Obituary for David G. Groves

BigNascarFan said:

GROVES, DAVID G., age 57, of Birmingham, Alabama formerly of Chicago, died February 28, 2004 after
a long illness. Survivors include his daughter, Dana Ripple. A memorial service will be held in
Pennsylvania at a later time. Ridout's Elmwood Chapel is directing. <> Published in The Birmingham
News on 3/1/2004.

legacy.comLink.aspOpen ↗

I am sorry to hear of that, Nas. As a mark of respect, how about silence on this ng for 3 hours.

Al.

"BigNascarFan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

GROVES, DAVID G., age 57, of Birmingham, Alabama formerly of Chicago, died February 28, 2004 after
a long illness. Survivors include his daughter, Dana Ripple. A memorial service will be held in
Pennsylvania at a later time. Ridout's Elmwood Chapel is directing. <> Published in The Birmingham
News on 3/1/2004.

Thanks for the information Nas. Sad to hear. I'm not one for praying, (for this reason!!) but I'll
think of him.

Beav

BigNascarFan said:

GROVES, DAVID G., age 57, of Birmingham, Alabama formerly of Chicago, died February 28, 2004 after
a long illness. Survivors include his daughter, Dana Ripple. A memorial service will be held in
Pennsylvania at a later time. Ridout's Elmwood Chapel is directing. <> Published in The Birmingham
News on 3/1/2004.

legacy.comLink.aspOpen ↗

The last I heard, he had an infection contracted while in the hospital after his double bypass in
early September last year. This information was from late November.

The last time I saw him was April, 2002. He had lost weight from our previous meeting in September
2000, when the DIF bylaws were written in Washington, DC. He also had an open lesion on the ball of
one of his feet that was painful to walk on. I gave him a lecture about getting his BG under control
so he could get healthy. He responded that he was tired of diabetes and didn't want to bother with
the beast any longer (in stronger language to get me off his back). I told him that he didn't have a
choice, as his health depended on it. But I didn't push the point.

We spent most of our time working on his network configuration and security. But he refused to
reload a backup for one of his compromised Windows machnines, because he had too much to lose on the
hard drive. This machine could be reinfecting his other computers and he refused to clean it up. So
I gave up and suggested we go to dinner. This was when I noticed he didn't eat much on his plate. On
the way home I asked him if he was OK, since he didn't eat much at dinner. He said his teeth hurt
and he couldn't chew much. He had a large amount of dental work done when he lived in Boston (not
Chicago, so "formerly of Boston" is correct). This dental work was bothering him at dinner.

I left the next day thinking he was not healthy, but what could I do.

On the flip side of this Rock'n Roll record, Dave had a full life. One of his early jobs out of
college was for the Atlanta Federal Reserve, as he was an accountant. This started his banking
career and his specialty was selling mortgages on the secondary market. He made large amounts of
money for the Senovis (sp?) Bank in Birmingham, AL, with his skill in this secondary market. He also
wrote software to do this selling in this market. This selling has alittle black magic associated
with it, as his boss could not understand how he was so successful at it. So Dave was quite
accomplished in this arena.

In any case Nas, thanks for posting Dave's obit,
--
Jim Dumas T1 4/86, background retinopathy, rarely hypoglycemic: <1/mo. lispro+R+U+NPH daily,
moderate exercise, typically <6% HbA1c

BigNascarFan said:

GROVES, DAVID G., age 57, of Birmingham, Alabama formerly of Chicago, died February 28, 2004 after
a long illness. Survivors include his daughter, Dana Ripple. A memorial service will be held in
Pennsylvania at a later time. Ridout's Elmwood Chapel is directing. <> Published in The Birmingham
News on 3/1/2004.

legacy.comLink.aspOpen ↗

dave was right half the time, and when he was wrong, he was so wrong you were never in any
doubt about it

i hope i live another 30 years. if nothing else, to get a sense of how history will judge him. my
own judgment is that he's right in there with Joslin. i'll grant only that the medical community is
unlikely to see that any time soon

thank you for posting his obit

bill t1 since '57

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗ I've
tried to get Groves to tone down his opinions since I've been in DIF. But he refuses. So I must try
some work-around and that would be the newsletter that would buffer the public from him. His work
with the web site has kept him very busy and out of everybody's way. But he's the only one who knows
anything about it.

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗

5/21/2002 15:12:46 -0400 said:

There is a board meeting for DIF next month...

Quoted message said:

So I'm thinking about volunteering to be the editor and write an article on mathematical modelling
useful for insulin dosing...

Quoted message said:

Since I'll be the editor, I'll strike a balance between the beef insulin arguments and synthetics
that I use.

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
Groves is 10 years older that I am. I'm the youngest member of DIF and will inherit the reins. We
have tax exempt status as of May 2001 or so. So the train is still in the station and the schedule
is being worked out now. My current DIF duties are to keep order and focus Groves (impossible task).
Groves is starting to lose his mobility with the auto accident side leg. So he may not be an active
player in DIF soon.

The goal with you is just to keep the peace while the dust settles in
DIF.Groves has no organizational skills, so that is my major function with DIF now. Start to set up
the gears/procedures of the organization.

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
in I admit that I'm probably the DIF alpha. Once Groves has beef insulin on the shelves, DIF
will disappear (or he will disappear more likely). He's short sighted. (I'll propose he head
up beef insulin clinical trial funding studies. This will be something he wants and then I'll
drive the bus.)

But IMO, DIF is necessary. We DMs need somebody watching out for us. So I would like DIF to be a
permanent organization with some clout. As you can tell, I'm primarily a peace keeper myself. I
would like that philosophy of check and balance to be ingrained in DIF.

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
Next, I agree that he jams the gears in any organization he comes in contact with. Even now, he trys
to convert me to beef insulin when we see each other. But I'm stable and happy with what I'm doing
so I blow him off. This causes some friction but it ends in a few minutes and then we get something
productive done.

Now that you know I want to keep Groves away from the public, just email me if he shows and I'll
help to move him on to his official duties. I'll probably set up a thread to suck him in, embarrass
him in public and this will get him out of mhd for awhile.

You should also realize how deliberate and methodical I am by now. If a side argument will not help
to achieve the goal, it gets shutdown.

Sorry to upset everybody, my mission is over, thanks,

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗ AF
the future of DIF, we are thinking about doing other things, like separate SBIR work. So there is a
movement to turn everything over to Dave Groves concerning DIF, and he can run the show in unity. So
DIF may quietly disintegrate this fall.

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗ I
plan to keep Groves focused on you alone. I'm driving the bus.

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
put=gplain
1) For Mary, only friends tell each other what they really think.

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗ I'm
a member of DIF (Diabetics International Foundation). Right now, it's focused on bringing beef and
pork insulin back into the US market.

As I mentioned in the Beav threads in the Jan-Feb time frame, I'd like to make DIF into a watchdog
organization for all DMs. I envision some lobbyist organization in Washington, DC, to promote our
cause and to hold the line against the pharmaceutical companies.

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
Others have asked me to contact them when Groves is gone. So I'll add your name to that list. OK?

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

to further make my point, I suggest we drop the subject until such a time when Mr. Groves and Ms.
Hunt are no longer "in charge" / involved.

Quoted message said:

jim dumas said:

At this juncture, there is no other political organization to fill

this void

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for the patient (we DMs). So it's better to keep your fingers on

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

democratic pulse. You have an inside track through me and it's

free (no

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

schilling!).

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗ My
approach with Groves is to ignore his views that are not in common with my own and work on issues
we can agree on. This also means my engine is idling because he wants to do everything himself.
Eventually, he'll ask for more help and I'll negotiate him away from the public. I'm a very
patient person.

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
Moreover, it's important to realize Mr Groves will not be here forever and the rest of us should
learn how to work together in some political organization to promote our views.

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
t=gplain My approach with this issue was to preemptively release this information before his enemies
could jump
DIG.Honesty is the best policy.

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
t=gplain Next, in light of Dave Groves' health problems, I'm wondering where DIF will be going and
if the "Gray Ribbon" organizational signature is worth saving for some future DM organization.

If you thought of yourself as a friend to him, am glad that we don't know each other. Reading the ng
and searching on Dave Groves and his DIF says otherwise. There are many more references than these
that say so. A friend doesn't act like this-NIMHO.

Jim Dumas <[email protected]!mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

BigNascarFan said:

GROVES, DAVID G., age 57, of Birmingham, Alabama formerly of Chicago, died February 28, 2004
after a long illness. Survivors include his daughter, Dana Ripple. A memorial service will be
held in Pennsylvania at a later time. Ridout's Elmwood Chapel is directing. <> Published in The
Birmingham News on 3/1/2004.

legacy.comLink.aspOpen ↗

sieweke said:

nastiness snipped

David is dead, and now you jump on his grave. I think you are gutless.

Al.

you obviously didn't understand the post: try reading it again, Alan.

dave

Alan Hardy said:

sieweke said:

nastiness snipped

David is dead, and now you jump on his grave. I think you are gutless.

Al.

sieweke said:

If you thought of yourself as a friend to him, am glad that we don't know each other. Reading the
ng and searching on Dave Groves and his DIF says otherwise. There are many more references than
these that say so. A friend doesn't act like this-NIMHO.

Hi Sieweke,

It's impossible to understand a decade relationship in 10 minutes of Googling newsgroup posts. But I
admit I was disappointed with DIF's single focus on beef insulin issues.

When Dave asked me to help by becoming a founding board member of DIF, I outlined my interests in
working on clinical trial funding for academic researchers to investigate inexpensive methods to
delay or prevent glycosylation, as with daily use of l-lysine, l-arginine or aspirin. I argued that
this would be useful to all DMs, T1s and T2s. It would also never receive funding from the
pharmaceutical companies, as there were no patents on these compounds to provide a profit motive. My
vision for DIF was to do useful work that the professionals had overlooked or were unable to do.
Needless to say, we never got off the ground and I admit that I'm angry at Dave for not using a
democratic process at board meetings to seek out the board's collective wisdom.

Even the Chairman of the Board, Dr Bob Blumenthal, the true owner of DIF, could not get Dave to
cooperate with his agenda. The board failed to function and most of the members quit. Only Mary
Hunt, after two resignations/reinstatements has remained on the board. Dr Bob gave up and was going
to transfer the DIF organizational paperwork to Dave for $500 to cover his startup costs to receive
tax exempt status, etc. But I'm not sure if he ever did this.

When I first came to MHD in December 2001, I was looking for Novolog information. I soon realized
the power of this global medium to discuss DM issues. But I never pushed DIF's agenda on MHD. It was
through an argument with Gary Ennis that my DIF affiliation became public. I still think MHD is the
perfect medium for worldwide discussion of issues concerning DMs. If some organization results from
this interaction, so much the better. But I no longer think DIF will be this vehicle. There is just
too much baggage from the past.

In any case, tell me how you came to know Dave Groves. Are you using CP beef insulin as well?

And nice to meet you of course,
--
Jim Dumas T1 4/86, background retinopathy, rarely hypoglycemic: <1/mo. lispro+R+U+NPH daily,
moderate exercise, typically <6% HbA1c

Learned about Mr. Groves while reading this ng about 6 months ago when reading the "Dave Groves
in hospital" thread. My one previous post well describes my opinion as to how his illness seemed
to be an opportunity for some people to divulge supposed aspects of his personal life. Wasn't the
one who originally posted the cited items referred to as nastiness by someone else. Primary
author of them is
Mr. Dumas, who said of his friend of 10 years:

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗

"Now that you know I want to keep Groves away from the public, just e mail me if he shows and I'll
help to move him along to his official duties. I'll probably set up a thread to suck him in,
embarrass him in public and this will get him out of mhd for awhile."

I could read things like this for ten minutes or ten years and would be of the same opinion about
it--friends don't set friends up. The issue has nothing to do with any aspect of diabetes. It has to
do with character.

.

Jim Dumas <[email protected]!mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

sieweke said:

If you thought of yourself as a friend to him, am glad that we don't know each other. Reading
the ng and searching on Dave Groves and his DIF says otherwise. There are many more references
than these that say so. A friend doesn't act like this-NIMHO.

Hi Sieweke,

It's impossible to understand a decade relationship in 10 minutes of Googling newsgroup posts. But
I admit I was disappointed with DIF's single focus on beef insulin issues.

When Dave asked me to help by becoming a founding board member of DIF, I outlined my interests in
working on clinical trial funding for academic researchers to investigate inexpensive methods to
delay or prevent glycosylation, as with daily use of l-lysine, l-arginine or aspirin. I argued
that this would be useful to all DMs, T1s and T2s. It would also never receive funding from the
pharmaceutical companies, as there were no patents on these compounds to provide a profit motive.
My vision for DIF was to do useful work that the professionals had overlooked or were unable to
do. Needless to say, we never got off the ground and I admit that I'm angry at Dave for not using
a democratic process at board meetings to seek out the board's collective wisdom.

Even the Chairman of the Board, Dr Bob Blumenthal, the true owner of DIF, could not get Dave to
cooperate with his agenda. The board failed to function and most of the members quit. Only Mary
Hunt, after two resignations/reinstatements has remained on the board. Dr Bob gave up and was
going to transfer the DIF organizational paperwork to Dave for $500 to cover his startup costs to
receive tax exempt status, etc. But I'm not sure if he ever did this.

When I first came to MHD in December 2001, I was looking for Novolog information. I soon realized
the power of this global medium to discuss DM issues. But I never pushed DIF's agenda on MHD. It
was through an argument with Gary Ennis that my DIF affiliation became public. I still think MHD
is the perfect medium for worldwide discussion of issues concerning DMs. If some organization
results from this interaction, so much the better. But I no longer think DIF will be this vehicle.
There is just too much baggage from the past.

In any case, tell me how you came to know Dave Groves. Are you using CP beef insulin as well?

And nice to meet you of course,

sieweke said:

Learned about Mr. Groves while reading this ng about 6 months ago when reading the "Dave Groves
in hospital" thread. My one previous post well describes my opinion as to how his illness seemed
to be an opportunity for some people to divulge supposed aspects of his personal life. Wasn't the
one who originally posted the cited items referred to as nastiness by someone else. Primary
author of them is
Mr. Dumas, who said of his friend of 10 years:

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

"Now that you know I want to keep Groves away from the public, just e mail me if he shows and I'll
help to move him along to his official duties. I'll probably set up a thread to suck him in,
embarrass him in public and this will get him out of mhd for awhile."

I could read things like this for ten minutes or ten years and would be of the same opinion about
it--friends don't set friends up. The issue has nothing to do with any aspect of diabetes. It has
to do with character.

We're all entitled to our opinions.

So you've never met Dave Groves.

You should reserve your opinions until you meet both parties in any relationship. You should study
how they interact before you pass judgement on either party. If you make decisions with only half
the required data, you're not making an optimal decision.

In any case, the next question was: Do you use CP beef insulin? I take it you don't.

This begs the question: Why are you in this thread?
--
Jim Dumas T1 4/86, background retinopathy, rarely hypoglycemic: <1/mo. lispro+R+U+NPH daily,
moderate exercise, typically <6% HbA1c

Stand by the opinion that friends don't behave like this. Re: observance of interaction: Persons
serving on juries do not observe the person accused while the offense is committed; they must rely
on the evidence presented to them to come to their conclusions.

It is entirely possible for one to import beef insulin without having ever met Mr. Groves.

The same could be asked of you: If you don't use beef insulin, what are YOU doing in this thread?
The ng is available to the public; all threads with no "beef only" ones. My impression was that it
was to serve as a source of information for all those with diabetes whether someone chose to post to
it or not.

Again, I stand by my opinion that friendship is not setting someone up or making disparaging remarks
about someone. Seems like we do not define it similarly and therefore will not be able to agree.

Jim Dumas <[email protected]!mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

sieweke said:

Learned about Mr. Groves while reading this ng about 6 months ago when reading the "Dave Groves
in hospital" thread. My one previous post well describes my opinion as to how his illness seemed
to be an opportunity for some people to divulge supposed aspects of his personal life. Wasn't
the one who originally posted the cited items referred to as nastiness by someone else. Primary
author of them is
Mr. Dumas, who said of his friend of 10 years:

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

"Now that you know I want to keep Groves away from the public, just e mail me if he shows and
I'll help to move him along to his official duties. I'll probably set up a thread to suck him
in, embarrass him in public and this will get him out of mhd for awhile."

I could read things like this for ten minutes or ten years and would be of the same opinion
about it--friends don't set friends up. The issue has nothing to do with any aspect of diabetes.
It has to do with character.

We're all entitled to our opinions.

So you've never met Dave Groves.

You should reserve your opinions until you meet both parties in any relationship. You should study
how they interact before you pass judgement on either party. If you make decisions with only half
the required data, you're not making an optimal decision.

In any case, the next question was: Do you use CP beef insulin? I take it you don't.

This begs the question: Why are you in this thread?

and I see Alan never apologized to you for jumping on your first post to
this thread. Some guys just are too egotistical to admit they were
wrong. I always apologize when I goof up, because it's the sporting
thing to do! 🙂 (Alan, are you reading this?)

dave

sieweke said:

Stand by the opinion that friends don't behave like this. Re: observance of interaction: Persons
serving on juries do not observe the person accused while the offense is committed; they must rely
on the evidence presented to them to come to their conclusions.

It is entirely possible for one to import beef insulin without having ever met Mr. Groves.

The same could be asked of you: If you don't use beef insulin, what are YOU doing in this thread?
The ng is available to the public; all threads with no "beef only" ones. My impression was that it
was to serve as a source of information for all those with diabetes whether someone chose to post
to it or not.

Again, I stand by my opinion that friendship is not setting someone up or making disparaging
remarks about someone. Seems like we do not define it similarly and therefore will not be able
to agree.

Jim Dumas <[email protected]!mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

sieweke said:

Learned about Mr. Groves while reading this ng about 6 months ago when reading the "Dave Groves
in hospital" thread. My one previous post well describes my opinion as to how his illness seemed
to be an opportunity for some people to divulge supposed aspects of his personal life. Wasn't the
one who originally posted the cited items referred to as nastiness by someone else. Primary
author of them is
Mr. Dumas, who said of his friend of 10 years:

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

"Now that you know I want to keep Groves away from the public, just e mail me if he shows and
I'll help to move him along to his official duties. I'll probably set up a thread to suck him in,
embarrass him in public and this will get him out of mhd for awhile."

I could read things like this for ten minutes or ten years and would be of the same opinion about
it--friends don't set friends up. The issue has nothing to do with any aspect of diabetes. It has
to do with character.

We're all entitled to our opinions.

So you've never met Dave Groves.

You should reserve your opinions until you meet both parties in any relationship. You should study
how they interact before you pass judgement on either party. If you make decisions with only half
the required data, you're not making an optimal decision.

In any case, the next question was: Do you use CP beef insulin? I take it you don't.

This begs the question: Why are you in this thread?

Bay Area Dave said:

and I see Alan never apologized to you for jumping on your first post to this thread. Some guys
just are too egotistical to admit they were wrong. I always apologize when I goof up, because it's
the sporting thing to do! 🙂 (Alan, are you reading this?)

dave

I'm reading - I never posted??? Seems to be my day for apologies - what did I do?

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

Alan Hardy, Alan; not YOU.

dave

Alan said:

Bay Area Dave said:

and I see Alan never apologized to you for jumping on your first post to this thread. Some guys
just are too egotistical to admit they were wrong. I always apologize when I goof up, because it's
the sporting thing to do! 🙂 (Alan, are you reading this?)

dave

I'm reading - I never posted??? Seems to be my day for apologies - what did I do?

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

sieweke said:

Stand by the opinion that friends don't behave like this. Re: observance of
interaction: Persons serving on juries do not observe the person accused while
the offense is committed; they must rely on the evidence presented to them to
come to their conclusions.

It is entirely possible for one to import beef insulin without having ever met
Mr. Groves.

The same could be asked of you: If you don't use beef insulin, what are
YOU doing in this thread? The ng is available to the public; all threads
with no "beef only" ones. My impression was that it was to serve as a
source of information for all those with diabetes whether someone chose to
post to it or not.

Again, I stand by my opinion that friendship is not setting someone up or
making disparaging remarks about someone. Seems like we do not define it
similarly and therefore will not be able to agree.

Dear Friend (I'm sure you don't mind),

Friendship is not a binary, on-or-off, black and white issue. There are countless
shades of gray.

But to keep you happy with your narrow mindset, Dave was not my friend.

That should end the argument. Best wishes,
--
Jim Dumas T1 4/86, background retinopathy, rarely hypoglycemic: <1/mo.
lispro+R+U+NPH daily, moderate exercise, typically <6% HbA1c

Bay Area Dave <[email hidden]> wrote on Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:55:38 GMT:

Quoted message said:

Alan Hardy, Alan; not YOU.

Nor me! But a happy Saturday to everybody!

Quoted message said:

dave

Quoted message said:

Alan wrote:

This is getting confusing!

--
Alan Mackenzie (Munich, Germany) Email: [email hidden]; to
decode, wherever there is a repeated letter (like "aa"😉,
remove half of them (leaving, say, "a"😉.

that's true! It wasn't you either!

dave

Alan Mackenzie said:

Bay Area Dave <[email hidden]> wrote on Fri, 05 Mar 2004
22:55:38 GMT:

Quoted message said:

Alan Hardy, Alan; not YOU.

Nor me! But a happy Saturday to everybody!

Quoted message said:

dave

Quoted message said:

Alan wrote:

This is getting confusing!

"sieweke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
ntSPAMMEmindspring.com&output=gplain

Quoted message said:

If you thought of yourself as a friend to him, am glad
that we don't know each other.

Who actually said they were a friend of DG? And even if
you're NOT a friend, or if you don't happen to like a
person, that doesn't mean you can't feel sorry that
he's died.

Reading the ng and searching on Dave Groves and his

Quoted message said:

DIF says otherwise. There are many more references than
these that say so. A friend doesn't act like this-NIMHO.

A friend doesn't act like what? Have discussion (heated or
otherwise) on a newsgroup? Dave Groves knew exactly what he
was doing when he came onto the newsgroups, but
unfortunateyl things didn't pan out as he wanted them. That
doesn't make him a bad person or anyone who argued with him
a bas person.

Friends DO argue, as do enemies, but the death of either
friend nor foe is still something to be unhappy about.

Beav

"Jim Dumas" <[email protected]!mindspring.com> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

sieweke said:

Learned about Mr. Groves while reading this ng about 6
months ago when reading the "Dave Groves in hospital"
thread. My one previous post well describes my opinion
as to how his illness seemed to be an opportunity for
some people to divulge supposed aspects of his personal
life. Wasn't the one who originally posted the cited
items referred to as nastiness by someone else. Primary
author of them is
Mr. Dumas, who said of his friend of 10 years:

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
ntSPAMMEmindspring.com&output=gplain

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Now that you know I want to keep Groves away from the
public, just e mail me if he shows and I'll help to move
him along to his official duties. I'll probably set up a
thread to suck him in, embarrass him in public and this
will get him out of mhd for awhile."

I could read things like this for ten minutes or ten
years and would be of the same opinion about it--friends
don't set friends up. The issue has nothing to do with
any aspect of diabetes. It has to do with character.

We're all entitled to our opinions.

So you've never met Dave Groves.

You should reserve your opinions until you meet both
parties in any relationship.

That's a bit of a low blow Jim. It's abviously not going to
happen is it?

You should study how they interact before you pass
judgement

Quoted message said:

on either party. If you make decisions with only half the
required data, you're not making an optimal decision.

In any case, the next question was: Do you use CP beef
insulin? I take it you don't.

This begs the question: Why are you in this thread?

But it's not your place to ask why ANYONE is involved in ANY
thread is it?

Come on Jim, accept what S said. you did say you'd set DG
up for an embarrasing moment, and he's right, friends
DON'T do that.

Beav