old bikes

in message <[email hidden]>, Dave Kahn

(') said:

"MSeries" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Dave Kahn said:

Modern gear changing systems are so much easier to use that they
have made the downtube lever obsolete. However, there is nothing
intrinsically wrong with downtube levers. They are light, reliable,
mechanically simple, and perfectly safe.

Not sure I agree with you about the reason why dt levers are used
less.

So what is the reason? It takes skill and practice to use d/t levers
effectively. Modern systems are much easier to use and give precise
effortless shifting.

<guy>
Up to a point, Lord Copper.
</guy>

I _like_ friction shifters because they don't go out of adjustment and
you can trim them. Yes, the learning curve is a bit steeper. I also
like ergos; I have ergos on my fast bike just now, and I'll probably
stick with them. But ergos do allow you to trim the front to some
degree. Do road STIs yet? I know mountain bike STIs don't, which is why
my Cannondale will shortly be changing from Shimano XTR to SRAM 9.0 -
primarily to get front trim (although also because I prefer gripshift
to trigger type shifters).

Quoted message said:

D/t levers have become rare because they've been
usurped by something that manufacturers prefer to supply and consumers
prefer to buy in spite of the added weight and complexity. That sounds
like obsolescence to me.

I don't think you can describe it as obsolescence, precisely, when they
are still the preferred option for some very good riders in some
situations. I think you could reasonably describe it as moving out of
the mainstream, becoming niche, being deskilled...

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; not so much a refugee from reality, more a bogus
;; asylum seeker

Simon Brooke wrote:

[leverage]

The d/t lever for the rear derailleur on my Revell Romany is switchable
between indexed and friction; the front is friction only. You still can get
d/t levers if you hunt around a bit...

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================

David E. Belcher said:

"MSeries" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Friction shifting a
front mech is pretty easy to set up properly and TBH I have always
wondered why indexed was ever invented for this, especially for
double.

Depends on the system - Campag Ergopower uses a fine ratchet and so
can be trimmed to a reasonable degree, as well as allowing the same
pattern of lever to be used for doubles or triples. Both Shimano on-
and off-road STI, as I've found on my Trek MTB, simply use a 2- or
3-position ratchet (depending on the type of front mech & chainset)
with far less scope for adjustment and unpleasant scraping noises with
certain gear combinations.

David E. Belcher

Ultegra works for doubles and triples.

I know that Ergo is basically a non indexed arrangement, I have never played
with one. How does the control of the spring return work, does it snap down
to a fixed position then you can trim it back up. (this is the effect that I
had with Ulty using two chainrings) Does the lever allow two such positions
to snap back to for a triple ? I am curious to know how this system works.

Dave Kahn said:

"MSeries" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Dave Kahn said:

Modern gear changing systems are so much easier to use that they
have
made the downtube lever obsolete. However, there is nothing
intrinsically wrong with downtube levers. They are light, reliable,
mechanically simple, and perfectly safe.

Not sure I agree with you about the reason why dt levers are used
less.

So what is the reason? It takes skill and practice to use d/t levers
effectively. Modern systems are much easier to use and give precise
effortless shifting. D/t levers have become rare because they've been
usurped by something that manufacturers prefer to supply and consumers
prefer to buy in spite of the added weight and complexity. That sounds
like obsolescence to me.

But indexed dt shifters give precise effort less shifting too. Mine do. Note
I am not talking about friction shifters here. I disagree that having two
levers to control the same device is easier than one. Move it one way to
change up, back to change down. Easy.

Simon Brooke said:

I don't think you can describe it as obsolescence, precisely, when
they are still the preferred option for some very good riders in some
situations. I think you could reasonably describe it as moving out of
the mainstream, becoming niche, being deskilled...

and still manufactured

mewthree said:

i have a old bike i got second hand and the gears sticks are down on the
frame. are these bikes dangerous? decatholon will not sell them now.

No, they're not dangerous, any more than cars with a manual gearstick
are dangerous. Shimano still make Dura-Ace down tube shifters.

Martin Newstead wrote:

[on Campagnolo Ergopower levers]

Quoted message said:

I know that Ergo is basically a non indexed arrangement, I have never
played with one. How does the control of the spring return work, does
it snap down to a fixed position then you can trim it back up.

No, at least not with Mirage upwards.

Quoted message said:

(this
is the effect that I had with Ulty using two chainrings) Does the
lever allow two such positions to snap back to for a triple ? I am
curious to know how this system works.

Mirage/Veloce/Centaur/Daytona/Chorus/Record:

The left-hand Ergo is similar to the right-hand unit, it's ratcheted.
It's not indexed as in one click per gear but does move the mech in steps,
small steps. It takes about three or four clicks to change up or down one
chainring, or you can just move the mech by one click to trim.

With both levers, you can rapidly shift by more than one step in one go,
in either direction, simply by pressing the lever or button as far as you
like, feeling the firm clicks as you go.

The thumb button shifts to smaller sprockets/rings, finger lever behind
brake lever shifts to larger ones. All operable from both hood and drop
positions.

All are compatible with all front mechs and chainsets: single, double,
triple, and probably even quadruple.

Xenon (bottom of range model) has a different design. I've not used it
and can't remember exactly how it works.

~PB

"mewthree" <[email hidden]> wrote:

| i have a old bike i got second hand and the gears sticks are down on the
| frame. are these bikes dangerous? decatholon will not sell them now.

My 80's Raleigh cast-off had those but I prefer friction levers so I
got a cable stop and some cable outer and moved them up to the thing
the handlebar attaches to whose name I can never remember. Much better
for town trundling I'd say, though I wouldn't call the downtube
position dangerous. I would say you do want to maintain a reasonably
constant body position so as to maintain a reasonably constant view in
the mirror, if you have one, but the main problem with the downtube
position is learning to find it without sticking your fingers in the
front wheel brake block, I found.

Also I replaced the levers with some secondhand Campagnolo Record
ones, very nice, and my bike is so much classier as a result.

--
Patrick Herring, Sheffield, UK
http://www.anweald.co.uk

in message <[email hidden]>, Martin Newstead

(') said:

I know that Ergo is basically a non indexed arrangement, I have never
played with one.

It is indexed; both left and right levers have ten[1] indexed positions
(they seem in fact to be mirror images of one another).

Quoted message said:

How does the control of the spring return work, does
it snap down to a fixed position

The thumb button can click down one, two or three index positions
depending on how far you push it. The finger lever can click up one,
two or three positions. The positions are very positive with a
noticeable click to them. On the double which I have, to lift the chain
from the smaller ring onto the larger may take one or two sweeps of the
finger lever depending on how exactly it has previously been trimmed,
but almost always needs to be clicked one position back with the thumb
button immediately it has settled.

[1] or, on older units, eight or nine

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

...but have you *seen* the size of the world wide spider?

mewthree said:

i have a old bike i got second hand and the gears sticks are down on the
frame. are these bikes dangerous?

Only if you are carrying lots of shopping in badly balanced panniers on
a bike with a loose headset and try to change gear at speed.

Must fix that sometime.

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Martin Newstead

(') said:

I know that Ergo is basically a non indexed arrangement, I have never
played with one.

It is indexed;

I would call it "micro indexed", if I had to call it indexed at all.

Quoted message said:

both left and right levers have ten[1] indexed
positions (they seem in fact to be mirror images of one another).

Nearly. The left lever is slightly different, with the end of the coil
spring fitting to a different place. It doesn't automatically overshift a
bit and return like the right lever does. However, a left lever can be
used to shift a rear mech acceptably well, with a bit of jiggerey pokery
to correct the indexing (eg. cassette respacing or alternative cable
routing). Useful for people with limited use of their right hand.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How does the control of the spring return work, does
it snap down to a fixed position

The thumb button can click down one, two or three index positions
depending on how far you push it. The finger lever can click up one,
two or three positions.

If you mean the shifter's positions, they can click through all ten
positions in one go if your finger/thumb is long enough or wrist supple
enough :-)

~PB

in message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs

(') said:

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Martin Newstead

(') said:

How does the control of the spring return work, does
it snap down to a fixed position

The thumb button can click down one, two or three index positions
depending on how far you push it. The finger lever can click up one,
two or three positions.

If you mean the shifter's positions, they can click through all ten
positions in one go if your finger/thumb is long enough or wrist
supple enough :-)

Sure? I've just tried it and my finger lever seems to have a definite
mechanical stop after five clicks (yes, I was certainly wrong about
three). My thumb lever managed six clicks and did not seem to have any
definite stop, so I'd believe that it would be possible to do all ten.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Women are from Venus. Men are from Mars. Lusers are from Uranus.

Simon Brooke said:

Quoted message said:

If you mean the shifter's positions, they can click through all ten
positions in one go if your finger/thumb is long enough or wrist
supple enough :-)

Sure? I've just tried it and my finger lever seems to have a definite
mechanical stop after five clicks (yes, I was certainly wrong about
three).

Blimey, same with mine (9sp right lever), so I think I was wrong, too.
Campag advertise the fact that you can sweep accross the whole cassette in
one go but maybe they only mean via the thumb button. The finger lever
seems to be limited by the body, simple as that. Otherwise it's jamming
because there's no mechanical stop in the works, afaik. I'll have a
closer look another time to make sure, pref. with a freshly serviced one
off the bike with no hood and cable.

Fortunately, it's accademic since it's not ergonomical to change by more
than 3 or 4 clicks at a time--well, at least with my hands.

Quoted message said:

My thumb lever managed six clicks and did not seem to have any
definite stop, so I'd believe that it would be possible to do all ten.

Can do all 9 with mine.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

Martin Newstead wrote:

[on Campagnolo Ergopower levers]

Quoted message said:

I know that Ergo is basically a non indexed arrangement, I have never
played with one. How does the control of the spring return work, does
it snap down to a fixed position then you can trim it back up.

No, at least not with Mirage upwards.

Quoted message said:

(this
is the effect that I had with Ulty using two chainrings) Does the
lever allow two such positions to snap back to for a triple ? I am
curious to know how this system works.

Mirage/Veloce/Centaur/Daytona/Chorus/Record:

The left-hand Ergo is similar to the right-hand unit, it's ratcheted.
It's not indexed as in one click per gear but does move the mech in
steps, small steps. It takes about three or four clicks to change up
or down one chainring, or you can just move the mech by one click to
trim.

With both levers, you can rapidly shift by more than one step in one
go, in either direction, simply by pressing the lever or button as
far as you like, feeling the firm clicks as you go.

so the button that changes from the large ring to smaller lets out a small
amount of cable (pulled by the spring in the mech) per push but not enough
to move the mech front one ring to the other ? Rather than one push to allow
the mech to spring down like my Ulty ?

in message <[email hidden]>, Martin Newstead

(') said:

Pete Biggs said:

Martin Newstead wrote:

[on Campagnolo Ergopower levers]

Quoted message said:

I know that Ergo is basically a non indexed arrangement, I have
never played with one. How does the control of the spring return
work, does it snap down to a fixed position then you can trim it
back up.

No, at least not with Mirage upwards.

Quoted message said:

(this
is the effect that I had with Ulty using two chainrings) Does the
lever allow two such positions to snap back to for a triple ? I am
curious to know how this system works.

Mirage/Veloce/Centaur/Daytona/Chorus/Record:

The left-hand Ergo is similar to the right-hand unit, it's ratcheted.
It's not indexed as in one click per gear but does move the mech in
steps, small steps. It takes about three or four clicks to change up
or down one chainring, or you can just move the mech by one click to
trim.

With both levers, you can rapidly shift by more than one step in one
go, in either direction, simply by pressing the lever or button as
far as you like, feeling the firm clicks as you go.

so the button that changes from the large ring to smaller lets out a
small amount of cable (pulled by the spring in the mech) per push but
not enough to move the mech front one ring to the other ? Rather than
one push to allow the mech to spring down like my Ulty ?

No, you can sweep it through all the clicks in one push. But the clicks
are very positive, so you notice them. You can of course step down one
click at a time if that's what you prefer.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; If God does not write LISP, God writes some code so similar to
;; LISP as to make no difference.

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

All are compatible with all front mechs and chainsets: single, double,
triple, and probably even quadruple.

Can you still get quadruple chainsets? The only brand I recall seeing
was Thun, a few years back. Don't know if they still make them,
though.

Quoted message said:

Xenon (bottom of range model) has a different design. I've not used it
and can't remember exactly how it works.

Not sure about upshift, but downshift with the Xenon thumb button only
allows you to go down one gear at a time, as per Shimano designs.

David E. Belcher

David E. Belcher said:

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

All are compatible with all front mechs and chainsets: single, double,
triple, and probably even quadruple.

Can you still get quadruple chainsets? The only brand I recall seeing
was Thun, a few years back. Don't know if they still make them,
though.

I saw one on ebay a while back. No idea what brand, or how old it was.

One search later - completed item 7103210257, "BANKRUPT STOCK NEW 170mm
QUAD CHAINWHEEL BLACK" sold by bankrupt-surplus-bike-bits for 3.99, there's
a logo on the photo someone might recognize but I can't read.
http://i7.ebayimg.com/03/i/01/99/dc/53_1_b.JPG

Alan Braggins [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

One search later - completed item 7103210257, "BANKRUPT STOCK NEW 170mm
QUAD CHAINWHEEL BLACK" sold by bankrupt-surplus-bike-bits for 3.99, there's
a logo on the photo someone might recognize but I can't read.
http://i7.ebayimg.com/03/i/01/99/dc/53_1_b.JPG

Someone in Edinburgh who (judgin by where their bike is locked up) works
at the Traverse theatre owns a bike with a Shimano branded (IIRC) 4 ring
chainset.

Jon

Quadruple chainsets! mmmm you guys should pedal more with the back wheel on the ground.

David E. Belcher said:

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

All are compatible with all front mechs and chainsets: single, double,
triple, and probably even quadruple.

Can you still get quadruple chainsets? The only brand I recall seeing
was Thun, a few years back. Don't know if they still make them,
though.

Quoted message said:

Xenon (bottom of range model) has a different design. I've not used it
and can't remember exactly how it works.

Not sure about upshift, but downshift with the Xenon thumb button only
allows you to go down one gear at a time, as per Shimano designs.

David E. Belcher