Okay, so lets hear about those intervals !

[kopride]

Yeah, it's all relative. People also come here and say "I thought Kansas was flat!" The hills here aren't particularly tall, but it's a constant undulation, and it's tough to find a flat stretch of road longer than about .5 miles. Also, when I say 1 minute, I mean a 500w, 1-min-interval minute.

Here's the ride my team did last Sunday http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/activity/4777826 . The route wasn't chosen for being a hilly one, but 45 miles and +/-2667' elevation change nonetheless.

Hey, what else do you bust a guy from Kansas on? And, I agree that those rollers can hurt you just as much as the longer steeper climbs. Hills are largely a function of watts/kg. The bigger boys are always going to have problems on the longer steeper climbs where Newton three laws control.

As an aside, there were some scientific research that proved that Kansas is indeed "flatter than a pancake." So don't blame me for the slander.
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2003/jul/27/holy_hotcakes_study/

 

[frenchyge]

As an aside, there were some scientific research that proved that Kansas is indeed "flatter than a pancake." So don't blame me for the slander.
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2003/jul/27/holy_hotcakes_study/

I'm not taking offense. I agree it's flat from top to bottom, but all those little nooks and crannies can really get you if you're not ready. Around here, the slightly-bigger guys with high AC can use their momentum and deep energy reserves to really bring the pain for short, steep rollers. We're rarely climbing long enough at any one time for the lightweights to control things.

Of course, we have the rivers and lots of creeks which provide some bigger (for us) climbs. I get the impression that the Texas folks are the ones who truly need overpasses to get any elevation change.

But, back to outdoor intervals, I think the further I'm riding from my perceived 'limit' the more I can tolerate some dips in my power. For example I can do 3x30 intervals at UL3-LL4 outdoors because I feel like I can always make up for any momentary dips with a short extra-effort later. For L5 intervals, once that avg drops it stays down, because I'm already gasping to hold on.

edit: I'd just like to add that I've still not found anything better than pure isopower intervals on the CT in ergo mode. Tough on the head sometimes but golden for results ...

Thanks for that reminder for those of us that can't affort a Computrainer -- just in case we'd forgotten.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

... But, back to outdoor intervals, I think the further I'm riding from my perceived 'limit' the more I can tolerate some dips in my power. For example I can do 3x30 intervals at UL3-LL4 outdoors because I feel like I can always make up for any momentary dips with a short extra-effort later. For L5 intervals, once that avg drops it stays down, because I'm already gasping to hold on....

+1 on this frenchyge!

It took me a while to figure this out. If I'm setting out to do an SST or L4 effort I can start a bit lower and ramp up or manage a short drop in power for traffic outdoors. But if I'm trying to hit a PB L5 interval I've got to get a good warmup and nail the effort from the start. There's no headroom for making up power late in the effort when I'm already suffering by minute 3 in a 5 minute effort.

-Dave

 

[Felt_Rider]

I can't think of a place in my area that I could do formal intervals outdoors.

We have the Silver Comet, which is a rails to trails pathway, but with pedestrians, cyclists, and the occasional road intersection it was much more difficult to perform the intervals that I desire. If it were not for the other individuals it would be a great place to do intervals in the longer stretches between car intersections.

On the link above and looking at the speed page you can see how many interruptions as the speed would drop down to near 0 mph to pass individuals or to wait at an intersection.

The place I do most of my club rides is all road intersections and there are not any good stretches of roadway to do intervals.

For me the most predictable and reliable place is indoors.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Of course, we have the rivers and lots of creeks which provide some bigger (for us) climbs. I get the impression that the Texas folks are the ones who truly need overpasses to get any elevation change.

......and Florida / Alabama coast line

 

[kopride]

I can't think of a place in my area that I could do formal intervals outdoors.

We have the Silver Comet, which is a rails to trails pathway, but with pedestrians, cyclists, and the occasional road intersection it was much more difficult to perform the intervals that I desire. If it were not for the other individuals it would be a great place to do intervals in the longer stretches between car intersections.

On the link above and looking at the speed page you can see how many interruptions as the speed would drop down to near 0 mph to pass individuals or to wait at an intersection.

The place I do most of my club rides is all road intersections and there are not any good stretches of roadway to do intervals.

For me the most predictable and reliable place is indoors.

Yep. I don't go near our rail trail bike paths, which are plentiful and nearby, unless it is early morning or lunchtime. They are great for intervals during those times, but otherwise, kids, dogs, rollerbladers . . . definitely not where you want to do intervals. But I can't complain about outdoors out here either. I am a mile from Valley Forge Park, and can ride on a Saturday Morning through senic farmland and not see a car for hours.

My big limiter is time, and that is another place indoors shines. it is just so time efficient.

 

[kopride]

......and Florida / Alabama coast line

Here are our little hills. This was a pretty slow pace because we had a newbie with us. But the route is relentless.

http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/invitation/dashboard.mb?episodePk.pkValue=3694177

 

[rmur17]

I'm not taking offense. I agree it's flat from top to bottom, but all those little nooks and crannies can really get you if you're not ready. Around here, the slightly-bigger guys with high AC can use their momentum and deep energy reserves to really bring the pain for short, steep rollers. We're rarely climbing long enough at any one time for the lightweights to control things.

Of course, we have the rivers and lots of creeks which provide some bigger (for us) climbs. I get the impression that the Texas folks are the ones who truly need overpasses to get any elevation change.

But, back to outdoor intervals, I think the further I'm riding from my perceived 'limit' the more I can tolerate some dips in my power. For example I can do 3x30 intervals at UL3-LL4 outdoors because I feel like I can always make up for any momentary dips with a short extra-effort later. For L5 intervals, once that avg drops it stays down, because I'm already gasping to hold on.

Thanks for that reminder for those of us that can't affort a Computrainer -- just in case we'd forgotten.

hey I got mine thru a coaching deal in 2002 for around $750 USD. Best cycling related purchase I ever made. I agree full retail is a lot of cash but then again so are bikes, wheels, power-meters, training camps yadda, yadda...

 

[jsirabella]

That area is quite tough as I remeber riding through it on my way to Baltimore. Chester was a little scary as parts seemed a little run down but you seem to be north of it. I found the toughest part was crossing the susquehanna and I found Delware really hilly on route 2 (I believe). It was right in the middle of the capital.

-Js

Here are our little hills. This was a pretty slow pace because we had a newbie with us. But the route is relentless.

http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/invitation/dashboard.mb?episodePk.pkValue=3694177

 

[jsirabella]

I like LI. Whenever I go to Boston I ride through it, all the way to Orient Point and cross at the top into CT. Really pretty and fun to ride...

I know a rider out there who just bought a PM and does one race a year...I think MT. Washington(??). Really crazy steep and was cancelled last year for rain and wind.

-Js

yes suh. I can't get anything other than a LSD ride out here on Long Island, NY.. between the traffic and non-existence of hills. But Hincapie managed to get somewhere growing up here, so heck i can too!

 

[kopride]

That area is quite tough as I remeber riding through it on my way to Baltimore. Chester was a little scary as parts seemed a little run down but you seem to be north of it. I found the toughest part was crossing the susquehanna and I found Delware really hilly on route 2 (I believe). It was right in the middle of the capital.

-Js

Your memory is pretty good then. Chester is really run down and nobody would ever ride through it intentionally, unless you were looking to score some smack. But the area on the map is pretty pristine riding and very hilly as you can see from the elevation changes. As you go further west towards the Susquahanna it only gets worse. And the area east of Wilmington is the Brandywine river valley which is no better.

But its No Kansas! On the other hand, its No Mt Washington either!

 

[jsirabella]

Wilmington that was where they had a crazy main road which turned into route 2 and was so friggin steep but it just continued to get worse until you crossed the susquehanna and only stopped after you passed gun powder hill(??).

Chester was special indeed...

-Js

Your memory is pretty good then. Chester is really run down and nobody would ever ride through it intentionally, unless you were looking to score some smack. But the area on the map is pretty pristine riding and very hilly as you can see from the elevation changes. As you go further west towards the Susquahanna it only gets worse. And the area east of Wilmington is the Brandywine river valley which is no better.

But its No Kansas! On the other hand, its No Mt Washington either!

 

[edd]

If you want to get better on hills, 1) train indoors and outdoors at the power ranges you need to climb and you will adapt. 2) get your body fat down to a managable level. 3) make sure that you have a reasonable cassette so that you do not have to climb every hill standing and anearobic.

I think the whole thing got a bit sideways with the " a watt is a watt is a watt " and my " a difference is a difference is difference " statements

There is no disputing that extra power "watts" is what it takes to make a bike go faster up a hill or into the wind. AND subtle differences are not always a bad thing in training.

I started a thread a while back "should a cyclist run" the overwhelming response was "no" with a few exceptions. I don't need to elaborate on why running is too non specific to help in training a cyclists. The point being is that specificity is really really really important. fitness is very very action / activity / velocity specific. When we climb a steep hill on a bike the force we are fighting is gravity. When we do a TT on a bike the force we are fighting is wind resistance. When we grind away on a trainer we are fighting enhanced rolling resistance. These are subtle differences. I'm not saying one is bad and the other is good, I'm saying there are subtle differences.

The point I would like to make … if you never climbed a hill on a bike and only trained on a indoor trainer you would not be as good a climber as if you also trained on a real hill. The reason be specificity of your training. And I'm talking conditioning here not skill with gears etc.

Excessive specificity is a mistake in training, plateaus, injuries, staleness and lack of "adaptation demand" will result.

I am losing you there. Aside from some negligible gains from climbing technique, IMHO hill climbing is essentially watts/kg. Believe me, if you have a technique on how to "adapt"so that I can get my 175lb + body up a hill that is independent of how many watts I am producing as I climb that hill, I am all ear

The watts you produce on your trainer may not be reproduce on the hill ? A real hill will usually be of varying grade and require different gear selection during the climb. Along with this cadence will also vary. It is here we have to deal with a watt is a watt. 300 watts generated at a cadence of 105 rpm is different to 300 watts generated at a cadence of 75 rpm.

If you run out of gears and have to grind away a cadence of 60 rpm or less the difference are no longer subtle.

4) Convince Scarlett Johansen to ride just ahead of you at a pace where you really have to push it to stay with you. . . or better yet, convince her to ride with me, and I will buy you a power tap and pay a good coach for you.

I need her phone number, thanks, I'll do my best

 

[frenchyge]

The point I would like to make … if you never climbed a hill on a bike and only trained on a indoor trainer you would not be as good a climber as if you also trained on a real hill.

I hope your spin-class clients never get wind of that.

My question would be: how do you know? Yes, there are differences, but how do you know that those differences don't make indoor training *better* than hill repeats?

I'm going to guess that the answer is "I don't," but you're right that that's not really relevant to this thread. So, for anyone else following along at home, be sure to also look at some of the other threads on this forum discussing how to get better at climbing hills.

 

[bbrauer]

I bet that Billat would back me up on this one. I think the issue is that there's something lost in translation (so to speak) in the writing of the article (Remember that those aren't Billat's words). From the article:

"Will 5 x 3 minutes improve VO2max, vVO2max, lactate threshold, and running economy more effectively than 30-30 and 60-60? In many cases, the answer is yes"

The reason it's "yes" is because the 3 minute interval targets VO2max much better than 15min of micro intervals (which would target FTP more).

The runners also were able to perform the 30-30 workout for a longer period of time because it's at a lower average power.

There has been some speculation that doing micro intervals can kind of kill two birds with one stone by getting you L4 and L6 workouts at the same time. There's been a lot of discussion on the wattage list on this topic including Billat's work.

I do like microintervals and they certainly keep things interesting.

Before you start going and reading Ms. Billat's mind, consider the obvious. Yes, a three minute interval will target VO2 by virtue of the fact that it targets VO2. I wouldn't extrapolate from this that microintervals aren't effective at hitting this range, or that they're meant to focus on L4. You're looking at average power between on/off. It's these types of variable efforts that made the development of a normalized power algorithmn relevent.

Just sayin'

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Before you start going and reading Ms. Billat's mind, consider the obvious. Yes, a three minute interval will target VO2 by virtue of the fact that it targets VO2. I wouldn't extrapolate from this that microintervals aren't effective at hitting this range, or that they're meant to focus on L4. You're looking at average power between on/off. It's these types of variable efforts that made the development of a normalized power algorithmn relevent.

Just sayin'

This has been discussed before on these forums and beerco is on target. The key is half lives of metabolic adaptation. Looking at the AP of the microinterval workouts is valid because your metabolism does not have time to accomodate the higher power level before dropping back down during microintervals.

In fact the NP algorithm does the same thing by applying a 30 second averaging to power samples before raising the terms to the 4th power. You'll get a slightly higher NP during the microintervals described, but it won't bring a workout with an AP in L4 up into L5 unless you were right up against the top of L4 to start with and that's generally not where sustainable microintervals are ridden(or they won't be sustainable).

Can't speak for Ms. Billat's intentions, but it's valid to characterize the primary training focus of microinterval work in terms of the overall AP as long as the microintervals are short relative to the time it takes the body to respond metabolically.

-Dave

 

[edd]

Movin on:

And I'm just fishing here. Anyone work on progressive intervals, say doing 5 x 3 min intervals as part of this months training. Then 5 x 3.5 min intervals at same power next month then 4 x 4 min, 3 x 5 min etc.?

 

[edd]

My question would be: how do you know? Yes, there are differences, but how do you know that those differences don't make indoor training *better* than hill repeats?.

I could be wrong but I very much doubt it. You get better at what you do. It's that simple. Do something very similar, You get better at doing something very similar.

I know this just as I know not to go down the club and put mony into a poker machine.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...Anyone work on progressive intervals, say doing 5 x 3 min intervals as part of this months training. Then 5 x 3.5 min intervals at same power next month then 4 x 4 min, 3 x 5 min etc.?

Sure, extending interval time is a great way to increase stress without necessarily jumping to higher power. I do that this time of year with 20 minute intervals extending to 30, 45.. somewhere around 45-55 minutes and I'll bump the power up in the next similar session. Rick got me thinking in terms of playing with the time dimension and it works really well for those mid SST efforts.

Come spring I'll do L5 work just as you suggest starting with 3 minute efforts and extending them to 5 or more minutes before bumping the power up. It's a bit tougher with L6 and L7 work, they're fairly short to start with and I don't want to "water down" L7 sprints, I'd prefer to keep them short sweet and fast.

-Dave

 

[edd]

Sure, extending interval time is a great way to increase stress without necessarily jumping to higher power. I do that this time of year with 20 minute intervals extending to 30, 45.. somewhere around 45-55 minutes and I'll bump the power up in the next similar session. Rick got me thinking in terms of playing with the time dimension and it works really well for those mid SST efforts.

Come spring I'll do L5 work just as you suggest starting with 3 minute efforts and extending them to 5 or more minutes before bumping the power up. It's a bit tougher with L6 and L7 work, they're fairly short to start with and I don't want to "water down" L7 sprints, I'd prefer to keep them short sweet and fast.

-Dave

I noted with short max effort indoor sprint interval, that doing too many is not good as it really trashes the legs. Similarly in diminishing degrees do 1 min, 3 min and 5 min intervals. So I always leave them to late in the week (Thursdays) Friday off the bike and am fresh for road ride on Sunday.

I got the feeling reading through this thread that a few bods seem to do a lot of intervals in a seesion.

Depending on intensity of the interval work … for me I do a maximum of 20 mins of a 50 min to 1 hour training session. Any more and I'd show signs of over-training, then again I'm 59, younger guns may handle a larger block and recover quicker.