OT: Allen Wrench Socket set (money laundering?)

Art M said:

I was looking for allen heads that I could use with a torque wrench so I
thought I'd look on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4535577497&category=43993&sspagename=WDVW

or http://tinyurl.com/6nrb4

Now the starting price on this USED ten piece set was $30 and it's up to
$66. Tack on another $8 for shipping. I saw one like this in a store today
for $20. Am I missing something?

--Art

A lot of what you're paying for in this situation is the Snap-On brand name.
Yes, they are good tools, but IMHO, over priced. ...FWIW, I do own some
Snap-On tools and they work well, last, and even look good!

As with most things, you get what you pay for. Cheap socket head (Allen)
wrenches will be made in Pakistan/India/Ukraine/China... and probably be
made of inferior steel or heat treated improperly, or even made to incorrect
sizes. With any of those situations, you'll ruin the wrench and bolt at
best, and could possibly do lots of damage to you or the thing you're
working on. With the Allen wrenches in a 3/8 drive, the $20.00 set may not
be easily replaceable when they wear out.

I have a set made by Armstrong Tools. Good solid stuff. Better than
Craftsman, cheaper than Snap-On or Mac. Replaceable tips and made properly.
--
Skuke
Reverse the domain name to send email

Art M said:

I was looking for allen heads that I could use with a torque wrench so I
thought I'd look on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4535577497&category=43993&sspagename=WDVW

or http://tinyurl.com/6nrb4

Now the starting price on this USED ten piece set was $30 and it's up to
$66. Tack on another $8 for shipping. I saw one like this in a store today
for $20. Am I missing something?

yes, the magic words "snap-on".

Quoted message said:

--Art

Art M said:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4535577497&category=43993&sspagename=WDVW

or http://tinyurl.com/6nrb4

Now the starting price on this USED ten piece set was $30
and it's up to $66. Tack on another $8 for shipping. I saw
one like this in a store today for $20. Am I missing something?

Yes: a rationale behind the question about "money laundering". How could
anyone possibly launder money with a sixty-six dollar auction on eBay??

--
"Bicycling is a healthy and manly pursuit with much
to recommend it, and, unlike other foolish crazes,
it has not died out." -- The Daily Telegraph (1877)

jim beam said:

Art M said:

I was looking for allen heads that I could use with a torque wrench so
I thought I'd look on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4535577497&category=43993&sspagename=WDVW

or http://tinyurl.com/6nrb4

Now the starting price on this USED ten piece set was $30 and it's up
to $66. Tack on another $8 for shipping. I saw one like this in a
store today for $20. Am I missing something?

yes, the magic words "snap-on".

Sheldon Brown makes good use of a particular Snap-On tool:
<http://sheldonbrown.org/snaponhat.html>.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth (Downstate Illinois, North of Forgottonia)

Tom Sherman said:

jim beam said:

Art M said:

I was looking for allen heads that I could use with a torque wrench
so I thought I'd look on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4535577497&category=43993&sspagename=WDVW

or http://tinyurl.com/6nrb4

Now the starting price on this USED ten piece set was $30 and it's up
to $66. Tack on another $8 for shipping. I saw one like this in a
store today for $20. Am I missing something?

yes, the magic words "snap-on".

Sheldon Brown makes good use of a particular Snap-On tool:
<http://sheldonbrown.org/snaponhat.html>.

funny

LioNiNoiL_a t_Y a h 0 0_d 0 t_c 0 m said:

How could anyone possibly launder money with a sixty-six dollar auction on

eBay??

By doing a /really/ small load?

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 01:13:13 -0500, "Art M"

may have said:

Now the starting price on this USED ten piece set was $30 and it's up to
$66. Tack on another $8 for shipping. I saw one like this in a store today
for $20. Am I missing something?

Key phrase: Snap-On Tools

Snap-on charges up to 20 times as much as some competitors who are
selling products of good quality for a tool that does the same job.
In many cases (but *not* all) the Snap-On tool will last longer and/or
work better than the one from the competitor, but the quality/feature
gap between Snap-On and the competition continues to diminish. At one
time, most professional mechanics considered it worthwhile to pay the
price for Snap-On stuff for a variety of reasons. I have some
myself...but I've also got a lot of other brands as well, and I seldom
buy something from Snap-On anymore.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Art M said:

Now the starting price on this USED ten piece set was $30 and it's up to
$66. Tack on another $8 for shipping. I saw one like this in a store today
for $20. Am I missing something?

I got one recently at Harbor Freight and it was $9.99. I used a
neighbor's fancy model to find out if the cheapo was accurate. For 40
ft lbs, they were almost identical.

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:22:56 GMT, Paul Kopit

may have said:

Art M said:

Now the starting price on this USED ten piece set was $30 and it's up to
$66. Tack on another $8 for shipping. I saw one like this in a store today
for $20. Am I missing something?

I got one recently at Harbor Freight and it was $9.99. I used a
neighbor's fancy model to find out if the cheapo was accurate. For 40
ft lbs, they were almost identical.

Obviously, you're speaking of a torque wrench; the OP's comments were
about a set of allen sockets.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Art M said:

I was looking for allen heads that I could use with a torque wrench so I
thought I'd look on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4535577497&category=43993&sspagename=WDVW
or http://tinyurl.com/6nrb4
Now the starting price on this USED ten piece set was $30 and it's up to
$66. Tack on another $8 for shipping. I saw one like this in a store today
for $20. Am I missing something?

As a frequent customer of SnapOn products( 1-800-TOOLS-4U)
for many years, I think their high price is very justified.
But then again we wear out lesser tools in as little as one
season. For home use a no-name hardware store set from India
or China may well be appropriate. They are just not the same
thing at all.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Werehatrack said:

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 01:13:13 -0500, "Art M"

may have said:

Now the starting price on this USED ten piece set was $30 and it's up to
$66. Tack on another $8 for shipping. I saw one like this in a store today
for $20. Am I missing something?

Key phrase: Snap-On Tools

Snap-on charges up to 20 times as much as some competitors who are
selling products of good quality for a tool that does the same job.
In many cases (but *not* all) the Snap-On tool will last longer and/or
work better than the one from the competitor, but the quality/feature
gap between Snap-On and the competition continues to diminish. At one
time, most professional mechanics considered it worthwhile to pay the
price for Snap-On stuff for a variety of reasons. I have some
myself...but I've also got a lot of other brands as well, and I seldom
buy something from Snap-On anymore.

the absolutely most compelling items in the snap-on catalog are their
3/8" ratchets. others work. snap-on excel. noone else comes close.

Werehatrack said:

Snap-on charges up to 20 times as much as some competitors who are
selling products of good quality for a tool that does the same job.
In many cases (but *not* all) the Snap-On tool will last longer and/or
work better than the one from the competitor, but the quality/feature
gap between Snap-On and the competition continues to diminish. At one
time, most professional mechanics considered it worthwhile to pay the
price for Snap-On stuff for a variety of reasons. I have some
myself...but I've also got a lot of other brands as well, and I seldom
buy something from Snap-On anymore.

One of the main reasons many professionals DO buy Snap-On is the
customer service that goes with the tools. One mechanic put it to me
this way, "I can buy the Snap-On for $5 more. If it breaks, they
bring me a new one. If a Craftsman breaks, I got to spend 45 minutes
that I don't get paid for going to Sears to get a new one, if Sears
decides to honor the warranty. If I buy anything else and it breaks,
I got to spend 30-45 minutes AND I have to pay for a new tool. Since
I get paid by the hour, it's worth it to me to buy Snap-On."

(Note I don't own any Snap-On tools, but I'd like to!)

Pat

Email address works as is.

Patrick Lamb said:

Werehatrack said:

Snap-on charges up to 20 times as much as some competitors who are
selling products of good quality for a tool that does the same job.
In many cases (but *not* all) the Snap-On tool will last longer and/or
work better than the one from the competitor, but the quality/feature
gap between Snap-On and the competition continues to diminish. At one
time, most professional mechanics considered it worthwhile to pay the
price for Snap-On stuff for a variety of reasons. I have some
myself...but I've also got a lot of other brands as well, and I seldom
buy something from Snap-On anymore.

One of the main reasons many professionals DO buy Snap-On is the
customer service that goes with the tools. One mechanic put it to me
this way, "I can buy the Snap-On for $5 more. If it breaks, they
bring me a new one. If a Craftsman breaks, I got to spend 45 minutes
that I don't get paid for going to Sears to get a new one, if Sears
decides to honor the warranty. If I buy anything else and it breaks,
I got to spend 30-45 minutes AND I have to pay for a new tool. Since
I get paid by the hour, it's worth it to me to buy Snap-On."

(Note I don't own any Snap-On tools, but I'd like to!)

I owned a 1/4" drive dial torque wrench. Actually, I inherited it from my
father and it was about 15 years old. Used minimally, cosmetically in great
condition, but broken. The dial stuck and gave no reading. I politely
asked the Snap-On guy to repair or replace it and he took it for a week and
returned saying that the torque wrench was obsolete and they no longer made
that model so it couldn't be repaired or replaced. I asked about the newest
version and about getting a discount on a new one. He flatly refused. He
told me that not all tools have a "lifetime" warranty and my wrench was one
of them! I never bought another Snap-On tool.

I'll admit that I was not his best customer, but he certainly knew me and I
had made purchases from him in the past. We had a good relationship (or so
I thought) and I didn't owe him any money or "screw" him in the past. I
felt he needed to protect his own interest (fair enough) but was taking
advantage of some obscure company policy to avoid replacing my wrench. BTW,
he didn't know that I was not the original purchaser of the wrench.

I do own other Snap-On tools and am very happy with their performance.
--
Skuke
Reverse the domain name to send email

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 06:34:28 GMT, skuke <[email hidden]> may have

Quoted message said:

I owned a 1/4" drive dial torque wrench. Actually, I inherited it from my
father and it was about 15 years old.

Chrome with a welded/riveted body, or the old aluminum type with the
top plate held on by screws? The latter can be opened up and cleaned,
and that's often all that's needed to get one back to being
functional. The aluminum type was obsolete and no longer serviced by
Snap-On in the 1970s if I recall correctly; I still have one. The
replacement variety of that day was the riveted-together chrome one,
and they were subject to self-destructing if they were used
injudiciously; torque a fastener past the range of the dial, and the
wrench was junk. When we found out about that feature, we stopped
buying Snap-On dial-type torque wrenches for as long as I had the
shop.

Quoted message said:

Used minimally, cosmetically in great
condition, but broken. The dial stuck and gave no reading. I politely
asked the Snap-On guy to repair or replace it and he took it for a week and
returned saying that the torque wrench was obsolete and they no longer made
that model so it couldn't be repaired or replaced. I asked about the newest
version and about getting a discount on a new one. He flatly refused.

This situation with their dial-type torque wrenches is not new, as
noted above.

Quoted message said:

I'll admit that I was not his best customer, but he certainly knew me and I
had made purchases from him in the past. We had a good relationship (or so
I thought) and I didn't owe him any money or "screw" him in the past. I
felt he needed to protect his own interest (fair enough) but was taking
advantage of some obscure company policy to avoid replacing my wrench. BTW,
he didn't know that I was not the original purchaser of the wrench.

It wasn't him that made the policy. It was Snap-On itself. I looked
into the economics of running one of those trucks in the early '80s,
and the markup that the tool guys got was just not acceptable given
the hassles and expense load involved. I'm not surprised that he
wouldn't eat the cost of the replacement...and that's what he'd have
been doing.

Quoted message said:

I do own other Snap-On tools and am very happy with their performance.

I have tools from many suppliers including Snap-On, and lately I have
been noticing that the price of Snap-On's stuff has gone well beyond
merely exorbitant and well into the realm of ludicrous. As for the
warranty, I long ago learned that the only real way to ensure that no
job would be interrupted by a broken tool was to have two of most
everything. All brands of tools break. Snap-On sockets have such
thin walls that in my experience, they fail more often than many of
their competitors; I have three to trade in at the moment, and have
broken none of any other decent brand in well over a year. On the
other hand, there are certain applications in which those thin walls
will allow a Snap-On socket to get on to a fastener where no other
brand can. If it were not for that fact, though, I'd have stopped
buying Snap-On sockets years ago. I've broken too many.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

"Art M" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:ZpP_d.65181$7z6.17046@lakeread04:

Quoted message said:

I was looking for allen heads that I could use with a torque wrench so
I thought I'd look on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4535
577497&category=43993&sspagename=WDVW

or http://tinyurl.com/6nrb4

Now the starting price on this USED ten piece set was $30 and it's up
to $66. Tack on another $8 for shipping. I saw one like this in a
store today for $20. Am I missing something?

--Art

Go buy a craftsman set, and buy the sizes most common on a bike, probably
4mm - 6mm, or whatever you use the most. Craftsman has a pretty good
torque wrench too (about $50 I think).

A neighbor found a box of craftsman tools in a yard sale literally rusted
together in a big chunk, and bought them for a dollar. He took them to
Sears, and they replaced them all with new ones. That's a "no [censored]"
warranty there.

jim beam said:

Werehatrack said:

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 01:13:13 -0500, "Art M"

may have said:

Now the starting price on this USED ten piece set was $30 and it's up to
$66. Tack on another $8 for shipping. I saw one like this in a store today
for $20. Am I missing something?

Key phrase: Snap-On Tools

Snap-on charges up to 20 times as much as some competitors who are
selling products of good quality for a tool that does the same job.
In many cases (but *not* all) the Snap-On tool will last longer and/or
work better than the one from the competitor, but the quality/feature
gap between Snap-On and the competition continues to diminish. At one
time, most professional mechanics considered it worthwhile to pay the
price for Snap-On stuff for a variety of reasons. I have some
myself...but I've also got a lot of other brands as well, and I seldom
buy something from Snap-On anymore.

the absolutely most compelling items in the snap-on catalog are their
3/8" ratchets. others work. snap-on excel. noone else comes close.

I've had a 3/8" Snap-On ratchet for nearly 20 years and it *is* nice. Didn't
buy it; a mechanic at the dealership left it on top of my car's engine. The
3/8" ratchets I did buy are two Craftsmans. They are more handy in use than the
Snap-On because of their lever control; the Snap-On has a sort of knob for this
function (requiring a 2nd hand to operate). But when I have to really lean on a
ratchet handle, I grab the Snap-On because of its comfortable round handle and
deep knurling (read "NO slip"😉.

Michael said:

jim beam said:

Werehatrack said:

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 01:13:13 -0500, "Art M"
<[email hidden]> may have said:

>Now the starting price on this USED ten piece set was $30 and it's up to
>$66. Tack on another $8 for shipping. I saw one like this in a store today
>for $20. Am I missing something?

Key phrase: Snap-On Tools

Snap-on charges up to 20 times as much as some competitors who are
selling products of good quality for a tool that does the same job.
In many cases (but *not* all) the Snap-On tool will last longer and/or
work better than the one from the competitor, but the quality/feature
gap between Snap-On and the competition continues to diminish. At one
time, most professional mechanics considered it worthwhile to pay the
price for Snap-On stuff for a variety of reasons. I have some
myself...but I've also got a lot of other brands as well, and I seldom
buy something from Snap-On anymore.

the absolutely most compelling items in the snap-on catalog are their
3/8" ratchets. others work. snap-on excel. noone else comes close.

I've had a 3/8" Snap-On ratchet for nearly 20 years and it *is* nice. Didn't
buy it; a mechanic at the dealership left it on top of my car's engine. The
3/8" ratchets I did buy are two Craftsmans. They are more handy in use than the
Snap-On because of their lever control; the Snap-On has a sort of knob for this
function (requiring a 2nd hand to operate).

modern ones now have a lever - you can change one-handed.

Quoted message said:

But when I have to really lean on a
ratchet handle, I grab the Snap-On because of its comfortable round handle and
deep knurling (read "NO slip"😉.

agreed! a consistent problem i have with a craftsman is that if it
slips, the ratchet springs & reverses direction! i've skinned knuckles
more than once because of that. and the ratchet lever is plastic!!!
you don't /need/ a metal lever for the switching force, but you
definitely do to withstand potential abuse. i keep a craftsman because
they're a cheap useful backup & their guarantee, as noted elsewhere, is
great, but for serious stuff, snap-on for me!

Patrick Lamb said:

Werehatrack said:

Snap-on charges up to 20 times as much as some competitors who are
selling products of good quality for a tool that does the same job.
In many cases (but *not* all) the Snap-On tool will last longer and/or
work better than the one from the competitor, but the quality/feature
gap between Snap-On and the competition continues to diminish. At one
time, most professional mechanics considered it worthwhile to pay the
price for Snap-On stuff for a variety of reasons. I have some
myself...but I've also got a lot of other brands as well, and I seldom
buy something from Snap-On anymore.

One of the main reasons many professionals DO buy Snap-On is the
customer service that goes with the tools. One mechanic put it to me
this way, "I can buy the Snap-On for $5 more. If it breaks, they
bring me a new one. If a Craftsman breaks, I got to spend 45 minutes
that I don't get paid for going to Sears to get a new one, if Sears
decides to honor the warranty. If I buy anything else and it breaks,
I got to spend 30-45 minutes AND I have to pay for a new tool. Since
I get paid by the hour, it's worth it to me to buy Snap-On."

A couple thoughts...

First, if you DO break a Snap-On tool, you'll have to wait for the
vendor to come around to get it replaced. With Sears at least you
have the option of popping over to get it replaced. In my case, the
round trip and exchange would take about 20-25 minutes.

Second, I have seen people bring in some OBVIOUSLY abused Craftsman
tools to Sears for exchange. In once case a guy handed the cashier a
large screwdriver that half the handle was missing, and the other half
showed plenty of evidence that the thing had been used as a chisel.
No problem - instant exchange. I've certainly never gotten any hassle
about exchanging anything that broke (not that it's happened very
much). To me, I have to weigh the cost vs. the incremental quality
vs. the amount of time I'm likely to use the tool before I die of old
age. That formula seems to stop well short of Snap-On for most tools.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:09:55 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>

may have said:

... To me, I have to weigh the cost vs. the incremental quality
vs. the amount of time I'm likely to use the tool before I die of old
age. That formula seems to stop well short of Snap-On for most tools.

Same here, though I try to hedge my bets where I can, since one never
knows when the old skills may have to be put to use in order to pay
the bills. In looking at the products available, though, what
immediately strikes me is that a lot of formerly so-so brands have
improved quite a bit in the past 30 years, while Snap-On has merely
become more expensive. In another part of this thread, someone
mentioned a torque wrench that Snap-On declined to warranty; in
looking at their site, I see that the current version of their 3/8"
drive 600-in-lb dial-type unit is over $240, while I can buy what
appears to be an identical wrench (probably made by the same specialty
manufacturer) for well under half that much. It's not hard to do the
math on that. I have a few recent-production 3/8" drive sockets from
Snap-On, and one of them is among the items that I'm going to return
to their nearby warehouse for exchange next week. What's particularly
telling about one of them is that it broke while attempting to remove
a nut which was subsequently broken loose using a Kobalt socket from
the nearby Lowe's store. Kobalt is owned by Snap-On, but the line is
sold through consumer outlets at retail-market prices. (They're
reportedly produced in the plant which previously made Williams tools,
a brand which was bought out by Snap-On a while back.)

I still hold on to my Snap-On stuff, and on certain occasions I'll buy
some, for those rare applications where nothing else works as
well...but even in what I think of as their flagship line (ratchets),
the competition is starting to offer alternatives which are making the
price extremely hard to justify...and in one area, the 1/4" dirve
stuff, my preference for most items shifted to Hazet a long time ago.
I have a 1/4" Hazet set that has done yeoman duty in dismantling and
reassembling several BMWs and numerous other projects over the years,
and it just works better than anything else I've used. It's not
cheap, but still half the price of Snap-On, and has a much nicer case.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.