Once more: gyming to improve power

Sounds reasonable

The deadlifts (if you have good form and you probably do by the sounds of former post) are good because it is a controlled movement and the lunges are good because they are a controlled movement.

The jump squats are good, but I come from a school of the thought to be extra cautious with ballistic type of movements. Kind of like the old gym saying control the leg press sled because allowing your knees to lock out quickly and then the sled comes back down on your legs while locked out is not going to be all that great for the longevity of your knees. If you get my drift.🙂 However, many people are doing ballistic type of movements these days.

A few other things to consider are one legged leg press with full range of motion and bench step ups using a weighted bar (it is like lunges but more power is needed through the hips) if you want to add some more variety.

I have to admit, I'm not very familiar with jump squats. Is there any reason for choosing to do them over power cleans or some olympic lifts? Is it just the familiarity issue or are jumping squats better?
As far as weight, someone might have a handy formula to suggest a weight dependant on your 1RM, but if you don't know what your 1RM is, or if you're untrained, then I think you'd probably be wise to follow the old advice and try to find a weight you can lift for sets of 3 to 5 reps. Start light, do a set of five, and then add 5-10 lbs, then try again. Keep adding weight until it's hard. Depending on how well trained your legs are for weightlifting right now, you may or may not be able to add more weight next week.

Enriss said:

Depending on how well trained your legs are for weightlifting right now, you may or may not be able to add more weight next week.

Meaning if they're well trained you won't be able to add weight as easily? Or vice versa.

Usually beginners find it easier to add weight to a movement. The CNS is still adjusting to the needs of that particular movement. In a lot of beginner programs, you add 5 or more pounds to your lifts each time you do them for the first month or so.

Enriss said:

I have to admit, I'm not very familiar with jump squats. Is there any reason for choosing to do them over power cleans or some olympic lifts? Is it just the familiarity issue or are jumping squats better?

I am afraid I should first spend half a year training technique for olympic lifts. Moreover the explosive part in eg. clean is the pull not the squat (power clean could indeed replace deadlift at some point).

Quoted post said:

As far as weight, someone might have a handy formula to suggest a weight dependant on your 1RM, but if you don't know what your 1RM is, or if you're untrained, then I think you'd probably be wise to follow the old advice and try to find a weight you can lift for sets of 3 to 5 reps. Start light, do a set of five, and then add 5-10 lbs, then try again. Keep adding weight until it's hard. Depending on how well trained your legs are for weightlifting right now, you may or may not be able to add more weight next week.

Yes, that definately is my starting point but I meant specifically jump squats. I don't think it is so easy with explosive movements (or is it?) that you just add weight because at some point the whole idea of explosiveness (cycling specific velocity) dissappears.

Felt_Rider said:

The jump squats are good, but I come from a school of the thought to be extra cautious with ballistic type of movements. Kind of like the old gym saying control the leg press sled because allowing your knees to lock out quickly and then the sled comes back down on your legs while locked out is not going to be all that great for the longevity of your knees. If you get my drift.🙂 However, many people are doing ballistic type of movements these days.

I hear you, we're not getting younger here. I don't say that I am old and fragile yet but have to admit that the idea on invincibility and indestrutibility that I had used to live with has had a couple of reality checks when 40 gets closer and I have heard similar stories from my friends 🙁.
It is just that I'd like to be able to replicate the cycling specific conditions (movement angles and velocities) as much as possible.

Quoted post said:

A few other things to consider are one legged leg press with full range of motion and bench step ups using a weighted bar (it is like lunges but more power is needed through the hips) if you want to add some more variety.

One legged press is a good idea, thanks!

I don't mean to intrude on the OP, but does anyone have a good schedule they recommend, that would specifically help me train for cycling in the gym? I'm just finishing up my 1st cycling season (in which I've improved alot as far as strength and endurance) but now I'm looking to start a good off-season winter training plan.

Thank you,
-Greg

gman0482 said:

I don't mean to intrude on the OP, but does anyone have a good schedule they recommend, that would specifically help me train for cycling in the gym? I'm just finishing up my 1st cycling season (in which I've improved alot as far as strength and endurance) but now I'm looking to start a good off-season winter training plan.

Thank you,
-Greg

There is a catch/regular forum reader joke in the Title of this thread. For endurance cycling in general gyming is not your optimal training option (you may read as much as you like from this thread: http://www.cyclingforums.com/cycling-training/126133-gyming-improve-power.html) but only if you are aiming to improve in very short, specific events eg. Kilo or match-sprint.

gman0482 said:

I don't mean to intrude on the OP, but does anyone have a good schedule they recommend, that would specifically help me train for cycling in the gym? I'm just finishing up my 1st cycling season (in which I've improved alot as far as strength and endurance) but now I'm looking to start a good off-season winter training plan.

Thank you,
-Greg

The classic indoor winter training routines for cyclists consists of various intervals on a trainer (with your own bike mounted) or a gym bike. I prefer a gym machine with an electronic load that allows you to set and maintain a consistent power output, but if you're not a gym member, using your own bike at home mounted in a trainer stand works great as well. As long as your trainer allows you to select a consistent training load from session to session, you're good.

The old-school Blackburn Wind Trainer is my choice because the load provided by the fan and flywheel is consistent and realistic. (On these, you change the load by shifting gears, just like on the road). It's noisy, but if you train in a cool garage, who cares? Having an HRM helps to gauge your effort level.

In an hour, you can warm up, do 2x20 intervals, and cool down. You can find threads here about various "zone" workouts and how to set your own load (power) levels. Doing fairly-hard intervals twice a week is enough; the other days you can do easy "recovery" or "endurance" rides.

The reason heavy strength training doesn't help road cycling is that endurance work requires the Type I muscle fibers and the aerobic energy system, while strength uses the Type II. We all are born with a mix of these two; high Type II percentage makes for a natural sprinters, while high Type I favors endurance for sustained climbing and high crusing speeds hour-after-hour. Type I muscles contain mitochrondria for efficient aerobic energy production via the central cardio-vascular system, while Type II relies mostly on the anerobic energy stored in the muscle cells themselves....great for 3-5 reps, but pretty-much dead weight up the hills 🙂

Found a nice article in case someone else is interested: http://kaizenfitness.typepad.com/files/cyclingresistance.pdf

My favorite exercise when I go the gym is bulgarian front squats. It really fries my core and all the way from the front quad to the tailbone.

Frost, just make sure that this thread doesn't turn into a "How to Get Injured for Dummies" thread (I think we have one already). Be wise and respectful of your age (which I know is not 18). 🙂

frost said:

Yes, that definately is my starting point but I meant specifically jump squats. I don't think it is so easy with explosive movements (or is it?) that you just add weight because at some point the whole idea of explosiveness (cycling specific velocity) dissappears.

Well, it depends on the movement you're doing. If you're doing power cleans, it's impossible to not do them explosively. If you're not explosive, you won't get the weight up to your shoulders.

Now, with jump squats, I think you'd be fine to up the weight the same way you do for any other lift as long as you can, but I'm not sure how afraid you should be of failure.

frost said:

Found a nice article in case someone else is interested: http://kaizenfitness.typepad.com/files/cyclingresistance.pdf

Looks like you found the right article.

Along with what you have read, I would still consider a high bench step ups. The article talked about glute strength and this would also be a good movement for the hips flexors. You can either do those with a weighted bar, dumbbells or just body weight. Of course with your height you may have trouble finding a bench high enough. 🙂 This movement will hit the same muscles as the one legged leg press, but again this may be an option if you need to cycle some of the activities.

Felt_Rider said:

Looks like you found the right article.

Along with what you have read, I would still consider a high bench step ups. The article talked about glute strength and this would also be a good movement for the hips flexors. You can either do those with a weighted bar, dumbbells or just body weight. Of course with your height you may have trouble finding a bench high enough. 🙂 This movement will hit the same muscles as the one legged leg press, but again this may be an option if you need to cycle some of the activities.

Yes, those are an excellent move without a doubt. I just managed to kill my knees (and Iliotibial tract at the process) a few years ago doing excessive amount of stair climbing and (non-weighted) bench step ups combined with 3 times a week squatting (yes, clever I know :eek🙂 as a winter training so that is kind of a sore spot for me. It could be (edit: it definately was) that it was the huge volume that caused the problems and doing low volumes with concervative weights does not do that harm.

So it would lunges, one legged press and possibly bench step ups that would be one variant. Deadlift and power clean would be another one. Squat, maybe I just keep in one variant for now because I am really bad squatter, try to concentrate on improving the form there without adding too much complications. Then some abs and maybe just a bit of bench, not because I'd need but it is so nice, unstressful move, just have to be careful because otherwise the shoulders will puff up which isn't very good for aerodynamics.

Generally keep the volume very low (especially now that I am just starting after three years of break). Three basic moves eg. 5x5 or 3x8 + abs. That way I think I could get the best of the both worlds. Some added strength without compromising the quality of FTP-work too much.

frost said:

Yes, those are an excellent move without a doubt. I just managed to kill my knees (and Iliotibial tract at the process) a few years ago doing excessive amount of stair climbing and (non-weighted) bench step ups combined with 3 times a week squatting (yes, clever I know :eek🙂 as a winter training so that is kind of a sore spot for me. It could be (edit: it definately was) that it was the huge volume that caused the problems and doing low volumes with concervative weights does not do that harm.

So it would lunges, one legged press and possibly bench step ups that would be one variant. Deadlift and power clean would be another one. Squat, maybe I just keep in one variant for now because I am really bad squatter, try to concentrate on improving the form there without adding too much complications. Then some abs and maybe just a bit of bench, not because I'd need but it is so nice, unstressful move, just have to be careful because otherwise the shoulders will puff up which isn't very good for aerodynamics.

Generally keep the volume very low (especially now that I am just starting after three years of break). Three basic moves eg. 5x5 or 3x8 + abs. That way I think I could get the best of the both worlds. Some added strength without compromising the quality of FTP-work too much.

It seems like you are on the right track and do not need any advice or guidance. That is why I was just making suggestions of options in case. High bench step ups are not what I personally do, but then again I am a lifting purist and my goals are different than yours. I get plenty of leg strength training through just plain old squats and leg press. Keeping it simple as you say is the best course. Low volume is actually the path to greater strength if you can get warmed up quickly enough. Unfortunately for me I require a lot of warm up sets.

My leg workout yesterday was this: I have a lot of warm up sets before getting to my working sets. Everything I do is full range of motion.

Leg extensions 5 sets (warm up)
Seated leg curls 5 sets (warm up)
One legged leg press 1 set (warm up)
Leg press (4 plates - warm up)
Leg press (6 plates - warm up)
Leg press (8 plates - warm up)
Leg press (10 plates - working set, 6 reps)
Leg press (12 plates or 540 lbs - working set, 6 reps) (fairly easy and felt like 60% of max) 🙂

Squats (135 lbs x 10)
Squats (185 lbs x 6)
Squats (225 lbs x 6)
Squats (225 lbs x 6)
Squats (135 lbs x 10)

The squats are something I have to work back into because of back issues, but between now and December I will be ramping up if my body holds up (back, knees and no muscle strains).

Keep us posted as you progress. I will be interested to see how it works out for you.

Felt_Rider said:

It seems like you are on the right track and do not need any advice or guidance. That is why I was just making suggestions of options in case.

Yes, thanks, I am very greatful for that! Also I think I got some "validation" by posting the plan and hearing opinions.

Quoted post said:

Low volume is actually the path to greater strength if you can get warmed up quickly enough. Unfortunately for me I require a lot of warm up sets.

My leg workout yesterday was this: I have a lot of warm up sets before getting to my working sets. Everything I do is full range of motion.

Leg extensions 5 sets (warm up)
Seated leg curls 5 sets (warm up)
One legged leg press 1 set (warm up)
Leg press (4 plates - warm up)
Leg press (6 plates - warm up)
Leg press (8 plates - warm up)
Leg press (10 plates - working set, 6 reps)
Leg press (12 plates or 540 lbs - working set, 6 reps) (fairly easy and felt like 60% of max) [IMG]cdn.cyclingforums.comsmile.gifOpen ↗[/IMG]

Squats (135 lbs x 10)
Squats (185 lbs x 6)
Squats (225 lbs x 6)
Squats (225 lbs x 6)
Squats (135 lbs x 10)

Actually if you discount the warmups (maybe a bit more and progressing slower than mine) I don't think your volume is excessive. When I say 5x5 or 3x8 it means business. That might precede 2-5 warmup sets depending on movement and weights used (I started the jumping squats with 35kg so there really wasn't need for a long warmup 😄).

PS, when in earth do you wake up :eek:?

frost said:

PS, when in earth do you wake up :eek:?

I was up early (4 am) and off to the gym to do a spin class and work out some of the soreness in my legs and then train chest afterwards. I would normally train again on Tuesday evenings on the trainer & power tap, but this evening I will try to go help some folk after work with some flood damage that occurred last week.

I hope that over the next months I can add some leg strength back. I always train with weights, but there is a difference between training with weights and going into a periodization of strength training and now it is my time to once again go into that mode. Hopefully we both will enter and endure without injury.

Frost,

PM coming soon... 😉

-Meek