Orthotic adaptation period?

"[email hidden]" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I guess I had hoped that the orthotics would be a magic bullet that
would cure the problems immediately...

Tim:

I wear orthotics (very high arches), and was initially directed to use them
by an orthopedic surgeon after I experienced some ankle injuries.

I don't know what's causing your troubles, but it only took a couple weeks
of wearing them (starting gradually, a couple hours a day, then a couple
more, eventually graduating to wearing them full time) to become
acclimated. And I've had no similar issues since then.

On 22 Sep 2005 06:02:14 -0700, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

but little by little, I started to get
pain in my left ankle. It never hurt while I was running, only the day
after. The pain was inside the joint and also in the tendon behind the
leg.

I took things easy, decreasing milleage and did lots of stretching
exercises, but after some 7 months, things had not really changed
(either for the worse or for the better). I could run a 10K in about 45

minutes, but could never really increase my distance. I hence went to a

sport doctor and was advised that I had mis-aligned legs, or rather
that
my legs were of slightly different lengths and that my knees pointed
inward slightly.

I hence had some shoe orthotics made for me, which I started wearing a
couple of weeks ago. I didn't run in them for about a week to let my
legs get used to them and then I started to run - nothing drastic, jus

Your shoes were wearing out, that caused the gradual pain. If you have
different length legs you need chiropractic adjustments, orthos do not
and will not compensate, and will eventually make your back worse.
Wearing orthos for different length legs is like taking aspirin for a
broken leg, it'll help the pain, but you are only masking the
symptoms.
TBR

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."

I've had various orthotics made by podiatrists over the years and they have
had no effect on my rate of injuries( I'm also a pronator).
The theory sounds convincing but the practice......

"The Bill Rodgers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 22 Sep 2005 06:02:14 -0700, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

but little by little, I started to get
pain in my left ankle. It never hurt while I was running, only the day
after. The pain was inside the joint and also in the tendon behind the
leg.

I took things easy, decreasing milleage and did lots of stretching
exercises, but after some 7 months, things had not really changed
(either for the worse or for the better). I could run a 10K in about 45

minutes, but could never really increase my distance. I hence went to a

sport doctor and was advised that I had mis-aligned legs, or rather
that
my legs were of slightly different lengths and that my knees pointed
inward slightly.

I hence had some shoe orthotics made for me, which I started wearing a
couple of weeks ago. I didn't run in them for about a week to let my
legs get used to them and then I started to run - nothing drastic, jus

Your shoes were wearing out, that caused the gradual pain. If you have
different length legs you need chiropractic adjustments, orthos do not
and will not compensate, and will eventually make your back worse.
Wearing orthos for different length legs is like taking aspirin for a
broken leg, it'll help the pain, but you are only masking the
symptoms.
TBR

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and
the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."

ash said:

I've had various orthotics made by podiatrists over the years and they have
had no effect on my rate of injuries( I'm also a pronator).
The theory sounds convincing but the practice.....

Not only this, but orthos are a LAST RESORT, only after trying dozens
upon dozens of models and brands of shoes. If you've been wearing them
for over 10 years, then it's time to try some of the new shoes on the
market. Things, especially shoes, have improved by leaps and bounds
over the years, and it's highly likely you no longer need them. A
recent study I saw stated that about half the people wearing orthos no
longer need them, mostly due to the upgrading of shoes.
TBR

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

Please note that I wear the orthotics in my shoes all the time and
forget that I have them in there - a typical sedentary life. My legs
ache a bit if I am on my feet all day... It is only when I start to
run,
that after about ten minutes, I start to note the pain. Since it is not

too intense I do not stop, but I can tell the day after, and am
currently only able to do about 30 minutes twice a week....

I know very little about orthotics, having no problems with off the
shelf shoes, so keep this in mind reading my comment:

You don't have problems with your street shoes but do in your running
shoes? Could it be that the orthotics are made for the street shoe with
the running shoe, having more or less structure than the street shoe,
construction affecting your feet differently? Perhaps revisit the
orthodics doc with your running shoes in hand.

--
"Drugs like nicotine and alcohol, which do nothing for you at all,
are legal. Drugs like Mary Jane and mushrooms, two drugs that make
you realize that you're being dry humped every day of your life
by the upper 2%, are illegal. Coincidence?" -- Miss Anne Thrope

Quoted message said:

I am 40 years old and weigh 94Kg. I started running about a year ago
(gradually increasing milleage by 10% a week), and started to get pain
in the front of my right knee (typical runners knee symptoms). Since I
was not using special running shoes I went to a specialist running shop

and was diagnosed both by someone watching me walk, and also on a
machine that measures foot pressure, etc., that I was a pronator.

But did they diagnose *why* you overpronate (some pronation is normal,
so I'm assuming you meant overpronate)?

Quoted message said:

I hence bought some running shoes that both stabalised the pronation
problem and provided support for my weight. Almost immediately the knee

pain stopped, I was thrilled, but little by little, I started to get
pain in my left ankle. It never hurt while I was running, only the day
after. The pain was inside the joint and also in the tendon behind the
leg.

Like the achilles area?

Quoted message said:

I took things easy, decreasing milleage and did lots of stretching
exercises, but after some 7 months, things had not really changed
(either for the worse or for the better). I could run a 10K in about 45

minutes, but could never really increase my distance.

Did you try running at different paces? Sometimes picking up the effort
or lowering it will cause a change in biomechanics, which is enough to
relief some stresses.

I hence went to a

Quoted message said:

sport doctor and was advised that I had mis-aligned legs, or rather
that
my legs were of slightly different lengths and that my knees pointed
inward slightly.

I hence had some shoe orthotics made for me, which I started wearing a
couple of weeks ago. I didn't run in them for about a week to let my
legs get used to them and then I started to run - nothing drastic, just

30 minutes, initially alternate days...

However, since I started to run I have noticed a completely new set of
pains, mainly shin spints type pain in both legs, and hence I was
wondering is this normal and what should I do - I wasn't given much
information from the foot specialist.

No, it's not normal. I adapted to my orthotics much faster than they
tell you to expect - maybe a couple days of a few hours each, then
probably using them almost all the time within about 1 wk or so. I think
I started running with them within a couple days, but I wasn't a regular
runner then. (Whether they were the right orthotics, or not, is a
different matter.)

However, in your case, presumably the orthotic changed your biomechanics
somewhat and perhaps the tension (or lack thereof) on shins - or the
angle. Do you do anything to strengthen your shins, like toe raises or
heel walks (keep toes off ground) - and in multiple directions - forward
and to each side? Perhaps the adjustments are finding some weak muscles
that you need to strengthen.

Just a wild thought. If your knees pointed inward (was this all the time
or only running?), if the orthotics "fixed" that, then the lateral angle
of stresses on legs will be different than before. Hence there may be
some imbalances after orthotics relative to before.

You might see if you can go back to the doctor that prescribed the
orthotics and have him watch you walk or run in them. Sometimes
orthotics need fine tuning - or maybe *you* need strengthening for
certain muscles or certain directions that are now different than what
they used to be. A good doctor should be able to tell.

One thing that's frequently overlooked in strengthening is that most
people do it only front/back direction, whereas running, esp. trail
running, involves some lateral or diagonal motions, and strengthening
should involve all those directions.

Quoted message said:

I guess it is reasonable that since I have been walking in a particular

way for 40 years, then it will take a while for my legs to adapt, but
can anyone tell me how approximately long it will take me to adapt to
them, and what I should do with my running program.

I guess I had hoped that the orthotics would be a magic bullet that
would cure the problems immediately...

Not likely. For some people, a structural change like the orthotic may
be the only fix needed. For many others, it's just one step in a fix,
sometimes combined with physical therapy to strengthen muscle weaknesses
and imbalances. Sometimes the PT might be all that's needed, rather than
a mechanical fix. It varies.

Good luck.

Dot
not a doctor, but have had many visits to an assortment of practitioners
trying to fix my biomechanics

--
"running is a mysterious journey that we take not just to beat other
people or to stay in reasonable physical shape - but to find out more
about ourselves" - Owen Anderson

Dot ha escrito:

Quoted message said:

But did they diagnose *why* you overpronate (some pronation is normal,
so I'm assuming you meant overpronate)?

Yeah, overpronate. I was told that it originated from the way I sat
when I was a kid, not cross legged but on my bottom with my legs
doubled to both sides, with my knees forward. I always found it more
comfortable that way, but apparently it was not good for my knees.

Quoted message said:

Like the achilles area?

Yeah, but also a general ache inside the joint. Note, ache, not pain.

Quoted message said:

Did you try running at different paces? Sometimes picking up the effort
or lowering it will cause a change in biomechanics, which is enough to
relief some stresses.

I only have one pace: slow... I have tried running a lot faster so that
I am actually running less time so as not to strain the legs, but I
haven't noticed a lot of difference...

Quoted message said:

However, in your case, presumably the orthotic changed your biomechanics
somewhat and perhaps the tension (or lack thereof) on shins - or the
angle. Do you do anything to strengthen your shins, like toe raises or
heel walks (keep toes off ground) - and in multiple directions - forward
and to each side? Perhaps the adjustments are finding some weak muscles
that you need to strengthen.

Bingo. That is what I think. I have noticed that I have bruises on my
shins as well, so I try to limit shin exercises.. I am currently trying
to stretch a lot since I am reaaaaaaally stiff. I cannot touch my toes
and my legs are really stiff, especially when I get out of bed in the
morning.

Quoted message said:

You might see if you can go back to the doctor that prescribed the
orthotics and have him watch you walk or run in them. Sometimes
orthotics need fine tuning - or maybe *you* need strengthening for
certain muscles or certain directions that are now different than what
they used to be. A good doctor should be able to tell.

That is a good idea.

Quoted message said:

One thing that's frequently overlooked in strengthening is that most
people do it only front/back direction, whereas running, esp. trail
running, involves some lateral or diagonal motions, and strengthening
should involve all those directions.

Is there a *definitive* list of stretches some place on the Web that I
can use?

Quoted message said:

Good luck.

Dot

Many thanks Dot.

Tim

Great advice, Dot.

Tim, I don't know about a definitive list of exercises, but after going
through PT for foot, ankle, and knee issues, I learned a couple of ones
that helped to stretch and strengthen the muscles used for lateral
motions:

1. Sit normally on a chair with a pile of marbles in front of you (bare
feet). Pick up the marbles with your toes, one by one, and move them
to another spot just a few inches away, maybe into a bowl just a few
inches away. Make sure it's your shin/calf muscle that does the work
(ie move the ankle, but don't move your leg from the knee or hip--it's
a very small movement).

2. Get one of those rubbery balance discs (about 12 inches in
diameter). All you do is stand on it on one foot for a minute or so at
a time and try not to fall off. I don't have one of them, but I stand
on one foot a lot while doing normal stuff, which can create imbalances
that force me to use those muscles (e.g.the upper body motions of
brushing teeth, blowdrying hair, cooking, etc create an imbalance that
makes one recruit different muscles). Try to use the lower leg to
balance rather than, for example, bending over at the waist or flailing
your arms to catch your balance.

On 24 Sep 2005 04:31:44 -0700, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I was told that it originated from the way I sat
when I was a kid, not cross legged but on my bottom with my legs
doubled to both sides, with my knees forward.

ROTFLMFAO! Good one! Plese tell us, who was the idiot who told you
this?

Quoted message said:

Dot ha escrito:

Quoted message said:

One thing that's frequently overlooked in strengthening is that most
people do it only front/back direction, whereas running, esp. trail
running, involves some lateral or diagonal motions, and strengthening
should involve all those directions.

Is there a *definitive* list of stretches some place on the Web that I
can use?

There's an assortment of places with multiple flavors of same basic
stretch, sometimes. Here's some stretching and strengthening that I've
posted in the past (here & elsewhere, so if it sounds cut and pasted, it
is) - not necessarily definitive - but they do emphasize the multiple
directions.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0125b.htm
This says for achilles, but there's 4 good strength and proprioceptive
drills for feet and ankle at the end. Look at the progressions also -
how you start, then increase the difficulty until you can do them with
your eyes closed (it will probably take a while).

This is a subset of the ones I did for rehab which included lateral and
diagonally backward motion as well as the forward and diagonally forward
direction. The idea is to strengthen in all 3 planes of motion.

I also did standing lunges - forward, sidewise, diagonal. Progress with
speed or weights. I started standing and leaving the one foot planted.
Then progress to hops, weights, faster, etc.

You could also use wobble boards or some soft mattress (start firm, get
wobblier) to improve proprioception. You might search on that word or
"proprioceptive" to find more about it.

Don't expect to go through the progessions over night. I work on them in
the winter, then back off in the spring. You can probably do them for
years and never run out of some level of difficulty to progress to.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0168b.htm

I think squats will help strengthen knees. Another that works are leg
lifts. Sit with legs extended straight in front. Tighten one so the back
of knee is flat on floor, then lift leg, hold for 10 sec or more.
Repeat. Then do other leg. This should strengthen knee area and help
prevent runners' knee.

The single-leg balance squats and lunges as well as core strengthening
(crunches, etc) should help strengthen things. BUT be careful to keep it
in balance with your running. Too many exercises may leave you weak and
tired for running, which is your real goal. But strengthening weak
muscles and imbalances can go a long way toward helping your adaptation
to running and enjoyment.

These are mostly stretches
http://www.chap.com/peak.htm
http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/stretch.html

If you're interested in more information, you might look at these, which
I came across while I was trying to re-find the first link above.
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/warm-up-exercises.html
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/prehabilitation-exercises.html
http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/1997/10oct/laskow.htm

What I've been doing on a daily basis during summer for 5-10+ min (more
would be better) are barefoot drills on lawn - after I run, if on
running day. I zigzag across my lawn so that I've got at least one turn
each to right and left (more is better since this is the twisting).
Regular walk, heel walk (keep toes up), toe walk (keep heels up) while
dorsiflexing (lift toes toward knees) opposite foot, sideways walking
(ab/adductors - lead with right leg, pull left leg toward it, then lead
with right, etc.; then other direction), grapevine (sometimes called
other things, but moving sideways, left in front of right, move right,
then left behind right, etc.), backward walking. Sometimes I'll do butt
kicks, high stepping. For whatever reason, I'm more likely to do this
type of stretching and fine muscle strengthening than I am to do ones in
a room - and they're more like running.

I do these walking since that's the level that works for me combined
with regular running in the summer. We do these same drills on a
gymnastics floor exercise mat in my winter xt class - following the
instructor as we twist and turn running. He's aerobic but I'm well up in
LT zone. The twisting and turning is what gives the diagonal motion.

Note: I have had achilles (hopefully past) and hip (still working on it,
but gaining) problems so what I do tends to focus on those weak points.

Probably more than what you wanted to know, but hopefully you'll find
some starting points in there. Good luck.

Dot

--
"running is a mysterious journey that we take not just to beat other
people or to stay in reasonable physical shape - but to find out more
about ourselves" - Owen Anderson

An "all-day wobble board" are MBT (Masai Barefoot Technology)
shoes(walking.sports/casual) which have no heel or toe in contact with the
ground but are meant to re-align your body and improve proprioception. £130
in UK. Anybody any experience with them?
"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dot ha escrito:

Quoted message said:

One thing that's frequently overlooked in strengthening is that most
people do it only front/back direction, whereas running, esp. trail
running, involves some lateral or diagonal motions, and strengthening
should involve all those directions.

Is there a *definitive* list of stretches some place on the Web that I
can use?

There's an assortment of places with multiple flavors of same basic
stretch, sometimes. Here's some stretching and strengthening that I've
posted in the past (here & elsewhere, so if it sounds cut and pasted, it
is) - not necessarily definitive - but they do emphasize the multiple
directions.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0125b.htm
This says for achilles, but there's 4 good strength and proprioceptive
drills for feet and ankle at the end. Look at the progressions also - how
you start, then increase the difficulty until you can do them with your
eyes closed (it will probably take a while).

This is a subset of the ones I did for rehab which included lateral and
diagonally backward motion as well as the forward and diagonally forward
direction. The idea is to strengthen in all 3 planes of motion.

I also did standing lunges - forward, sidewise, diagonal. Progress with
speed or weights. I started standing and leaving the one foot planted.
Then progress to hops, weights, faster, etc.

You could also use wobble boards or some soft mattress (start firm, get
wobblier) to improve proprioception. You might search on that word or
"proprioceptive" to find more about it.

Don't expect to go through the progessions over night. I work on them in
the winter, then back off in the spring. You can probably do them for
years and never run out of some level of difficulty to progress to.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0168b.htm

I think squats will help strengthen knees. Another that works are leg
lifts. Sit with legs extended straight in front. Tighten one so the back
of knee is flat on floor, then lift leg, hold for 10 sec or more. Repeat.
Then do other leg. This should strengthen knee area and help prevent
runners' knee.

The single-leg balance squats and lunges as well as core strengthening
(crunches, etc) should help strengthen things. BUT be careful to keep it
in balance with your running. Too many exercises may leave you weak and
tired for running, which is your real goal. But strengthening weak muscles
and imbalances can go a long way toward helping your adaptation to running
and enjoyment.

These are mostly stretches
http://www.chap.com/peak.htm
http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/stretch.html

If you're interested in more information, you might look at these, which I
came across while I was trying to re-find the first link above.
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/warm-up-exercises.html
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/prehabilitation-exercises.html
http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/1997/10oct/laskow.htm

What I've been doing on a daily basis during summer for 5-10+ min (more
would be better) are barefoot drills on lawn - after I run, if on running
day. I zigzag across my lawn so that I've got at least one turn each to
right and left (more is better since this is the twisting). Regular walk,
heel walk (keep toes up), toe walk (keep heels up) while dorsiflexing
(lift toes toward knees) opposite foot, sideways walking (ab/adductors -
lead with right leg, pull left leg toward it, then lead with right, etc.;
then other direction), grapevine (sometimes called other things, but
moving sideways, left in front of right, move right, then left behind
right, etc.), backward walking. Sometimes I'll do butt kicks, high
stepping. For whatever reason, I'm more likely to do this type of
stretching and fine muscle strengthening than I am to do ones in a room -
and they're more like running.

I do these walking since that's the level that works for me combined with
regular running in the summer. We do these same drills on a gymnastics
floor exercise mat in my winter xt class - following the instructor as we
twist and turn running. He's aerobic but I'm well up in LT zone. The
twisting and turning is what gives the diagonal motion.

Note: I have had achilles (hopefully past) and hip (still working on it,
but gaining) problems so what I do tends to focus on those weak points.

Probably more than what you wanted to know, but hopefully you'll find some
starting points in there. Good luck.

Dot

--
"running is a mysterious journey that we take not just to beat other
people or to stay in reasonable physical shape - but to find out more
about ourselves" - Owen Anderson

Hi Dot:

Quoted message said:

Probably more than what you wanted to know, but hopefully you'll find
some starting points in there. Good luck.

Sorry I didn't get back to thank you for the information before, but
work has got really hectic these last few days and I haven't had time.

Thanks for such great information, I will definately give it a try.

Regards,

Tim