Oscar winning performance?

Jim Martin <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Do you guys really believe that every member of Discovery, except
Lance, got dropped today?

Did you watch it, because that was exactly what happened. That makes more
sense to believe it wasn't part of some brilliant plan than thinking they
intentionally left him isolated to respond to attacks by everyone else.

Ya know, I think it was before the stage Lance mentioned that there were
a lot of tired guys in the peloton. Maybe he was talking about his own
team.

Quoted message said:

Is it possible, just possible, that today's
performance was planned?

No. I think it is possible, though, that you are a dumbass for making up
all these excuses.

NS

Jim Martin said:

Do you guys really believe that every member of Discovery, except Lance,
got dropped today? Is it possible, just possible, that today's
performance was planned?

Imagine that tomorrow T Mobile feels compelled to seize the moment and
goes on the attack... what would happen if they gunned it again and
again and finally looked back to see that in fact they had not dropped
the Disco boys? Maybe they would see those boys riding tempo. Do you
think that might be a good time for a poker playing LA to go on the attack?

Come on. Discovery chased down the early attacks by Vino -
Savoldelli chased with LANCE on his wheel. You think that
was for a double misdirection - "We'll make it look good
but then we'll slip off the back"? That's like a plot twist
out of a bad mystery novel. NFW would they let LANCE be isolated
on the final run-in if they had a choice about it, in case
there were further attacks on the flat.

Discovery might not stink as bad tomorrow. It is a different
kind of stage. With a long steady climb, they might be able
to do the killer-tempo strategy to burn out rivals, if the team
is up to it. But you are not going to see "poker playing LA"
attack on the climb to go solo over the top - it's 55k from the
top to Mulhouse. Nothing in his TdF wins suggests LANCE will
try to attack and solo 55k to a finish. I mean, it would be
kind of cool if he tried, but I don't see it.

Quoted message said:

Did you watch it, because that was exactly what happened. That makes more
sense to believe it wasn't part of some brilliant plan than thinking they
intentionally left him isolated to respond to attacks by everyone else.

Ya know, I think it was before the stage Lance mentioned that there were
a lot of tired guys in the peloton. Maybe he was talking about his own
team.

Quoted message said:

Is it possible, just possible, that today's
performance was planned?

No. I think it is possible, though, that you are a dumbass for making up
all these excuses.

NS

It's time to break out the medicine. If the other teams are doing it,
Discovery must match them pill for pill, hypo for hypo. I'm talking about
Darwinism, does Discovery have the will to survive.

No way.

But, the only support I can see for the "this was a ruse" argument has
nothing to do with the team performance on the road. It was the
performance AFTER the stage that was weird. Lance doesn't usually ever
ever ever broadcast weakness. I would expect him to rip everyone a new
[censored] on the bus. That he made such a scene in every interview post
race "GUYS WHAT HAPPENED"?-- to me, that seemed odd. Maybe it's the
new, open, heart-on-my-sleeve Lance.

Jim Martin said:

Do you guys really believe that every member of Discovery, except
Lance, got dropped today? Is it possible, just possible, that today's
performance was planned?

No matter what happens tomorrow (and to be honest, I don't think the GC will
change that much with the last climb so far from the finish), today was not
a good day for Discovery. Compare to how they rode last year, when there was
always at least one guy with Lance on the final climb, and he basically had
an armchair ride to Paris as his team pretty well blew away all the
contenders.

Today, sure he might have been able to handle the attacks from Vino, but
it's never a good idea to be isolated in a group of 30 GC guys with 20 km to
go. What if he had a mechanical/puncture/crash? No-one to tow him back. I
know Bruyneel and Discovery would not have planned it that way.

You could also tell that Armstrong was geniunely surprised/concerned at the
finish in his interviews. He's good at bluffing sometimes, but most of the
time right after stage, he says what he thinks and is quite spontaneous.
Maybe later on at the press conference, he's a bit more cagey. I remember
stuff from the 2003 Tour, when he was in trouble for a while, but then came
good on that stage to Luz Ardiden. You could instantly tell the difference
once he knew he had it in the bag.

Discovery has riders who should have been there with Lance today, but after
four days of defending the yellow, it's not surprising that they're a little
tired. Hincapie used up his fire in the early break to get the 6 bonus
seconds, otherwise he probably would have been there. Unfortunately for him,
he lost a minute on the last climb.

Jeff

On Sat, 09 Jul 2005 15:42:49 -0600, Jim Martin <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Do you guys really believe that every member of Discovery, except Lance,
got dropped today? Is it possible, just possible, that today's
performance was planned?

Imagine that tomorrow T Mobile feels compelled to seize the moment and
goes on the attack... what would happen if they gunned it again and
again and finally looked back to see that in fact they had not dropped
the Disco boys? Maybe they would see those boys riding tempo. Do you
think that might be a good time for a poker playing LA to go on the attack?

We'll see tomorrow.

Cheers,

Jim

Considering there were 30 people able to stay in Armstrong's group and
NONE of them were DSC it's pretty scary for him.

For your assertions to be correct there would need to be a motive.
What would DSC/Armstrong gain by doing this?

D

All these theories sounded just too far fetched. .

I think the Disco boys had a bad day. Period. If it was an act, nobody
would have believed it (it was *only* a cat. 2 climb, you know). But
nobody should count on this as a weakness finally shown by DC either,
everybody bounces back from an extraordinary bad day.

With 3 contenders, I don't know how Telekom can plan their strategy.
Just throw everyone out there and hope for the best? With Vino/Kloeden
breaking away, will Ulrich be content sitting on Armstrong's wheel and
vice versa?

7h@ch said:

All these theories sounded just too far fetched. .

I think the Disco boys had a bad day. Period. If it was an act, nobody
would have believed it (it was *only* a cat. 2 climb, you know). But
nobody should count on this as a weakness finally shown by DC either,
everybody bounces back from an extraordinary bad day.

With 3 contenders, I don't know how Telekom can plan their strategy.
Just throw everyone out there and hope for the best? With Vino/Kloeden
breaking away, will Ulrich be content sitting on Armstrong's wheel and
vice versa?

Ex-mutha-fudgin-zactly!

"Jeff Jones" <jeff@cyclingnews-punt-com> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

No matter what happens tomorrow (and to be honest, I don't think the GC
will change that much with the last climb so far from the finish), today

I agree. But it should be a VERY interesting day. I've got to think that even
though the last climb is a ways from the finish, it will probably take the
sprinters teams out of the picture. So the bulk of controlling the race will
be left up to Discovery. You can be sure there are some opportunists who are
high enough on the GC to make that a long, hard job.

Quoted message said:

was not a good day for Discovery. Compare to how they rode last year,
when there was always at least one guy with Lance on the final climb,
and he basically had an armchair ride to Paris as his team pretty well
blew away all the contenders.

Perhaps what we're seeing here is a result of the Pro Tour? Prior to this
year, LANCE!'s team had only one priority--the Tour. They didn't do the Giro,
or much else that wasn't designed to deliver them to July in France in peak
form. That's a luxury they don't have this year. They've actually had to do
what most other teams have done all along....race all season. Could it be
that when LANCE! says, "Riders are generally tired," he's refering to the
guys on his team?

And if it is true that the Pro Tour has the effect of evening the field in
the TdF, wouldn't the irony be delicious? After all the pissing and moaning
ASO did about the Pro Tour, the Pro Tour finally gives us an interesting TdF!

Tim Mullin <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Perhaps what we're seeing here is a result of the Pro Tour? Prior to
this year, LANCE!'s team had only one priority--the Tour. They didn't
do the Giro, or much else that wasn't designed to deliver them to July
in France in peak form. That's a luxury they don't have this year.
They've actually had to do what most other teams have done all
along....race all season.

So far your theory is based on Discovery doing 1 race, the Giro, that
they haven't done in the past; that makes it a pretty lame theory. Funny
thing is that the only guy from the Giro team was the last one to stick
with LANCE.

Furthermore, the other Pro Tour Teams have the same problem yet TMO, IB
and others didn't get shelled the way Discovery did today.

So why not wait until tomorrow to see how they do in the big mountains
before coming up with screwy excuses?

NS

Tim Mullin <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Perhaps what we're seeing here is a result of the Pro Tour? Prior to
this year, LANCE!'s team had only one priority--the Tour. They didn't
do the Giro, or much else that wasn't designed to deliver them to July
in France in peak form. That's a luxury they don't have this year.
They've actually had to do what most other teams have done all
along....race all season. Could it be that when LANCE! says, "Riders
are generally tired," he's refering to the guys on his team?

Aren't the Pro Tour teams deep enough that they can cover their PT
obligations without overstressing their riders? Danielson, Barry, Hoste,
McCarty, Creed, etc. are doing the Tour of Austria right now.

I'm tending to agree with you. It one point on the climb, LA had at
least six teammates with him, then less than six minutes later all of
them had been dropped and he was alone. Seems very odd to me. And it
isn't like they haven't pulled off bluffs before, albeit on a smaller
scale... Tomorrow will be interesting!

Nev Shea said:

So far your theory is based on Discovery doing 1 race, the Giro, that
they haven't done in the past; that makes it a pretty lame theory.

Err....no. You do understand what the Pro Tour is, don't you? Last
yearfor USPS: Tour de Romandie-did not compete. Tour de Suisse-did not
compete. That's not one race, that's three tours, one of them a Grand
Tour. That's a lot of racing they didn't have to do last year. Having
to field a team for all those races makes it more difficult than having
to focus on and prepare for only the TdF.

Quoted message said:

Furthermore, the other Pro Tour Teams have the same problem yet TMO, IB
and others didn't get shelled the way Discovery did today.

I never said the other teams couldn't have the same happen to them.
Indeed, in years past, that's exactly what we've seen. What is unusual
is that now we've seen it happen to LANCE!'s team, andI can't remember
that happening before.

Quoted message said:

So why not wait until tomorrow to see how they do in the big mountains
before coming up with screwy excuses?

And where did I make an excuse for what? Actually, today's stage played
out pretty much like I thought it would. Discovery had to ride at the
front all day. Telekom and CSC (with the exception of Voigt) didn't
have tostick their heads into the wind once. CSC wound up with the MJ
exactly where they wanted it, and they won't have to defend on Tuesday,
because with a well rested Basso, Sastre,and Jullich, it's going to be
a free for all.

PanFan said:

Aren't the Pro Tour teams deep enough that they can cover their PT
obligations without overstressing their riders?

That's not what I said. If you look at USPS in previous seasons, their
entire focus was the Tour. Everything they did was designed to bring
the best team into peak form in July. And if that meant not doing a lot
of races, that's what they did. Now, they don't have that luxury. To
their credit, they've had some excellent results in the Pro Tour, but
I've got to believe they're paying for it by having a Tour team that
isn't as dominant as in past years.

[email hidden] wrote in news:1121027843.651288.236760
@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

See what I get for posting from my lovely wife's laptop? [censored], I don't even
know who I am!

Nev Shea <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Oh, NOW I understand. The Discovery team now in France is worn out as
a sympathetic response to the racing done by the lunchmeat the team
sent to the TdS and other Pro Tour races that didn't interest them.

You mean like Savodelli (Giro and Romandie) and Padrnos (Giro) Beltran
(Romandie)? And no, I am not saying they're worn out. I am saying that in
previous years, the team has had the luxury of being able to focus solely
on what's best for them for the Tour, and now some of that ability is gone.

Earlier you mentioned said:

Funny thing is that the only guy from the Giro team was the last one to
stick with LANCE.

For the moment we'll ignore that fact that he wasn't the only guy from the
Giro team [by now we're used to you getting the facts wrong], and focus on
your belief that the fact that he was the last guy dropped is a sign that
he prepared properly for the Tour. Little hint there: getting dropped is
never a sign of anything good....especially when it leaves your team leader
isolated.

This is from Brad McGee:

McGee was behind Kazakhstan champion Alexandre Vinokourov when he
attacked at the tour's first main climb, in a bid to expose any
weakness in Armstrong. "When Vino attacked, I wasn't far behind him.
Armstrong went after him, and made a call for his teammates, but there
was nobody there," said McGee."You could feel the panic."

Tim Mullin <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Nev Shea <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Oh, NOW I understand. The Discovery team now in France is worn out as
a sympathetic response to the racing done by the lunchmeat the team
sent to the TdS and other Pro Tour races that didn't interest them.

You mean like Savodelli (Giro and Romandie) and Padrnos (Giro) Beltran
(Romandie)? And no, I am not saying they're worn out. I am saying that
in previous years, the team has had the luxury of being able to focus
solely on what's best for them for the Tour, and now some of that
ability is gone.

Thank you again for clearing that up. Now I see that in the past the team
used to spend the early season playing tiddly winks and saving their
energy, er FOCUS, for one race in July. This damned Pro Tour makes them get
out and race, and therefore ruins their FOCUS for the TdF! This is
terrible!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Funny thing is that the only guy from the Giro team was the last one
to stick with LANCE.

For the moment we'll ignore that fact that he wasn't the only guy from
the Giro team [by now we're used to you getting the facts wrong], and
focus on your belief that the fact that he was the last guy dropped is
a sign that he prepared properly for the Tour. Little hint there:
getting dropped is never a sign of anything good....especially when it
leaves your team leader isolated.

Thank you for that brilliant obvservation.

So what is Discovery to do? Perhaps they should do whatever CSC, T-Mobile,
IB, and other teams do because they didn't have just 1 guy in that lead
bunch. But wait, they're Pro Tour teams too! And you forgot to mention that
LANCE must also suffer from doing these Pro Tour events like the Dauphine
and the TdS in the past.

Duh!

NS