Nutrition for vegetarian runner

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 19:06:58 -0400, "Jane" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I'm curious to know if the vegetarian runners on the list are concerned
about getting adequate protein and if you augment your diet with supplements
such as whey protein. I've been experiencing a rather steep decline in
stamina of late and wonder if this might be a factor. I think my diet is
pretty good but it is definitely rather light on protein. I have been to
the doctor and had some tests done a few months back. They normally call if
there's a problem so I can probably safely discount some of the obvious
medical possibilities (iron, b12, thyroid, etc)

I ran 2 half marathons last year. This year I can barely do 5 km. without
walk breaks. However I'm going out 4-5 mornings a week and my running is a
little better than it was. This lack of stamina also corresponds to a time
I've been taking voltaren, a NSAID. There doesn't seem to be anything in
the literature to indicate this should be a side effect however.

Anyway, I'd really be interested to know how other vegetarians are doing.

ok. i don't count as a vegetarian and neither do you if you are
considering whey products. i guess we are not meat eaters.

you say you are "light" on protein. well, how did you come up
with this? what requirement do you think you fail to meet?
and why would you think it is linked to "lack of stamina"?

i'm not asking this just to be argumentative. these are the
important questions. i supplement. i get 1 gram of protein per
pound of body weight. that's loads in anybodies opinion.
i use whey to get the numbers up. there are plenty of
ways for a veggie to get protein. whey is just the simplest.

i would look elsewhere. my sleep would need to be perfect.
other nutrition including caloric intake is key. stress in my life?
motivation. there are lots of factors. why do you take
walk breaks? is your heart rate too high? or are you
just mentally tired. wear a hrm and get some info on what's going
on inside.

good luck too...thehick

frank-in-toronto said:

ok. i don't count as a vegetarian and neither do you if you are
considering whey products.

Uh, Frank I believe you meant to say he wouldn't count as a *vegan* if
he was consuming whey products. One can certainly be considered a
vegetarian if one is consuming dairy products...

Tim

Jane said:

I'm curious to know if the vegetarian runners on the list are concerned
about getting adequate protein and if you augment your diet with supplements
such as whey protein.

I use a cheap whey protein concentrate powder but ultimately it's just cheap
food.

Quoted message said:

I've been experiencing a rather steep decline in
stamina of late and wonder if this might be a factor. I think my diet is
pretty good but it is definitely rather light on protein. I have been to

Aim to get no less than 0.8gm protein per pound of body weight.

I doubt that protein is a factor in this decline, but maybe you should be
getting more protein anyway.

I also take a multivitamin. Doesn't cost much, and it's a good ensurance
policy.

Quoted message said:

I ran 2 half marathons last year. This year I can barely do 5 km. without

Could you describe your current training ? For example, describe the previous
training week.

How about your training last year ? For example, could you describe your
training 2 weeks before one of those half marathons ?

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

On 29 Aug 2005 17:14:10 -0700, "Tim Campbell" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

frank-in-toronto said:

ok. i don't count as a vegetarian and neither do you if you are
considering whey products.

Uh, Frank I believe you meant to say he wouldn't count as a *vegan* if
he was consuming whey products. One can certainly be considered a
vegetarian if one is consuming dairy products...

i agree that the definition of vegetarian is a bit loose.
you're right. it was a quick sentence and really meant just as
filler suitable as an entry to my thoughts. i eat fish too.
just nothing with legs. beats me why that definition
appealed to me. but it makes it easy to explain to
people what i don't eat. i just wiggle my fingers and
say "does it walk? i don't eat it".

vegetarianism takes a bit of work. i find it a better way to
control calories because there's so much that is simply
don't have. i know i'm geting lots of fibre (there's ample
evidence of that).

the real problem for vegetarians is to get enough iron. not protein.
the only people who think you'll have trouble getting enough
protein are avid meat eaters (not that there's anything
wrong with that).
....thehick

----- Original Message -----
From: "frank-in-toronto" <[email hidden]>
Newsgroups: rec.running
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: Nutrition for vegetarian runner

Quoted message said:

you say you are "light" on protein. well, how did you come up
with this? what requirement do you think you fail to meet?
and why would you think it is linked to "lack of stamina

I know my protein intake is relatively low although I haven't calculated it
lately. I don't know that it's linked to lack of stamina. That's why I was
asking.

Quoted message said:

i'm not asking this just to be argumentative. these are the
important questions. i supplement. i get 1 gram of protein per
pound of body weight. that's loads in anybodies opinion.
i use whey to get the numbers up. there are plenty of
ways for a veggie to get protein. whey is just the simplest.

Ah, so you are careful to get enough protein. Why do you think you need 1
gm/lb? What would happen if you didn't get it?

Quoted message said:

i would look elsewhere. my sleep would need to be perfect.
other nutrition including caloric intake is key. stress in my life?
motivation. there are lots of factors. why do you take
walk breaks? is your heart rate too high? or are you
just mentally tired. wear a hrm and get some info on what's going
on inside.

I'm wearing a heartrate monitor and keeping within range. I'm keeping it
quite low (alarm at 135) in an attempt to be able to keep running and this
is helping. I'm now mostly able to run 5 km without stopping although it
means I'm running really slowly. I don't see increasing my distance in the
near future, that's for sure. This has been disappointing since my brother
and I were going to do the
Victoria half marathon in October but I just wasn't able to do the training.

Quoted message said:

good luck too...thehick

Thanks.

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Could you describe your current training ? For example, describe the
previous
training week.

How about your training last year ? For example, could you describe your
training 2 weeks before one of those half marathons ?

For the first half I trained with a group and we had 2 runs a week together
and the rest of the week I ran on my own. (2 - 3 times). The group did a
long run on Sunday - building towards the half marathon distance and another
run in the week - it was hills or speed or just a group run. I ran on my
own for the second half but tried to roughly follow the same program.

Earlier this year I had so much trouble running I was ready to throw in the
towel but decided to do 5 km several tunes a week (walk, run, whatever)
since I had to take the dog out anyway. So I'm now doing 5 km 4-5 times a
week. And it is going better. I'm mostly running although a lot slower and
I managed to get back on a trail that I like. (bug season is over) It's a
bit more challenging than the back country road I was running - lots of
small hills. Anyway, I just think I should be doing a lot better than I
am and will probably supplement the protein and see if that helps.

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:10:56 -0400, "Jane" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

....

Quoted message said:

Ah, so you are careful to get enough protein. Why do you think you need 1
gm/lb? What would happen if you didn't get it?

....
I think NOTHING would happen. It's just a number that a bit
above the RDA guidelines, i have it with cereal so it's
like a sweetener too and i kind of have the habit. i don't
really think it's SO important. Just no reason not to
get what I consider the right amount. I try to keep
my fat intake low so I don't have too many calories
and I let the carbs go where they will. I have no
blood glucose issues so i don't have to watch that.

about the only thing i sort-of worry about is whether
i'm getting all those un-named micro-nutrients. my diet
is a little repetitive.

one thing i do when i really want to run but feel
like i should walk or stop is just ask myself what would
happen if i continued running. would i die? would i
fall down? usually the answer is: nothing would happen.
and i get myself thru these tough moments. or i talk
myself into just running another minute. or going slower.

anything but stop (ok. sometimes i do pack it in).

maybe these ideas will help. maybe they won't. only
you can know if your stopping is due to a physical
cause or if it's at least partially mental. why can't you go slower.
the alternative to running is not just walking or sitting down.
you could just slow down.
....thehick

"Jane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

----- Original Message -----
From: "frank-in-toronto" <[email hidden]>
Newsgroups: rec.running
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: Nutrition for vegetarian runner

Quoted message said:

you say you are "light" on protein. well, how did you come up
with this? what requirement do you think you fail to meet?
and why would you think it is linked to "lack of stamina

I know my protein intake is relatively low although I haven't calculated it
lately. I don't know that it's linked to lack of stamina. That's why I was
asking.

Then checking protein intake out would be a good idea. If you are low on
protein, you'd find recovery slow and injuries not going away, maybe even skin
problems. Recovery from viruses also likely to be slow. There can be a
protein absorption problem if you eat heaps of roughage...

Stamina, maybe, but it would be worth checking iron levels, etc. [I do this by donating
blood, so I get a heme level at the same time]. Otherwise, seeing an MD (one that
knows what running and training actually are) or a nutritionist is the next step. Your
doctor didn't call you back after tests a few months back, but you would need to
prompt them by saying you have a stamina issue.

Also, you didn't mention your age.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

i'm not asking this just to be argumentative. these are the
important questions. i supplement. i get 1 gram of protein per
pound of body weight. that's loads in anybodies opinion.
i use whey to get the numbers up. there are plenty of
ways for a veggie to get protein. whey is just the simplest.

Ah, so you are careful to get enough protein. Why do you think you need 1
gm/lb? What would happen if you didn't get it?

1 gm/lb is pretty high. Half that is fine for almost everyone, except body
builders (or fad diet junkies).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

i would look elsewhere. my sleep would need to be perfect.
other nutrition including caloric intake is key. stress in my life?
motivation. there are lots of factors. why do you take
walk breaks? is your heart rate too high? or are you
just mentally tired. wear a hrm and get some info on what's going
on inside.

I'm wearing a heartrate monitor and keeping within range. I'm keeping it
quite low (alarm at 135) in an attempt to be able to keep running and this
is helping. I'm now mostly able to run 5 km without stopping although it
means I'm running really slowly. I don't see increasing my distance in the
near future, that's for sure. This has been disappointing since my brother
and I were going to do the
Victoria half marathon in October but I just wasn't able to do the training.

Depending on your Max HR, 135 is pretty low. Maybe you are getting used
to going too easy...

If you don't know Max HR, running at a 'can just maintain conversation' level
is as slow as you should get. Some 200m or so reps at 20% faster pace (or
some hill) will build strength.

As other suggested, you could try a month with whey protein to take you over
0.8gm/Kg, and see how that works. It doesn't cost much.

On NSAIDs: There are two concerns. Firstly the pain killers can be masking
injuries which you repeatedly aggrevate (but don't notice much). Secondly, some
NSAIDs (Voltaren included) cause breathing difficulties for some people - an
allergic reaction which is a kind of induced asthma.

Tom (vegetarian since 1980, running fine).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

good luck too...thehick

Thanks.

Jane said:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Could you describe your current training ? For example, describe the
previous
training week.

How about your training last year ? For example, could you describe your
training 2 weeks before one of those half marathons ?

For the first half I trained with a group and we had 2 runs a week together
and the rest of the week I ran on my own. (2 - 3 times). The group did a
long run on Sunday - building towards the half marathon distance and another
run in the week - it was hills or speed or just a group run. I ran on my
own for the second half but tried to roughly follow the same program.

Having a group to do long runs with, and doing speed work both probably helped.

I'd suggest keeping the pace very slow for now -- if you're having trouble
running continuously, drop back to about 12 minutes per mile or so and see
how it goes.

Also, try to do a longer run each week. Don't run the same distance on each
outing.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Tom,
Great information. I've been a vegetarian a little longer than you have
(not sure the exact year). I have also been anaemic in the past but
believed my doctor's office would have called if this was the case. I will
check it out.

"Tom Osborn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

"Jane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

----- Original Message -----
From: "frank-in-toronto" <[email hidden]>
Newsgroups: rec.running
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: Nutrition for vegetarian runner

Quoted message said:

you say you are "light" on protein. well, how did you come up
with this? what requirement do you think you fail to meet?
and why would you think it is linked to "lack of stamina

I know my protein intake is relatively low although I haven't calculated
it
lately. I don't know that it's linked to lack of stamina. That's why I
was
asking.

Then checking protein intake out would be a good idea. If you are low on
protein, you'd find recovery slow and injuries not going away, maybe even
skin
problems. Recovery from viruses also likely to be slow. There can be a
protein absorption problem if you eat heaps of roughage...

Stamina, maybe, but it would be worth checking iron levels, etc. [I do this
by donating
blood, so I get a heme level at the same time]. Otherwise, seeing an MD (one
that
knows what running and training actually are) or a nutritionist is the next
step. Your
doctor didn't call you back after tests a few months back, but you would
need to
prompt them by saying you have a stamina issue.

Also, you didn't mention your age.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

i'm not asking this just to be argumentative. these are the
important questions. i supplement. i get 1 gram of protein per
pound of body weight. that's loads in anybodies opinion.
i use whey to get the numbers up. there are plenty of
ways for a veggie to get protein. whey is just the simplest.

Ah, so you are careful to get enough protein. Why do you think you need 1
gm/lb? What would happen if you didn't get it?

1 gm/lb is pretty high. Half that is fine for almost everyone, except body
builders (or fad diet junkies).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

i would look elsewhere. my sleep would need to be perfect.
other nutrition including caloric intake is key. stress in my life?
motivation. there are lots of factors. why do you take
walk breaks? is your heart rate too high? or are you
just mentally tired. wear a hrm and get some info on what's going
on inside.

I'm wearing a heartrate monitor and keeping within range. I'm keeping it
quite low (alarm at 135) in an attempt to be able to keep running and
this
is helping. I'm now mostly able to run 5 km without stopping although it
means I'm running really slowly. I don't see increasing my distance in the
near future, that's for sure. This has been disappointing since my
brother
and I were going to do the
Victoria half marathon in October but I just wasn't able to do the
training.

Depending on your Max HR, 135 is pretty low. Maybe you are getting used
to going too easy...

If you don't know Max HR, running at a 'can just maintain conversation'
level
is as slow as you should get. Some 200m or so reps at 20% faster pace (or
some hill) will build strength.

As other suggested, you could try a month with whey protein to take you over
0.8gm/Kg, and see how that works. It doesn't cost much.

On NSAIDs: There are two concerns. Firstly the pain killers can be masking
injuries which you repeatedly aggrevate (but don't notice much). Secondly,
some
NSAIDs (Voltaren included) cause breathing difficulties for some people - an
allergic reaction which is a kind of induced asthma.

Tom (vegetarian since 1980, running fine).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

good luck too...thehick

Thanks.

Let's do the numbers first. What is your actual weight and protein
consumption per day.

i

Jane said:

I'm curious to know if the vegetarian runners on the list are concerned
about getting adequate protein and if you augment your diet with supplements
such as whey protein. I've been experiencing a rather steep decline in
stamina of late and wonder if this might be a factor. I think my diet is
pretty good but it is definitely rather light on protein. I have been to
the doctor and had some tests done a few months back. They normally call if
there's a problem so I can probably safely discount some of the obvious
medical possibilities (iron, b12, thyroid, etc)

I ran 2 half marathons last year. This year I can barely do 5 km. without
walk breaks. However I'm going out 4-5 mornings a week and my running is a
little better than it was. This lack of stamina also corresponds to a time
I've been taking voltaren, a NSAID. There doesn't seem to be anything in
the literature to indicate this should be a side effect however.

Anyway, I'd really be interested to know how other vegetarians are doing.

Jane

--
Running Log: http://igor.chudov.com/weightloss/exercise.txt

Jane, call your doctors office and ask them to fax you the last blood
test results. They may have called you and some voice mail got lost,
or they could have just forgotten to call, in any case you ought to
know just what are he results of your blood test.

i

frank-in-toronto said:

vegetarianism takes a bit of work. i find it a better way to
control calories because there's so much that is simply
don't have.

This is true...I find it tough to lose weight while eating meat, even
with all my running...

frank-in-toronto said:

i eat fish too. just nothing with legs.

Mmmmmm, snake. Haven't had snake in years. Eel, all the time. Snake,
not so often.

Tim Campbell said:

frank-in-toronto said:

vegetarianism takes a bit of work. i find it a better way to
control calories because there's so much that is simply
don't have.

This is true...I find it tough to lose weight while eating meat, even
with all my running...

I am eating low carb, all meat that I want, and do not gain weight...
That's actually very nice.

i

"Mmmmmm, snake.
Haven't had snake in years. Eel, all the time.
Snake,
Not so often."
~ CP

"An edge or little altitude,
Prolonged over mountain laterally or a range of mountains.
An impulse of hasty,

Swirling pudding wantonly,
To recommend, like if nibble with teeth,

So as too incite, excite, ignite
With the action or the undergrowth
Or development accelerated

So as to stimulate,
Or to put teeth to, to nibble."
~ Laika

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

frank-in-toronto said:

i eat fish too. just nothing with legs.

Mmmmmm, snake. Haven't had snake in years. Eel, all the time. Snake,
not so often.

Rattlesnake is good, actually.

As for the OP, I suggest going to a nutritionist and/or doctor and see
what they say. Half-marathon-ish training is a significant nutritional
load, and protein supplements are recommended for people who eat
omnivorously. For vegetarian diets, protein supplements would be an order
of magnitude more crucial.
I suggest the doctor since there are many possible issues that a blood
test or two would go far to diagnose (or conversely, show that your diet is
on track).

Dave

"frank-in-toronto" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >
say "does it walk? i don't eat it".

Quoted message said:

the real problem for vegetarians is to get enough iron. not protein.

Frank, protein is, or can be, a problem if a variety of fruits and carbs
are not eaten. If Jane feels she may be missing nutrients then I say she
vegetarian in principle and needs to do some serious homework.

We have a significant number of people on the ultra circuit that a
vegetarians/vegans to include Scott Jurek who just won the badwater 135
race. eat a variety of carbs to insure you get all your aminos and you
have a non-issue.

Quoted message said:

the only people who think you'll have trouble getting enough
protein are avid meat eaters (not that there's anything
wrong with that).

Really? When did meat become a poor source of protein?

-Doug

David Geesaman said:

Rattlesnake is good, actually.

One bit you and died, so you ate it?

TBR

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."