NP Micro burst

jetnjeff said:

Is this due to the fact that NP uses 30 second smothing and one cycle was 30 seconds (15 o 15 off)?

Yes, it is. 🙂

Thanks, frenchyge

jetnjeff said:

Hello,

I am Jeff OHara from NJ. Like MTBing Skiing DH and XC etc.

Now down to business.

I had a n athelet do 15 second microbursts 300 on 1oo off for 15 min intervals on a pomputrainer. Usig CP software, I expected the NP to be higher than the AP for the intervals, but they were within one Watt.

Is this due to the fact that NP uses 30 second smothing and one cycle was 30 seconds (15 o 15 off)?

Jeff

As frenchyge succinctly explained, it is. In fact, the physiological responses to 15 s on/off "micro"intervals were something that I specifically had in mind when devising the algorithm.

acoggan said:

As frenchyge succinctly explained, it is. In fact, the physiological responses to 15 s on/off "micro"intervals were something that I specifically had in mind when devising the algorithm.

So that is why you suggested that we try this at the Boston Seminar. I find Micro bursts have a higer PE, personally. After a recent 20 minute AT test I was unable to do Micro bust but could do another standard AT interval. Going by atheletes power meter down load, the IF for the MB intervals was close to one, .997 and 1.008. So what would quantify the difference?

acoggan said:

As frenchyge succinctly explained, it is. In fact, the physiological responses to 15 s on/off "micro"intervals were something that I specifically had in mind when devising the algorithm.

Hi Andy/frenchyge
Does this impact NP and TSS for a session of sprint training where efforts are <30s duration? e.g. I just did 3 x 15s standing starts and 8 x 200m flys.

It would seem I am getting fair credit for it (CP says 109 TSS points for the session). Session included a warm up of 26min at 0.8 IF and the efforts above - anything else was just rolling around the track with no effort at all although each sprint had a rolling start of a couple of laps at a recovery power level.

I am curious as to what others think about their TSS from sprint training.

I just want to understand my overall training load and the impact this type of training has on the TSS. I like objective measures, as long as I am confident that they work.

jetnjeff said:

So that is why you suggested that we try this at the Boston Seminar. I find Micro bursts have a higer PE, personally. After a recent 20 minute AT test I was unable to do Micro bust but could do another standard AT interval. Going by atheletes power meter down load, the IF for the MB intervals was close to one, .997 and 1.008. So what would quantify the difference?

How well do you handle all those accelerations? Do you train to do all those accelerations? Do you want to be better at all those accelerations? A higher cadence (less resistance) may help you the most in the short-term.

jetnjeff said:

So that is why you suggested that we try this at the Boston Seminar. I find Micro bursts have a higer PE, personally. After a recent 20 minute AT test I was unable to do Micro bust but could do another standard AT interval. Going by atheletes power meter down load, the IF for the MB intervals was close to one, .997 and 1.008. So what would quantify the difference?

Quadrant analysis would give you some insight into the differences here.

Alex Simmons said:

Hi Andy/frenchyge
Does this impact NP and TSS for a session of sprint training where efforts are <30s duration? e.g. I just did 3 x 15s standing starts and 8 x 200m flys.

It would seem I am getting fair credit for it (CP says 109 TSS points for the session). Session included a warm up of 26min at 0.8 IF and the efforts above - anything else was just rolling around the track with no effort at all although each sprint had a rolling start of a couple of laps at a recovery power level.

I am curious as to what others think about their TSS from sprint training.

I just want to understand my overall training load and the impact this type of training has on the TSS. I like objective measures, as long as I am confident that they work.

Well, in terms of the normalized power (and hence the IF, which enters into the calculation of TSS) you're getting "credit" for those hard efforts to the extent that they increase the 30 s rolling average values, which are then raised to the 4th power. Now are you getting "fair credit"? I would argue that the fact that the normalized power algorithm tends to be pretty robust across a wide spectrum of workouts and raises suggests that you are...

The other thing I might add is that my wife did a lot of training similar to what you describe (i.e., the typical trackie's life of a few short, superhard efforts interspersed with a lot of rolling around) when peaking for the pursuit. In terms of the average TSS/d, the maximum training load that she seemed to be able to handle when training this way was quite comparable to the maximum she could tolerate when doing up to 24 h/wk of level 2/3/4. Others (e.g., Dave Harris) report similar observations. Thus, in that regard the TSS calculation seems to work quite well across a fairly broad range of activities as well (note that the same can't be said for TRIMP, which doesn't work for activities that entail training at >100% of VO2max).

WarrenG said:

How well do you handle all those accelerations? Do you train to do all those accelerations? Do you want to be better at all those accelerations? A higher cadence (less resistance) may help you the most in the short-term.

WarrenG

I seem to handle them fine. I have been doing mostly steady state during the off season. I race MTB. I have added MBs due to fact that MTB races are not TTs, they are constant acceleration/ deceleration, at lower cadences and Higher torque. My post was not a how to but a why, in regards to NP and AP.

Thanks,

Jeff

acoggan said:

Quadrant analysis would give you some insight into the differences here.

Insights yes. But, how would we quatify the added trainig stress with IF, TSS or something esle. Or do you think that the Training stress for MBs of the same duration and AP/NP as a steady state interval would be the same?

acoggan said:

Well, in terms of the normalized power (and hence the IF, which enters into the calculation of TSS) you're getting "credit" for those hard efforts to the extent that they increase the 30 s rolling average values, which are then raised to the 4th power. Now are you getting "fair credit"? I would argue that the fact that the normalized power algorithm tends to be pretty robust across a wide spectrum of workouts and raises suggests that you are...

The other thing I might add is that my wife did a lot of training similar to what you describe (i.e., the typical trackie's life of a few short, superhard efforts interspersed with a lot of rolling around) when peaking for the pursuit. In terms of the average TSS/d, the maximum training load that she seemed to be able to handle when training this way was quite comparable to the maximum she could tolerate when doing up to 24 h/wk of level 2/3/4. Others (e.g., Dave Harris) report similar observations. Thus, in that regard the TSS calculation seems to work quite well across a fairly broad range of activities as well (note that the same can't be said for TRIMP, which doesn't work for activities that entail training at >100% of VO2max).

Thanks Andy

jetnjeff said:

WarrenG

I seem to handle them fine. I have been doing mostly steady state during the off season. I race MTB. I have added MBs due to fact that MTB races are not TTs, they are constant acceleration/ deceleration, at lower cadences and Higher torque. My post was not a how to but a why, in regards to NP and AP.

Thanks,

Jeff

You said they have a higher PE than steady-state even though, with only 15 second rests there are many similarities. For a MTB or criterium racer I'd suggest these MB's too, and/or some that are up to 30/30. All those accelerations need some decent muscle strength. IME, if you do some training for that, like SFR/low-cadence high resistance you will improve the strength that allows you to handle all those acclerations very well and when you can do this the intervals are not as hard so you can use higher power for them, and/or do more of them. This has helped me a lot.

jetnjeff said:

do you think that the Training stress for MBs of the same duration and AP/NP as a steady state interval would be the same?

Well, the scientific studies of the topic say that it should be. That is, with the exception of the fiber type recruitment pattern, steady-state and 15 s on/off intervals performed at the same average power result in essentially the same physiological responses (e.g., glycogen and intramuscular triglyceride utilization, high energy phosphate levels, muscle and blood lactate concentration, whole body VO2 and RER, etc.).

So, what is the appropriate intensity for 15 sec or 30 sec on/off intervals?
How many reps is appropriate?

Can someone provide a sample workout?

Thanks!
Pat🙂

falls_alot said:

So, what is the appropriate intensity for 15 sec or 30 sec on/off intervals?
How many reps is appropriate?

Can someone provide a sample workout?

Thanks!
Pat🙂

That depends on what you're trying to accomplish/improve with them.

WarrenG said:

That depends on what you're trying to accomplish/improve with them.

I'm trying to increase the ability to accelerate out of corners in crits.

falls_alot said:

I'm trying to increase the ability to accelerate out of corners in crits.

For me, this is typically 7-8w/kg repeated 4-6 times every two minutes on a flat course. Are you sure this is your weakness instead of FTP or technique (conservation of momentum/drafting maximized or braking too much)?

Woofer said:

For me, this is typically 7-8w/kg repeated 4-6 times every two minutes on a flat course. Are you sure this is your weakness instead of FTP or technique (conservation of momentum/drafting maximized or braking too much)?

Agree. If one's crit power profile resembles a 15s on-off routine, then there's probably some room for improvement in the technique department.

falls_alot said:

I'm trying to increase the ability to accelerate out of corners in crits.

Here's what I've used for good results with that.

Once a week. Start with a 10" sprint in a smallish gear like 53x18/17, recover easy for 50", repeat for a total of 5 times. Rest for 5'. Repeat for a total of three blocks. You can alternate blocks of seated accelerations in 39x14 or so, with standing sprints. Just get the gear up to 100+ rpm's or so and hold that for the remainder of the effort.

Each week or so, add a minute to each block or another block. For example, 3x8', then 4 x7'. When you get to a total of 30 or so accelerations you can go back to 3 x 6' or so using 20" seated accelerations with 40" rest. Work back up to about 25 accelerations.

By the time you get to this point you're probably racing every weekend and sprinting out of corners is no longer much of a concern so the focus can turn more towards VO2max training with a similar format.

For this you can use a 30" acceleration to about 110-130% of your VO2max power and hold that to the end, then 30" rest. You may want to start these with 2 x 5' and progress to somewhere around 3x8'-10'. To make them even more specific for VO2max you can go to higher power, and/or make them 35" on/25" off. Right before peak I progress to doing these as 40" on/20" off and 30"/30" and the power is around 180-200% of Vo2max power, but your objectives may not be for points races like mine are, so lower power may be better.