comes with the
    abuse of the


    word

    Quoted message said:

    "appeasement": the menace of al-Qaida is real and serious
    enough without making hyperbolic comparisons to the Third
    Reich. Focus instead on the two grave errors that underlie
    this latest argument from the right. One is a
    misunderstanding of democracy, the other is a failure to
    make crucial distinctions.

    The first mistake is the more surprising, for no word is
    invoked more


    often

    Quoted message said:

    in support of the "war on terror" than democracy. Yet
    these insults hurled at the Spanish show a sneaking
    contempt for the idea. For surely the


    Spanish

    Quoted message said:

    did nothing more on Sunday than exercise their democratic
    right to change governments. They elected the Socialist
    party; to suggest they voted for al-Qaida is a slur not
    only on the Spanish nation but on the democratic process
    itself, implying that when terrorists strike political
    choice must end.

    It comes from the same mentality that prompted Republicans
    in 2002 to run


    TV

    Quoted message said:

    ads against the Democratic senator Max Cleland, who lost
    three limbs in


    the

    Quoted message said:

    Vietnam war, placing his face alongside those of Saddam
    Hussein and Osama bin Laden. It is the same thinking that
    led one Republican congressman to quip recently that a
    vote in November for John Kerry will be a vote for Osama.
    It is a bid to reshape the political landscape, so that
    parties of the right stand on one side and all the rest
    are lumped in with al-Qaida. The tactic is McCarthyite,
    the natural extension of the bullying


    insistence

    Quoted message said:

    that, in President Bush's own words, "You are either with
    us or you're


    with

    Quoted message said:

    the terrorists". If that is the choice, then there is
    no choice: it is a mandate for a collection of one-
    party states.

    But this is not the heart of the matter. The right's
    greater error is its failure to distinguish between the
    war against al-Qaida and the war on


    Iraq.

    Quoted message said:

    About 90% of the Spanish electorate were against the
    latter; there is no evidence that they were, or are, soft
    on the former. On the contrary,


    there

    Quoted message said:

    have been two mass demonstrations of Spanish opinion in
    the past few days: let no one forget that 36 hours before
    the election, about 11 million Spaniards took to the
    streets to swear their revulsion at terrorism. It takes
    some cheek to accuse a nation like that of weakness and
    appeasement.

    The Spaniards showed they knew the difference between the
    struggle against al-Qaida and the conflict in Iraq. It is
    hardly a shock that this distinction is lost on the likes
    of Frum and company: the Bush administration worked
    tirelessly to conflate the two, constantly eliding Saddam
    and 9/11 even though the president himself has had to
    admit no evidence links the two.

    The Spanish electorate were not voting for a cave-in to
    al-Qaida. On the contrary, many of those who opposed the
    war in Iraq did so precisely


    because

    Quoted message said:

    they feared it would distract from the more urgent war
    against Islamist fanaticism. (Witness the US military
    resources pulled off the hunt for Bin Laden in Afghanistan
    and diverted to Baghdad.) Nor was it appeasement to
    suggest that the US-led invasion of an oil-rich, Muslim
    country would make al-Qaida's recruitment mission that
    much easier.

    Of course, this is not to argue that if only the war had
    not happened then Bin Laden and his henchmen would have
    laid down their arms. Al-Qaida's leaders are murderous,
    guilty of the most wicked acts; nothing we can do will
    reach them. But that is not true of the many thousands,
    perhaps millions, drawn to the message of extreme
    Islamism; the people who would never plant bombs, but
    might cheer when they go off. These are the hearts and
    minds that have to be won over if the war on terror is
    ever to be won. To assert that the conflict over Iraq made
    that task harder is not a surrender; it is a statement of
    the obvious.

    It may be comforting, but this struggle cannot be won by
    painting the


    world

    Quoted message said:

    in black and white, with America as the good guy and
    everyone else cast as terrorists or their allies. It will
    require nimble, subtle thinking - constantly making
    awkward but essential distinctions.

    So, yes, it is quite true that al-Qaida will be chillingly
    gratified by


    the

    Quoted message said:

    Spanish result but, no, that does not mean that Spaniards
    voted for al-Qaida. Similarly, it is quite possible to be
    strongly opposed to the


    Iraq

    Quoted message said:

    adventure and militantly in favour of the war against Bin
    Laden - indeed


    the

    Quoted message said:

    two sentiments can be strongly linked. There is a
    difference, too, between appeasing men of violence
    and seeking to limit their appeal, just as the
    leaders of global terror must be separated from those
    who could become


    their

    Quoted message said:

    followers. Islam is no monolith, nor is the west, and all
    the fine gradations within these categories matter
    enormously.

    The world has never looked more like a complex knot, and
    it will take precision and patience to untangle it.
    Wrenching away at it in fury will only make the problem
    harder - and our lives more dangerous.

    [email hidden]

  5. "Steven L. Sheffield" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On 03/17/2004 08:37 PM, in article
    [email hidden],

    Tom Kunich said:

    The terrorist bombings were committed by Moroccans for
    the most part and there is a claimed Al Qaida connection
    however there is every likelihood that this was a job
    farmed out by ETA.

    Source?

    Try looking on the internet under ETA and Spain.

  6. Here-here

    "John Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
    berlin.de...

    Quoted message said:

    BS politics do not belong in this newsgroup, turd. Post it
    over to
    Alt.BLafferty.hates.bush.and.American.Conservatives.group
    discussion Go get drug tested now, you are getting
    ""paranoide"" from all the shots.

    "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Su-
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    guardian.co.uk0,5673,1171
    082,00.html Spain got the point By defaming the Spanish
    while Madrid weeps, the Bushites display a


    sneaking

    Quoted message said:

    contempt for democracy

    Jonathan Freedland Wednesday March 17, 2004 The Guardian

    Maybe they think it's payback time. In 2001, many
    American conservatives were appalled by the reaction in
    some European quarters to 9/11, a


    reaction

    Quoted message said:

    crudely summarised as "America had it coming". They
    insisted it was


    grossly

    Quoted message said:

    insensitive to attack the United States and its foreign
    policy while


    Ground

    Quoted message said:

    Zero still smouldered. They were right and I took their
    side, urging


    people

    Quoted message said:

    at least to pause a while before adding greater hurt to
    an already traumatised nation.

    But look what's happening now. A matter of days after
    the event branded Europe's 9/11, and American
    conservatives - including some of the very people who
    were so outraged by the criticisms hurled at the US in


    September

    Quoted message said:

    2001 - have started whacking not just Spanish policy,
    but the Spanish people.

    Witness David Brooks in yesterday's New York Times,
    outraged that the


    Madrid

    Quoted message said:

    bombings prompted Spanish voters to "throw out the old
    government and replace it with one whose policies are
    more to al-Qaida's liking. What


    is

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the Spanish word for appeasement?" Rightwing blog artist
    Andrew Sullivan also raided the 1930s lexicon for the
    same, exhausted word: "It seems


    clear

    Quoted message said:

    to me that the trend in Europe is now either appeasement
    of terror or


    active

    Quoted message said:

    alliance with it. It is hard to view the results in
    Spain as anything


    but

    Quoted message said:

    a

    Quoted message said:

    choice between Bush and al-Qaida. Al-Qaida won." Not to
    be outdone,


    former

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Bush speechwriter David Frum, the man who coined "axis
    of evil", sighed


    at

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the weakness of the Spanish: "People are not always
    strong. Sometimes


    they

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    indulge false hopes that by lying low, truckling,
    appeasing, they can


    avoid

    Quoted message said:

    danger and strife ... And this is what seems to have
    happened in Spain."

    Perhaps this is how the Bushites hope to avenge what
    they saw as


    European

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    insensitivity two and half years ago, by defaming the
    Spanish even as


    Madrid

    Quoted message said:

    still weeps. But this assault should not go unanswered
    if only because,


    if

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    allowed to settle in the public mind, it will widen yet
    further the


    already

    Quoted message said:

    yawning transatlantic gulf of misunderstanding.

    Put aside the imprecision (and worse) that comes with
    the abuse of the


    word

    Quoted message said:

    "appeasement": the menace of al-Qaida is real and
    serious enough without making hyperbolic comparisons to
    the Third Reich. Focus instead on the


    two

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    grave errors that underlie this latest argument from the
    right. One is a misunderstanding of democracy, the other
    is a failure to make crucial distinctions.

    The first mistake is the more surprising, for no word is
    invoked more


    often

    Quoted message said:

    in support of the "war on terror" than democracy. Yet
    these insults


    hurled

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    at the Spanish show a sneaking contempt for the idea.
    For surely the


    Spanish

    Quoted message said:

    did nothing more on Sunday than exercise their
    democratic right to


    change

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    governments. They elected the Socialist party; to
    suggest they voted for al-Qaida is a slur not only on
    the Spanish nation but on the democratic process itself,
    implying that when terrorists strike political choice


    must

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    end.

    It comes from the same mentality that prompted
    Republicans in 2002 to


    run

    Quoted message said:

    TV

    Quoted message said:

    ads against the Democratic senator Max Cleland, who lost
    three limbs in


    the

    Quoted message said:

    Vietnam war, placing his face alongside those of Saddam
    Hussein and


    Osama

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    bin Laden. It is the same thinking that led one
    Republican congressman


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    quip recently that a vote in November for John Kerry
    will be a vote for Osama. It is a bid to reshape the
    political landscape, so that parties


    of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the right stand on one side and all the rest are lumped
    in with


    al-Qaida.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The tactic is McCarthyite, the natural extension of the
    bullying


    insistence

    Quoted message said:

    that, in President Bush's own words, "You are either
    with us or you're


    with

    Quoted message said:

    the terrorists". If that is the choice, then there is no
    choice: it is a mandate for a collection of one-party
    states.

    But this is not the heart of the matter. The right's
    greater error is


    its

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    failure to distinguish between the war against al-Qaida
    and the war on


    Iraq.

    Quoted message said:

    About 90% of the Spanish electorate were against the
    latter; there is no evidence that they were, or are,
    soft on the former. On the contrary,


    there

    Quoted message said:

    have been two mass demonstrations of Spanish opinion in
    the past few


    days:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    let no one forget that 36 hours before the election,
    about 11 million Spaniards took to the streets to swear
    their revulsion at terrorism. It takes some cheek to
    accuse a nation like that of weakness and


    appeasement.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    The Spaniards showed they knew the difference between
    the struggle


    against

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    al-Qaida and the conflict in Iraq. It is hardly a shock
    that this distinction is lost on the likes of Frum and
    company: the Bush administration worked tirelessly to
    conflate the two, constantly eliding Saddam and 9/11
    even though the president himself has had to admit no
    evidence links the two.

    The Spanish electorate were not voting for a cave-in to
    al-Qaida. On the contrary, many of those who opposed the
    war in Iraq did so precisely


    because

    Quoted message said:

    they feared it would distract from the more urgent war
    against Islamist fanaticism. (Witness the US military
    resources pulled off the hunt for


    Bin

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Laden in Afghanistan and diverted to Baghdad.) Nor was
    it appeasement to suggest that the US-led invasion of an
    oil-rich, Muslim country would


    make

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    al-Qaida's recruitment mission that much easier.

    Of course, this is not to argue that if only the war had
    not happened


    then

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Bin Laden and his henchmen would have laid down their
    arms. Al-Qaida's leaders are murderous, guilty of the
    most wicked acts; nothing we can do will reach them. But
    that is not true of the many thousands, perhaps
    millions, drawn to the message of extreme Islamism; the
    people who would never plant bombs, but might cheer when
    they go off. These are the


    hearts

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and minds that have to be won over if the war on terror
    is ever to be


    won.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    To assert that the conflict over Iraq made that task
    harder is not a surrender; it is a statement of the
    obvious.

    It may be comforting, but this struggle cannot be won by
    painting the


    world

    Quoted message said:

    in black and white, with America as the good guy and
    everyone else cast


    as

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    terrorists or their allies. It will require nimble,
    subtle thinking - constantly making awkward but
    essential distinctions.

    So, yes, it is quite true that al-Qaida will be
    chillingly gratified by


    the

    Quoted message said:

    Spanish result but, no, that does not mean that
    Spaniards voted for al-Qaida. Similarly, it is quite
    possible to be strongly opposed to the


    Iraq

    Quoted message said:

    adventure and militantly in favour of the war against
    Bin Laden - indeed


    the

    Quoted message said:

    two sentiments can be strongly linked. There is a
    difference, too,


    between

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    appeasing men of violence and seeking to limit their
    appeal, just as the leaders of global terror must be
    separated from those who could become


    their

    Quoted message said:

    followers. Islam is no monolith, nor is the west, and
    all the fine gradations within these categories matter
    enormously.

    The world has never looked more like a complex knot, and
    it will take precision and patience to untangle it.
    Wrenching away at it in fury will only make the problem
    harder - and our lives more dangerous.

    [email hidden]


  7. matabala said:
    John Smith said:

    BS politics do not belong in this newsgroup, turd.

    Here-here

    What, they do?

  8. The reason the Popular party was leading in the polls (in
    spite of their support for the invasion of Iraq in contrast
    to 90% of Spain) was in part their tough position on ETA, a
    stance which the overwhelming majority of Spain supports.
    The PP was judged as being better than the Socialists at
    dealing with ETA via a hard line.

    The bomb and the govt's political manipulation by insistance
    on ETA as the source rekindled Spain's anger at having been
    drawn into attacking Iraq. The difference in the results of
    the election compared to the pre-election polls comes not
    from Spanish voters changing their minds hoping to appease
    Al-Qaeda, as from an influx of previously unpolled voters
    (many of whom demonstrated last weekend) who decided to vote
    at the last minute and were overwhelmingly anti-PP. The high
    voter turnout and exit polling confirms this.

    Tom Kunich said:

    Brian get your head out of your ass. As late as earlier
    this same year they caught ETA terrorists driving a
    truckload of HE into Madrid supposedly to park in front of
    their Parliment.building and kill as many representatives
    as possible.

    Before the train explosions the Popular party were leading
    by a comfortable margin in the polls. In some cases the
    lead was 10%. The terrorist bombings were committed by
    Moroccans for the most part and there is a claimed Al
    Qaida connection however there is every likelihood that
    this was a job farmed out by ETA.

    In any case even if it was a separate act of terrorism by
    Al Qaida operatives you can expect that the results of
    this attack, the almost total capitulation of the Spanish
    people, wasn't lost on the ETA.

    Spain hasn't seen the last of terrorist attacks now
    for sure.

  9. trg schreef:

    Quoted message said:

    The difference in the results of the election compared to
    the pre-election polls comes not from Spanish voters
    changing their minds hoping to appease Al-Qaeda,

    "appease" ??

    The slide is caused by people making the connection between
    the participation in Iraq (already against a huge majority
    in public opinion) and this attack. This aversion got
    amplified as on the forthnight of the election it became
    clear the government had been doing all it could to connect
    these bombs to ETA, for as long as possible. On Monday , my
    Spanish neighbours who watch TVE and don't have newspapers
    or -evidently- Spanish commercial TV, were still thinking
    ETA was responsible.

    There's nothing about appeasing al-qaeda in all this.

  10. Van Hoorebeeck Bart said:

    There's nothing about appeasing al-qaeda in all this.

    Even so, someone mentioned the term, and it stuck. Now
    several senators and even the speaker of the house are
    saying it. Search wn.com for Hastert.

  11. "Steven L. Sheffield" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On 03/17/2004 08:37 PM, in article
    [email hidden],

    Tom Kunich said:

    The terrorist bombings were committed by Moroccans for
    the most part and there is a claimed Al Qaida connection
    however there is every likelihood that this was a job
    farmed out by ETA.

    Source?

    Deep in the convoluted recesses of Tom's brain.

  12. Dearest, OT=Off Topic. Control your finger.

    Love,
    P.

    "John Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
    berlin.de...

    Quoted message said:

    BS politics do not belong in this newsgroup, turd. Post it
    over to
    Alt.BLafferty.hates.bush.and.American.Conservatives.group
    discussion Go get drug tested now, you are getting
    ""paranoide"" from all the shots.

    "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Su-
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    guardian.co.uk0,5673,1171
    082,00.html Spain got the point By defaming the Spanish
    while Madrid weeps, the Bushites display a


    sneaking

    Quoted message said:

    contempt for democracy

    Jonathan Freedland Wednesday March 17, 2004 The Guardian

    Maybe they think it's payback time. In 2001, many
    American conservatives were appalled by the reaction in
    some European quarters to 9/11, a


    reaction

    Quoted message said:

    crudely summarised as "America had it coming". They
    insisted it was


    grossly

    Quoted message said:

    insensitive to attack the United States and its foreign
    policy while


    Ground

    Quoted message said:

    Zero still smouldered. They were right and I took their
    side, urging


    people

    Quoted message said:

    at least to pause a while before adding greater hurt to
    an already traumatised nation.

    But look what's happening now. A matter of days after
    the event branded Europe's 9/11, and American
    conservatives - including some of the very people who
    were so outraged by the criticisms hurled at the US in


    September

    Quoted message said:

    2001 - have started whacking not just Spanish policy,
    but the Spanish people.

    Witness David Brooks in yesterday's New York Times,
    outraged that the


    Madrid

    Quoted message said:

    bombings prompted Spanish voters to "throw out the old
    government and replace it with one whose policies are
    more to al-Qaida's liking. What


    is

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the Spanish word for appeasement?" Rightwing blog artist
    Andrew Sullivan also raided the 1930s lexicon for the
    same, exhausted word: "It seems


    clear

    Quoted message said:

    to me that the trend in Europe is now either appeasement
    of terror or


    active

    Quoted message said:

    alliance with it. It is hard to view the results in
    Spain as anything


    but

    Quoted message said:

    a

    Quoted message said:

    choice between Bush and al-Qaida. Al-Qaida won." Not to
    be outdone,


    former

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Bush speechwriter David Frum, the man who coined "axis
    of evil", sighed


    at

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the weakness of the Spanish: "People are not always
    strong. Sometimes


    they

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    indulge false hopes that by lying low, truckling,
    appeasing, they can


    avoid

    Quoted message said:

    danger and strife ... And this is what seems to have
    happened in Spain."

    Perhaps this is how the Bushites hope to avenge what
    they saw as


    European

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    insensitivity two and half years ago, by defaming the
    Spanish even as


    Madrid

    Quoted message said:

    still weeps. But this assault should not go unanswered
    if only because,


    if

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    allowed to settle in the public mind, it will widen yet
    further the


    already

    Quoted message said:

    yawning transatlantic gulf of misunderstanding.

    Put aside the imprecision (and worse) that comes with
    the abuse of the


    word

    Quoted message said:

    "appeasement": the menace of al-Qaida is real and
    serious enough without making hyperbolic comparisons to
    the Third Reich. Focus instead on the


    two

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    grave errors that underlie this latest argument from the
    right. One is a misunderstanding of democracy, the other
    is a failure to make crucial distinctions.

    The first mistake is the more surprising, for no word is
    invoked more


    often

    Quoted message said:

    in support of the "war on terror" than democracy. Yet
    these insults


    hurled

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    at the Spanish show a sneaking contempt for the idea.
    For surely the


    Spanish

    Quoted message said:

    did nothing more on Sunday than exercise their
    democratic right to


    change

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    governments. They elected the Socialist party; to
    suggest they voted for al-Qaida is a slur not only on
    the Spanish nation but on the democratic process itself,
    implying that when terrorists strike political choice


    must

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    end.

    It comes from the same mentality that prompted
    Republicans in 2002 to


    run

    Quoted message said:

    TV

    Quoted message said:

    ads against the Democratic senator Max Cleland, who lost
    three limbs in


    the

    Quoted message said:

    Vietnam war, placing his face alongside those of Saddam
    Hussein and


    Osama

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    bin Laden. It is the same thinking that led one
    Republican congressman


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    quip recently that a vote in November for John Kerry
    will be a vote for Osama. It is a bid to reshape the
    political landscape, so that parties


    of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the right stand on one side and all the rest are lumped
    in with


    al-Qaida.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The tactic is McCarthyite, the natural extension of the
    bullying


    insistence

    Quoted message said:

    that, in President Bush's own words, "You are either
    with us or you're


    with

    Quoted message said:

    the terrorists". If that is the choice, then there is no
    choice: it is a mandate for a collection of one-party
    states.

    But this is not the heart of the matter. The right's
    greater error is


    its

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    failure to distinguish between the war against al-Qaida
    and the war on


    Iraq.

    Quoted message said:

    About 90% of the Spanish electorate were against the
    latter; there is no evidence that they were, or are,
    soft on the former. On the contrary,


    there

    Quoted message said:

    have been two mass demonstrations of Spanish opinion in
    the past few


    days:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    let no one forget that 36 hours before the election,
    about 11 million Spaniards took to the streets to swear
    their revulsion at terrorism. It takes some cheek to
    accuse a nation like that of weakness and


    appeasement.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    The Spaniards showed they knew the difference between
    the struggle


    against

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    al-Qaida and the conflict in Iraq. It is hardly a shock
    that this distinction is lost on the likes of Frum and
    company: the Bush administration worked tirelessly to
    conflate the two, constantly eliding Saddam and 9/11
    even though the president himself has had to admit no
    evidence links the two.

    The Spanish electorate were not voting for a cave-in to
    al-Qaida. On the contrary, many of those who opposed the
    war in Iraq did so precisely


    because

    Quoted message said:

    they feared it would distract from the more urgent war
    against Islamist fanaticism. (Witness the US military
    resources pulled off the hunt for


    Bin

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Laden in Afghanistan and diverted to Baghdad.) Nor was
    it appeasement to suggest that the US-led invasion of an
    oil-rich, Muslim country would


    make

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    al-Qaida's recruitment mission that much easier.

    Of course, this is not to argue that if only the war had
    not happened


    then

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Bin Laden and his henchmen would have laid down their
    arms. Al-Qaida's leaders are murderous, guilty of the
    most wicked acts; nothing we can do will reach them. But
    that is not true of the many thousands, perhaps
    millions, drawn to the message of extreme Islamism; the
    people who would never plant bombs, but might cheer when
    they go off. These are the


    hearts

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and minds that have to be won over if the war on terror
    is ever to be


    won.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    To assert that the conflict over Iraq made that task
    harder is not a surrender; it is a statement of the
    obvious.

    It may be comforting, but this struggle cannot be won by
    painting the


    world

    Quoted message said:

    in black and white, with America as the good guy and
    everyone else cast


    as

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    terrorists or their allies. It will require nimble,
    subtle thinking - constantly making awkward but
    essential distinctions.

    So, yes, it is quite true that al-Qaida will be
    chillingly gratified by


    the

    Quoted message said:

    Spanish result but, no, that does not mean that
    Spaniards voted for al-Qaida. Similarly, it is quite
    possible to be strongly opposed to the


    Iraq

    Quoted message said:

    adventure and militantly in favour of the war against
    Bin Laden - indeed


    the

    Quoted message said:

    two sentiments can be strongly linked. There is a
    difference, too,


    between

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    appeasing men of violence and seeking to limit their
    appeal, just as the leaders of global terror must be
    separated from those who could become


    their

    Quoted message said:

    followers. Islam is no monolith, nor is the west, and
    all the fine gradations within these categories matter
    enormously.

    The world has never looked more like a complex knot, and
    it will take precision and patience to untangle it.
    Wrenching away at it in fury will only make the problem
    harder - and our lives more dangerous.

    [email hidden]


  13. B. Lafferty said:

    guardian.co.uk0,5673,117108
    2,00.html Spain got the point

    That's how The Guardian sees it. Here's what the terrorists
    have to say:

    "Because of this decision, the leadership has decided to
    stop all operations within the Spanish territories... until
    we know the intentions of the new government that has
    promised to withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq," the
    statement said.

    "And we repeat this to all the brigades present in European
    lands: Stop all operations."

    abs-abs-
    cbnnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?section=World&OID=47190

    --
    Scott Johnson / scottjohnson at kc dot rr dot com

  14. "Ewoud Dronkert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:36:56 +0100, Van Hoorebeeck

    Bart said:

    There's nothing about appeasing al-qaeda in all this.

    Even so, someone mentioned the term, and it stuck. Now
    several senators and even the speaker of the house are
    saying it. Search wn.com for Hastert.

    It's the latest Bush/Republican spin. Paint all opposition
    as present day Chamberlains. Europe and Annan are going to
    fall for it, even if most in the US do. guardian-guardian-
    .co.uk/spain/article/0,2763,1171973,00.html

  15. Make that "not" fall for it as to Europe and Annan

    "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:P5h6-
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Ewoud Dronkert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:36:56 +0100, Van Hoorebeeck Bart

    Quoted message said:

    There's nothing about appeasing al-qaeda in all this.

    Even so, someone mentioned the term, and it stuck. Now
    several senators and even the speaker of the house are
    saying it. Search wn.com for Hastert.

    It's the latest Bush/Republican spin. Paint all opposition
    as present day Chamberlains. Europe and Annan are going to
    fall for it, even if most in the US do. guardi-guardi-
    an.co.uk/spain/article/0,2763,1171973,00.html

  16. Top Sirloin said:
    B. Lafferty said:

    guardian.co.uk0,5673,11710
    82,00.html Spain got the point

    That's how The Guardian sees it. Here's what the
    terrorists have to say:

    "Because of this decision, the leadership has decided to
    stop all operations within the Spanish territories...
    until we know the intentions of the new government that
    has promised to withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq," the
    statement said.

    "And we repeat this to all the brigades present in
    European lands: Stop all operations."

    abs-abs-
    cbnnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?section=World&OID=47190

    The same story says-

    "The statement said it supported President Bush in his re-
    election campaign, and would prefer him to win in November
    rather than the Democratic candidate John Kerry, as it was
    not possible to find a leader "more foolish than you (Bush),
    who deals with matters by force rather than with wisdom."

    In comments addressed to Bush, the group said:

    "Kerry will kill our nation while it sleeps because he and
    the Democrats have the cunning to embellish blasphemy and
    present it to the Arab and Muslim nation as civilization."

    "Because of this we desire you (Bush) to be elected."

    Thta's enough to make me vote for Kerry. Even the terrorists
    realize that he is more danger to them and their cause than
    GWB. Or maybe I misinterpreted it? Maybe the terrorists are
    supporting GWB because of his close ties to the Bin Ladens?

  17. Van Hoorebeeck Bart said:

    trg schreef:

    Quoted message said:

    The difference in the results of the election compared
    to the pre-election polls comes not from Spanish voters
    changing their minds hoping to appease Al-Qaeda,

    "appease" ??

    The slide is caused by people making the connection
    between the participation in Iraq (already against a huge
    majority in public opinion) and this attack. This aversion
    got amplified as on the forthnight of the election it
    became clear the government had been doing all it could to
    connect these bombs to ETA, for as long as possible. On
    Monday , my Spanish neighbours who watch TVE and don't
    have newspapers or -evidently- Spanish commercial TV, were
    still thinking ETA was responsible.

    There's nothing about appeasing al-qaeda in all this.

    My point exactly. I wrote "NOT from ... voters ...
    hoping to appease Al-Qaeda. It's the Bushies who are
    talking about appeasement. That word is so loaded in
    connotations that they drag it and fling it at whover
    doesn't march in lockstep (another loaded word) with
    their views on global politics.

  18. trg said:

    Or maybe I misinterpreted it? Maybe the terrorists are
    supporting GWB because of his close ties to the Bin Ladens?

    Having spent a few years reading similar tripe from the
    RenMinErhBao when China was vitriolic anti-whoever is in
    charge of the U.S. today, this is a pretty poor reason for
    making any decision. They will write the same about Kerry if
    he assumes power. Better formulate all of your voting
    decisions based solely on what you read in rbr.

    The rbr body politic seems to be based on the fundamental
    concept that the side with which you agree has pure motives
    and works from a good heart and the other side is rife with
    conspirators and is deliberately spinning misleading
    aspersions on innocent people, rather than simply voicing a
    different, but perhaps honestly held, opinion.

    (OTOH, if you were to hang a poster with a picture of Kerry
    and Bush over your kid's bed, you'd be up for child cruelty
    charges - these are two scarey faces.)

    Its what I call the 'Are you for or against Lance Armstrong'
    political approach, as it seems identical with those LA
    threads. Its very similar to the Hilary Clinton 'right wing
    conspirators are responsible for everything wrong' theories.

    But the LA ads are stranger than anything in the political
    arena, so I'm inclined to believe that there really is a
    conspiracy against Lance.

    Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
    two wheels...

  19. On 03/17/2004 09:17 PM, in article
    [email hidden], "Tom Kunich"

    Quoted message said:

    "Steven L. Sheffield" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On 03/17/2004 08:37 PM, in article
    [email hidden],

    Tom Kunich said:

    The terrorist bombings were committed by Moroccans for
    the most part and there is a claimed Al Qaida connection
    however there is every likelihood that this was a job
    farmed out by ETA.

    Source?

    Try looking on the internet under ETA and Spain.

    I mean a specific, credible souce stating that ETA farmed
    out a terrorist attack to Al-Qaeda.

    --
    Steven L. Sheffield stevens at veloworks dot com veloworks
    at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net bellum pax est libertas
    servitus est ignoratio vis est ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee
    sea aye tee why you ti ay aitch aitch tee tea pea colon [for
    word] slash [four ward] slash double-you double-yew double-
    ewe dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash

  20. Steven L. Sheffield said:

    I mean a specific, credible souce stating that ETA farmed
    out a terrorist attack to Al-Qaeda.

    We have copies of the work permits...

    Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
    two wheels...

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