Old hub, need new screw-on cluster

naevus said:

Hi hi,
Just been down to BSC in Fitzroy (Melbourne) where I was told my best bet would be to search eBay for a 'new' cluster.

I have a very old Campy groupset (unnamed I suppose because it's probably bottom of the range), and a Mavic rear hub that takes a screw on cluster. The cluster is worn, very worn, and I need a new one. However I'm poor and a student and don't want to upgrade to a new wheel+groupset.

I can't get a MTB cluster as the derailleur won't accommodate it, so I need to find a road cluster, 6 or 7 speed. Currently I have a 6-speed straight block (13-18 teeth), but could do with a 7-speed and a slightly more hill-friendly set of gears. The derailleur should be able to handle 7-speed I think.

Any ideas where to look / ask? Anyone still have one they don't need?

Cheers
ben

eBay is a good place for NOS New Old Stock 6 or 7 Speed Freewheels.
I see them there for around $15 and up.
Likely the most difficult thing is to remove the old one. Get a clean tool that fits perfectly or have it done by an experienced person. I am just relating my experiences, so don't get scared off.

daveornee said:

NOS New Old Stock 6 or 7 Speed Freewheels

Excellent, thanks!

You know, sometimes 80% of the solution is simply knowing the right jargon. Now at least I know to look and ask for NOS.

Next question, how will I know if my existing derailleur will handle a sprocket of 28 teeth?
It's an old Campag road derailleur that was built for a 6-speed that in my case was 13-18 teeth. Will it have enough travel for the larger teeth? What would be the largest it could handle?

naevus said:

Next question, how will I know if my existing derailleur will handle a sprocket of 28 teeth?
It's an old Campag road derailleur that was built for a 6-speed that in my case was 13-18 teeth. Will it have enough travel for the larger teeth? What would be the largest it could handle?

Most of the older Campagnolo rear derailleurs were only spec'd to handle a 26t rear cog ...

If you've got a really LONG "touring" derailleur hanger on your frame, you might be able to have marginal success with a 28t, but the odds are that the derailleur's pulley wheel will be grinding against the 28t cog. I happened to use a 13-28 SunRace with a Nuovo Record rear derailleur on a Peugeot which had a VERY LONG hanger ... it was "okay" once I got the chain onto the cog, but it meant shifting onto the largest cog when the chain was on the larger chainring to pull the derailleur's cage forward to thus get the pulley wheel slightly lower during the shift ... I only used the combination for one ride & subsequently switched rear derailleurs to use with the particular freewheel.

So, you'll probably want to look for a 13-26 freewheel.

SunRace (the resurrected SunTour) makes 7-speed freewheels which are spaced for Shimano 7-speed indexed shifters ... basically, the same cog spacing as 8-speed Shimano & Campagnolo indexing (close enough) ... the SunRace cogs are ramped & should fit your current wheel without modifcation (i.e., re-dishing).

BTW. If your current freewheel is impossible to remove with a tool (or, you don't want to waste the money buying a freewheel removal tool for a "dead" freewheel), then you can grind (!?!) off the smallest cog using a hand grinder (with 4-to-4.5" wheel) ... the rest of the cogs will slide off, and then you can use a pipe wrench to remove the freewheel body (do this while it is still warm ... but, don't touch the "warm" freewheel body with your bare hands) ... using a hand grinder is crude, but effective.

naevus said:

Any ideas where to look / ask? Anyone still have one they don't need?

Cheers
ben

Nashbar has 7-speed 13-24 clusters for about $19 US. That's about 18 loonies, now, eh?

And Park makes removal tools for most of the old popular freewheels. Excelsports.com seems to have the most in stock, but I think you can also buy direct from Park.

naevus said:

Hi hi,
Just been down to BSC in Fitzroy (Melbourne) where I was told my best bet would be to search eBay for a 'new' cluster.

I have a very old Campy groupset (unnamed I suppose because it's probably bottom of the range), and a Mavic rear hub that takes a screw on cluster. The cluster is worn, very worn, and I need a new one. However I'm poor and a student and don't want to upgrade to a new wheel+groupset.

I can't get a MTB cluster as the derailleur won't accommodate it, so I need to find a road cluster, 6 or 7 speed. Currently I have a 6-speed straight block (13-18 teeth), but could do with a 7-speed and a slightly more hill-friendly set of gears. The derailleur should be able to handle 7-speed I think.

Any ideas where to look / ask? Anyone still have one they don't need?

Cheers
ben

Many on ebay and we sell new ones from IRD, shimano and Sunrace. Prices range from $25 to lots for NOS DuraAce, with IRD at about $50. Shipping is about $15 down under if you can't find something locally.

naevus said:

Next question, how will I know if my existing derailleur will handle a sprocket of 28 teeth?
It's an old Campag road derailleur that was built for a 6-speed that in my case was 13-18 teeth. Will it have enough travel for the larger teeth? What would be the largest it could handle?

Older RD will handle 28t. You may need to either pull the wheel all the way back into the dropouts, assuming they are horizontal or perhaps take a link outta the new chain(new chain highly recommended) to prevent pulley to biggest cog interference. But I have 13/14-28 onto older Campag setups all the time.

Great thanks for those Peter!
I've found a LBS (Abbotsford Cycles if anyone else needs one) with some Shimano clusters, so I'll try them, and hopefully the RD will be macho enough to take the 28 tooth sprocket.
Ben

Yes, there are loads on ebay - 5, 6, 7 and 8 speed are all available in the UK

For anyone who's interested I've found out some info today...
First up is that someone recognised my old Campag groupset! It's an early-mid 80s Campagnolo Victory set. I used to have matching hubs as well, but that was when I didn't know much about them (i.e. I didn't know you could get replacement cups+cones) and they went to the bike store that sold me my newer Mavics.
So I still have the brakes, levers+hoods, front+rear derailleur, shifters, crankset (42/52 chainrings), quick-releases, and somewhere the toe-clips+pedals.

Secondly, the Shimano 14-28t 7-speed freewheel I bought today doesn't play so well with the campag RD, which is partly due to the drop-outs I suppose. I've thrown an old Shimano 600 RD on there to see if that will play nicely, but it's pretty crappy, a bit bent, and maybe can't handle the newer cluster. Back to the shops this weekend to try another one until I get it right.

Anyone know what I might be able to do with the campag RD to get it to take the new freewheel, mostly the largest cog?

Finally I'm considering running two freewheel/chain set-ups: one for regular road riding (maybe 11-24t), and another for very hilly rides (14-28t). Anyone bother doing this themselves?

ben

naevus said:

For anyone who's interested I've found out some info today...
First up is that someone recognised my old Campag groupset! It's an early-mid 80s Campagnolo Victory set. I used to have matching hubs as well, but that was when I didn't know much about them (i.e. I didn't know you could get replacement cups+cones) and they went to the bike store that sold me my newer Mavics.

Secondly, the Shimano 14-28t 7-speed freewheel I bought today doesn't play so well with the campag RD, which is partly due to the drop-outs I suppose. I've thrown an old Shimano 600 RD on there to see if that will play nicely, but it's pretty crappy, a bit bent, and maybe can't handle the newer cluster. Back to the shops this weekend to try another one until I get it right.

FWIW/FYI. The cups & cones were probably NOT worn out ... your old wheels may have simply needed to have the old grease "flushed" out, the bearings repacked with fresh grease, and the cones adjusted OR new bearings + fresh grease, etc. This is DIY maintenance ...

Too bad the shop didn't tell you that ...

Next time, you may want to sell your old parts on eBay rather than giving them to the shop.

BTW. You won't be able to find an 11-24 freewheel (Shimano does have ONE exotic hub/freewheel combination which has smaller cogs) ... 13t is usually the smallest small cog on a freewheel. I don't know what your shop charged you for the old Shimano freewheel, but a SunRace will probably set you back only about $20 AND frequently have a 13t smallest cog ... 13-28 is better than 14-28, IMO. Equally, 13-26 is better than 14-26.

Maybe the shop will take the 14-28 freewheel back & refund the cost or give you a store credit for another freewheel-or-whatever.

Before you buy another freewheel, you may want to look for a Shimano LX rear derailleur ... probably about $30 if you shop around. Shimano Deore & Acera are certainly okay, but the few extra dollars for the LX are probably worth it in the long run. Anything less in the Shimano line-up should generally be ignored.

Also, before you buy another freewheel, you may want to consider having a Shimano freehub laced to your rim (you can do this yoursefl!) ... and then, you can use the commonly available cassettes. You can, if you choose, respace the rear triangle to 130mm without too much effort OR continue to leave it at 126mm. The least expensive Shimano freehub is almost as good as the most expensive -- finish & adjustment at the factory are the biggest real-world difference (NB. The most expensive Shimano hubs do have better bearings & factory polished races, but why spend more if you can't truly afford it?).

There really isn't too much reason, IMO, to have a different freewheel with a tighter stack than the 14-28, or whatever you end up with on your bike.

alfeng said:

FWIW/FYI. The cups & cones were probably NOT worn out ... your old wheels may have simply needed to have the old grease "flushed" out, the bearings repacked with fresh grease, and the cones adjusted OR new bearings + fresh grease, etc. This is DIY maintenance ...

Yah, that was what I used to do, because you could do it with the old hubs! I only looked for another pair of hubs when the pitting had got a bit beyond even tight-fisted me.

alfeng said:

BTW. You won't be able to find an 11-24 freewheel (Shimano does have ONE exotic hub/freewheel combination which has smaller cogs) ... 13t is usually the smallest small cog on a freewheel. I don't know what your shop charged you for the old Shimano freewheel, but a SunRace will probably set you back only about $20 AND frequently have a 13t smallest cog ... 13-28 is better than 14-28, IMO. Equally, 13-26 is better than 14-26.

Is that US$20? I got one for AUD30, which I think is alright for here. You're right though, I would prefer a 13t to a 14t. It's a bit too late to take the freewheel back, plus I think SunRace are a little harder to get here in Oz - I haven't had any joy finding any yet. I'll keep a look out for them for next time.

Quoted post said:

Before you buy another freewheel, you may want to look for a Shimano LX rear derailleur ... probably about $30 if you shop around. Shimano Deore & Acera are certainly okay, but the few extra dollars for the LX are probably worth it in the long run. Anything less in the Shimano line-up should generally be ignored.

After trying a crappy and slightly bent Shimano 600 which just didn't work, I went back to my semi-local bike store where they took a 105 road derailleur off an old bike and gave it to me. It seems so far to be alright with the 14-28. I don't where in their range the 105 sits.

Quoted post said:

Also, before you buy another freewheel, you may want to consider having a Shimano freehub laced to your rim (you can do this yoursefl!) ... and then, you can use the commonly available cassettes. You can, if you choose, respace the rear triangle to 130mm without too much effort OR continue to leave it at 126mm. The least expensive Shimano freehub is almost as good as the most expensive -- finish & adjustment at the factory are the biggest real-world difference (NB. The most expensive Shimano hubs do have better bearings & factory polished races, but why spend more if you can't truly afford it?).

Or only ride twice a week? I built a wheel once, but didn't quite have the gift of being able to true it. I ended up taking it back to the LBS to do it for me.

Quoted post said:

There really isn't too much reason, IMO, to have a different freewheel with a tighter stack than the 14-28, or whatever you end up with on your bike.

I think I can do without the 28t most of the time (I've ridden with a 13-18 for a long time), but in 6 weeks I'm in a hill climb race and need the biggest cog i can get!

Thanks for the detailed reply! All the info is greatly appreciated.
Ben

naevus said:

Is that US$20? I got one for AUD30, which I think is alright for here. You're right though, I would prefer a 13t to a 14t. It's a bit too late to take the freewheel back, plus I think SunRace are a little harder to get here in Oz - I haven't had any joy finding any yet. I'll keep a look out for them for next time.

That was $20US (import duties are probably a greater factor than exchange rates) ... figure that would be the mail order (actually, a little lower -- I think I paid about $18 (+ shipping) for one about 8 years ago ... subsequently, I recall seeing the 7-speed SunRace freewheel on eBay for about $14US (+ shipping) at some point in time ... of course, the walk-in price might be a little higher. Regardless, they really should be universally available since SunRace (presuming they are still operating) is a Taiwan-based corporation.

naevus said:

After trying a crappy and slightly bent Shimano 600 which just didn't work, I went back to my semi-local bike store where they took a 105 road derailleur off an old bike and gave it to me. It seems so far to be alright with the 14-28. I don't where in their range the 105 sits.

The 105 component group is just below the 600 (the current Ultegra) -- I think the "original" 105 was a early-/mid-80s 6-or-7-speed group -- BOTH the 6-or-7-speed AND 8-speed Shimano ROAD rear derailleurs should actually be able to handle a 30t rear cog without any problem.

The fact that your shop gave you the old rear derailleur certainly offsets the any premium you may (or, may not) have paid for their NOS Shimano freewheel which was otherwise gathering dust in their display case or on a backroom shelf.

naevus said:

Or only ride twice a week? I built a wheel once, but didn't quite have the gift of being able to true it. I ended up taking it back to the LBS to do it for me.

Without outside assistance (in-person or written), most people have some trouble with their first rear wheel ...

Generally speaking, putting a new fw on an old bike risks having the chain be too wide to actually fit on the rear cogs. I had to get a narrower chain for my old Schwinn; thankfully it fit the front rings and I did not have to change those.