opinions on integrated headsets?

vincent chiao said:

Hi, I was wondering what you guys think of integrated headsets and their durability? I had read
something from the folks at Chris King, who I presume know a thing or two about headsets, which
really damned integrated headsets as flawed and claimed they would eventually destroy the frame.
Now I'm asking this because I just received a frame (from Leader) which I *thought* used an
aheadset type headset, but in *fact* uses--you guessed it, an integrated headset. Should I
return/sell this frame and get a new one--is it as dire as Chris King makes it out to be? Or have
people had good, long-term relationships with their integrated headsets? If it's not so bad, does
it matter which integrated headset I get? (Help!) Thanks! Vincent.

Integrated Headsets...

Just Say NO!

Many of my mechanic freinds have rue'ed the day these things came out on the market. The only
benefit is to the manufacturers. One member of my club has gone through 3 in 6 months this year.
Granted, I live in a wetter than usual climate (Oregon) but 3 headsets is beyond belief.

Joe
--
#----------------------------------------------------------# Penguinix Consulting #
#----------------------------------------------------------# Software development, QA and testing. #
#Linux support and training. # "Don't fear the penguin!" #
#----------------------------------------------------------# Registered Linux user: #309247
#counter.li.orgcounter.li.orgOpen ↗ # ----------------------------------------------------------#

Joe -

I think you may have something with the IHS interpretation of the JDI. Our version seems
remarkably sound.

"Joseph Cipale" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

vincent chiao wrote:

Quoted message said:

Integrated Headsets...

Just Say NO!

Many of my mechanic freinds have rue'ed the day these things came out on the market. The only
benefit is to the manufacturers. One member of my club has gone through 3 in 6 months this year.
Granted, I live in a wetter than usual climate (Oregon) but 3 headsets is beyond belief.

Joe

I can sympathise - I, too, have occasional problems with english.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Vincent Chiao
Hi, I was wondering what you guys think of integrated headsets and their durability? I had read
something from the folks at Chris King, who I presume know a thing or two about headsets, which
really damned integrated headsets as flawed and claimed they would eventually destroy the frame. Now
I'm asking this because I just received a frame (from Leader) which I *thought* used an aheadset
type headset, but in *fact* uses--you guessed it, an integrated headset. Should I return/sell this
frame and get a new one--is it as dire as Chris King makes it out to be? Or have people had good,
long-term relationships with their integrated headsets? If it's not so bad, does it matter which
integrated headset I get? (Help!) Thanks! Vincent.

Even the Chris King site makes a distinction between "integrated" headsets and "internal" headsets, which are essentially cartridge bearings bonded to the head and steer tubes. CK's Perdido model acknowledges that "you can have a sexy-looking, low profile headset that won't turn into a headache." I think my internal headset looks cool but if I ever have to replace it I'm sure I'll be swearing at it, but as CK also says "a properly designed headset should last the life of the frame.", that's what I'm banking on. Had to replace a Campy headset once on my old crit bike (it was Brinelled) but then I transferred that second headset (also Campy threaded type) to a new frame a few years later and have been riding it without problems for another 10 years.

I suggest keeping your frame, it's got the same type of headset attachment as a hundred other high-end framesets.

"vincent chiao" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Or have people had good, long-term relationships with their integrated headsets? If it's not so
bad, does it matter which integrated headset I get? (Help!) Thanks! Vincent.

Long-term on something that is relatively recent? Reminds me of the job descriptions I see where
they ask for minimum 5 years experience with something that has been around 3-4 years. Basic
message, no one has what I would call long-term experience with the beasts. Everything folks are
saying is based on short term experience or analysis from and engineering standpoint. So you
will have to decide how comfortable you are adopting something that a lot of good engineers
claim is flawed.

My own opinion is that this is a move good for the manufacturers in a couple of ways; one is it
exposes frames to another source of damage that could require frame replacement. Ka-ching! Ka-ching!
I like the idea of frames and parts that will last decades, and I have little confidence that a
frame with integrated headset will last that long. My custom lugged frame, Phil Wood BB, Phil Wood
hubs, CK headset, Campy Racing Triple fder, TA Zephyr crankset .... those should last, and last, and
last. I was ready to buy a high-end, name brand bike last when they switched to integrated
H/S: I wrote them and told them they had just lost a sale and why. Their only response was to put
me on their 'preferred customer mailing list'.

- rick warner

Joseph Cipale said:

Integrated Headsets...

Just Say NO!

Agreed

Quoted message said:

Many of my mechanic freinds have rue'ed the day these things came out on the market. The only
benefit is to the manufacturers. One member of my club has gone through 3 in 6 months this year.
Granted, I live in a wetter than usual climate (Oregon) but 3 headsets is beyond belief.

There could be some sort of rash of bad headsets, or poor installation, in this case. But the real
problem is not replacing it this year, but replacing it 5 years from now when it has worn out, when
the company has gone belly-up, and when the new standard is 1.5" so nothing is available that fits.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | And what if you track down these men and kill them, what if you _`\(,_ | killed all of us?
From every corner of Europe, hundreds, (_)/ (_) | thousands would rise up to take our places.
Even Nazis can't kill that fast. -- Paul Henreid (Casablanca).

Agreed. The purpose of integrated headsets is design obselesence, just like tailfins on a '59 Caddy
(and they probably do as much good), and is also another excuse for the bike racers not to talk to
you! Colnago is right: "if it ain't broken, don't fix it". "Rick Warner" <[email hidden]>
wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"vincent chiao" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Or have people had good, long-term relationships with their integrated headsets? If it's not so
bad, does

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

matter which integrated headset I get? (Help!) Thanks! Vincent.

Long-term on something that is relatively recent? Reminds me of the job descriptions I see where
they ask for minimum 5 years experience with something that has been around 3-4 years. Basic
message, no one has what I would call long-term experience with the beasts. Everything folks are
saying is based on short term experience or analysis from and

engineering

Quoted message said:

standpoint. So you will have to decide how comfortable you are adopting something that a lot of
good engineers claim is flawed.

My own opinion is that this is a move good for the manufacturers in a

couple

Quoted message said:

of ways; one is it exposes frames to another source of damage that could require frame
replacement. Ka-ching! Ka-ching! I like the idea of frames and parts that will last decades, and I
have little confidence that a frame with integrated headset will last that long. My custom lugged
frame, Phil Wood BB, Phil Wood hubs, CK headset, Campy Racing Triple fder, TA Zephyr crankset ....
those should last, and last, and last. I was ready to buy a high-end, name brand bike last when
they switched to

integrated

Quoted message said:

H/S: I wrote them and told them they had just lost a sale and why. Their only response was to put
me on their 'preferred customer mailing

list'.

Quoted message said:

- rick warner

My extended character set doesn't allow me to show projectile vomiting.

--
Robin Hubert <[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"vincent chiao" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Or have people had good, long-term relationships with their integrated headsets? If it's not
so bad, does

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

matter which integrated headset I get? (Help!) Thanks! Vincent.

Quoted message said:

"Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Long-term on something that is relatively recent? Reminds me of the job descriptions I see where
they ask for minimum 5 years experience with something that has been around 3-4 years. Basic
message, no one has what I would call long-term experience with the beasts. Everything

folks

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are saying is based on short term experience or analysis from and

engineering

Quoted message said:

standpoint. So you will have to decide how comfortable you are

adopting

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

something that a lot of good engineers claim is flawed.

My own opinion is that this is a move good for the manufacturers in a

couple

Quoted message said:

of ways; one is it exposes frames to another source of damage that could require frame
replacement. Ka-ching! Ka-ching! I like the idea of frames and parts that will last decades, and
I have little confidence

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a frame with integrated headset will last that long. My custom lugged frame, Phil Wood BB, Phil
Wood hubs, CK headset, Campy Racing Triple

fder,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

TA Zephyr crankset .... those should last, and last, and last. I was ready to buy a high-end,
name brand bike last when they switched to

integrated

Quoted message said:

H/S: I wrote them and told them they had just lost a sale and why. Their only response was to
put me on their 'preferred customer mailing

list'.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Agreed. The purpose of integrated headsets is design obselesence, just

like

Quoted message said:

tailfins on a '59 Caddy (and they probably do as much good), and is also another excuse for the
bike racers not to talk to you! Colnago is right:

"if

Quoted message said:

it ain't broken, don't fix it".

Ernesto "Twin Seat Tubes" Colnago said that?

--
Andrew Muzi yellowjersey.orgyellowjersey.orgOpen ↗ Open every day since 1 April 1971

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"vincent chiao" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

>Or have people had good, long-term relationships with their integrated headsets? If it's not so
>bad, does

it

Quoted message said:

>matter which integrated headset I get? (Help!) Thanks! Vincent.

Quoted message said:

"Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Long-term on something that is relatively recent? Reminds me of the job descriptions I see where
they ask for minimum 5 years experience with something that has been around 3-4 years. Basic
message, no one has what I would call long-term experience with the beasts. Everything

folks

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are saying is based on short term experience or analysis from and

engineering

Quoted message said:

standpoint. So you will have to decide how comfortable you are

adopting

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

something that a lot of good engineers claim is flawed.

My own opinion is that this is a move good for the manufacturers in a

couple

Quoted message said:

of ways; one is it exposes frames to another source of damage that could require frame
replacement. Ka-ching! Ka-ching! I like the idea of frames and parts that will last decades, and
I have little confidence

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a frame with integrated headset will last that long. My custom lugged frame, Phil Wood BB, Phil
Wood hubs, CK headset, Campy Racing Triple

fder,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

TA Zephyr crankset .... those should last, and last, and last. I was ready to buy a high-end,
name brand bike last when they switched to

integrated

Quoted message said:

H/S: I wrote them and told them they had just lost a sale and why. Their only response was to
put me on their 'preferred customer mailing

list'.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Agreed. The purpose of integrated headsets is design obselesence, just

like

Quoted message said:

tailfins on a '59 Caddy (and they probably do as much good), and is also another excuse for the
bike racers not to talk to you! Colnago is right:

"if

Quoted message said:

it ain't broken, don't fix it".

Ernesto "Twin Seat Tubes" Colnago said that?

I remember when Colnago played with twin downtubes; did he also toy with twin seat tubes? Didn't
Gios once push the twin seat tube idea?

Mark McMaster [email hidden]

vincent asked-<< Hi, I was wondering what you guys think of integrated headsets and their
durability? >><BR><BR>

Just saw a Cramerotti with an ovalized headtube with a integrated HS.

Think it's an answer to a not asked question BUT aluminum and ti frame builders like it as the 1 1/8
inch headtube, if integrated, is the biggest there is. 'Rounder' miters, easier to weld.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Quoted message said:

Agreed. The purpose of integrated headsets is design obselesence, just like tailfins on a '59 Caddy
(and they probably do as much good),

Hey, those tailfins look damn good.

Jasper

Robin Hubert at [email hidden] wrote on 6/16/03 10:12 PM:

Quoted message said:

My extended character set doesn't allow me to show projectile vomiting.

easy....

%^0 ---===###@

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Mark McMaster

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Colnago is right: "if it ain't broken, don't fix it".

Ernesto "Twin Seat Tubes" Colnago said that?

I remember when Colnago played with twin downtubes; did he also toy with twin seat tubes? Didn't
Gios once push the twin seat tube idea?

Mark McMaster [email hidden]

I don't know if Ernesto ever said that, he certainly wasn't the first to say that.
First straight-blade forks I ever saw were also on a Colnago.
I think the first carbon rear triangle I ever saw was on a Colnago (not a monostay).
FYI, plural of Colnago is Colnaghi.

@#!&%#%&*!!$^&!!

Sheldon "Brevity Is The Soul Of Wit" Brown +-----------------------------------------+
| When I cannot sing my heart, | I can only speak my mind... | --John Lennon |
+-----------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote, about integrated headsets:

Quoted message said:

...the real problem is not replacing it this year, but replacing it 5 years from now when it has
worn out, when the company has gone belly-up, and when the new standard is 1.5" so nothing is
available that fits.

Actually, "integrated" headsets fit in a bigger bore than any other commonly used headsets,
and should therefore be sleevable to fit any other headset standard (with the possible
exception of 1.5"😉.

Even if you don't trust in the continued availability of integrated HS parts, the fact that they are
retrofittable is a hedge against incompatibility in the long run.

Chalo Colina

"Jim Edgar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Robin Hubert at [email hidden] wrote on 6/16/03 10:12 PM:

Quoted message said:

My extended character set doesn't allow me to show projectile vomiting.

easy....

%^0 ---===###@

Thank you!

--
Robin Hubert <[email hidden]

"Chalo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote, about integrated headsets:

Quoted message said:

...the real problem is not replacing it this year, but replacing it 5 years from now when it has
worn out, when the company has gone belly-up, and when the new standard is 1.5" so nothing is
available that fits.

Actually, "integrated" headsets fit in a bigger bore than any other commonly used headsets,
and should therefore be sleevable to fit any other headset standard (with the possible
exception of 1.5"😉.

Provided there is a tool or tools to accomplish the job, and that the head tube material will allow
the retrofit.

Quoted message said:

Even if you don't trust in the continued availability of integrated HS parts, the fact that they
are retrofittable is a hedge against incompatibility in the long run.

Chalo Colina

--
Robin Hubert <[email hidden]

Chalo said:

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote, about integrated headsets:

Quoted message said:

...the real problem is not replacing it this year, but replacing it 5 years from now when it has
worn out, when the company has gone belly-up, and when the new standard is 1.5" so nothing is
available that fits.

Actually, "integrated" headsets fit in a bigger bore than any other commonly used headsets,
and should therefore be sleevable to fit any other headset standard (with the possible
exception of 1.5"😉.

Even if you don't trust in the continued availability of integrated HS parts, the fact that they
are retrofittable is a hedge against incompatibility in the long run.

Not really. Yeah, the headset will be re-usable. But you are talking about a $50 part embedded in a
$1000 frame. Finding a headset to fit the frame is the issue, not finding a frame sleeve to let the
headset work.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | A mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems. _`\(,_ | -- Paul Erdos
(_)/ (_) |

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>"vincent chiao" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

-snip-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> does it
>>matter which integrated headset I get? (Help!) Thanks!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

-snip-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>H/S: I wrote them and told them they had just lost a sale and why. Their only response was to
> put me on their 'preferred customer mailing
list'.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Agreed. The purpose of integrated headsets is design obselesence, just

like

Quoted message said:

tailfins on a '59 Caddy (and they probably do as much good), and is also another excuse for the
bike racers not to talk to you! Colnago is right: if it ain't broken, don't fix it".

Quoted message said:

A Muzi said:

Ernesto "Twin Seat Tubes" Colnago said that?

"Mark McMaster" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I remember when Colnago played with twin downtubes; did he also toy with twin seat tubes? Didn't
Gios once push the twin seat tube idea?

I'm not Colnago-obsessed. I may have remembered that wrong. I found "If it ain't broken. . . " being
ascribed to Ernesto humorous, anyway.
--
Andrew Muzi yellowjersey.orgyellowjersey.orgOpen ↗ Open every day since 1 April 1971