Obesity causes diabetes?

Ignoramus5937 said:

In article said:

I saw yet again another claim that obesity causes diabetes. However,
I'm
unsure that this is true in my case. In my situation, I developed
insulin
resistance. I believe I developed insulin resistance because of the
high
carb/low fat diet I ate when I got injured and could no longer exercise.
Then, I ballooned up (what else does your body do with 400-500+ grams of
carbs per day). Until I got injured, I weighed about 165. I ballooned
up
to 260 in the space of a few years. After a while, I realized that my
normal, supposedly "healthy" meals of pasta, brown rice, and beans was
causing my blood sugar to shoot through the roof. Then, I started low
carbing and almost immediately all the symptoms of insulin resistance
decreased and now they're almost gone (I will still have high blood
sugar
sometimes, if I overeat carbs).

So, did obesity cause my insulin resistance? I personally think that
diet, and not obesity, caused insulin resistance. What do you think?

You were probably insulin resistant to begin with.

Lack of exercise and possible muscle loss, exacerbated insulin
resistance.

Your diet, coupled with insulin resistance, caused you to gain weight.

Weight gain coupled with diet coupled with insulin resistance, further
progressed to the frank disease stage.

i

All of that is probably true, but it begs the question: Why was/am I
insulin resistant? Is it genetics? The high carb/low fat diet (my
belief)? Additionally, the theory is that obesity causes diabetes, but in
my case it seems as if I already had "diabetes" (in terms of insulin
resistance) BEFORE I was ever fat. This means that the "obesity causes
diabetes" link isn't true. It seems to be the other way around. Also,
does a low fat diet exacerbate pre-existing insulin resistance, or does it
cause insulin resistance? For instance, see this site:

http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/insulinresistance/#3

"Excess weight also contributes to insulin resistance because too much fat
interferes with muscles' ability to use insulin."

But if I had relatively little fat before I gained weight yet had insulin
resistance, why is it that I had insulin resistance? Certainly, my
insulin sensitivity has improved on low carb, and I've lost weight, but I
attribute this to low carb and not necessarily losing weight.

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply

I would guess both. The constant high insulin from the high carbs may lead
to the cells ignoring insulin. Then there are all the newly discovered
hormones the fat releases that probably cause insulin resistance too. Of
course the carbs caused the fat, so the high carbs are a more basic cause.
IMHO

"Bob in CT" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I saw yet again another claim that obesity causes diabetes. However, I'm
unsure that this is true in my case. In my situation, I developed insulin
resistance. I believe I developed insulin resistance because of the high
carb/low fat diet I ate when I got injured and could no longer exercise.
Then, I ballooned up (what else does your body do with 400-500+ grams of
carbs per day). Until I got injured, I weighed about 165. I ballooned up
to 260 in the space of a few years. After a while, I realized that my
normal, supposedly "healthy" meals of pasta, brown rice, and beans was
causing my blood sugar to shoot through the roof. Then, I started low
carbing and almost immediately all the symptoms of insulin resistance
decreased and now they're almost gone (I will still have high blood sugar
sometimes, if I overeat carbs).

So, did obesity cause my insulin resistance? I personally think that
diet, and not obesity, caused insulin resistance. What do you think?

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply

Bob in CT said:

I saw yet again another claim that obesity causes diabetes. However,
I'm unsure that this is true in my case. In my situation, I developed
insulin resistance. I believe I developed insulin resistance because of
the high carb/low fat diet I ate when I got injured and could no longer
exercise. Then, I ballooned up (what else does your body do with
400-500+ grams of carbs per day). Until I got injured, I weighed about
165. I ballooned up to 260 in the space of a few years. After a while,
I realized that my normal, supposedly "healthy" meals of pasta, brown
rice, and beans was causing my blood sugar to shoot through the roof.
Then, I started low carbing and almost immediately all the symptoms of
insulin resistance decreased and now they're almost gone (I will still
have high blood sugar sometimes, if I overeat carbs).

So, did obesity cause my insulin resistance? I personally think that
diet, and not obesity, caused insulin resistance. What do you think?

How many calories? Were all your meals and snacks, including the
"healthy" meals of pasta, brown rice and beans, under 2000 (estimate)
calories per day? Were your portions limited?

Rob said:

Bob in CT said:

I saw yet again another claim that obesity causes diabetes. However,
I'm unsure that this is true in my case. In my situation, I developed
insulin resistance. I believe I developed insulin resistance because
of the high carb/low fat diet I ate when I got injured and could no
longer exercise. Then, I ballooned up (what else does your body do
with 400-500+ grams of carbs per day). Until I got injured, I weighed
about 165. I ballooned up to 260 in the space of a few years. After a
while, I realized that my normal, supposedly "healthy" meals of pasta,
brown rice, and beans was causing my blood sugar to shoot through the
roof. Then, I started low carbing and almost immediately all the
symptoms of insulin resistance decreased and now they're almost gone (I
will still have high blood sugar sometimes, if I overeat carbs).

So, did obesity cause my insulin resistance? I personally think that
diet, and not obesity, caused insulin resistance. What do you think?

How many calories? Were all your meals and snacks, including the
"healthy" meals of pasta, brown rice and beans, under 2000 (estimate)
calories per day? Were your portions limited?

I don't know -- alas, I lost all my data from that period. I was counting
calories for much of that period but the data is gone. Personally, I
think that the 15 years of low fat dieting caused insulin resistance, but
I have no data; I simply have a feeling.

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply

Bob in CT said:

Ignoramus5937 said:

In article said:

I saw yet again another claim that obesity causes diabetes. However,
I'm
unsure that this is true in my case. In my situation, I developed
insulin
resistance. I believe I developed insulin resistance because of the
high
carb/low fat diet I ate when I got injured and could no longer exercise.
Then, I ballooned up (what else does your body do with 400-500+ grams of
carbs per day). Until I got injured, I weighed about 165. I
ballooned up
to 260 in the space of a few years. After a while, I realized that my
normal, supposedly "healthy" meals of pasta, brown rice, and beans was
causing my blood sugar to shoot through the roof. Then, I started low
carbing and almost immediately all the symptoms of insulin resistance
decreased and now they're almost gone (I will still have high blood
sugar
sometimes, if I overeat carbs).

So, did obesity cause my insulin resistance? I personally think that
diet, and not obesity, caused insulin resistance. What do you think?

You were probably insulin resistant to begin with.

Lack of exercise and possible muscle loss, exacerbated insulin
resistance.

Your diet, coupled with insulin resistance, caused you to gain weight.

Weight gain coupled with diet coupled with insulin resistance, further
progressed to the frank disease stage.

i

All of that is probably true, but it begs the question: Why was/am I
insulin resistant? Is it genetics? The high carb/low fat diet (my
belief)? Additionally, the theory is that obesity causes diabetes, but
in my case it seems as if I already had "diabetes" (in terms of insulin
resistance) BEFORE I was ever fat. This means that the "obesity causes
diabetes" link isn't true. It seems to be the other way around. Also,
does a low fat diet exacerbate pre-existing insulin resistance, or does
it cause insulin resistance? For instance, see this site:

http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/insulinresistance/#3

"Excess weight also contributes to insulin resistance because too much
fat interferes with muscles' ability to use insulin."

But if I had relatively little fat before I gained weight yet had
insulin resistance, why is it that I had insulin resistance? Certainly,
my insulin sensitivity has improved on low carb, and I've lost weight,
but I attribute this to low carb and not necessarily losing weight.

Studies I've read pretty much say all I have to do is reach age 40, pack
on the pounds and uh oh, type II. Could that say that Type II diabetes
is common to everyone? Treat the body poorly for long enough and it
just shows up in all of us?

Today even children are being diagnosed with it so the age requirement
is no longer. Perhaps they're treating the body poorly so early it's
showing up early.

As for low fat diets being the cause, I don't buy it. The low fat diets
being blamed are probably personal creations of low fat diets. Diets
created with little knowledge of low fat other than a label on their
food. Much like those today who think they're on a low carb diet
because their grocery cart is full of low carb labels. Low fat and low
carb labeled foods can still be loaded with calories. Calorie overload
causes obesity, obesity causes Type II diabetes.

There's also a connection to family history.
Are there skinny family members with type II or only the overweight?
Could following mom and dad's high calorie recipes cause this family
link instead of genetics?

"Bob in CT" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I saw yet again another claim that obesity causes diabetes. However, I'm
unsure that this is true in my case. In my situation, I developed insulin
resistance. I believe I developed insulin resistance because of the high
carb/low fat diet I ate when I got injured and could no longer exercise.
Then, I ballooned up (what else does your body do with 400-500+ grams of
carbs per day). Until I got injured, I weighed about 165. I ballooned up
to 260 in the space of a few years. After a while, I realized that my
normal, supposedly "healthy" meals of pasta, brown rice, and beans was
causing my blood sugar to shoot through the roof. Then, I started low
carbing and almost immediately all the symptoms of insulin resistance
decreased and now they're almost gone (I will still have high blood sugar
sometimes, if I overeat carbs).

So, did obesity cause my insulin resistance? I personally think that
diet, and not obesity, caused insulin resistance. What do you think?

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply

An oversimplification.

This is only my personal opinion, but I have done a lot of reading on the
subject over the last few years. I think that it is all too easy, too
tempting, and too pat to "blame the fat person for bringing on his/her
illness" and that if you look back in time, you will discover that their
bodies have been mishandling carbohydrates/blood glucose for many years
before actually hitting the criteria for a real diagnosis.

I know that years ago, I noticed extreme exhaustion after drinking coffee
and first being "up" from the caffeine, which was always followed by a
crash. I had sleep disturbances, and woke up very hungry and could only
sleep after eating something. I was hungry all the time. It would seem
irrational, since I had eaten a meal before, but was hungry again sooner
than everyone else. Diabetes makes you hungry, because your body is
screaming for nourishment but your cells can't use the glucose, since they
don't recognize the insulin anymore. There were a lot of vague symptoms,
and they somehow led to diabetes. Coincidence? Maybe not.

If you ask me there is just as much evidence to suggest that the body's
impaired handling of glucose results in being obese, as much as the
opposite.

According to some of the books I have read, I am not alone in this belief.
--
Regards,
Evelyn

(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox"😉

Bob in CT said:

I saw yet again another claim that obesity causes diabetes. However,
I'm unsure that this is true in my case. In my situation, I developed
insulin resistance. I believe I developed insulin resistance because of
the high carb/low fat diet I ate when I got injured and could no longer
exercise. Then, I ballooned up (what else does your body do with
400-500+ grams of carbs per day). Until I got injured, I weighed about
165. I ballooned up to 260 in the space of a few years. After a while,
I realized that my normal, supposedly "healthy" meals of pasta, brown
rice, and beans was causing my blood sugar to shoot through the roof.
Then, I started low carbing and almost immediately all the symptoms of
insulin resistance decreased and now they're almost gone (I will still
have high blood sugar sometimes, if I overeat carbs).

So, did obesity cause my insulin resistance? I personally think that
diet, and not obesity, caused insulin resistance. What do you think?

The way I have intrepreted what I have read is that if you have a
carbohydrate digestion problem (insulin not properly functioning), the
high carb diet makes the situation worse and you gain weight because of it.

So, obesity and messed up insulin balance are twins of the high
carbohydrate diet, in this intrepretation.

In people without the carbohydrate digestion problem supposidly the
insulin caused disturbances will not be present, although there could
still be weight gain from excess calories, if excess calories are consumed.

Jim

--
................................

Keepsake gift for young girls.
Unique and personal one-of-a-kind.
Builds strong minds 12 ways.
Guaranteed satisfaction
- courteous money back
- keep bonus gifts

http://www.alicebook.com

Bob in CT <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I saw yet again another claim that obesity causes diabetes. However, I'm
unsure that this is true in my case. In my situation, I developed insulin
resistance. I believe I developed insulin resistance because of the high
carb/low fat diet I ate when I got injured and could no longer exercise.
Then, I ballooned up (what else does your body do with 400-500+ grams of
carbs per day). Until I got injured, I weighed about 165. I ballooned up
to 260 in the space of a few years. After a while, I realized that my
normal, supposedly "healthy" meals of pasta, brown rice, and beans was
causing my blood sugar to shoot through the roof. Then, I started low
carbing and almost immediately all the symptoms of insulin resistance
decreased and now they're almost gone (I will still have high blood sugar
sometimes, if I overeat carbs).

So, did obesity cause my insulin resistance? I personally think that
diet, and not obesity, caused insulin resistance. What do you think?

Read this:

http://www.eje.org/eje/149/0099/1490099.pdf

Interesting stuff. Here is an interesting quote:

"A series of studies (33–36) report on the roles of high glucose
concentrations and different free fatty acids (FFAs) on b-cell
proliferation, apoptosis and function in cultured human islets. The
results showed that A series of studies (33–36) report on the roles of
high glucose concentrations and different free fatty acids (FFAs) on
b-cell proliferation, apoptosis and function in cultured human islets.
The results showed that prolonged exposure of cultured human islets to
high glucose levels increased b-cell apoptosis in a dose-dependent
manner. In addition, chronic exposure of cultured human islets to the
saturated fatty acid palmitic acid results in increased markers of
b-cell apoptosis and decreased b-cell proliferation. However, the
mono-unsaturated fatty acids palmitoleic acid and oleic acid did not
affect DNA fragmentation and induced b-cell proliferation. Moreover
when co-supplemented, each of the monounsaturated fatty acids
prevented apoptosis, prevented impairment of b-cell proliferation and
improved insulin secretion that was caused by palmitic acid and/or
hyperglycemia. In addition, chronic exposure of cultured human islets
to the saturated fatty acid palmitic acid results in increased markers
of b-cell apoptosis and decreased b-cell proliferation. However, the
mono-unsaturated fatty acids palmitoleic acid and oleic acid did not
affect DNA fragmentation and induced b-cell proliferation. Moreover
when co-supplemented, each of the monounsaturated fatty acids
prevented apoptosis, prevented impairment of b-cell proliferation and
improved insulin secretion that was caused by palmitic acid and/or
hyperglycemia."

Repeat and partial quote:
"prolonged exposure of cultured human islets to high glucose levels
increased b-cell apoptosis in a dose-dependent manner."

I don't think this could be any clearer. The more glucose b-cells were
exposed to glucose and the higher the "dose" the more apoptosis (cell
death) occurred. I gather that this is the not-so-mysterious-anymore
glucotoxicity that we've heard about. This statement seems to indicate
that there is a *direct* connection between blood sugar (glucose)
levels and b-cell death.

Repeat and partial quote:
"In addition, chronic exposure of cultured human islets to the
saturated fatty acid palmitic acid results in increased markers of
b-cell apoptosis and decreased b-cell proliferation."

Here we are told that *chronic* exposure to saturated fat cause
increased *markers* of b-cell death and decreased b-cell
proliferation. This isn't exactly saying that sat fat causes b-cell
death but only causes an increase in "markers" of b-cell death. Can we
assume that non-chronic exposures to saturated fat does not
neceassarily lead to b-cell death or significant increase in markers
of b-cell death?

Repeat and partial quote:
"the mono-unsaturated fatty acids palmitoleic acid and oleic acid did
not affect DNA fragmentation and induced b-cell proliferation.
Moreover when co-supplemented, each of the monounsaturated fatty acids
prevented apoptosis, prevented impairment of b-cell proliferation and
improved insulin secretion that was caused by palmitic acid and/or
hyperglycemia."

Mono-unsaturated fats prevented b-cell death and prevented b-cells
from suffering impaired proliferation and it improved insulin
secretion.

In conclusion,

1) Glucose impairs or kills b-cells directly dependent upon the dose
of glucose. Note that all carbs in the diet are converted to glucose.
The more the refined carbs the higher the blood glucose levels.

2) Chronic levels of saturated fats cause some stress to b-cells.

3) Mono-unsaturated fats protect and is necessary for the health of
b-cells.

Generally speaking, carbs cause b-cell death, fats protect against it.

Interesting how the authors make the statements quoted above and then
ignore the ramifications of their findings related to glucose and they
spend most of their discussion on fats. Its right under their noses.

TC

tcomeau generously shared with us this little ditty:

Quoted message said:

Bob in CT <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I saw yet again another claim that obesity causes diabetes.
However, I'm unsure that this is true in my case. In my situation,
I developed insulin resistance. I believe I developed insulin
resistance because of the high carb/low fat diet I ate when I got
injured and could no longer exercise. Then, I ballooned up (what
else does your body do with 400-500+ grams of carbs per day). Until
I got injured, I weighed about 165. I ballooned up to 260 in the
space of a few years. After a while, I realized that my normal,
supposedly "healthy" meals of pasta, brown rice, and beans was
causing my blood sugar to shoot through the roof. Then, I started
low carbing and almost immediately all the symptoms of insulin
resistance decreased and now they're almost gone (I will still have
high blood sugar sometimes, if I overeat carbs).

So, did obesity cause my insulin resistance? I personally think that
diet, and not obesity, caused insulin resistance. What do you think?

Read this:

http://www.eje.org/eje/149/0099/1490099.pdf

Interesting stuff. Here is an interesting quote:

"A series of studies (33–36) report on the roles of high glucose
concentrations and different free fatty acids (FFAs) on b-cell
proliferation, apoptosis and function in cultured human islets. The
results showed that A series of studies (33–36) report on the
roles of
high glucose concentrations and different free fatty acids (FFAs) on
b-cell proliferation, apoptosis and function in cultured human islets.
The results showed that prolonged exposure of cultured human islets to
high glucose levels increased b-cell apoptosis in a dose-dependent
manner. In addition, chronic exposure of cultured human islets to the
saturated fatty acid palmitic acid results in increased markers of
b-cell apoptosis and decreased b-cell proliferation. However, the
mono-unsaturated fatty acids palmitoleic acid and oleic acid did not
affect DNA fragmentation and induced b-cell proliferation. Moreover
when co-supplemented, each of the monounsaturated fatty acids
prevented apoptosis, prevented impairment of b-cell proliferation and
improved insulin secretion that was caused by palmitic acid and/or
hyperglycemia. In addition, chronic exposure of cultured human islets
to the saturated fatty acid palmitic acid results in increased markers
of b-cell apoptosis and decreased b-cell proliferation. However, the
mono-unsaturated fatty acids palmitoleic acid and oleic acid did not
affect DNA fragmentation and induced b-cell proliferation. Moreover
when co-supplemented, each of the monounsaturated fatty acids
prevented apoptosis, prevented impairment of b-cell proliferation and
improved insulin secretion that was caused by palmitic acid and/or
hyperglycemia."

Repeat and partial quote:
"prolonged exposure of cultured human islets to high glucose levels
increased b-cell apoptosis in a dose-dependent manner."

I don't think this could be any clearer. The more glucose b-cells were
exposed to glucose and the higher the "dose" the more apoptosis (cell
death) occurred. I gather that this is the not-so-mysterious-anymore
glucotoxicity that we've heard about. This statement seems to indicate
that there is a *direct* connection between blood sugar (glucose)
levels and b-cell death.

Repeat and partial quote:
"In addition, chronic exposure of cultured human islets to the
saturated fatty acid palmitic acid results in increased markers of
b-cell apoptosis and decreased b-cell proliferation."

Here we are told that *chronic* exposure to saturated fat cause
increased *markers* of b-cell death and decreased b-cell
proliferation. This isn't exactly saying that sat fat causes b-cell
death but only causes an increase in "markers" of b-cell death. Can we
assume that non-chronic exposures to saturated fat does not
neceassarily lead to b-cell death or significant increase in markers
of b-cell death?

Repeat and partial quote:
"the mono-unsaturated fatty acids palmitoleic acid and oleic acid did
not affect DNA fragmentation and induced b-cell proliferation.
Moreover when co-supplemented, each of the monounsaturated fatty acids
prevented apoptosis, prevented impairment of b-cell proliferation and
improved insulin secretion that was caused by palmitic acid and/or
hyperglycemia."

Mono-unsaturated fats prevented b-cell death and prevented b-cells
from suffering impaired proliferation and it improved insulin
secretion.

In conclusion,

1) Glucose impairs or kills b-cells directly dependent upon the dose
of glucose. Note that all carbs in the diet are converted to glucose.
The more the refined carbs the higher the blood glucose levels.

2) Chronic levels of saturated fats cause some stress to b-cells.

3) Mono-unsaturated fats protect and is necessary for the health of
b-cells.

Generally speaking, carbs cause b-cell death, fats protect against it.

Interesting how the authors make the statements quoted above and then
ignore the ramifications of their findings related to glucose and they
spend most of their discussion on fats. Its right under their noses.

TC

You see it repeatedly. That's why one should never read just the
conclusion, or the press release of same, but examine the entire thing.

--
revek
Your eyes are weary from staring at the CRT. You feel sleepy. Notice
how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The
opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt
otherwise.

What do you mean by obesity? I have an uncle who has been very muscular
all of this life....very little body fat, no gut....he is now a t2. While
you can say that he was heavy according to charts, it was due to extra
muscle mass, not fat. Diabetes run it my family, too. He has always been
very active.

I think diet has a bigger impact than people think.

Bob in CT wrote:
|| I saw yet again another claim that obesity causes diabetes.
|| However, I'm unsure that this is true in my case. In my situation,
|| I developed insulin resistance. I believe I developed insulin
|| resistance because of the high carb/low fat diet I ate when I got
|| injured and could no longer exercise. Then, I ballooned up (what
|| else does your body do with 400-500+ grams of carbs per day). Until
|| I got injured, I weighed about 165. I ballooned up to 260 in the
|| space of a few years. After a while, I realized that my normal,
|| supposedly "healthy" meals of pasta, brown rice, and beans was
|| causing my blood sugar to shoot through the roof. Then, I started
|| low carbing and almost immediately all the symptoms of insulin
|| resistance decreased and now they're almost gone (I will still have
|| high blood sugar sometimes, if I overeat carbs).
||
|| So, did obesity cause my insulin resistance? I personally think that
|| diet, and not obesity, caused insulin resistance. What do you think?
||
|| --
|| Bob in CT
|| Remove ".x" to reply

I've just put together a page that looks at some of the research relating to
the question of whether obesity causes diabetes or vice versa.

http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u/obesitymyth.htm

Let me know what you think of it!

-- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. Below goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes,
hba1c 5.7 .
Cut the carbs to respond to my email address!

Jenny's new site: What they Don't Tell You About Diabetes
http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u/

Jenny's Low Carb Diet Facts & Figures
http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/

Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What do you mean by obesity? I have an uncle who has been very muscular
all of this life....very little body fat, no gut....he is now a t2. While
you can say that he was heavy according to charts, it was due to extra
muscle mass, not fat. Diabetes run it my family, too. He has always been
very active.

I think diet has a bigger impact than people think.

Bob in CT wrote:
|| I saw yet again another claim that obesity causes diabetes.
|| However, I'm unsure that this is true in my case. In my situation,
|| I developed insulin resistance. I believe I developed insulin
|| resistance because of the high carb/low fat diet I ate when I got
|| injured and could no longer exercise. Then, I ballooned up (what
|| else does your body do with 400-500+ grams of carbs per day). Until
|| I got injured, I weighed about 165. I ballooned up to 260 in the
|| space of a few years. After a while, I realized that my normal,
|| supposedly "healthy" meals of pasta, brown rice, and beans was
|| causing my blood sugar to shoot through the roof. Then, I started
|| low carbing and almost immediately all the symptoms of insulin
|| resistance decreased and now they're almost gone (I will still have
|| high blood sugar sometimes, if I overeat carbs).
||
|| So, did obesity cause my insulin resistance? I personally think that
|| diet, and not obesity, caused insulin resistance. What do you think?
||
|| --
|| Bob in CT
|| Remove ".x" to reply

That's a very nice page, Jenny. Please consider posting it under a new
thread since some may not see it here (I almost didn't).

Jenny wrote:
|| I've just put together a page that looks at some of the research
|| relating to the question of whether obesity causes diabetes or vice
|| versa.
||
|| http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u/obesitymyth.htm
||
|| Let me know what you think of it!
||
|| -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. Below goal for weight. Type 2
|| diabetes, hba1c 5.7 .
|| Cut the carbs to respond to my email address!
||
|| Jenny's new site: What they Don't Tell You About Diabetes
|| http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u/
||
|| Jenny's Low Carb Diet Facts & Figures
|| http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/
||
|| Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
|| Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm
||
||
|| "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
|| news:[email hidden]...
||| What do you mean by obesity? I have an uncle who has been very
||| muscular all of this life....very little body fat, no gut....he is
||| now a t2. While you can say that he was heavy according to charts,
||| it was due to extra muscle mass, not fat. Diabetes run it my
||| family, too. He has always been very active.
|||
||| I think diet has a bigger impact than people think.
|||
||| Bob in CT wrote:
||||| I saw yet again another claim that obesity causes diabetes.
||||| However, I'm unsure that this is true in my case. In my
||||| situation,
||||| I developed insulin resistance. I believe I developed insulin
||||| resistance because of the high carb/low fat diet I ate when I got
||||| injured and could no longer exercise. Then, I ballooned up (what
||||| else does your body do with 400-500+ grams of carbs per day).
||||| Until
||||| I got injured, I weighed about 165. I ballooned up to 260 in the
||||| space of a few years. After a while, I realized that my normal,
||||| supposedly "healthy" meals of pasta, brown rice, and beans was
||||| causing my blood sugar to shoot through the roof. Then, I started
||||| low carbing and almost immediately all the symptoms of insulin
||||| resistance decreased and now they're almost gone (I will still
||||| have high blood sugar sometimes, if I overeat carbs).
|||||
||||| So, did obesity cause my insulin resistance? I personally think
||||| that diet, and not obesity, caused insulin resistance. What do
||||| you think?
|||||
||||| --
||||| Bob in CT
||||| Remove ".x" to reply

tcomeau wrote:
|| Bob in CT <[email hidden]> wrote in message
|| news:<[email hidden]>...
||| I saw yet again another claim that obesity causes diabetes.
||| However, I'm
||| unsure that this is true in my case. In my situation, I developed
||| insulin
||| resistance. I believe I developed insulin resistance because of
||| the high
||| carb/low fat diet I ate when I got injured and could no longer
||| exercise.
||| Then, I ballooned up (what else does your body do with 400-500+
||| grams of
||| carbs per day). Until I got injured, I weighed about 165. I
||| ballooned up
||| to 260 in the space of a few years. After a while, I realized that
||| my
||| normal, supposedly "healthy" meals of pasta, brown rice, and beans
||| was
||| causing my blood sugar to shoot through the roof. Then, I started
||| low
||| carbing and almost immediately all the symptoms of insulin
||| resistance
||| decreased and now they're almost gone (I will still have high blood
||| sugar
||| sometimes, if I overeat carbs).
|||
||| So, did obesity cause my insulin resistance? I personally think
||| that
||| diet, and not obesity, caused insulin resistance. What do you
||| think?
||
|| Read this:
||
|| http://www.eje.org/eje/149/0099/1490099.pdf
||
|| Interesting stuff. Here is an interesting quote:
||
|| "A series of studies (33–36) report on the roles of high
|| glucose
|| concentrations and different free fatty acids (FFAs) on b-cell
|| proliferation, apoptosis and function in cultured human islets. The
|| results showed that A series of studies (33–36) report on the
|| roles of
|| high glucose concentrations and different free fatty acids (FFAs) on
|| b-cell proliferation, apoptosis and function in cultured human
|| islets.
|| The results showed that prolonged exposure of cultured human islets
|| to
|| high glucose levels increased b-cell apoptosis in a dose-dependent
|| manner. In addition, chronic exposure of cultured human islets to the
|| saturated fatty acid palmitic acid results in increased markers of
|| b-cell apoptosis and decreased b-cell proliferation. However, the
|| mono-unsaturated fatty acids palmitoleic acid and oleic acid did not
|| affect DNA fragmentation and induced b-cell proliferation. Moreover
|| when co-supplemented, each of the monounsaturated fatty acids
|| prevented apoptosis, prevented impairment of b-cell proliferation and
|| improved insulin secretion that was caused by palmitic acid and/or
|| hyperglycemia. In addition, chronic exposure of cultured human islets
|| to the saturated fatty acid palmitic acid results in increased
|| markers
|| of b-cell apoptosis and decreased b-cell proliferation. However, the
|| mono-unsaturated fatty acids palmitoleic acid and oleic acid did not
|| affect DNA fragmentation and induced b-cell proliferation. Moreover
|| when co-supplemented, each of the monounsaturated fatty acids
|| prevented apoptosis, prevented impairment of b-cell proliferation and
|| improved insulin secretion that was caused by palmitic acid and/or
|| hyperglycemia."
||
|| Repeat and partial quote:
|| "prolonged exposure of cultured human islets to high glucose levels
|| increased b-cell apoptosis in a dose-dependent manner."
||
|| I don't think this could be any clearer. The more glucose b-cells
|| were
|| exposed to glucose and the higher the "dose" the more apoptosis (cell
|| death) occurred. I gather that this is the not-so-mysterious-anymore
|| glucotoxicity that we've heard about. This statement seems to
|| indicate
|| that there is a *direct* connection between blood sugar (glucose)
|| levels and b-cell death.
||
|| Repeat and partial quote:
|| "In addition, chronic exposure of cultured human islets to the
|| saturated fatty acid palmitic acid results in increased markers of
|| b-cell apoptosis and decreased b-cell proliferation."
||
|| Here we are told that *chronic* exposure to saturated fat cause
|| increased *markers* of b-cell death and decreased b-cell
|| proliferation. This isn't exactly saying that sat fat causes b-cell
|| death but only causes an increase in "markers" of b-cell death. Can
|| we
|| assume that non-chronic exposures to saturated fat does not
|| neceassarily lead to b-cell death or significant increase in markers
|| of b-cell death?
||
|| Repeat and partial quote:
|| "the mono-unsaturated fatty acids palmitoleic acid and oleic acid did
|| not affect DNA fragmentation and induced b-cell proliferation.
|| Moreover when co-supplemented, each of the monounsaturated fatty
|| acids
|| prevented apoptosis, prevented impairment of b-cell proliferation and
|| improved insulin secretion that was caused by palmitic acid and/or
|| hyperglycemia."
||
|| Mono-unsaturated fats prevented b-cell death and prevented b-cells
|| from suffering impaired proliferation and it improved insulin
|| secretion.
||
|| In conclusion,
||
|| 1) Glucose impairs or kills b-cells directly dependent upon the dose
|| of glucose. Note that all carbs in the diet are converted to glucose.
|| The more the refined carbs the higher the blood glucose levels.
||
|| 2) Chronic levels of saturated fats cause some stress to b-cells.
||
|| 3) Mono-unsaturated fats protect and is necessary for the health of
|| b-cells.
||
|| Generally speaking, carbs cause b-cell death, fats protect against
|| it.
||
|| Interesting how the authors make the statements quoted above and then
|| ignore the ramifications of their findings related to glucose and
|| they
|| spend most of their discussion on fats. Its right under their noses.
||
|| TC

It's not as simple as you make it out to be. Some eat all the carbs they
want and NEVER become diabetic.

tcomeau wrote:
|| Bob in CT <[email hidden]> wrote in message
|| news:<[email hidden]>...
||| I saw yet again another claim that obesity causes diabetes.
||| However, I'm
||| unsure that this is true in my case. In my situation, I developed
||| insulin
||| resistance. I believe I developed insulin resistance because of
||| the high
||| carb/low fat diet I ate when I got injured and could no longer
||| exercise.
||| Then, I ballooned up (what else does your body do with 400-500+
||| grams of
||| carbs per day). Until I got injured, I weighed about 165. I
||| ballooned up
||| to 260 in the space of a few years. After a while, I realized that
||| my
||| normal, supposedly "healthy" meals of pasta, brown rice, and beans
||| was
||| causing my blood sugar to shoot through the roof. Then, I started
||| low
||| carbing and almost immediately all the symptoms of insulin
||| resistance
||| decreased and now they're almost gone (I will still have high blood
||| sugar
||| sometimes, if I overeat carbs).
|||
||| So, did obesity cause my insulin resistance? I personally think
||| that
||| diet, and not obesity, caused insulin resistance. What do you
||| think?
||
|| Read this:
||
|| http://www.eje.org/eje/149/0099/1490099.pdf
||
|| Interesting stuff. Here is an interesting quote:
||
|| "A series of studies (33–36) report on the roles of high
|| glucose
|| concentrations and different free fatty acids (FFAs) on b-cell
|| proliferation, apoptosis and function in cultured human islets. The
|| results showed that A series of studies (33–36) report on the
|| roles of
|| high glucose concentrations and different free fatty acids (FFAs) on
|| b-cell proliferation, apoptosis and function in cultured human
|| islets.
|| The results showed that prolonged exposure of cultured human islets
|| to
|| high glucose levels increased b-cell apoptosis in a dose-dependent
|| manner. In addition, chronic exposure of cultured human islets to the
|| saturated fatty acid palmitic acid results in increased markers of
|| b-cell apoptosis and decreased b-cell proliferation. However, the
|| mono-unsaturated fatty acids palmitoleic acid and oleic acid did not
|| affect DNA fragmentation and induced b-cell proliferation. Moreover
|| when co-supplemented, each of the monounsaturated fatty acids
|| prevented apoptosis, prevented impairment of b-cell proliferation and
|| improved insulin secretion that was caused by palmitic acid and/or
|| hyperglycemia. In addition, chronic exposure of cultured human islets
|| to the saturated fatty acid palmitic acid results in increased
|| markers
|| of b-cell apoptosis and decreased b-cell proliferation. However, the
|| mono-unsaturated fatty acids palmitoleic acid and oleic acid did not
|| affect DNA fragmentation and induced b-cell proliferation. Moreover
|| when co-supplemented, each of the monounsaturated fatty acids
|| prevented apoptosis, prevented impairment of b-cell proliferation and
|| improved insulin secretion that was caused by palmitic acid and/or
|| hyperglycemia."
||
|| Repeat and partial quote:
|| "prolonged exposure of cultured human islets to high glucose levels
|| increased b-cell apoptosis in a dose-dependent manner."
||
|| I don't think this could be any clearer. The more glucose b-cells
|| were
|| exposed to glucose and the higher the "dose" the more apoptosis (cell
|| death) occurred. I gather that this is the not-so-mysterious-anymore
|| glucotoxicity that we've heard about. This statement seems to
|| indicate
|| that there is a *direct* connection between blood sugar (glucose)
|| levels and b-cell death.
||
|| Repeat and partial quote:
|| "In addition, chronic exposure of cultured human islets to the
|| saturated fatty acid palmitic acid results in increased markers of
|| b-cell apoptosis and decreased b-cell proliferation."
||
|| Here we are told that *chronic* exposure to saturated fat cause
|| increased *markers* of b-cell death and decreased b-cell
|| proliferation. This isn't exactly saying that sat fat causes b-cell
|| death but only causes an increase in "markers" of b-cell death. Can
|| we
|| assume that non-chronic exposures to saturated fat does not
|| neceassarily lead to b-cell death or significant increase in markers
|| of b-cell death?
||
|| Repeat and partial quote:
|| "the mono-unsaturated fatty acids palmitoleic acid and oleic acid did
|| not affect DNA fragmentation and induced b-cell proliferation.
|| Moreover when co-supplemented, each of the monounsaturated fatty
|| acids
|| prevented apoptosis, prevented impairment of b-cell proliferation and
|| improved insulin secretion that was caused by palmitic acid and/or
|| hyperglycemia."
||
|| Mono-unsaturated fats prevented b-cell death and prevented b-cells
|| from suffering impaired proliferation and it improved insulin
|| secretion.
||
|| In conclusion,
||
|| 1) Glucose impairs or kills b-cells directly dependent upon the dose
|| of glucose. Note that all carbs in the diet are converted to glucose.
|| The more the refined carbs the higher the blood glucose levels.
||
|| 2) Chronic levels of saturated fats cause some stress to b-cells.
||
|| 3) Mono-unsaturated fats protect and is necessary for the health of
|| b-cells.
||
|| Generally speaking, carbs cause b-cell death, fats protect against
|| it.
||
|| Interesting how the authors make the statements quoted above and then
|| ignore the ramifications of their findings related to glucose and
|| they
|| spend most of their discussion on fats. Its right under their noses.
||
|| TC

It's not as simple as you make it out to be. Some eat all the carbs they
want and NEVER become diabetic.

Roger,

Glad you like it!

I'm tidying up the new site before I promote it. Long experience teaches me
that I always miss some howler of a mistake when a site is new. When I'm
happy with it, I'm going to post about it.

Is there any other topic you can think of that I might consider putting on
the page? My goal, among others, was to stop having to write the same
messages over and over and to put the information in a central place that
can just be referred to in a link. I also wanted to put in the links to the
research once and for all so I wouldn't have to keep looking them up.

-- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. Below goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes,
hba1c 5.7 .
Cut the carbs to respond to my email address!

Jenny's new site: What they Don't Tell You About Diabetes
http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u/

Jenny's Low Carb Diet Facts & Figures
http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/

Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That's a very nice page, Jenny. Please consider posting it under a new
thread since some may not see it here (I almost didn't).

Jenny wrote:
|| I've just put together a page that looks at some of the research
|| relating to the question of whether obesity causes diabetes or vice
|| versa.
||
|| http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u/obesitymyth.htm
||
|| Let me know what you think of it!
||
|| -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. Below goal for weight. Type 2
|| diabetes, hba1c 5.7 .
|| Cut the carbs to respond to my email address!
||
|| Jenny's new site: What they Don't Tell You About Diabetes
|| http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u/
||
|| Jenny's Low Carb Diet Facts & Figures
|| http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/
||
|| Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
|| Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm
||
||
|| "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
|| news:[email hidden]...
||| What do you mean by obesity? I have an uncle who has been very
||| muscular all of this life....very little body fat, no gut....he is
||| now a t2. While you can say that he was heavy according to charts,
||| it was due to extra muscle mass, not fat. Diabetes run it my
||| family, too. He has always been very active.
|||
||| I think diet has a bigger impact than people think.
|||
||| Bob in CT wrote:
||||| I saw yet again another claim that obesity causes diabetes.
||||| However, I'm unsure that this is true in my case. In my
||||| situation,
||||| I developed insulin resistance. I believe I developed insulin
||||| resistance because of the high carb/low fat diet I ate when I got
||||| injured and could no longer exercise. Then, I ballooned up (what
||||| else does your body do with 400-500+ grams of carbs per day).
||||| Until
||||| I got injured, I weighed about 165. I ballooned up to 260 in the
||||| space of a few years. After a while, I realized that my normal,
||||| supposedly "healthy" meals of pasta, brown rice, and beans was
||||| causing my blood sugar to shoot through the roof. Then, I started
||||| low carbing and almost immediately all the symptoms of insulin
||||| resistance decreased and now they're almost gone (I will still
||||| have high blood sugar sometimes, if I overeat carbs).
|||||
||||| So, did obesity cause my insulin resistance? I personally think
||||| that diet, and not obesity, caused insulin resistance. What do
||||| you think?
|||||
||||| --
||||| Bob in CT
||||| Remove ".x" to reply

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >

Quoted message said:

It's not as simple as you make it out to be. Some eat all the carbs they
want and NEVER become diabetic.

Why is it not that simple? Explain please? And how do you know that
some eat all the carbs they want and never become diabetic? Where did
you get this information from? Can you show some science to back up
these sweeping generalities? Are you differentiating refined carbs
from whole food carbs? Are you aware that that one of the points I
made was that fats protect the b cells and glucose kills them, thus a
diet high in good fats can protect from some, possible significant,
glucose damage? Thus a diet with moderate amounts of refined carbs and
no protective fats will cause more damage than the same diet with more
protective fats. There is a yin and a yang at work here.

TC

tcomeau,

http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u/ukpds.htm has links to a major pancreas
autopsy study showing that some obese people never develop diabetes because
they are able to grow new beta cells and thus only develop slightly impaired
glucose tolerance. Only people whose beta cells die upon attempting to
reproduce appear to move on to full-fledged diabetes.

-- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. Below goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes,
hba1c 5.7 .
Cut the carbs to respond to my email address!

Jenny's new site: What they Don't Tell You About Diabetes
http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u/

Jenny's Low Carb Diet Facts & Figures
http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/

Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm

"tcomeau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >

Quoted message said:

It's not as simple as you make it out to be. Some eat all the carbs

they

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

want and NEVER become diabetic.

Why is it not that simple? Explain please? And how do you know that
some eat all the carbs they want and never become diabetic? Where did
you get this information from? Can you show some science to back up
these sweeping generalities? Are you differentiating refined carbs
from whole food carbs? Are you aware that that one of the points I
made was that fats protect the b cells and glucose kills them, thus a
diet high in good fats can protect from some, possible significant,
glucose damage? Thus a diet with moderate amounts of refined carbs and
no protective fats will cause more damage than the same diet with more
protective fats. There is a yin and a yang at work here.

TC

tcomeau wrote:
|| "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >
||| It's not as simple as you make it out to be. Some eat all the
||| carbs they want and NEVER become diabetic.
||
|| Why is it not that simple? Explain please? And how do you know that
|| some eat all the carbs they want and never become diabetic? Where did
|| you get this information from? Can you show some science to back up
|| these sweeping generalities?

Sweeping generalities? I know plenty of people who eat lots of carb and
aren't diabetic and have been doing so for years.

You're the one making sweeping generalizations and making yourself seems of
some superior intellect because you can discern what is invisible to many
researchers.

Don't you think if it were that simple that some research would have
published it by now if for no other reason than for reputation's sake?

Are you differentiating refined carbs
|| from whole food carbs? Are you aware that that one of the points I
|| made was that fats protect the b cells and glucose kills them, thus a
|| diet high in good fats can protect from some, possible significant,
|| glucose damage?

Are you aware that many non-diabetic people don't pay attention to the types
of fats they eat, yet eat many carbs, and remain non-diabetic for years?

Thus a diet with moderate amounts of refined carbs
|| and
|| no protective fats will cause more damage than the same diet with
|| more protective fats. There is a yin and a yang at work here.

I don't doubt the yin and yang part, but it is still not as simple as you've
made it out to be.