Opinions and choice?

in message <[email hidden]>, Sniper805

(L96A1) (') said:

The choice is

Trek 1500,
Trek Equinox 5 or
Canondale R700

Opinions on relative merits of each or first hand experience of any of
the above would be gratefully recieved.

The Cannondale is a really, really nice frame. Like so many Cannondales
(until you're paying silly money), it's slightly let down by the fact
that they've spent so much on that hand-made-in-the-US frame that they
have to skimp on the finishing kit. On the other hand Evans (and
possibly some others) still have 2005 spec R900s with Campag
transmission (but it's still only Veloce, and the wheels are Gipiemme
which many people regard as [censored]) for not much more than an 06 R700.

I don't know the Trek frames. But the finishing kit on the 1500 is better
than on the Cannondale. The Equinox 5 just looks like an expensive way
to buy a set of tribars. Again, I don't know the bike, but the finish
kit is massively less good than on the 1500, and I can't see anything
special about the specification which justifies its price.

A road bike is essentially a frame, a groupset, a pair of wheels, a stem,
bars, pedals, seatpost, seat. The frame is the longest lasting
component, so there's some sense in buying a good frame with cheap kit,
and upgrading over time as things wear out, which is an argument for the
Cannondale.

But what I suggest is you first decide whether you prefer the ergonomics
of Shimano or Campagnolo integrated levers; then decide whether you want
an aluminium or a carbon frame (all your choices are aluminium; I
personally wouldn't buy an aluminium road bike now, I'm convinced carbon
is better). Then find a manufacturer who offers the groupset you want on
a frame you like at a price you can afford. Or, alternatively, buy a
frame and build it up with your own choice of components - this can be
surprisingly affordable.

Claud Butler do a remarkably nice carbon Strada for about £950 - the
finish kit is a bit mixed but it isn't dreadful; otherwise carbon bikes
are mostly above £1200, but in my opinion they're worth the extra.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Usenet: like distance learning without the learning.

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Sniper805

(L96A1) (') said:

The choice is

Trek 1500,
Trek Equinox 5 or
Canondale R700

Opinions on relative merits of each or first hand experience of any of
the above would be gratefully recieved.

The Cannondale is a really, really nice frame. Like so many Cannondales
(until you're paying silly money), it's slightly let down by the fact
that they've spent so much on that hand-made-in-the-US frame that they
have to skimp on the finishing kit. On the other hand Evans (and
possibly some others) still have 2005 spec R900s with Campag
transmission (but it's still only Veloce, and the wheels are Gipiemme
which many people regard as [censored]) for not much more than an 06 R700.

I don't know the Trek frames. But the finishing kit on the 1500 is better
than on the Cannondale. The Equinox 5 just looks like an expensive way
to buy a set of tribars. Again, I don't know the bike, but the finish
kit is massively less good than on the 1500, and I can't see anything
special about the specification which justifies its price.

A road bike is essentially a frame, a groupset, a pair of wheels, a stem,
bars, pedals, seatpost, seat. The frame is the longest lasting
component, so there's some sense in buying a good frame with cheap kit,
and upgrading over time as things wear out, which is an argument for the
Cannondale.

But what I suggest is you first decide whether you prefer the ergonomics
of Shimano or Campagnolo integrated levers; then decide whether you want
an aluminium or a carbon frame (all your choices are aluminium; I
personally wouldn't buy an aluminium road bike now, I'm convinced carbon
is better). Then find a manufacturer who offers the groupset you want on
a frame you like at a price you can afford. Or, alternatively, buy a
frame and build it up with your own choice of components - this can be
surprisingly affordable.

Claud Butler do a remarkably nice carbon Strada for about £950 - the
finish kit is a bit mixed but it isn't dreadful; otherwise carbon bikes
are mostly above £1200, but in my opinion they're worth the extra.

As with many things in life the young, in this case being the boy, go
for the flashy; hence the Equinox 5. I appreciate your input, you may
have put him off this one. I have looked up the relative costings of the
two groupsets and figure the differance should equate to an improvement
in quality and there would also be a weight saving I assume in the
higher quality kit? I am impressed that the Trek is such high spec kit
on the 1500 being only one below their top range dura ace. I have
heard reports that 105 is a minimum race kit so clearly anything above
that is a plus in terms of build and reliability.
I had not heard of Bontrager as a company, the wheels look nice in their
pictures, but how do you they compare to other companies in similar
price ranges quality wise? It seems likely that if Trek are fitting a
high end gear set the wheels and other components are of a similar quality.
Personally I have always had a soft spot for Claud Butler bikes, I have
two in the shed which I find very servicable however the boy desires
something different. He found an advert in C+ for Wheelbase that he has
been pawing over. I am not averse to his choices - although I was never
too keen on the Equinox which just seemed flash.

Sniper8052

in message <[email hidden]>, Sniper805

(L96A1) (') said:

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>,

Sniper805 (L96A1) (') said:

The choice is

Trek 1500,
Trek Equinox 5 or
Canondale R700

Opinions on relative merits of each or first hand experience of any of
the above would be gratefully recieved.

The Cannondale is a really, really nice frame. Like so many
Cannondales (until you're paying silly money), it's slightly let down
by the fact that they've spent so much on that hand-made-in-the-US
frame that they have to skimp on the finishing kit. On the other hand
Evans (and possibly some others) still have 2005 spec R900s with
Campag transmission (but it's still only Veloce, and the wheels are
Gipiemme which many people regard as [censored]) for not much more than an
06 R700.

I don't know the Trek frames. But the finishing kit on the 1500 is
better than on the Cannondale. The Equinox 5 just looks like an
expensive way to buy a set of tribars. Again, I don't know the bike,
but the finish kit is massively less good than on the 1500, and I
can't see anything special about the specification which justifies its
price.

A road bike is essentially a frame, a groupset, a pair of wheels, a
stem, bars, pedals, seatpost, seat. The frame is the longest lasting
component, so there's some sense in buying a good frame with cheap
kit, and upgrading over time as things wear out, which is an argument
for the Cannondale.

But what I suggest is you first decide whether you prefer the
ergonomics of Shimano or Campagnolo integrated levers; then decide
whether you want an aluminium or a carbon frame (all your choices are
aluminium; I personally wouldn't buy an aluminium road bike now, I'm
convinced carbon is better). Then find a manufacturer who offers the
groupset you want on a frame you like at a price you can afford. Or,
alternatively, buy a frame and build it up with your own choice of
components - this can be surprisingly affordable.

Claud Butler do a remarkably nice carbon Strada for about £950 - the
finish kit is a bit mixed but it isn't dreadful; otherwise carbon
bikes are mostly above £1200, but in my opinion they're worth the
extra.

As with many things in life the young, in this case being the boy, go
for the flashy; hence the Equinox 5. I appreciate your input, you may
have put him off this one. I have looked up the relative costings of
the two groupsets and figure the differance should equate to an
improvement in quality and there would also be a weight saving I assume
in the
higher quality kit? I am impressed that the Trek is such high spec
kit
on the 1500 being only one below their top range dura ace. I have
heard reports that 105 is a minimum race kit so clearly anything above
that is a plus in terms of build and reliability.
I had not heard of Bontrager as a company,

Keith Bontrager was an innovative American wheelbuilder, but his company
were bought over by Trek and it is now their in-house brand. The quality
is still supposed to be good, and they still do innovative stuff
particularly with carbon wheels.

Quoted message said:

the wheels look nice in
their pictures, but how do you they compare to other companies in
similar
price ranges quality wise?

The Bontrager Select is their bottom-of-the-range wheelset and retail at
about £114 a pair. I don't have experience of them.

Bottom-of-the-range wheelsets from other good makers include
Campagnolo Vento £127 a pair
Mavic Aksium £110 a pair
Shimano 105 £95 a pair

All of these are good-looking, durable wheels. You can get Gipiemmes (as
fitted to the Cannondale R700) cheaper, but frankly they are not very
durable (bearings go); or Vueltas, but I don't yet know anyone riding on
them so I can't say how good they are.

Quoted message said:

It seems likely that if Trek are fitting a
high end gear set the wheels and other components are of a similar
quality.

A lot of the difference in quality of the finishing kit between the
Cannondale and the Trek is down to the price of the frame, and a lot of
the difference in the price of the frame is the difference in the cost
of labout between the US and Taiwan. But the Cannondale frames genuinely
are very, very nicely made - probably the best aluminium frames
available.

Quoted message said:

Personally I have always had a soft spot for Claud Butler
bikes, I have two in the shed which I find very servicable however the
boy desires something different.

Well, the point of the Claud Butler Strada Carbon is he can get a carbon
fibre bike within your budget. It's the /only/ full carbon fibre road
bike I'm aware of that retails much below £1200, and, as I say, the
finish kit on it isn't dreadful. It's one he ought to look at before he
decides.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Due to financial constraints, the light at the end of the tunnel
has been switched off.

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Sniper805

(L96A1) (') said:

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>,
Sniper805 (L96A1) ([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

>The choice is
>
>Trek 1500,
>Trek Equinox 5 or
>Canondale R700
>
>Opinions on relative merits of each or first hand experience of any of
>the above would be gratefully recieved.

The Cannondale is a really, really nice frame. Like so many
Cannondales (until you're paying silly money), it's slightly let down
by the fact that they've spent so much on that hand-made-in-the-US
frame that they have to skimp on the finishing kit. On the other hand
Evans (and possibly some others) still have 2005 spec R900s with
Campag transmission (but it's still only Veloce, and the wheels are
Gipiemme which many people regard as [censored]) for not much more than an
06 R700.

I don't know the Trek frames. But the finishing kit on the 1500 is
better than on the Cannondale. The Equinox 5 just looks like an
expensive way to buy a set of tribars. Again, I don't know the bike,
but the finish kit is massively less good than on the 1500, and I
can't see anything special about the specification which justifies its
price.

A road bike is essentially a frame, a groupset, a pair of wheels, a
stem, bars, pedals, seatpost, seat. The frame is the longest lasting
component, so there's some sense in buying a good frame with cheap
kit, and upgrading over time as things wear out, which is an argument
for the Cannondale.

But what I suggest is you first decide whether you prefer the
ergonomics of Shimano or Campagnolo integrated levers; then decide
whether you want an aluminium or a carbon frame (all your choices are
aluminium; I personally wouldn't buy an aluminium road bike now, I'm
convinced carbon is better). Then find a manufacturer who offers the
groupset you want on a frame you like at a price you can afford. Or,
alternatively, buy a frame and build it up with your own choice of
components - this can be surprisingly affordable.

Claud Butler do a remarkably nice carbon Strada for about £950 - the
finish kit is a bit mixed but it isn't dreadful; otherwise carbon
bikes are mostly above £1200, but in my opinion they're worth the
extra.

As with many things in life the young, in this case being the boy, go
for the flashy; hence the Equinox 5. I appreciate your input, you may
have put him off this one. I have looked up the relative costings of
the two groupsets and figure the differance should equate to an
improvement in quality and there would also be a weight saving I assume
in the
higher quality kit? I am impressed that the Trek is such high spec
kit
on the 1500 being only one below their top range dura ace. I have
heard reports that 105 is a minimum race kit so clearly anything above
that is a plus in terms of build and reliability.
I had not heard of Bontrager as a company,

Keith Bontrager was an innovative American wheelbuilder, but his company
were bought over by Trek and it is now their in-house brand. The quality
is still supposed to be good, and they still do innovative stuff
particularly with carbon wheels.

Quoted message said:

the wheels look nice in
their pictures, but how do you they compare to other companies in
similar
price ranges quality wise?

The Bontrager Select is their bottom-of-the-range wheelset and retail at
about £114 a pair. I don't have experience of them.

Bottom-of-the-range wheelsets from other good makers include
Campagnolo Vento £127 a pair
Mavic Aksium £110 a pair
Shimano 105 £95 a pair

All of these are good-looking, durable wheels. You can get Gipiemmes (as
fitted to the Cannondale R700) cheaper, but frankly they are not very
durable (bearings go); or Vueltas, but I don't yet know anyone riding on
them so I can't say how good they are.

Quoted message said:

It seems likely that if Trek are fitting a
high end gear set the wheels and other components are of a similar
quality.

A lot of the difference in quality of the finishing kit between the
Cannondale and the Trek is down to the price of the frame, and a lot of
the difference in the price of the frame is the difference in the cost
of labout between the US and Taiwan. But the Cannondale frames genuinely
are very, very nicely made - probably the best aluminium frames
available.

Quoted message said:

Personally I have always had a soft spot for Claud Butler
bikes, I have two in the shed which I find very servicable however the
boy desires something different.

Well, the point of the Claud Butler Strada Carbon is he can get a carbon
fibre bike within your budget. It's the /only/ full carbon fibre road
bike I'm aware of that retails much below £1200, and, as I say, the
finish kit on it isn't dreadful. It's one he ought to look at before he
decides.

Pushing the idea of carbon fibre being an exclusive club may sway his
taste buds 🙂 if you think carbon is really that good that it would be
worth improving the bike at a later date.
His idea is I-!!- can pay for it on the never never for the same price
at Wheelbase so he can have it now if it's Carbon he may have to wait,
which he won't be keen on, or I will have to sacrifice my recumbent cash
again...

Sniper8052

Sniper8052(L96A1) said:

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Sniper805

(L96A1) (') said:

Simon Brooke wrote:

> in message <[email hidden]>,
> Sniper805 (L96A1) ([email hidden]'😉 wrote:
>
>
>
>> The choice is
>>
>> Trek 1500,
>> Trek Equinox 5 or
>> Canondale R700
>>
>> Opinions on relative merits of each or first hand experience of any of
>> the above would be gratefully recieved.
>
>
>
> The Cannondale is a really, really nice frame. Like so many
> Cannondales (until you're paying silly money), it's slightly let down
> by the fact that they've spent so much on that hand-made-in-the-US
> frame that they have to skimp on the finishing kit. On the other hand
> Evans (and possibly some others) still have 2005 spec R900s with
> Campag transmission (but it's still only Veloce, and the wheels are
> Gipiemme which many people regard as [censored]) for not much more than an
> 06 R700.
>
> I don't know the Trek frames. But the finishing kit on the 1500 is
> better than on the Cannondale. The Equinox 5 just looks like an
> expensive way to buy a set of tribars. Again, I don't know the bike,
> but the finish kit is massively less good than on the 1500, and I
> can't see anything special about the specification which justifies its
> price.
>
> A road bike is essentially a frame, a groupset, a pair of wheels, a
> stem, bars, pedals, seatpost, seat. The frame is the longest lasting
> component, so there's some sense in buying a good frame with cheap
> kit, and upgrading over time as things wear out, which is an argument
> for the Cannondale.
>
> But what I suggest is you first decide whether you prefer the
> ergonomics of Shimano or Campagnolo integrated levers; then decide
> whether you want an aluminium or a carbon frame (all your choices are
> aluminium; I personally wouldn't buy an aluminium road bike now, I'm
> convinced carbon is better). Then find a manufacturer who offers the
> groupset you want on a frame you like at a price you can afford. Or,
> alternatively, buy a frame and build it up with your own choice of
> components - this can be surprisingly affordable.
>
> Claud Butler do a remarkably nice carbon Strada for about £950 - the
> finish kit is a bit mixed but it isn't dreadful; otherwise carbon
> bikes are mostly above £1200, but in my opinion they're worth the
> extra.

As with many things in life the young, in this case being the boy, go
for the flashy; hence the Equinox 5. I appreciate your input, you may
have put him off this one. I have looked up the relative costings of
the two groupsets and figure the differance should equate to an
improvement in quality and there would also be a weight saving I assume
in the
higher quality kit? I am impressed that the Trek is such high spec
kit
on the 1500 being only one below their top range dura ace. I have
heard reports that 105 is a minimum race kit so clearly anything above
that is a plus in terms of build and reliability.
I had not heard of Bontrager as a company,

Keith Bontrager was an innovative American wheelbuilder, but his company
were bought over by Trek and it is now their in-house brand. The quality
is still supposed to be good, and they still do innovative stuff
particularly with carbon wheels.

Quoted message said:

the wheels look nice in their pictures, but how do you they compare
to other companies in
similar
price ranges quality wise?

The Bontrager Select is their bottom-of-the-range wheelset and retail at
about £114 a pair. I don't have experience of them.

Bottom-of-the-range wheelsets from other good makers include
Campagnolo Vento £127 a pair
Mavic Aksium £110 a pair
Shimano 105 £95 a pair

All of these are good-looking, durable wheels. You can get Gipiemmes (as
fitted to the Cannondale R700) cheaper, but frankly they are not very
durable (bearings go); or Vueltas, but I don't yet know anyone riding on
them so I can't say how good they are.

Quoted message said:

It seems likely that if Trek are fitting a
high end gear set the wheels and other components are of a similar
quality.

A lot of the difference in quality of the finishing kit between the
Cannondale and the Trek is down to the price of the frame, and a lot of
the difference in the price of the frame is the difference in the cost
of labout between the US and Taiwan. But the Cannondale frames genuinely
are very, very nicely made - probably the best aluminium frames
available.

Quoted message said:

Personally I have always had a soft spot for Claud Butler bikes, I
have two in the shed which I find very servicable however the
boy desires something different.

Well, the point of the Claud Butler Strada Carbon is he can get a carbon
fibre bike within your budget. It's the /only/ full carbon fibre road
bike I'm aware of that retails much below £1200, and, as I say, the
finish kit on it isn't dreadful. It's one he ought to look at before he
decides.

Pushing the idea of carbon fibre being an exclusive club may sway his
taste buds 🙂 if you think carbon is really that good that it would be
worth improving the bike at a later date.
His idea is I-!!- can pay for it on the never never for the same price
at Wheelbase so he can have it now if it's Carbon he may have to wait,
which he won't be keen on, or I will have to sacrifice my recumbent cash
again...

Sniper8052

He has objections, wants three chain rings and is not sure about how
long the frame would last being carbon fibre. Said I thought carbon
fibre was as strong as steel and should stand up to road use for years.
Don't know enough about the stuff myself ie weight against ali frames
benefits of one over the other etc, I suspect a smoother ride.
If we bought a triple clanger for the front would we have to change the
controls to get it to work do you know?
I think the objections have more to do with the name on the side than
the bike but he's much more into the Trek 1500 now than the Canondale.

Sniper8052

Sniper8052(L96A1) said:

[he is] not sure about how
long the frame would last being carbon fibre

I have seen early carbon fiber (sic) Treks around here (California)
that are at least ten years old and have covered tens of thousands of
miles. And they have gotten better at making carbon fiber frames since
then. Basically not a factor to worry about.

A proper bike shop should be willing to convert a double to a triple at
modest cost (likewise any other changes to equipment). Bontrager stuff
is decent for the money.

--
Peter Headland

in message <[email hidden]>, Sniper805

(L96A1) (') said:

Sniper8052(L96A1) said:

Simon Brooke said:

Well, the point of the Claud Butler Strada Carbon is he can get a
carbon fibre bike within your budget. It's the /only/ full carbon
fibre road bike I'm aware of that retails much below £1200, and, as I
say, the finish kit on it isn't dreadful. It's one he ought to look
at before he decides.

Pushing the idea of carbon fibre being an exclusive club may sway his
taste buds 🙂 if you think carbon is really that good that it would be
worth improving the bike at a later date.
His idea is I-!!- can pay for it on the never never for the same price
at Wheelbase so he can have it now if it's Carbon he may have to wait,
which he won't be keen on, or I will have to sacrifice my recumbent
cash again...

He has objections, wants three chain rings

Why does he want a triple? Is he a wuss or a big girls' blouse?

Quoted message said:

and is not sure about how
long the frame would last being carbon fibre. Said I thought carbon
fibre was as strong as steel and should stand up to road use for years.
Don't know enough about the stuff myself ie weight against ali frames
benefits of one over the other etc, I suspect a smoother ride.

At that price I doubt there would be much weight advantage over
aluminium, but there should be a fair bit of comfort advantage. As to
durability, neither aluminium or carbon frames are normally repairable,
and damage to a carbon frame after a heavy crash may not be obvious.
There are arguments about the longevity of aluminium, but in my opinion
it's pretty durable stuff. Epoxy (which is what carbon bikes are bonded
with) degrades in ultra-violet light unless painted, which virtually all
carbon bikes are not. The clear coat should contain UV inhibitors but
there's no real way to check. Store a carbon bike out of direct
sunlight, ideally in a dark cupboard or shed.

Quoted message said:

I think the objections have more to do with the name on the side than
the bike but he's much more into the Trek 1500 now than the Canondale.

In the end it's his bike, but I'd advise waiting 'till the Tour reaches
Paris before making /that/ decision - if he's interested, Trek may be
less appealing by then (and either Giant or Cervelo more appealing).

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; not so much a refugee from reality, more a bogus
;; asylum seeker

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>,
Sniper805 (L96A1) ([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

He has objections, wants three chain rings

Why does he want a triple? Is he a wuss or a big girls' blouse?

Why insult people who like to spin up steel hills in comfort? Should they
not be allowed to ride a nice road bike?

~PB

in message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs

(') said:

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>,
Sniper805 (L96A1) ([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

He has objections, wants three chain rings

Why does he want a triple? Is he a wuss or a big girls' blouse?

Why insult people who like to spin up steel hills in comfort? Should
they not be allowed to ride a nice road bike?

I refuse to use smileys.

Anyway, most of the hills around here are mainly aluminium and silica,
with only small amounts of iron.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Just as defying the law of gravity through building aircraft requires
careful design and a lot of effort, so too does defying laws of
economics. It seems to be a deeply ingrained aspect of humanity to
forever strive to improve things, so unquestioning acceptance of a
free market system seems to me to be unnatural. ;; Charles Bryant

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs

(') said:

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>,
Sniper805 (L96A1) ([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

Quoted message said:

> He has objections, wants three chain rings

Why does he want a triple? Is he a wuss or a big girls' blouse?

Why insult people who like to spin up steel hills in comfort? Should
they not be allowed to ride a nice road bike?

I refuse to use smileys.

I nearly (and should have) asked: "Are you serious?"

~PB

Sniper8052(L96A1) said:

The choice is

Trek 1500,
Trek Equinox 5 or
Canondale R700

Opinions on relative merits of each or first hand experience of any of
the above would be gratefully recieved.

Sniper8052

You've had good advice already, but personally I consider aluminium and
plastic poor choices for bike frames :-)

http://www.fatbirds.co.uk/roadbikes.htm

might be worth a look. They have titanium frames for similar money and
some good sale offers. If exclusivity is important, then titanium will
be the way forward! Everyone will be riding carbon in 5 years as prices
tumble.

The biggest choice is groupset. I go with Campag because I have small
hands and find them more comfortable. Ultegra/Centaur is very nice but
105/Veloce is easily good enough. In fact black 105 looks the best of
all.

Wheels are where savings are made. Shimano 105 have only had good
things written about them, the opposite for Gipiemme. Also bottom of
the range Campag and Mavic are all solid too.

Happy hunting.

daren

Quoted message said:

He has objections, wants three chain rings and is not sure about how
long the frame would last being carbon fibre.

My CF road bike is ten years old and still going fine, even with mild,
superficial crash damage (not by me).

Mine has a triple fitted as an aftermarket jobbie. It's great for allowing
me to go up hills slowly without having to mash - allows me to stay with a
slow group/rider rather than forcing me to whizz up a hill like a show-off
then wait at the top. Quite touching that he's thought about keeping back
with his slow old Dad ;-)