Old Campy single pivots

Hi,

I've got campy single pivots of the same era (1980something, pre delta record) and although you have to apply more force to stop, I like the way they very smoothly slow down your bike. Hardly any chance to lock up your wheel. I recently got a new bike with dual pivot campy centaur brakes: excellent stopping power, but much more difficult to 'tune' your braking. A compromise between the two systems would be ideal.

Greetz,

Niek

Suzy Jackson said:

It's a lot of fun. 7 speed 13-21 cassette, downtube shifters, and good old trusty Campy Athena
single pivot brakes (circa 1987).

Now I rode with these brakes for close to ten years before upgrading a couple of years ago, and
never would have said they were great, but then I'd not have bagged them either. However now,
after getting used to my nice Chorus dual pivots, I'm amazed how I survived so long with these
brakes. They're deadly!

I just retired my old single-pivots (these were the originals, from the late '60s, and no, they
aren't for sale). I had been using them on my fixed gear, but found a pair of Chorus dual-pivots at
a swap meet and now these await my great restoration project.

But they aren't to blame here. The issue is lever pull -vs- pad travel, pure and simple. The
dual-pivots require more cable-pull for a given amount of pad motion. So, a given cable pull exerts
more pressure on the pad, and so the same finger pressure exerts more pad pressure.

But the same thing could be arranged by changing the levers as changing the calipers. More
mechanical advantage, stronger braking.

The downside of this "improvement" is that you have to adjust the brakes so that the pads are a lot
closer to the rim than in the old days. We could sometimes ride home with a broken spoke, and maybe
not even notice it, since we had between 1/8" and 1/4" of pad clearance. No longer. Now you need
true rims. Good thing spokes are better now.

For me, the big advantage of dual pivots is that they don't get out-of-kilter and drag a pad on the
rim. The old Campy sidepulls were better in avoiding this than what came before, but still would
rotate on you. Dual pivots adjust with an allen key, and stay there. They're prettier, too.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | You will say Christ saith this and the apostles say this; but _`\(,_ | what canst thou say?
-- George Fox. (_)/ (_) |

Suzy Jackson said:

Now I rode with these brakes for close to ten years before upgrading a couple of years ago, and
never would have said they were great, but then I'd not have bagged them either. However now, after
getting used to my nice Chorus dual pivots, I'm amazed how I survived so long with these brakes.
They're deadly! In order to get them to slow the bike, you have to apply an amazing amount of force
at the lever. I nearly mowed down a pedestrian today on the way home, because I didn't yank hard
enough on the lever.

Check out the brake pads. They're hard as a rock. Replace them with nice new pads (which are pretty
pricey, BTW), and you'll be amazed at how wonderful those stinky Athena brakes become!

There IS a difference in mechanical advantage with a dual pivot though
- so it will always take a bit more pull to stop with the single pivot brakes... but I like the
extra pad to rim clearance they give me, and don't really need to extra umph anyway.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $695 ti frame

nferyn said:

I've got campy single pivots of the same era (1980something, pre delta record) and although you
have to apply more force to stop, I like the way they very smoothly slow down your bike. Hardly
any chance to lock up your wheel. I recently got a new bike with dual pivot campy centaur brakes:
excellent stopping power, but much more difficult to 'tune' your braking. A compromise between the
two systems would be ideal.

There is an ideal compromise, and I use it. It's very simple: DP front, SP rear. The posh option is
Campagnolo Chorus/Record "Differential" brakes, cheapo option is to use existing front DP brake and
find an old used SP caliper.

~PB

Quoted message said:

From: nferyn

Quoted message said:

...Hardly any chance to lock up...

I recently got a new bike with dual pivot campy centaur brakes: excellent stopping power, but much
more difficult to 'tune'...

Just increase the distance from pad to rim incrementally until you get the feel you're looking for.
Your choice of pad will also affect braking pressure.

Sig Chicago

Quoted message said:

From: Mark Hickey

Quoted message said:

Suzy Jackson said:

Now I rode with these brakes for close to ten years before upgrading a couple of years ago, and
never would have said they were great, but then I'd not have bagged them either. However now,
after getting used to my nice Chorus dual pivots, I'm amazed how I survived so long with these
brakes. They're deadly! In order to get them to slow the bike, you have to apply an amazing amount
of force at the lever. I nearly mowed down a pedestrian today on the way home, because I didn't
yank hard enough on the lever.

(M.H. replied):

Quoted message said:

Check out the brake pads. They're hard as a rock. Replace them with nice new pads (which are pretty
pricey, BTW), and you'll be amazed at how wonderful those stinky Athena brakes become!

Maybe something like this, "orbital" holders:

/harris/brakeshoes.html#threaded"]http:[email hidden]/harris/brakeshoes.html#threaded

"Non-abusive toe-in capability", black pads are available too, I believe. --Tom Paterson

"David L. Johnson >" <David L. Johnson <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Suzy Jackson said:

It's a lot of fun. 7 speed 13-21 cassette, downtube shifters, and

good

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

old trusty Campy Athena single pivot brakes (circa 1987).

Now I rode with these brakes for close to ten years before upgrading

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

couple of years ago, and never would have said they were great, but

then

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd not have bagged them either. However now, after getting used to

my

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

nice Chorus dual pivots, I'm amazed how I survived so long with

these

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

brakes. They're deadly!

I just retired my old single-pivots (these were the originals, from

the

Quoted message said:

late '60s, and no, they aren't for sale). I had been using them on my fixed gear, but found a pair
of Chorus dual-pivots at a swap meet and

now

Quoted message said:

these await my great restoration project.

But they aren't to blame here. The issue is lever pull -vs- pad

travel,

Quoted message said:

pure and simple. The dual-pivots require more cable-pull for a given amount of pad motion. So, a
given cable pull exerts more pressure on

the

Quoted message said:

pad, and so the same finger pressure exerts more pad pressure.

But the same thing could be arranged by changing the levers as

changing

Quoted message said:

the calipers. More mechanical advantage, stronger braking.

The downside of this "improvement" is that you have to adjust the

brakes

Quoted message said:

so that the pads are a lot closer to the rim than in the old days. We could sometimes ride home
with a broken spoke, and maybe not even

notice

Quoted message said:

it, since we had between 1/8" and 1/4" of pad clearance. No longer.

Now

Quoted message said:

you need true rims. Good thing spokes are better now.

For me, the big advantage of dual pivots is that they don't get out-of-kilter and drag a pad on
the rim. The old Campy sidepulls were better in avoiding this than what came before, but still
would rotate

on

Quoted message said:

you. Dual pivots adjust with an allen key, and stay there. They're prettier, too.

Do you really need to use the allen key? I just rotate the calliper by hand, and it seems to stay
put. I like the dual pivots better than my Campy NRs, but then again, whenever I use the NRs, I use
them with STI levers so its not quite an apples-to-apples comparison. Even if I went back to DT
shifting, I would never resurrect my NR levers because I cannot afford to buy the wildly expensive
gum hoods. Even when the NRs were "current production," the gum hoods were expensive -- and they
didn't last that long. -- Jay Beattie.

Jay Beattie said:

Do you really need to use the allen key? I just rotate the calliper by hand, and it seems to
stay put.

Depends how tight the bolt is and how close you like the pads. The allen key (centering adjuster) is
needed for _fine_ adjustment if the main bolt is properly tight.

I used to just rotate by hand but found the caliper eventually worked loose because I wasn't doing
up the bolt enough.

~PB

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Suzy Jackson said:

Now I rode with these brakes for close to ten years before upgrading a couple of years ago, and
never would have said they were great, but then

I'd

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not have bagged them either. However now, after getting used to my nice Chorus dual pivots, I'm
amazed how I survived so long with these brakes. They're deadly! In order to get them to slow the
bike, you have to apply

an

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

amazing amount of force at the lever. I nearly mowed down a pedestrian today on the way home,
because I didn't yank hard enough on the lever.

Check out the brake pads. They're hard as a rock. Replace them with nice new pads (which are
pretty pricey, BTW), and you'll be amazed at how wonderful those stinky Athena brakes become!

There IS a difference in mechanical advantage with a dual pivot though
- so it will always take a bit more pull to stop with the single pivot brakes... but I like the
extra pad to rim clearance they give me, and don't really need to extra umph anyway.

They originals can be expensive but you'll get better braking with the Kool Stop copies. These
blocks are black, fit perfectly and have raised letters with the "Kool Stop" name. A quick pass with
a razor blade and you'd have a hard time telling them from the originals - until you apply the
brakes and notice they stop better! Four for $20, or about the same as any other KS pad.

--
Andrew Muzi yellowjersey.orgyellowjersey.orgOpen ↗ Open every day since 1 April 1971

Mark Hickey <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Suzy Jackson said:

Now I rode with these brakes for close to ten years before upgrading a couple of years ago... I'm
amazed how I survived so long with these brakes. They're deadly! In order to get them to slow the
bike, you have to apply an amazing amount of force at the lever. I nearly mowed down a pedestrian
today on the way home, because I didn't yank hard enough on the lever.

Check out the brake pads. They're hard as a rock. Replace them with nice new pads (which are
pretty pricey, BTW), and you'll be amazed at how wonderful those stinky Athena brakes become!

There IS a difference in mechanical advantage with a dual pivot though
- so it will always take a bit more pull to stop with the single pivot brakes... but I like the
extra pad to rim clearance they give me, and don't really need to extra umph anyway.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $695 ti frame

As Mark says, improvements can be made with new brake pads, the Kool Stop salmon colored pads often
being noted as the best and least likely to get aluminum bits embeded which grind up your rims in
short order. Also, Sheldon Brown has a nice web page on improvements in braking via high quality
slick cables and proper installation sheldonbrown.orgcables.htmlOpen ↗ , and he discusses how
the aero style brake levers can give more responsive braking from the top of the hoods. More
discussion on the characteristics of different types of brakes can be found at
draco.acs.uci.edu8f.15.htmlOpen ↗

The mechanical advantage of dual pivot vs. single pivot will make a difference in the amount of
lever pressure needed, all things being equal, but to say that a single pivot Campy brake is
"deadly" leads me to question how well your brakes are set up or if you have especially weak hands.
I've never had any problems braking up to the limit imposed by going over the handlebars. This is
with 22 year old Campy Record brakes, at times with a loaded touring bike weighing 40 kg (90 lbs,
tent and cooking kit included). This includes mountain descents in the French and Swiss Alps in the
rain, though not in as steep terrain as Jobst does on some of his tours.

Bill Putnam

Quoted message said:

There IS a difference in mechanical advantage with a dual pivot though
- so it will always take a bit more pull to stop with the single pivot brakes... but I like the
extra pad to rim clearance they give me, and don't really need to extra umph anyway.

According to Jobst its about 40%, definitely noticeable. Of course if you're a flatlander then well,
probably doesn't matter.

Personally I like Dual Pivot brakes, though I go for the original Shimano brakes, never tried the
Campy clones. I have some bikes with Single Pivot, include some similar to what Suzy describes, yeah
they work but I don't trust em on a steep downhill in the rain.

I think the real issue is that single pivot brakes were designed at a time when people rode in the
drops much of the time. Now people seem to ride on the hoods and dual pivots are better for braking
from the hoods because your hand leverage is worse than from the drops.

jon isaacs

In article <[email hidden]>, Bill Putnam

Quoted message said:

As Mark says, improvements can be made with new brake pads, the Kool Stop salmon colored pads often
being noted as the best and least likely to get aluminum bits embeded which grind up your rims in
short order.

I think Salmon pads are great but I suspect black pads would be more likely to deliver the brake
feel that the original poster was looking for as they are softer. (That and adding some slop in
the cable.)

I suspect the original pads are adjusted "too well" (too tightly) and the pad material has hardened.

--Paul

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Suzy Jackson said:

Now I rode with these brakes for close to ten years before upgrading a couple of years ago, and
never would have said they were great, but then

I'd

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not have bagged them either. However now, after getting used to my nice Chorus dual pivots, I'm
amazed how I survived so long with these brakes. They're deadly! In order to get them to slow
the bike, you have to apply

an

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

amazing amount of force at the lever. I nearly mowed down a pedestrian today on the way home,
because I didn't yank hard enough on the lever.

Check out the brake pads. They're hard as a rock. Replace them with nice new pads (which are
pretty pricey, BTW), and you'll be amazed at how wonderful those stinky Athena brakes become!

There IS a difference in mechanical advantage with a dual pivot though
- so it will always take a bit more pull to stop with the single pivot brakes... but I like the
extra pad to rim clearance they give me, and don't really need to extra umph anyway.

They originals can be expensive but you'll get better braking with the Kool Stop copies. These
blocks are black, fit perfectly and have raised letters with the "Kool Stop" name. A quick pass
with a razor blade and you'd have a hard time telling them from the originals - until you apply
the brakes and notice they stop better! Four for $20, or about the same as any other KS pad.

Similarly others here have stated that the "better" replacement pad for CAmpy single pivot brakes
are the Kool Stop Salmon colored Continental pads, like the ones here:
sheldonbrown.combrakeshoes.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

They originals can be expensive but you'll get better braking with the Kool Stop copies. These
blocks are black, fit perfectly and have raised letters with the "Kool Stop" name. A quick pass
with a razor blade and you'd have a hard time telling them from the originals - until you apply
the brakes and notice they stop better! Four for $20, or about the same as any other KS pad.

I can attest to that advice; I just put on a set of koolstops on my Record differential brakes last
week, and they're night & day compared with the OEM pads. Great stopping power, and great control.

Jay Beattie said:

Quoted message said:

you. Dual pivots adjust with an allen key, and stay there. They're prettier, too.

Do you really need to use the allen key? I just rotate the calliper by hand, and it seems to
stay put.

Like someone else said, the allen key is just for fine adjustment. I get the caliper on tight, close
to the right adjustment, then use the allen key to fine-tune.

Quoted message said:

I like the dual pivots better than my Campy NRs, but then again, whenever I use the NRs, I use
them with STI levers so its not quite an apples-to-apples comparison.

They would be better with the old Campy levers.

Even if I went

Quoted message said:

back to DT shifting, I would never resurrect my NR levers because I cannot afford to buy the
wildly expensive gum hoods. Even when the NRs were "current production," the gum hoods were
expensive -- and they didn't last that long.

Yeah, I remember being shocked at the price when I had to replace them once. The new hoods sure last
a lot longer.

You can get generic gum hoods, but usually they are very expensive, or already rotten.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored _`\(,_ | by little
statesmen and philosophers and divines." --Ralph Waldo (_)/ (_) | Emerson

"David L. Johnson >" <David L. Johnson <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 04 Feb 2003 11:12:21 -0500, Jay Beattie wrote:

Quoted message said:

Even if I went

Quoted message said:

back to DT shifting, I would never resurrect my NR

levers because I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cannot afford to buy the wildly expensive gum hoods.

Even when the NRs

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

were "current production," the gum hoods were

expensive -- and they

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

didn't last that long.

Yeah, I remember being shocked at the price when I had to

replace them

Quoted message said:

once. The new hoods sure last a lot longer.

You can get generic gum hoods, but usually they are very

expensive, or

Quoted message said:

already rotten.

I believe there are reproductions around, but they're still made of gum rubber. I can't understand
why someone doesn't just make these in urethane, which is cheaper to make in small volumes, and
lasts practically forever. I guess the retro-geeks want the "real" thing, and everyone else just
buys new brake sets.

Matt O.

David L. Johnson' David L. Johnson said:

Dual pivots adjust with an allen key, and stay there. They're prettier, too.

I dunno about "prettier"... I think my monoplanar Campy calipers on my road bike are a LOT sexier
than the DP brakes I have on my time trial bike. More importantly, the are lighter, and look more
aero. Ahhh, bliss.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $695 ti frame

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 04 Feb 2003 11:12:21 -0500, Jay Beattie wrote: Even if I went

Quoted message said:

back to DT shifting, I would never resurrect my NR

levers because I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cannot afford to buy the wildly expensive gum hoods.

Even when the NRs

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

were "current production," the gum hoods were

expensive -- and they

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

didn't last that long.

Quoted message said:

"David L. Johnson >" <David L. Johnson <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Yeah, I remember being shocked at the price when I had to

replace them

Quoted message said:

once. The new hoods sure last a lot longer.

You can get generic gum hoods, but usually they are very

expensive, or

Quoted message said:

already rotten.

"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I believe there are reproductions around, but they're still made of gum rubber. I can't understand
why someone doesn't just make these in urethane, which is cheaper to make in small volumes, and
lasts practically forever. I guess the retro-geeks want the "real" thing, and everyone else just
buys new brake sets.

The synthetic ones are made by Ame among others. Ten bucks vs. about $70 for n.o.s. originals.
--
Andrew Muzi yellowjersey.orgyellowjersey.orgOpen ↗ Open every day since 1 April 1971