OK .. back to road bikes ..

elyob said:

Can anyone explain the difference in handlebars on racing bikes. Are the
gears all in the same places?

Thats a really good question. I have started doing many more miles,
upped my annual from 2500 to 4500 to a projected 10,000 this year.
Using three bikes it has become necessary for me to have my position
very similar on all three. So much that I have recently got some new
bars for my best bike, despite it being fine for the last 8 years. Now
that I am doing 200Km + rides on it it was not good enough. On my 3
road bikes the gears are in he same place on two and thats the
downtube, the third has those new fangled STi things, this is the bike
that is getting new bars. Generally with new bikes they are all in the
same place these days but the differences can be quite subtle and you
may find some bars/levers more comfortable than others. Really depends
on you and how you use your equipment.

in message <[email hidden]>, elyob

(') said:

Can anyone explain the difference in handlebars on racing bikes. Are
the gears all in the same places?

I'm not entirely sure what type of cycling I will do, but can see
myself around Richmond Park and doing some distance cycling. It's an
entirely different kettle of fish than my current mountain/street bike.

Most, but not all, road bikes have 'bends' or 'drop bars' with brake
levers on the bends. The design of drop bars hasn't changed much in
fifty years, largely because they work.
<URL:http://www.wiggle.co.uk/Default.aspx?ProdID=5300004020>
Modern Shimano and Campagnolo road groupsets have the gear shifters
integrated with the brake levers, although the exact mechanisms differ
in the way you work them (and different Shimano models and years differ
too).

However, particularly on triathlon and time trial bikes, tribars (or
aerobars, same thing) may be used; if they are, the gear shifters may be
bar-end or lever type and mounted on the tribars, while the brakes
remain in the conventional place:
<URL:http://www.wiggle.co.uk/Default.aspx?ProdID=5360012834>

High-end time trial bikes often have wing bars rather than drops; these
are almost always used in conjunction with tribars:
<URL:http://www.wiggle.co.uk/Default.aspx?ProdID=5360008179>

Increasingly, wing bars with aero extensions are being sold as single
integrated systems:
<URL:http://www.wiggle.co.uk/Default.aspx?ProdID=5360008172>

NB: this isn't an endorsement of wiggle, just they're convenient and have
examples of all the types I was talking about.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; All in all you're just another nick in the ball
-- Think Droid

"elyob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Can anyone explain the difference in handlebars on racing bikes. Are the
gears all in the same places?

Errr... how do you mean??? change rear cogs with right side, change front
with left side... It was the same with my hybrid.

Cheers, helen s

Quoted message said:

I'm not entirely sure what type of cycling I will do, but can see myself
around Richmond Park and doing some distance cycling. It's an entirely
different kettle of fish than my current mountain/street bike.

elyob said:

Can anyone explain the difference in handlebars on racing bikes.
Are the gears all in the same places?

I'm not entirely sure what type of cycling I will do, but can see
myself around Richmond Park and doing some distance cycling. It's
an entirely different kettle of fish than my current
mountain/street bike.

Your "bog standard" racing bike will tend to have brifters these days.
That is, the gear mechanism is integrated with the brake levers. The
Campag and Shimano systems work differently from each other but both
are very good arrangements and both have their fans. For general fast
riding and hacking either system will be very good.

There are other arrangements. Lance, for example, seems to prefer an
old fashioned down tube lever for his front changer while keeping the
STI brifter for his rear derailleur. I think this is mostly for weight
saving but IMO the Shimano system, for the front changer at least, is
inferior to the Campag one, which is more trimmable. The Shimano one
also has a tendency to drop the chain when shifting to the small ring
if you are clumsy. It therefore usually happens only at crucial moments
in a race. :-(

Bar end shifters are another alternative, and easier to maintain.
Generally though, racing cyclists these days tend to use them only on
time trial bikes where they are sometimes fitted to aero bars. Quite a
few Audax riders also use them as they are a bit more reliable than
brifters.

Incidentally, riding around Richmond Park you will almost certainly be
exceeding the 20mph speed limit in places unless your riding is very
restrained, but I think you know that already.

--
Dave...

"dkahn400" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Incidentally, riding around Richmond Park you will almost certainly be
exceeding the 20mph speed limit in places unless your riding is very
restrained, but I think you know that already.

I know, but am wondering if it's enforced at dusk/night 😉

Where else would you recommend a new 'roadie' to go looking for a good
route?

I've just thrown caution to the wind and ordered an OCR3 racing bike. Will
spend the next few days making space in my storage space.

dkahn400 said:

elyob said:

Can anyone explain the difference in handlebars on racing bikes. Are
the gears all in the same places?

I'm not entirely sure what type of cycling I will do, but can see
myself around Richmond Park and doing some distance cycling. It's an
entirely different kettle of fish than my current mountain/street
bike.

[chop]

Quoted message said:

There are other arrangements. Lance, for example, seems to prefer an
old fashioned down tube lever for his front changer while keeping the
STI brifter for his rear derailleur. I think this is mostly for weight
saving

[more chopping]

AFAIK he only uses a down-tube shifter on his ultralight climbing bike
for the really lumpy bits. 'Brifter' everywhen else.

Mark

elyob said:

Can anyone explain the difference in handlebars on racing bikes. Are the
gears all in the same places?

There are four types.

Combined brake/shift levers, on nearly all new bikes. Shimano call it
STI (as on mountain bikes), Campagnolo call it Ergopower. Some people
prefer Campag because of the neater cable routing (it all goes under the
bar tape) and the ability to shift when standing up. Shimano's front
indexing is a PITA and really unnecessary, but as an MTBer you'll
probably be used to it. Rather complex and expensive; don't ever think
about taking a unit apart.

Down tube levers, almost extinct on new bikes but still made. No cable
outers (except the little loop for the rear mech), and short cables, so
very precise shifting and excellent reliability. If you're used to them
from years gone by, they're not a problem. If not, you'll hate them.
Slight disadvantage in that simultaneous front and back changes are
impossible and there's no provision for adjusting the rear cable on the fly.

Bar-end levers, almost exclusively used by time triallists and tourists.
Utterly reliable, simultaneous f/r changes are possible and you get
the adjusters for the indexing. The cable run is ugly (it sweeps
forward in a loop, then back to the down tube).

Stem-mounted levers. Only on really cr*p bikes from the 1970s and
1980s. Same disadvantages as downtube levers, then some - and they have
a reputation for emasculating the rider in a crash ;-)

"Mark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

dkahn400 said:

elyob said:

Can anyone explain the difference in handlebars on racing bikes. Are
the gears all in the same places?

I'm not entirely sure what type of cycling I will do, but can see
myself around Richmond Park and doing some distance cycling. It's an
entirely different kettle of fish than my current mountain/street
bike.

[chop]

Quoted message said:

There are other arrangements. Lance, for example, seems to prefer an
old fashioned down tube lever for his front changer while keeping the
STI brifter for his rear derailleur. I think this is mostly for weight
saving

[more chopping]

AFAIK he only uses a down-tube shifter on his ultralight climbing bike
for the really lumpy bits. 'Brifter' everywhen else.

I've never used a Brifter before. How do you use it?!

Also, if I'm averaging 13mph on a MTB, what percentage improvement should I
expect on a race bike? I'm guessing I should average about 16mph +, but have
no idea what the weight difference will provide.

Thanks

in message <42caca39.0@entanet>, Zog The Undeniable

(') said:

Down tube levers, almost extinct on new bikes but still made. No cable
outers (except the little loop for the rear mech), and short cables, so
very precise shifting and excellent reliability. If you're used to
them
from years gone by, they're not a problem. If not, you'll hate them.
Slight disadvantage in that simultaneous front and back changes are
impossible

Not so. Hand (for me, the right) above down tube; thumb pushes front
changer forward while fingers push rear changer back. I can't do it the
other way around, but I expect there are people who can.

Still, I agree that brifters make these things easier.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Wannabe a Web designer?
<URL:http://userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/97dec/19971206.html>

elyob said:

"Mark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[more chopping]

AFAIK he only uses a down-tube shifter on his ultralight climbing
bike for the really lumpy bits. 'Brifter' everywhen else.

I've never used a Brifter before. How do you use it?!

It's not a term I'd heard before, but I liked it so I carried it on :~)

A 'brifter' is more formally known as an STI lever when Shimano
flavoured or 'Ergopower' level when made by Campagnolo. Both do a
similar job -- combining brake and gear levers into one unit -- but in
slightly different ways. With all but the cheapest Shimano units you
shift to a bigger chainring/sprocket by pushing the whole brake lever
towards the middle of the handlebars and to a smaller chainring/sprocket
by flicking a smaller lever behind the brake lever. The Campagnolo
system is a bit opposite to Shimano: the small lever behind the brake
lever moves to a bigger chainring/sprocket, while an additional thumb
button on the inside of the hood (the bit that attaches the whole brake
lever assembly to the bar) moves to a smaller ring/sprocket.

My description is clunky and inelegant but the real products are
actually very easy and natural to use. They're probably heavier than a
downtube shifter (see previous notes on Lance), more complex and
certainly a damn sight more expensive but I wouldn't be without them.

Quoted message said:

Also, if I'm averaging 13mph on a MTB, what percentage improvement
should I expect on a race bike? I'm guessing I should average about
16mph +, but have no idea what the weight difference will provide.

I'd have thought that was a reasonable guess. I'm so used to riding a
road bike with 100psi in the tyres it makes me feel a bit sick to see
someone chugging up the road on a MTB shod with knobblies at 20psi,
tyres bouncing as they pump away at the pedals :~) If your MTB has
slicks then perhaps the difference won't be so pronounced, but I'm sure
the more efficient position, stiffer frame and lighter weight will help
boost your average speed.

Cheers,

Mark

"Mark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 2005-07-05, elyob <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, if I'm averaging 13mph on a MTB, what percentage improvement
should I expect on a race bike? I'm guessing I should average about
16mph +, but have no idea what the weight difference will provide.

I'd have thought that was a reasonable guess. I'm so used to riding a
road bike with 100psi in the tyres it makes me feel a bit sick to see
someone chugging up the road on a MTB shod with knobblies at 20psi,
tyres bouncing as they pump away at the pedals :~) If your MTB has
slicks then perhaps the difference won't be so pronounced, but I'm sure
the more efficient position, stiffer frame and lighter weight will help
boost your average speed.

My MTB is pretty heavy, due to carrying everything I'd ever need. I run
semi-slicks, but with fat kevlar linings. I'm not looking forward to meeting
the p*nct*re fairy again soon. In fact, I'm not even sure how to change a
tyre/tube on a race bike. I'm sure the kit that needs to be carried is
completely different from a MTB. Advice here, really appreciated.

I'm going to run the road bike light, and probably fair weather only too. My
top speed on a MTB (off Ditchling Beacon) is 53.3mph. I want to revisit with
a big tow and see if I can break 70mph. I'm thinking it's a fairly
reasonable estimate.

I'm excited, in case no one has noticed 😉

elyob said:

"Mark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

elyob said:

Also, if I'm averaging 13mph on a MTB, what percentage improvement
should I expect on a race bike? I'm guessing I should average about
16mph +, but have no idea what the weight difference will provide.

I'd have thought that was a reasonable guess. I'm so used to riding a
road bike with 100psi in the tyres it makes me feel a bit sick to see
someone chugging up the road on a MTB shod with knobblies at 20psi,
tyres bouncing as they pump away at the pedals :~) If your MTB has
slicks then perhaps the difference won't be so pronounced, but I'm
sure the more efficient position, stiffer frame and lighter weight
will help boost your average speed.

My MTB is pretty heavy, due to carrying everything I'd ever need. I
run semi-slicks, but with fat kevlar linings. I'm not looking forward
to meeting the p*nct*re fairy again soon. In fact, I'm not even sure
how to change a tyre/tube on a race bike. I'm sure the kit that needs
to be carried is completely different from a MTB. Advice here, really
appreciated.

Unless you have tubulars tyres (aka 'tubs' and you almost certainly
won't) which are an inner tube and tyre all sewn up into a circular
sausage that you glue to the rim, it's much the same as MTB-land.
Sometimes you can persuade the tyre off the rim with your hands
(Vittoria Open Corsas are good for this) and other times you might need
to use tyre levers. Fix the puncture as usual, put it all back together
and pump up. I usually carry a spare tube or two (much faster than
patching one and is useful for when a valve breaks or the tube has a
giant split), a small pump and a small repair kit with levers, glue,
patches, 4/5/6mm allen keys.

Quoted message said:

I'm going to run the road bike light, and probably fair weather only
too. My top speed on a MTB (off Ditchling Beacon) is 53.3mph. I want
to revisit with a big tow and see if I can break 70mph. I'm thinking
it's a fairly reasonable estimate.

Jesus. That's fast.

Quoted message said:

I'm excited, in case no one has noticed 😉

Really?

Mark

Zog The Undeniable said:

Down tube levers, almost extinct on new bikes but still made. No cable
outers (except the little loop for the rear mech), and short cables, so
very precise shifting and excellent reliability. If you're used to them
from years gone by, they're not a problem. If not, you'll hate them.
Slight disadvantage in that simultaneous front and back changes are
impossible and there's no provision for adjusting the rear cable on the fly.

Switch the rear to friction mode and one has lashings of adjustment.

in message <[email hidden]>, elyob

(') said:

"Mark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

dkahn400 said:

elyob wrote:
> Can anyone explain the difference in handlebars on racing bikes.
> Are the gears all in the same places?
>
> I'm not entirely sure what type of cycling I will do, but can see
> myself around Richmond Park and doing some distance cycling. It's an
> entirely different kettle of fish than my current mountain/street
> bike.

[chop]

Quoted message said:

There are other arrangements. Lance, for example, seems to prefer an
old fashioned down tube lever for his front changer while keeping the
STI brifter for his rear derailleur. I think this is mostly for
weight saving

[more chopping]

AFAIK he only uses a down-tube shifter on his ultralight climbing bike
for the really lumpy bits. 'Brifter' everywhen else.

I've never used a Brifter before. How do you use it?!

Campag, push the swing lever in to change up a cog (or several); click
the thumb button down to change down a cog (or several); front deraileur
can be trimmed. Shimano, do one of a dozen different things depending on
the mood the designer was in on the day your brifters were designed;
trimming? what's trimming? Campag, to brake, pull the brake lever. To
release the tyre, press the toggle button. If you've changed a wheel and
forgotten to reset the release mechanism, and you want to brake, just
brake normally. Shimano, to brake, pull the brake lever (which may also
swing and change gear, again depending on the designer's mood on the
day). To release the tyre, turn the lever on the brake caliper. If
you've changed a wheel and forgotten to reset the release mechanism, and
you want to brake, just crash.

I give you two guesses about which system I use :-)

Quoted message said:

Also, if I'm averaging 13mph on a MTB, what percentage improvement
should I expect on a race bike? I'm guessing I should average about
16mph +, but have no idea what the weight difference will provide.

At least 10% improvement, don't be at all surprised by 25%.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
.::;===r==\
/ /___||___\____
//==\- ||- | /__\( MS Windows IS an operating environment.
//____\__||___|_// \|: C++ IS an object oriented programming
language.
\__/ ~~~~~~~~~ \__/ Citroen 2cv6 IS a four door family saloon.

in message <[email hidden]>, elyob

(') said:

My MTB is pretty heavy, due to carrying everything I'd ever need. I run
semi-slicks, but with fat kevlar linings. I'm not looking forward to
meeting the p*nct*re fairy again soon. In fact, I'm not even sure how
to change a tyre/tube on a race bike. I'm sure the kit that needs to be
carried is completely different from a MTB. Advice here, really
appreciated.

A fat barrelled pump, as usually carried on an MTB, won't easily pump to
100psi; a narrow barrelled pump will, but can take a lot of strokes.
Road tubes more commonly have Presta valves. Apart from that, you
obviously need a spare tube of the right size, but everything else
(repair kit, levers) is exactly the same.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; It's dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
;; Voltaire RIP Dr David Kelly 1945-2004

elyob said:

I'm going to run the road bike light, and probably fair weather only
too. My top speed on a MTB (off Ditchling Beacon) is 53.3mph. I want
to revisit with a big tow and see if I can break 70mph. I'm thinking
it's a fairly reasonable estimate.

London Recumbents' Darth Oliver reports 70 mph on Ditchling, but that's on a
Challenge Hurricane. Unless you are very close behind something large and
fast, I suspect you may be disappointed...

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
While you were out at the Rollright Stones, I came and set fire to your
Shed.

Mark said:

On 2005-07-05, elyob <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've never used a Brifter before. How do you use it?!

It's not a term I'd heard before, but I liked it so I carried it
on :~)

I'm not too proud to admit I got it from the Leftpondians. From
Sheldon's glossary: "Brifter. A combination brake/shift lever, such as
a Campagnolo Ergo or Shimano S.T.I. unit. This term was coined by Bruce
Frech."

It may be too Merkin for some tastes as "shifter" and "shift lever" are
clearly USAian, but I think the British alternative of "brear lever"
would be less than satisfactory. :-)

--
Dave...

elyob said:

I'm going to run the road bike light, and probably fair weather
only too. My top speed on a MTB (off Ditchling Beacon) is 53.3mph.
I want to revisit with a big tow and see if I can break 70mph. I'm
thinking it's a fairly reasonable estimate.

Mid-50's are doable, but I'll be impressed if you can break 60, let
alone 70. Good luck with the project though, and let us know if you
succeed. In all the hilly Audax rides I've done this year I've only
managed low 50's. My fastest computer-recorded speed was in the
Pyrenees in the 2003 Etape, and that was only around 53mph.

--
Dave...

elyob said:

"dkahn400" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Incidentally, riding around Richmond Park you will almost
certainly be exceeding the 20mph speed limit in places unless
your riding is very restrained, but I think you know that
already.

I know, but am wondering if it's enforced at dusk/night 😉

Where else would you recommend a new 'roadie' to go looking for
a good route?

Quoted message said:

From that sort of area head through either Kingston or

Twickenham/Hampton to Esher, and thence into the Surrey hills. Let me
know if you want a detailed route.

Quoted message said:

I've just thrown caution to the wind and ordered an OCR3 racing
bike. Will spend the next few days making space in my storage
space.

Fantastic. Enjoy it.

--
Dave...