one-leg isolation training: worthwhile?

Raptor said:

spend a lot of time thinking about how to teach non-riders how to ride a
(stationary) bike

"Relax, sit still, shoulders relaxed, hands loose, pedal round, not up
and down, ROUND!"

if you arent a cyclist then it doesnt make sense to pedal with only one leg in
my opinion... i suppose that it could be used to address a strength imbalance,
but thats not why cyclists generally do one legged excersizes....

the real benefit is to cyclists who need to work on pedaling technique... it is
very important to develop an efficient pedaling action.. not that it will make
you able to put so much more power into the pedals at the low rpms that most
people pedal at, but it will enable you to use different muscles to pedal (but
i have to say that it does make a difference in high power, high rpm pedaling
that you would do on the track)... proper technique alleviates fatigue in the
quads enabling you to be more efficient at higher rpms which is important for
the speed and power differences in racing...

but one legged pedaling is only good if you teach proper heel-down technique
that emphasizes rotating the pelvis forward... driving forward across the top
of the stroke and pulling back across the bottom (not push down, pull up- drive
forward, pull back)... this is the right way to pedal smoothly and to recruit
the glutes and hamstrings which are much more fatigue resistant than the quads
and quite good at high output over longer periods... now the work is more
evenly distributed among muscle groups... more force will be available from
the quads for sprinting because they are less tired...

when you pedal with one leg only you can see how you are pedaling because if
you arent smooth the top of you chain jumps around.. (you are using only quads
to push down) and if you are smooth the top of the chain is smooth (your
hamstrings and glutes are working)... thats why its a good drill becuase you
can see exactly where you are and improvement in technique is easy to see...
the important adaptation happens when you apply the technique on the bike with
both legs though...

for cyclists with rollers doing high rpm sprints in a 53x17 is great for
technique... if you arent a smooth pedaler then you will bounce like a basket
ball right off onto your ass... but if you are smooth like a track racer then
you can hit 160 rpms and stay as still if you were doing 90...

if you arent working with cyclists who need proper technique for racing or
recreation, and if you arent going to do the full pedaling technique education
then i dont see that one legged drills are that great... spin class people just
want a hard workout mostly...

[email hidden] (erik saunders) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

if you arent a cyclist then it doesnt make sense to pedal with only one leg in
my opinion... i suppose that it could be used to address a strength imbalance,
but thats not why cyclists generally do one legged excersizes....

the real benefit is to cyclists who need to work on pedaling technique... it is
very important to develop an efficient pedaling action.. not that it will make
you able to put so much more power into the pedals at the low rpms that most
people pedal at, but it will enable you to use different muscles to pedal (but
i have to say that it does make a difference in high power, high rpm pedaling
that you would do on the track)... proper technique alleviates fatigue in the
quads enabling you to be more efficient at higher rpms which is important for
the speed and power differences in racing...

but one legged pedaling is only good if you teach proper heel-down technique
that emphasizes rotating the pelvis forward... driving forward across the top
of the stroke and pulling back across the bottom (not push down, pull up- drive
forward, pull back)... this is the right way to pedal smoothly and to recruit
the glutes and hamstrings which are much more fatigue resistant than the quads
and quite good at high output over longer periods... now the work is more
evenly distributed among muscle groups... more force will be available from
the quads for sprinting because they are less tired...

when you pedal with one leg only you can see how you are pedaling because if
you arent smooth the top of you chain jumps around.. (you are using only quads
to push down) and if you are smooth the top of the chain is smooth (your
hamstrings and glutes are working)... thats why its a good drill becuase you
can see exactly where you are and improvement in technique is easy to see...
the important adaptation happens when you apply the technique on the bike with
both legs though...

for cyclists with rollers doing high rpm sprints in a 53x17 is great for
technique... if you arent a smooth pedaler then you will bounce like a basket
ball right off onto your ass... but if you are smooth like a track racer then
you can hit 160 rpms and stay as still if you were doing 90...

well written answer, Erik.

changing the topic slightly - do people really think 160 rpm is that
hard? I think you gotta break 200 before we are talking about really
high cadence

-RJ

Quoted message said:

if you arent working with cyclists who need proper technique for racing or
recreation, and if you arent going to do the full pedaling technique education
then i dont see that one legged drills are that great... spin class people just
want a hard workout mostly...

In article <[email hidden]>, Ronaldo

Jeremiah said:

changing the topic slightly - do people really think 160 rpm is that
hard? I think you gotta break 200 before we are talking about really
high cadence

Who cares? High cadence for a road time trialist is 120-130 rpm's. For
a track sprinter it might be closer to 160 rpm's. What matters is how
fast you can go.

-WG

erik saunders said:

if you arent a cyclist then it doesnt make sense to pedal with only one leg in
my opinion... i suppose that it could be used to address a strength imbalance,
but thats not why cyclists generally do one legged excersizes....

the real benefit is to cyclists who need to work on pedaling technique... it is
very important to develop an efficient pedaling action.. not that it will make
you able to put so much more power into the pedals at the low rpms that most
people pedal at, but it will enable you to use different muscles to pedal (but
i have to say that it does make a difference in high power, high rpm pedaling
that you would do on the track)... proper technique alleviates fatigue in the
quads enabling you to be more efficient at higher rpms which is important for
the speed and power differences in racing...

Thanks for the input. I see what you're saying.

Now, if we are talking about pulling one leg off and pedaling with one
leg solo, aren't we talking about something different from normal bike
riding? Without both legs on the pedals, your pelvis is/may be tilted
differently, your muscles are being used differently, especially the
muscles that normally stabilize your hip and leg. Your back might be
aligned differently.

That's just speculation. If you (or anyone) can tell me that people -
presumably new cyclists - do benefit from one-legged riding I'll shut up
about it.

It seems to me that if a cyclist doesn't have a good pedaling motion,
they'll get one eventually whether they train specifically for it or not.

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"We should not march into Baghdad. ... Assigning young soldiers to
a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning
them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerilla war, it
could only plunge that part of the world into ever greater
instability." George Bush Sr. in his 1998 book "A World Transformed"

I remember hearing LeMond say something like, "I could rider better than
some of the guys in the peloton with only one leg." Would the UCI have
allowed him to prove this? If you rode with one leg in a time trial, would
you tape you other leg back in an aero position so that it was out of the
breeze? If you did this (rode with one leg), would you then become
compelled to ride with one arm? Would this next cause you to consider
riding with one eye open and tape over one of your ears? Would you take one
crank arm off the bottom bracket? For further weigth savings, would you cut
off one side of your handle bars off too?

"Raptor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm discussing this with other indoor cycling instructors. Note that we
spend a lot of time thinking about how to teach non-riders how to ride a
(stationary) bike, strange as that may sound.

There are two flavors: just emphasizing one leg's pedal stroke and
noodling with the other, or actually removing the "off" leg from the

pedals.

Quoted message said:

The majority opinion is that 1-leg training is worthwhile. Some suggest
it as a diversion or time-filler. Thinking way back to when I started
training seriously, I've never thought of it as being all that useful.
At various times, I'll emphasize a weaker leg's stroke over the other,
but I've never really done the one leg off version. I do less of the
one-side emphasis now since learning that the way to increase strength
and morphology is to lift high weight. Now I push my weaker leg in the
weight room and use 'em both on the bike. I've played around with
neuro-muscular development on the weaker side, trying to teach my body
to raise out of the saddle on the left side instead of the more
natural-feeling right side, but that's not pedal stroke work. But I can
see a potential neuro-muscular benefit from one-leg training.

Over the years, I've heard plenty of experts emphasize the need to
develop an efficient, powerful pedal stroke, but I've not come across
any science, or even any evidence that pedal strokes are a problem for
anyone.

Any authoritative arguments for why we shouldn't ALWAYS pedal with both
legs?

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"We should not march into Baghdad. ... Assigning young soldiers to
a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning
them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerilla war, it
could only plunge that part of the world into ever greater
instability." George Bush Sr. in his 1998 book "A World Transformed"

"Raptor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

erik saunders wrote:
<SNIP>

Quoted message said:

It seems to me that if a cyclist doesn't have a good pedaling motion,
they'll get one eventually whether they train specifically for it or not.

I am not sure the above is true. I believe that after tens of thousands of
miles I still have a horrible pedal stroke. My right leg seems to do most
of the work and I tend to power through the downstroke instead of pedaling
circles. I think that I have just reinforced bad habits instead of
overcoming them. I am interested in what others think.

its not true that you get a good pedal action eventually i had been
riding for three years before i was explained this properly and it
changed everything... my teammate scott swizanski has terrible pedal
action and it hasnt gotten better until he has worked on it some...

the one legged thing is a drill that you can do to get the idea.. try it
and see how you go... then it will be obvious what to do in the course
of normal riding

Raptor said:

erik saunders said:

if you arent a cyclist then it doesnt make sense to pedal with only
one leg in
my opinion... i suppose that it could be used to address a strength
imbalance,
but thats not why cyclists generally do one legged excersizes....
the real benefit is to cyclists who need to work on pedaling
technique... it is
very important to develop an efficient pedaling action.. not that it
will make
you able to put so much more power into the pedals at the low rpms
that most
people pedal at, but it will enable you to use different muscles to
pedal (but
i have to say that it does make a difference in high power, high rpm
pedaling
that you would do on the track)... proper technique alleviates fatigue
in the
quads enabling you to be more efficient at higher rpms which is
important for
the speed and power differences in racing...

Thanks for the input. I see what you're saying.

Now, if we are talking about pulling one leg off and pedaling with one
leg solo, aren't we talking about something different from normal bike
riding? Without both legs on the pedals, your pelvis is/may be tilted
differently, your muscles are being used differently, especially the
muscles that normally stabilize your hip and leg. Your back might be
aligned differently.

That's just speculation. If you (or anyone) can tell me that people -
presumably new cyclists - do benefit from one-legged riding I'll shut up
about it.

It seems to me that if a cyclist doesn't have a good pedaling motion,
they'll get one eventually whether they train specifically for it or not.

"erik saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

its not true that you get a good pedal action eventually i had been
riding for three years before i was explained this properly and it
changed everything... my teammate scott swizanski has terrible pedal
action and it hasnt gotten better until he has worked on it some...

the one legged thing is a drill that you can do to get the idea.. try it
and see how you go... then it will be obvious what to do in the course
of normal riding

That is what I thought. I was doing one leg drills on my trainer this
morning and I found that I am horrible with my left leg. Is you
recommendation to include one leg pedaling in my workouts, or are there
other drills that I should also include?

"erik saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

its not true that you get a good pedal action eventually i had been
riding for three years before i was explained this properly and it
changed everything... my teammate scott swizanski has terrible pedal
action and it hasnt gotten better until he has worked on it some...

the one legged thing is a drill that you can do to get the idea.. try it
and see how you go... then it will be obvious what to do in the course
of normal riding

IMO one legged training is more for strength than good pedal action. The one
legged drill does little for smoothness. And what about the other leg and
the invisible oversized crank it's turning?

Carl Sundquist said:

IMO one legged training is more for strength than good pedal action.

Good exercise: one legged squat (without additional weight even) fully
down and up. Other leg stretched in front, not touching the ground.
Promptly shows leg strength difference.. Also see
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/sa/in_the_gym/workouts/newsid_2135000/2135973.stm

Richard Longwood said:

I remember hearing LeMond say something like, "I could rider better than
some of the guys in the peloton with only one leg." Would the UCI have
allowed him to prove this? If you rode with one leg in a time trial, would
you tape you other leg back in an aero position so that it was out of the
breeze? If you did this (rode with one leg), would you then become
compelled to ride with one arm? Would this next cause you to consider
riding with one eye open and tape over one of your ears? Would you take one
crank arm off the bottom bracket? For further weigth savings, would you cut
off one side of your handle bars off too?

Thanks you for putting into words very well my subtle misgivings about
this practice. 🙂

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"We should not march into Baghdad. ... Assigning young soldiers to
a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning
them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerilla war, it
could only plunge that part of the world into ever greater
instability." George Bush Sr. in his 1998 book "A World Transformed"

Richard Longwood said:

I remember hearing LeMond say something like, "I could rider better than
some of the guys in the peloton with only one leg." Would the UCI have
allowed him to prove this? If you rode with one leg in a time trial, would
you tape you other leg back in an aero position so that it was out of the
breeze? If you did this (rode with one leg), would you then become
compelled to ride with one arm? Would this next cause you to consider
riding with one eye open and tape over one of your ears? Would you take one
crank arm off the bottom bracket? For further weigth savings, would you cut
off one side of your handle bars off too?

Thanks you for putting into words very well my subtle misgivings about
this practice. 🙂

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"We should not march into Baghdad. ... Assigning young soldiers to
a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning
them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerilla war, it
could only plunge that part of the world into ever greater
instability." George Bush Sr. in his 1998 book "A World Transformed"

RWM said:

"erik saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

its not true that you get a good pedal action eventually i had been
riding for three years before i was explained this properly and it
changed everything... my teammate scott swizanski has terrible pedal
action and it hasnt gotten better until he has worked on it some...

the one legged thing is a drill that you can do to get the idea.. try it
and see how you go... then it will be obvious what to do in the course
of normal riding

That is what I thought. I was doing one leg drills on my trainer this
morning and I found that I am horrible with my left leg. Is you
recommendation to include one leg pedaling in my workouts, or are there
other drills that I should also include?

High cadence (105RPM+) work is what I've heard and used in my own
riding. Spend several hours spinning light gears, accelerating and
maintaining speed. I've never had a world class coach look at my riding,
but I seem to be able to spin or mash as needed/desired.

This one-leg stuff seems counter-productive to me. On the rare occasions
I try it, I just use the working leg to give one good smash on the pedal
to maintain momentum. That's whether I'm on a fixed or freewheel gear.

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"We should not march into Baghdad. ... Assigning young soldiers to
a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning
them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerilla war, it
could only plunge that part of the world into ever greater
instability." George Bush Sr. in his 1998 book "A World Transformed"

Raptor said:

RWM said:

"erik saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

its not true that you get a good pedal action eventually i had been
riding for three years before i was explained this properly and it
changed everything... my teammate scott swizanski has terrible pedal
action and it hasnt gotten better until he has worked on it some...

the one legged thing is a drill that you can do to get the idea.. try it
and see how you go... then it will be obvious what to do in the course
of normal riding

That is what I thought. I was doing one leg drills on my trainer this
morning and I found that I am horrible with my left leg. Is you
recommendation to include one leg pedaling in my workouts, or are there
other drills that I should also include?

High cadence (105RPM+) work is what I've heard and used in my own
riding. Spend several hours spinning light gears, accelerating and
maintaining speed. I've never had a world class coach look at my riding,
but I seem to be able to spin or mash as needed/desired.

Did you, in this high cadence training, ever have some days where you just
couldn't get up and spinning? Not like anything is really tired, more like
lack of ability to concentrate or something? If so any tips for working
through it? I'm having a lot of luck with it despite some sticking points.
(Normally I hum a tune to get the rhythm - think fast waltz.)

Quoted message said:

This one-leg stuff seems counter-productive to me. On the rare occasions
I try it, I just use the working leg to give one good smash on the pedal
to maintain momentum. That's whether I'm on a fixed or freewheel gear.

ISM, that -if- you find any bodypart lagging then training it up is a
no-brainer. Regardless of how much I focus on left-leg (non-dominant?)
training, it's always lagging behind, dang it! I wish I had a better way to
train in isolation. Guess I could rig up something on the stationary bike?

-B

In article <[email hidden]>, Badger_South

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:36:13 -0600, Raptor <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

High cadence (105RPM+) work is what I've heard and used in my own
riding. Spend several hours spinning light gears, accelerating and
maintaining speed. I've never had a world class coach look at my riding,
but I seem to be able to spin or mash as needed/desired.

Did you, in this high cadence training, ever have some days where you just
couldn't get up and spinning? Not like anything is really tired, more like
lack of ability to concentrate or something? If so any tips for working
through it?

You will probably do better if you do the "high" rpm stuff
intermittently during the week. Maybe for 10-20 minutes at a time, and
not every day until you get more comfortable with it. Even after weeks
of doing it you may still find that you are ultimately more efficient
at rpm's below 100.

-WG

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Badger_South

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:36:13 -0600, Raptor <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

High cadence (105RPM+) work is what I've heard and used in my own
riding. Spend several hours spinning light gears, accelerating and
maintaining speed. I've never had a world class coach look at my

riding,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but I seem to be able to spin or mash as needed/desired.

Did you, in this high cadence training, ever have some days where you

just

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

couldn't get up and spinning? Not like anything is really tired, more

like

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

lack of ability to concentrate or something? If so any tips for working
through it?

You will probably do better if you do the "high" rpm stuff
intermittently during the week. Maybe for 10-20 minutes at a time, and
not every day until you get more comfortable with it. Even after weeks

Or a lifetime.

Quoted message said:

of doing it you may still find that you are ultimately more efficient
at rpm's below 100.

Andy Coggan

What do yall think of this:

http://www.mlracingteam.com/cyclingteam/pictures.php?album=fit&img=5

JT

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"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What do yall think of this:

http://www.mlracingteam.com/cyclingteam/pictures.php?album=fit&img=5

JT

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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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are there four different bald guys on the team, or
is the same guy chatting up four different mates?
e-RICHIE

ps hey wait - the pic changes each time i click through...