On the bright side........

Colin said:

I've put a picture of
the snapped axle on the web at http://preview.tinyurl.com/y8ou2n - I'm
curious about the line of bright metal in the center of the axle.

A quick glance suggests that the two semicircular areas are places
where the crack(s) grew slowly, possibly with the two faces fretting
against each other; and the centre section was a final fast break.

Have a look at the other axle is what I suggest. Look for a crack in
the shaft, and look for a design flaw that might give rise to a crack
- a shoulder with a sharp corner, a bearing or mounting flange with
same. Is perhaps the crack at the end of a threaded portion?

In article <[email hidden]>
Colin <[email hidden]> wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

I've emailed I.C.E in the hope that they have some replacements for my
model (as one failed, I shall replace both), so I await their reply with
crossed fingers. For the metalurgists on U.R.C, I've put a picture of
the snapped axle on the web at http://preview.tinyurl.com/y8ou2n - I'm
curious about the line of bright metal in the center of the axle.

That's the bit that suddenly let go and dumped you on the tarmac - the
other parts of the surface are smoothed where they've been fretting
together as the cracks developed. I expect poor machining left a sharp-
edged stress raiser between the bit of the spindle that goes through the
bearing and the shoulder that the bearing sits against. Was there a
missing spacer? The bearings should be clamped up, but there isn't an
obvious mark on the rusty washer to show that it was sitting tight
against anything. What is the orientation of the fracture?

Colin said:

I bought an early model Trice back in August and have been having much
fun riding it since. Tonight though I was taking the last (sharp) turn
into our road, 50 yards from home when the front nearside stub axle
snapped.

Quoted message said:

I've emailed I.C.E in the hope that they have some replacements for my
model (as one failed, I shall replace both), so I await their reply
with crossed fingers.

Is this a 12 mm axle? If it is smaller in diameter you might want to ask
ICE about the possibility and costs for a replacement with 12mm. Thin
stub axles have a long history of failing, especially on dutch
velomobiles and trikes, so 12 mm has become a sort of standard for this
application.

I put a picture of the axles used on the current single letter models
here:
<http://de-rec-fahrrad.de/technik/sturmey_archer_trommelbremsnabe_fuer_dreiraeder>

Günther

Following on from Colin's message. . .

Quoted message said:

... my ride home could have gone a lot worse.

I bought an early model Trice back in August and have been having much

Quoted message said:

crossed fingers. For the metalurgists on U.R.C, I've put a picture of
the snapped axle on the web at http://preview.tinyurl.com/y8ou2n - I'm
curious about the line of bright metal in the center of the axle.

Interesting picture. A classic. Well worth posting.
(For future reference, it is useful to put something in the picture to
scale it, a coin for example.)

There appears to be a rusty 'old' crack at 6 o'clock which may be
irrelevant. It is VERY worrying that there are TWO cracks here. It
suggests some intrinsic problem rather than a rogue stress-raiser.

You are right to be concerned about the other axle as this could be due
to poor design, material or manufacturing (or use beyond intended
limits, or poor maintenance) which could affect:
(a) the other axle
(b) other axles in the same manufacturing batch
(c) all axles by this manufacturer/assembler
(d) all users relying on inappropriate assembly/maintenance
documentation (included in this case for completeness)
(e) all axles of this general design
(f) other 'mis-users' who don't realise they are pushing the vehicle
beyond its designed limits. (eg too heavy a rider).

Failures like this are, as you know, caused by cyclic load. Presumably
in this case one cycle per wheel revolution. The important calculation
to make is how many cycles have there been? If this was new in August
then there is no way this design is safe and ICE should be doing a
product recall. If it is less than 5 years old then (assuming a generic
problem which may be a bit hasty from a single photograph) ICE need to
take some general remedial action such as "replace your axle after 5000
miles for model XYZ" adverts in the cycling press.

As far as I know there is no official way to deal with this sort of
safety-related issue. It might be worth sending a pleasant email to
Cornwall Trading Standards suggesting they have a chat with ICE to
advise them on possible ways of dealing with what could be a fatal (to
the businesses reputation) issue if it develops further.

Conclusion
I am not a metallurgist, but I can see _two_ cracks. This makes me a
bit worried that this is an intrinsic problem not a one-off. Given the
safety-related nature of the failure it is important that (a) the full
scope of issue is determined and (b) properly addressed.

--
PETER FOX Not the same since the poster business went to the wall
[email hidden]
www.eminent.demon.co.uk - Lots for cyclists

"Peter Fox" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Failures like this are, as you know, caused by cyclic load. Presumably in
this case one cycle per wheel revolution. The important calculation to
make is how many cycles have there been? If this was new in August then
there is no way this design is safe and ICE should be doing a product
recall. If it is less than 5 years old then (assuming a generic problem
which may be a bit hasty from a single photograph) ICE need to take some
general remedial action such as "replace your axle after 5000 miles for
model XYZ" adverts in the cycling press.

If you look at pictures of the whole trike on the site, it's clear it's not
a new model and looks like one of the very early ones - indeed that it is
what it says on the site. Indeed it looks like a model from 1990'ish

In article said:

Following on from Colin's message. . .

Quoted message said:

I bought an early model Trice back in August and have been having much

[...]

Quoted message said:

in this case one cycle per wheel revolution. The important calculation
to make is how many cycles have there been? If this was new in August
then there is no way this design is safe and ICE should be doing a
product recall. If it is less than 5 years old

"early model Trice" could be up to twenty years old. He'd need to know
how far the previous owners rode it to have an idea of the number of
load cycles. Even an early ICE (rather than Peter Ross) model could be
more than five.

Following on from wafflycat's message. . .

Quoted message said:

If you look at pictures of the whole trike on the site, it's clear it's not
a new model and looks like one of the very early ones - indeed that it is
what it says on the site. Indeed it looks like a model from 1990'ish

Are you saying "That's only to be expected - older things break" or "No
need to worry - It's well known that modern designs are 'better' " or
what?

--
PETER FOX Not the same since the statuette business went bust
[email hidden]
www.eminent.demon.co.uk - Lots for cyclists

"Peter Fox" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Following on from wafflycat's message. . .

Quoted message said:

If you look at pictures of the whole trike on the site, it's clear it's
not
a new model and looks like one of the very early ones - indeed that it is
what it says on the site. Indeed it looks like a model from 1990'ish

Are you saying "That's only to be expected - older things break" or "No
need to worry - It's well known that modern designs are 'better' " or
what?

--
PETER FOX Not the same since the statuette business went bust
[email hidden]
www.eminent.demon.co.uk - Lots for cyclists

All she was saying is that it is an old model. Nothing else

Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire,
England, United Kingdom.

Peter Fox said:

Following on from wafflycat's message. . .

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you look at pictures of the whole trike on the site, it's clear it's not
a new model and looks like one of the very early ones - indeed that it is
what it says on the site. Indeed it looks like a model from 1990'ish

Quoted message said:

Are you saying "That's only to be expected - older things break" or "No
need to worry - It's well known that modern designs are 'better' " or
what?

It's a response to this part of your earlier post:

If this was new in August then there is no way this design is safe
and ICE should be doing a product recall.

waffles is simply pointing out that it is an old model.

Product recalls are a nightmare for old stuff. Unless you catch a
fault early it is virtually impossible to trace products down the
chain of ownership. It's hard enough to do for things like cars where
each change of keeper should be registered, let alone things like
bikes that can be bought and sold at will with no need to log who owns
them.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

"Peter Fox" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Are you saying "That's only to be expected - older things break" or "No
need to worry - It's well known that modern designs are 'better' " or
what?

None of the above.

I was actually responding to your comment about if it was a new model ICE
should be doing a product recall. Does your newsreader not show the entire
post? What I put was this:-

Quoted message said:

"Peter Fox" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Failures like this are, as you know, caused by cyclic load. Presumably
in this case one cycle per wheel revolution. The important calculation
to make is how many cycles have there been? If this was new in August
then there is no way this design is safe and ICE should be doing a
product recall. If it is less than 5 years old then (assuming a generic
problem which may be a bit hasty from a single photograph) ICE need to
take some general remedial action such as "replace your axle after 5000
miles for model XYZ" adverts in the cycling press.

If you look at pictures of the whole trike on the site, it's clear it's not
a new model and looks like one of the very early ones - indeed that it is
what it says on the site. Indeed it looks like a model from 1990'ish

So I would have thought it was fairly clear as to what I was referring to.

"Pinky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

All she was saying is that it is an old model. Nothing else

Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire,
England, United Kingdom.

Well I'm glad Phil & you understood what I was referring to :-)

"Phil Cook" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

<snip><snip>

Quoted message said:

waffles is simply pointing out that it is an old model.

Product recalls are a nightmare for old stuff. Unless you catch a
fault early it is virtually impossible to trace products down the
chain of ownership. It's hard enough to do for things like cars where
each change of keeper should be registered, let alone things like
bikes that can be bought and sold at will with no need to log who owns
them.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

Interestingly Phil, both my bikes now have a log book since they are both
registered with "bikeregister.com"
It get me 10% off my bike insurance and a hidden transponder in the innards
of my bikes. So if I sell either bike I have to tell them the new owner.
After that it is no longer registered to me but the new owner need to pay a
"one of" fee of , I think, £10. It cost me £20 to register ( also a one
time payment and I think it is money well spent.

--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire,
England, United Kingdom.
www.tapan.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

Peter Fox said:

As far as I know there is no official way to deal with this sort of
safety-related issue. It might be worth sending a pleasant email to
Cornwall Trading Standards suggesting they have a chat with ICE to
advise them on possible ways of dealing with what could be a fatal (to
the businesses reputation) issue if it develops further.

Dealing with the makers may not get you very far.

I found a critical design flaw in the Raptor trike: The brake torque
was entirely taken bu a #10 machine screw about 3/4" from the wheel
axle. We found this out when a ten-year-old going along the pavement
braked, the bolt sheared, he was catapulted forward out of the seat.
Fortunately there were only minor scrapes to both him and the trike.
The bolt shearing is most likely to happen when braking hard, and the
triple danger of

a) loss of braking
b) loss of steering
c) rider projection into the path of the object which said braking was
to avoid

was most worrying.

The fix for this flaw was quite simple and cheap - sections of 1/8" x
1 1/2" aluminium running from the lower mounting point to a point near
the handle end of the steering bars took the torque; a 1-hour job to
manufacture and retrofit.

I emailed the makers and their response was essentially "we don't
think it's a problem". This is not encouraging - especually as they
are in the United States, where litigation both frivolous and sincere
is a national pastime, and one would think they might be somewhat more
concerned.

Colin said:

... my ride home could have gone a lot worse.

I've emailed I.C.E in the hope that they have some replacements for my
model (as one failed, I shall replace both), so I await their reply with
crossed fingers. For the metalurgists on U.R.C, I've put a picture of
the snapped axle on the web at http://preview.tinyurl.com/y8ou2n - I'm
curious about the line of bright metal in the center of the axle.

Can't help with the axle, but if ICE can't help with the chain pulleys
(I think they now use a teflon tube for the chain), you might be able
to adapt something from a windcheetah. Looking at their site there is
40, 48 and 70mm nylon pulleys (http://www.windcheetah.co.uk/parts.htm)

Tim.

In news:[email hidden],
Alan Braggins <[email hidden]> tweaked the Babbage-Engine to
tell us:

Quoted message said:

In article said:

Following on from Colin's message. . .

Quoted message said:

I bought an early model Trice back in August and have been having
much

[...]

Quoted message said:

in this case one cycle per wheel revolution. The important
calculation to make is how many cycles have there been? If this was
new in August then there is no way this design is safe and ICE
should be doing a product recall. If it is less than 5 years old

"early model Trice" could be up to twenty years old. He'd need to know
how far the previous owners rode it to have an idea of the number of
load cycles. Even an early ICE (rather than Peter Ross) model could be
more than five.

(Squints at pictures)

Deffo a pre-ICE model, by some distance. And the seat puts it at pre-1993.

--
Dave Larrington
<http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk>
World Domination? Just find a world that's into that kind of
thing, then chain to the floor and walk up and down on it in
high heels.

Dave Larrington said:

In news:[email hidden],
Alan Braggins <[email hidden]> tweaked the Babbage-Engine to
tell us:

Quoted message said:

In article said:

Following on from Colin's message. . .

>I bought an early model Trice back in August and have been having
>much

[...]

Quoted message said:

in this case one cycle per wheel revolution. The important
calculation to make is how many cycles have there been? If this was
new in August then there is no way this design is safe and ICE
should be doing a product recall. If it is less than 5 years old

"early model Trice" could be up to twenty years old. He'd need to know
how far the previous owners rode it to have an idea of the number of
load cycles. Even an early ICE (rather than Peter Ross) model could be
more than five.

(Squints at pictures)

Deffo a pre-ICE model, by some distance. And the seat puts it at pre-1993.

I agree, pre-ICE and known for a host of problems

As far as I can tell this is a very old trike and was almost certainly NOT
made by ICE. I own the 9th trike ICE made back in 1999, which I believe
was their first year, and its well made and unlikely to fail. Any problems
have been well and fairly addressed by the current ICE people, Chris and
Neil, even though I purchased it s/h.
Why is the world so willing to give somebody a hard time even before the
full facts are known? I despair at the "litigation mad" society we live in
today. If its old and it breaks........just bloody fix it!!

SW

"Peter Fox" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Following on from Colin's message. . .

Quoted message said:

... my ride home could have gone a lot worse.

I bought an early model Trice back in August and have been having much

Quoted message said:

crossed fingers. For the metalurgists on U.R.C, I've put a picture of
the snapped axle on the web at http://preview.tinyurl.com/y8ou2n - I'm
curious about the line of bright metal in the center of the axle.

Interesting picture. A classic. Well worth posting.
(For future reference, it is useful to put something in the picture to
scale it, a coin for example.)

There appears to be a rusty 'old' crack at 6 o'clock which may be
irrelevant. It is VERY worrying that there are TWO cracks here. It
suggests some intrinsic problem rather than a rogue stress-raiser.

You are right to be concerned about the other axle as this could be due to
poor design, material or manufacturing (or use beyond intended limits, or
poor maintenance) which could affect:
(a) the other axle
(b) other axles in the same manufacturing batch
(c) all axles by this manufacturer/assembler
(d) all users relying on inappropriate assembly/maintenance documentation
(included in this case for completeness)
(e) all axles of this general design
(f) other 'mis-users' who don't realise they are pushing the vehicle
beyond its designed limits. (eg too heavy a rider).

Failures like this are, as you know, caused by cyclic load. Presumably in
this case one cycle per wheel revolution. The important calculation to
make is how many cycles have there been? If this was new in August then
there is no way this design is safe and ICE should be doing a product
recall. If it is less than 5 years old then (assuming a generic problem
which may be a bit hasty from a single photograph) ICE need to take some
general remedial action such as "replace your axle after 5000 miles for
model XYZ" adverts in the cycling press.

As far as I know there is no official way to deal with this sort of
safety-related issue. It might be worth sending a pleasant email to
Cornwall Trading Standards suggesting they have a chat with ICE to advise
them on possible ways of dealing with what could be a fatal (to the
businesses reputation) issue if it develops further.

Conclusion
I am not a metallurgist, but I can see _two_ cracks. This makes me a bit
worried that this is an intrinsic problem not a one-off. Given the
safety-related nature of the failure it is important that (a) the full
scope of issue is determined and (b) properly addressed.

--
PETER FOX Not the same since the poster business went to the wall
[email hidden]
www.eminent.demon.co.uk - Lots for cyclists

(Not sure if this got through on my last post - apologies if this
appears twice)

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

... my ride home could have gone a lot worse.

<snip>
Ok, I've had chance to read all your helpful replies, thank you for them
for them all.

Apologies if I did not make it clear in my first post that this is an
old-model (1990-1993 is my best guess) Trice, bought off Ebay with an
unknown number of previous owners and unknown history.

Rob Morley asked about the orientation of the fracture and whether the
bearings were clamped tight to the shoulder on the spindle...

The orientation of the fracture shown runs from the 7 o-clock to 1 o-
clock postition looking end-on to the axle. The bearings were not
clamped tight to the shoulder - tightening the nut on the end of the
axle beyond a certain point caused the bearings to tighten beyond
usability.

Günther Schwarz asked if this was a 12mm axle - The answer is it's a 10
mm axle, and not like the one that he linked to. Pictures of the entire
axle can be found at
http://www.spiralpathways.co.uk/Cycling/my_bikes/Trice/Yikes.asp#additio
nal (tiny url http://preview.tinyurl.com/y8ou2n) - with a tape measure
in shot this time to give scale :-)

I'd also like to make it clear that I'm not blaming I.C.E for any of
this. Every product has a design & improvement process, and I recognise
that this early model may well have inherent flaws or specifications
that have been fixed/improved in later models. However, If I could have
afforded a newer model I'd have bought one - as I could not, I have got
into recumbent triking in a manner that matches my budget, and I've been
happy with it so far. Everyone expects to upgrade / replace components
on older bikes as they wear, and I don't see this as anything different.

Finally, I really must get my trike fixed as soon as possible - riding
an upright is taking it's toll on my bum, and it feels so precarious
perched up so high! At least I'm remembering to put my foot down when I
stop at junctions.

--
Colin

Coincidence is the alibi of the Gods

(remove FOOT to reply)

Good man, I hope you get it fixed and get back to comfortable cycling!
I was not "getting" at you, you seem to have a healthy attitude towards old
but fun bits of machinary.
I'm sure some of the advice given by others will be helpfull in sorting out
the repair.
Good luck.

SW

I'd also like to make it clear that I'm not blaming I.C.E for any of
this. Every product has a design & improvement process, and I recognise
that this early model may well have inherent flaws or specifications
that have been fixed/improved in later models. However, If I could have
afforded a newer model I'd have bought one - as I could not, I have got
into recumbent triking in a manner that matches my budget, and I've been
happy with it so far. Everyone expects to upgrade / replace components
on older bikes as they wear, and I don't see this as anything different.

)